Ep. 250: the playbook

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Right. I've said. I've said plenty of times, and I. And I maintain it, and I will say it again, that the position with which you and I are blessed to sit within the unfolding of the end times is the weirdest kind of privilege, isn't it? Don't you think? [00:00:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's not the word I'd use, but sure, yeah, go on. [00:00:25] Speaker A: It is, Corey, it is. And I'll. I'll say this and defend this position. I really think it is a privilege in the same way as. Ah, man, to just to sit and watch a mushroom cloud explode and know that these seconds, these fucking final seconds before the shockwave hits, you are gonna kill you. That kind of window of certain approaching terror, that is such a privilege. I find that to be a privilege. [00:00:58] Speaker B: I find that's like. That's the opposite. That's the thing I least want to happen to me. I do not ever want to see whatever kills me coming. I would prefer it to sneak up on me, you know, get me execution style. I don't. I don't want to, you know, if things coming. [00:01:17] Speaker A: If I'm ever. If I'm ever in a guillotine, put me looking up, man. Put my face looking up at the blade. [00:01:24] Speaker B: No bag. Let's. Let's do this. [00:01:25] Speaker A: I'm. You know what I mean that if. If I'm ever in the contraption, I want my fucking head facing up. I want to see it drop. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Because, I mean, I guess if you're. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Already there, you may. Yeah, you may as well make the best of it, see it all coming. But I, of course, I really do think that's where we are. Right? And one of the big parts of that privilege, to me, one of the most exciting things about it, and for exciting, read fucking horrible and dreadful as fuck, is watching the patterns repeat themselves. Right. And you spoke of this when we spoke about the Jewish Diaspora and colonialist roots in the playbook. You know what I mean? How the US is following the playbook, Israel is following the playbook. It's all just following. It's all unfolding according to the design, right? [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yes. To be clear, that made it sound like you're saying, like, oh, the Jews, they're part of the colonial project. [00:02:34] Speaker A: I'm talking about the displacement. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Israel. Yes. [00:02:37] Speaker A: You know what I mean? [00:02:38] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:02:39] Speaker A: I'm talking about the stealing of land. That's just one example. That's just one example of the end unfolding according to the plan. Right? Right. According to the fucking. The schematics that others have laid down before the method of engineering our own demise. Because all within our gift, it's all our own fucking doing. Engineering our own demise using plans that have already been laid out before us by other players. Fascinating to me. Fascinating to me, sure. And as time moves on, as we become more air quotes, advanced in our technologies, in the methods of delivering our own demise. It's super interesting, super interesting to get out the yarn, to connect the dots. Right. To put the photos up on the board and just. Okay, so that's just like how that happened. That's just how that happened. I'm a dad. Right. [00:03:43] Speaker B: It's true. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Can't argue with that. [00:03:45] Speaker B: Yep. [00:03:46] Speaker A: I'm a dad. There are other parents around. I'm also, I think it's safe to say I'm not above admitting it. I'm also someone who is given to a. A certain addictive quality to my nature. [00:04:01] Speaker B: Yes, definitely. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Right. And I watch and I see the screen, man, the screen time. I see the screen time. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:15] Speaker A: And I am someone. I know I've said this before on the podcast, but I'm somebody who is personally quite aware of my own screen time. Yes, I am delighted to report that it's coming down. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, obviously, being in your reading. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Era, I'm in my book era, of. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Course, and being very. Yeah, you've said recently you're like trying. [00:04:39] Speaker A: To think and it's working. [00:04:40] Speaker B: It's working. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Every week my iPhone gives a report. Your average screen time when this device was xxx. It is coming down. It is coming down. Not slowly either. It's dipping quite sharply over these last few weeks, which I'm delighted about. Right, delighted. But it might be of interest. [00:05:03] Speaker B: To. [00:05:03] Speaker A: You, Corey, and to our listeners, the millions and millions of our listeners across the universe, to just explore some of the methods at play here, because can there be anything more disgusting, can there be anything darker than a species that profits from its own suffering? Can you think of anything more fucking horrific than that? [00:05:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a. That's a toughie. [00:05:38] Speaker A: I mean, can there be anything darker than a species which finds its own chemical triggers and finds its own psychological weak points and then works out how to fucking leverage them and push them and make them fucking worse? Knowingly make them worse, completely consciously make them fucking worse and cause their own fucking kin and brethren pain and medical fucking suffering and hardship and cost to make a profit? [00:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Can there be anything worse? And when I talk about the Playbook, it's happened in so many different ways before now, before, you know, before attention and Focus was the currency. It's happened time and time again. I mean, I'll talk to you a little bit about. Hey, I used to enjoy a cigarette, right? [00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. My. My dear little sister, she spends a lot of time on our back porch. [00:06:46] Speaker A: Does she like a cigarette? [00:06:48] Speaker B: She does, yes, indeed. My whole family. I'm the only one who isn't or wasn't ever a smoker. Just me. I'm the only one. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Well, I didn't know that. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Yep. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Well. Well, then, this one's for you. Right. [00:07:03] Speaker B: This one goes out to Ed. [00:07:05] Speaker A: Ed, smoke them up if you got em, mate. Light up a dart and come with me. Super briefly, to add it to the. To the 1950s. To the 50s or 60s, right? Late 50s and 60s. What if I told you that in the US, in the 50s, some fucking almost 60% of men smoked in the UK? In the UK, it was even higher. 75% of adult men. 75% of men smoked between the 50s and 60s. [00:07:38] Speaker B: Popping out of the mines for a cigarette. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Exactly this. Exactly this. Coughing up the fucking coal dust and then tapping a winston and just smoking a dart. So the tobacco industry were working from a pretty already well established user base, right? [00:07:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:01] Speaker A: And it was known, it was clearly known within the tobacco industry that nicotine is an addictive substance, Right? Right. Totally. Clearly. And it is. It is nicotine. It takes, it takes what, 10 seconds to cling on to those receptors in your brain to give you that dopamine burst. 10 seconds. And executives knew this. I'm gonna quote from a 1963 memo, right, from Brown Williamson. Who? The big American tobacco company. Nicotine is addictive. This is a quote. Nicotine is addictive. We are then in the business of selling nicotine, an addictive drug. Cigarettes were just the delivery mechanism, right? Nicotine was the product that the tobacco industry was selling. And to that end, to deliver more of it, the tobacco industry adapted the fucking product to deliver more nicotine per cigarette. Adding with the ph balance of the tobacco, adding ammonia to increase the alkalinity of smoke. Right. Adding ammonia to increase the alkalinity, converting fucking salt nicotine into free base nicotine. A process. A process not unlike the manufacture of crack cocaine, right? [00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Mm. [00:09:44] Speaker A: A freebase. Nicotine just blasts through that fucking blood brain barrier and almost weaponized a cigarette into a rapid fucking instant dopamine injection system. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Jesus. [00:10:00] Speaker A: All through the 60s, there was also research into the kinds of paper that was used. Does it burn at exactly the right rate for optimum kind of nicotine release? [00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Conveyance. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Exactly this targeting Targeting new smokers. Targeting smokers. Another quote from a scientist who worked for Philip Morris, a Dr. William Dunn. The cigarette should be conceived not as a product but as a package. The product is nicotine. Think of the cigarette as a storage container for a day's supply of nicotine, menthol, sugar based kind of flavorants, flavors, tastes, delivery mechanisms. And yet, and yet in 1994, in 19 fucking 94, there were seven US tobacco company CEOs. Seven who testified under oath in front of a fucking hearing. I believe nicotine is not addictive. Right? [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:17] Speaker A: Incredible shit. Incredible shit. But think of the playbook, right? Think of the playbook. [00:11:24] Speaker B: It, it's so crazy to me with that because obviously we talked about, I think this was something about climate change that we talked about at one point. Yeah. And I had likened it to the cigarette thing where it's like, you know, they pay off to major scientists to say, oh no, it's actually healthy for you or whatever. There's no signs that there's cancer or whatever. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:50] Speaker B: And you know, that's it. That sews enough doubt that they can continue to keep doing what they're doing, you know. Well, we've got these two guys that we paid $8 million to say this is, you know, to do a research study and they didn't find that it was addictive. So y. Who can say really? [00:12:16] Speaker A: So think of the playbook. Deny, refine, deliver, profit. Let's talk sugar. Why don't we talk about sugar? Think of the playbook. Think of the playbook. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Also, just as a side note to this too, by the way, with the, the nicotine thing. [00:12:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:39] Speaker B: And the repackaging and all this kind of stuff. What's the, what's the cure for smoking addiction? [00:12:46] Speaker A: The cure, you say? [00:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah. How do you stop smoking? [00:12:49] Speaker A: Oh, you simply decide not to. You simply don't do it. [00:12:51] Speaker B: No. You wear a nicotine patch. They've monetized the cure by giving you more. Exact same thing. Yeah. Nicotine gum, nicotine patch. Right. They managed to rebrands the same thing. Right. That's why like anti smoking campaigns are like run by Philip Morris. They're like, oh, stop smoking. You don't want to do that. But here's a little patch that we also make that can help you of course with quitting it. [00:13:23] Speaker A: So go on, sugar, let's talk sugar. Let's talk sugar again. Let's follow the playbook. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Here. [00:13:32] Speaker A: We're gonna go to the 60s, right. 1967, to a guy by the name of John Hickson, who Directed something known as the Sugar Research Foundation. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Right, okay. [00:13:46] Speaker A: To try and counter negative public perceptions towards sugar buying science, paying for science. This guy and his foundation paid Harvard scientists something like what would be 50 grand today to write a review which went into the New England Journal of Medicine. Right. A review which completely whitewashed sugar's role in heart disease, moving the blame completely to saturated fats. [00:14:25] Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker A: It ain't the sugar, it's the fat, the science, the delivery mechanism. Right. Then in the 80s and towards the end of the end of the 70s and 80s, you've got a physicist, a psychophysicist, psychophysics, just like we spoke about a couple of weeks ago. Guy by the name of Howard Moskovitz, he. What if I told you he came up with something known as the bliss point? Ooh, is that a term you've heard before? [00:15:00] Speaker B: No, I've never heard that. [00:15:01] Speaker A: The bliss point. It is a level of. It does sound nice, doesn't it? Sounds blissful. [00:15:06] Speaker B: In fact, I'd love to be there. [00:15:09] Speaker A: He was part of a group who found the absolute breaking point where something becomes too sweet. So you stop eating, or not quite sweet enough, leaving you not coming back if it is perfectly, perfectly sweet. This perfect kind of amalgam between sweetness and fattiness became known as the bliss point. Balanced with salt and fat, the stop signal in your brain, the neurophysics in your brain are delayed and overridden and facilitates, quote, passive over consumption. Fun, delicious, right? Buy the science, pay and fucking optimize delivery. Create the fucking problem in your own species to enable you to continue getting paid. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, that also makes me think of like, it's been. I think it was around like the 80s that they started, like, putting high fructose corn syrup in things and whatnot. And I was. I was reading about this the other day that again, it's like, you know, it's for one thing, cheap. You can just grow like insane amounts of corn. That's what the entire Midwest of the United States is now a huge monoculture of corn. But also amongst the things that, you know, has happened as a result of this is as, you know, I can't eat a lot of fruit, right. Because I have fructose malabsorption problems. And that comes from. For. They've found that that's. [00:16:49] Speaker A: You're being honest there, though. That is true. Yes. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, yeah. That's the reason that, like, if I eat like a raw apple, it feels like someone is cutting their way out of my stomach with a knife. It's like, I thought everyone did this. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, apples. You know, I've mentioned it before that I thought, you know, there's like the dietary advice that they say, oh, eat an apple half hour before breakfast and you won't eat as much. And I thought the reason for that was like, oh, yeah, it's because, like, it feels like there are razor blades in your stomach so you won't eat as much. [00:17:17] Speaker A: You know, I don't think we've talked anywhere near enough about quite what a specimen you are. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Right. One in three people have this. [00:17:27] Speaker A: You can't eat it out. You can't remember a cow, for fuck's sake. And you can't eat an apple. [00:17:33] Speaker B: Right, I can't eat an apple. But it turns out this used to be rare, but because of the amount of high fructose corn syrup that's now in every single thing that we eat. [00:17:44] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. [00:17:45] Speaker B: One in three people, it turns out, has a some level of fructose malabsorption. [00:17:50] Speaker A: Fascinating. [00:17:51] Speaker B: And again, this is one of those things that like, there's constant, you know, scientific fights over and things like that. It's totally fine. There's no issue with this whatsoever. And meanwhile, a third of the population like, can't eat a pear because we put so much high fructose corn syrup and stuff. [00:18:10] Speaker A: Absolutely fascinating. I'm. I can't put my finger on it right now, but I'm certain, I read during putting this together, that HFCS is used not just because it's easier economically, so beneficial, but it delivers the, you know, it delivers the payload a lot quicker and a lot more efficiently. But let me ask you, Corrigan, let me ask you. Who do you think the monetization of this, a reward cycle, the bliss point, economically, socially, geographically, who do you think is suffering from this? [00:18:51] Speaker B: I must say, like, poor, poor people. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Where do you think high fucking high sugar, high processed calorie dense foods are most prevalent? They're the cheaper, they're more made, you know, more, more highly available than neighborhoods. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Like mine, for one, where we don't have grocery store, you know, and in my town at least, like, we don't. There's also no fast food. So. So, you know, that's not as much of an issue. But in places like this, normally where there are poor folks, you know, you might have a corner store or something like that, but you don't have, you don't have a grocery store. What you often will have, and they do this intentionally, is McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, of course, things like that. And your corner store is going to have your Hostess cakes and your bimbo bread filled with sugar and things like that. It's not going to have you your super healthy options for things. It's gonna have cheap sugar filled snacks and all the cigarettes behind the counter that you could possibly want. So certainly areas like mine that are intentional, like food deserts full of poor people. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Food deserts, that's exactly the fucking term. Can there be anything darker than a people turning their own fucking nutritional fucking supply chain onto its own people as a fucking profit making tool. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:21] Speaker A: Stoking of fires of ill health and poverty and sickness and disease. Even even though. Back to smoking super briefly. Even though smoking rates have plummeted. Absolutely plummeted in my lifetime. [00:20:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean the advertising is just not allowed anywhere. [00:20:38] Speaker A: That helps. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:39] Speaker A: And right. Rightly so. But I mean two it's, it's a rough two and a half billion every year is still costs our health service. Incredible, incredible stuff. Speaking of which, speaking of which. The playbook right by the science deliver the product opioids. I'm not going to speak for too long on this, but incredible that this was, you know, this seems very much a family affair, you know, a family kind of business strategy. Lots has been said about the Sackler family, about Purdue Pharma, about OxyContin that incredibly well known. 2001 response when reports of OxyContin abuse started to become widespread. Absolutely incredible. We have to hammer on the abusers in every way possible. They are the culprits and the problem. They are the reckless criminals. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Ah there. My hometown in Massachusetts, Greenfield was. Had such a huge problem with opioids that Anthony Bourdain actually did an episode on it. [00:21:57] Speaker A: Good God. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Went to Greenfield and you know, and famously my older brother who was on heroin held up a, a cafe. [00:22:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:11] Speaker B: With a syringe claiming there was AIDS in the syringe and ended up in jail for, you know, I think almost a decade. How's he doing as a result of this? Oh, he's an asshole, but he's fine. [00:22:22] Speaker A: Okay, good, good, good. [00:22:25] Speaker B: But you know, it was hugely prevalent in my area and it really does. I mean it's a working class town. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:35] Speaker B: And as anyone who knows anything about this stuff comes. It came from people being prescribed in high numbers these pain relievers and then getting cut off from them and having to find that feeling elsewhere because you experience so much pain and so much craving and things like that without them. Yes. And you know, the response from the US Medical industry was not to create some sort of way for people to slowly detox from these things or anything, but to create the idea of drug seeking behavior. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Fucking hell. The exact term used is pseudo addiction. [00:23:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Pseudo addiction. Again, buying the science. A guy hired by Purdue Pharmaceutical, a guy by the name of Dr. David Haddocks, pushes this concept of pseudo addiction. This idea that drug seeking behavior, hey, that actually lends itself to the idea that a patient would need more opioids, not less. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:41] Speaker A: The fact that you've, you're fucking jonesing for it and you're fucking, you know, that you're hooked. Nah, nah, nah, nah. It's not an addiction. It's a pseudo addiction. It means you need more to wean you, you know, to dial you up. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Well, and what they eventually did was make it so that because people with this pain and with this addiction or pseudo addiction were drug seekers. They made it so that you can't get that pain medication a lot of the time anymore. And so people would go from, you know, their doctor prescribed them incredible amounts of this stuff to then going in and being like, oh, you're a drug seeker. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, no more for you. And that, you know, you think of all these like family, you know, family men who were working in construction and like, that were like, heroin, I'd really like to start doing heroin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that worked. You know, this was a thing that happened because they had immense pain and were addicted to a highly addictive substance. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:47] Speaker B: And instead of any form of trying to like, help them with that, give them something else, you know, try to do any form of rehabilitation. Because we know our medical system does not cover that kind of thing. Yeah, they just kind of like, we're like, we'll just put them in jail instead. They're a bunch of criminals. And that has had incredible repercussions in terms of, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people dead from the opioid crisis in America as a result. [00:25:21] Speaker A: And that while that, that level of kind of mortality hasn't translated to the uk, our problem, I mean, we still have huge benzodiazepine issues, but, you know, the, the addiction and the mortality that you talk about is a direct result of bought and paid for shitty science. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [00:25:51] Speaker A: Fucking bought and paid for shitty science. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Get them off the hook for. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:25:56] Speaker B: And intentionally. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Exactly. This a report bought and paid for by Purdue that looked at addiction in inpatients. Addiction to OxyContin, opioid pain relief in inpatients, stated Addiction is rare in patients who receive narcotics. That specific line was stripped out of the report and used as the basis for OxyContin's safety. This, this over 600 times that one line was cited to justify to GPS who it was marketed to. Marketed to. To justify the give it to your patients. No problem. Addiction is rare in patients who receive narcotics. Yeah. In fucking hospital, right. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Under deep supervision. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Small amounts like taking away the methodology of this and all of the context for it makes a huge difference. You know, if you give it to someone like me, who it makes no difference for, just makes me feel like throwing up. Like fine. You got to account for all those sorts of variables. Like it's crazy that, yeah, they'll just take, take the one thing that fits and that that's it. Which also, you know, I think this as someone who is a teacher, right? [00:27:15] Speaker A: Yes. [00:27:16] Speaker B: One of the things that I remember when I was in undergrad is that I asked a history professor a Civil War question and it was a real deep cut, right? Like something that was like very specialized knowledge. And he said to me, he was like, you know, I'm not a Civil War historian. I teach a Civil War course. I read books about it. Right. Like, but I am not deep in archives of Civil War history all the time, right? [00:27:46] Speaker A: Yep. [00:27:46] Speaker B: It's like that's how it works as a professor. You're not assigned a whole bunch of courses that you're an expert in. You have your field and then other things you have to, you know, sort of become a jack of all trades in. Right. And that's the same with doctors, right? Most of them are not pharmacologists, of course. Right. [00:28:04] Speaker A: They, they say they some through books. They fucking Google shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Like I had a terrible like rash situation when I was in high school that covered like my entire body. Wow. Right. And I remember the doctor was like, huh, okay. And then left the room and came back with printouts. And it was like, it looks like you have this thing called bitteriasis rosea, Christmas tree shaped rash on your back. And you know, there's a mother rash spot and things like that. That's what it is. And that's how doctors like learn things. They look it up when they need it. And so if a company is like, hey, you know, here's the science behind this, we've printed it out for you. It's right here. Like that's how they get their information is, you know, the study given to them by the company that gave them the medication to sell. [00:29:04] Speaker A: Of course all mortal. Point is. Yeah, selling. Selling the medication. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Yeah, they're selling the medication. Medication specifically with these ones. We know there were a lot of kickbacks involved with that and whatnot. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Of course. And, and much. Hey, same way as in the nicotine example. Same ways in the sugar example. Oxycontin is then tweaked, made better extended release coatings. Hey, we've made it safe, don't worry. You can't, you can't. You know, you take it, it releases over eight hours. You know, there's a particular example in nicotine where cigarettes filters were redesigned to have like air vents around the outside. Right. Thus giving the idea that. Oh, hang on, this is diluting the smoke. This is a safer product. The only thing it did was make people smoke more, right? [00:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, it's a filtered cigarette. It's fine. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Provably, the only thing it made people do was smoke harder, right? [00:30:01] Speaker B: Mm. [00:30:01] Speaker A: This extended release coding on oxycontin, it just. You could just crush it the fuck up and get the entire thing in one go, you know. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:11] Speaker A: You change the product but you enhance and weaponize the mode of delivery. The playbook stays the same. It's incredible how similar the playbook is across these three industries. Incredible. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:30:26] Speaker A: So from our vantage point now, right from where we're sat now and what is happening all around us now, let's talk a little bit more about social media and short form video. Right? [00:30:40] Speaker B: Oh gosh, please. Because this was, this was really interesting. My, my in laws never had Internet at home. Yeah, right. And so they would go down to the bakery and like watch his. My father in law would have like Fox News on and then later you know, to get real extreme newsmax and then like Oanna o a n n like all those kinds of stuff on in the bakery. Getting inundated with like all of that shit 24 7. They go home, they don't have that anymore right now they have Internet. They get like YouTube and his dad gets like, like, like Owen likes the YouTube shorts, right? [00:31:19] Speaker A: He does, yes he does. Which is just an on ramp to TikTok, right? [00:31:24] Speaker B: Kyo's dad will never figure out Tic TAC TikTok. He's 80. But, but I overhear the things. And now you've got like just shorts, constant shorts that he's going through of like these like bits of just like insane unhinged political information. Just the most unhinged bits. Because it's the part they clipped out of the show, right? The part they really want. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Of course the 45 second. [00:31:53] Speaker B: Like, here's the, you know, immigrants raping everybody. Kinds of like clips of stuff. They're eating the dogs, Right, Exactly. All of that stuff just in quick succession. [00:32:03] Speaker A: So in exactly the same way as the nicotine industry has. We, as we've seen, they knew all along that nicotine was the. The product, not the cigarette. Right. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal 2021 from that. Was it Frances Haugen, Was that the lady who wrote the book? Is that her? [00:32:25] Speaker B: The lady who wrote the book? [00:32:27] Speaker A: What was the book called? The Facebook book. The book about Facebook. The Facebook book. [00:32:31] Speaker B: The one about the careless people or. [00:32:34] Speaker A: Yes. Is that what it was called? Yes. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Was that the one that's like, about, like the woman who, like, worked? [00:32:40] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Is that not her name? [00:32:43] Speaker B: I don't think that was her name. [00:32:44] Speaker A: Well, then this is someone entirely different, in that case, Wall Street. [00:32:48] Speaker B: That name doesn't sound familia. [00:32:51] Speaker A: A lady. An ex Meta employee by the name of Frances Haugen leaked some files to the Wall Street Journal, one of which had a slide, an internal fucking slide from meta themselves in 2019. Quote, we make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls, right? Quote, they know. They fucking know. [00:33:14] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. Yeah. [00:33:16] Speaker A: So internally, the companies know all about it. Follow the fucking playbook. Second part of the playbook, you weaponize the product. So we all saw in our lifetimes, right? The move from it was. It was very, very quick. That happened when social media seems to move less from a place of, you know, hey, likes, thumbs ups, love, hearts, social validation. More on prediction, more on what's coming next. So you get your dopamine not from seeing your friends, liking your stuff and sharing stuff with your friends. You get your dopamine by almost the next thing that you like, the next thing you like, the next thing you like, right? And there are a few people who absolutely have weaponized this. The guy who founded ByteDance, which was tick Tock, it was his work. A guy by the name of Zhang Yiming moved things away from what he called the social graph. So it's not who you know that's less efficient for maintaining your retention than the interest graph, what you watch. So it has less to do with who you see and more about what you watch, right? Then there's a feature known as the infant Scroll. A guy by the name of Azar Raskin, who now he went on. He went on to create a benevolent fucking tech awareness fund, but he designed. He is credited here with designing the mechanism that automatically loads the next thing you're gonna see, right. [00:35:00] Speaker B: Fuck that guy. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Motherfucker. The infinite scroll. And since then. [00:35:05] Speaker B: Since then. [00:35:05] Speaker A: Since then, he's fucking apologized. By his. By his estimation, right, that feature, the infinite scroll. Having the next thing ready to go wastes what he reckons is 200,000 human lifetimes per day. [00:35:22] Speaker B: Jesus Christ. Yeah, I mean, I fully buy that. This is. I. My perspective on these kinds of things is like, these are things that I am not susceptible to and not because of a, like, moral reason or anything like that. It's because I hate it. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:42] Speaker B: You know, like. And so I understand that. I'm like, what they've created here in most brains. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Is. Is meant to, like, tweak all the right things in there to fucking keep you going. And this every time I, like, see someone, like, start using, like, TikTok or something like that, I'm like, no, yeah. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Don'T do it, lest I be labeled a hypocrite. Right. Let me be fucking clear as I can be here. I'm not talking here from a position of somebody who doesn't use social media and does and hates it. I fucking. I love it. I love it. Reels get. I enjoy the social parts, but this is exactly it. The infinite scroll. What's the name of the foundation that he's gone on to? [00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to know about that. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Azaraskin. He has created something known as the center for Humane Technology. Yes, indeed. And he's also founded something called the Earth Species Project. [00:36:49] Speaker B: He appears atoning. [00:36:51] Speaker A: He appears to be very, very sorry for what he's done. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Well, and you know the programmers who create things like this. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Someone else would have done it. Like, you know, people were looking for that kind of thing. They're not trying to do something evil. [00:37:07] Speaker A: You make a great. [00:37:08] Speaker B: You know, that's not, you know, it's not like, you know, not everyone's Sam Altman, right, Like, who are intentionally trying to create something that is destructive to humanity, you know, and to the Earth. Right. People are creating things. They're like, yeah, you know, this could be useful in some way. You know, it turns out I can't. [00:37:34] Speaker A: See an angle here. We're creating something that removes the stop signal. Right. [00:37:44] Speaker B: If you didn't know what that does, right. Like, that can be, like, useful. Like when you're watching Hulu or something like that, and your show ends and it goes into the next thing, like, goes into the next episode. Like, that's useful. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't. You know, it isn't necessarily a Thing that you think like, oh, this is gonna like click on some addictive center in people's brains and they're not going to be able to stop. You would probably think, oh, they'll, it'll give them things that they like. And then when they're done, they'll stop watching it instead of like, oh, they will stop being able. They will never be done. [00:38:23] Speaker A: There's another big feature as well, which the creator has expressed regret over the pull down to refresh mechanic. Yeah. Credited by Lauren Brichter who has also since expressed regret. Yeah, I have two kids now and I regret every minute that I'm not paying attention to them because my smartphone has sucked me in. That's two of the three people responsible for what we see on our short form video apps, right? Going, ah, fuck yeah. [00:38:54] Speaker B: That one get. That gets me on like blue sky because they started. They make it a different color now if there is like, so you have a little arrow that you can go to the top of your feed if you want. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yep. [00:39:06] Speaker B: And if there are new posts, that little arrow turns blue. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:39:11] Speaker B: And it's like, oh, pull down. There's your new things. I'm like, ah, I don't need to. [00:39:18] Speaker A: I should stop without even, without even mentioning AI here. Right? Because I, you know, the playbook, I am certain is the same. I right now, right fucking now, I am certain that in the offices of OpenAI and somewhere in the Google building there is evidence that we've seen that MIT article from a few weeks back. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Yeah, Sam Altman has talked about this stuff like openly on stage that like he knows his is causing people to kill themselves and stuff like that. He's aware, it's not a secret. He knows that's happening. He just deeply does not care. [00:39:57] Speaker A: I think this feels, I mean the, the second phase of the Playbook is, is well in motion. You know, knowledge and weaponization. The bits that follow are tragedy and fucking litigation and recrimination and rolling back. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:40:18] Speaker A: But that's again, what a privilege. What a privilege to be able to see. What a privilege to be able to see this unfolding right in front of us, right before our fucking eyes. What a treat. [00:40:32] Speaker B: I think it's just, it's such a bummer to me because I think, you know, that's a silly way of putting it, but we, you know, especially me being like, you know, pretty much the classic elder millennial. Right. But you as well being just a little bit older, 47, kind of just, you know, 47 heading towards 50. Like being in that Cusp era. Right. Of being like, you know, I was talking to my father in law about this. That when I was in middle school, we were in that in between time where like typewriters obviously weren't a thing, but not everyone had a computer. So we were expected to hand write all our essays. Yeah, right. Like by high school you could just go to the library, print things out. But. And then moving into social media and things like that. And I was an early adopter of everything. I had lifejournal, I had friendster, I had, you know, all those kinds of things. [00:41:34] Speaker A: None of which comes as a shock. [00:41:36] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. And I still have friends like eileen. [00:41:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:41] Speaker B: From LiveJournal 25 years ago. Right. Like, I used these socially. And then when it came to things, you know, I started. My favorite search engine was Dogpile. When I was young, I had a favorite search engine because Google wasn't the only thing you used. But. And we all had like, which one we thought had better, you know, systems and things like that. And it was like I could get information, you know, and had all this stuff open to me. And as things progressed, you know, I always was very positive about all of it. You know, like, ultimately this is, this is good for us. And to watch all of that, like, because of this playbook go from like, it's not that the technology itself was inherently bad or that this was inevitable, but that everything got into corporate hands and no one reigned it in, the governments allowed it. And now it's so hard to have any of that stuff. Right. Like, I think I still have a good sense of how to use these things based on. Because I was such an early adopter. [00:42:53] Speaker A: I still have plenty of online friends who I gained during message boards, you know, from message boards. [00:43:00] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [00:43:01] Speaker A: Still people. [00:43:02] Speaker B: And I think, like, I know how to make friends online. Like, I feel like I have a lot of friends on Blue sky and things like that. And you see like this constant struggle on things like Blue sky where there's like all these folks who joined because they think, like, what's social media for? It's for yelling about Trump and things like that. And they get mad that people are talking about like wrestling or like birds or things in their lives like, what are you doing? This should be for this. And it's like, no, I'm using it the way I've used it for 30 years of my life. I use Facebook and I go on our groups and stuff like that. I don't, I don't use TikTok I don't use any of that stuff. And I think, like, for me, I do a lot of filtering of the toxicity based on. I want the experience that I've been having for all this time. But if you are just getting on the Internet now, that didn't exist. [00:43:47] Speaker A: That's what you think it is. I'm in the early stages of. I'm in the early stages and I'm already fucking loving a book that I got for Christmas last week by Tim Berners Lee, a guy who invented the Internet. And it's. Again, I'm not far in, but it's detailing what he fucking invented it for. [00:44:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:09] Speaker A: Which is to. Which is to bring information together, you know, and to allow people to kind of seamlessly and without friction share documents, information, images, systems, ways of working to fucking unite. It was designed to bring things together. [00:44:30] Speaker B: You know, and to see that because of corporate interference, yes, become something else. Because of the, you know, like, everyone on the Internet was never going to agree or anything like that. But the toxic hellhole it is was not. That was not inevitable. That was the process of intentionally, algorithmically manipulating paid for doubt. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Designed specifically to make it, make it. What's the word I'm looking for? Make it, make it, make it, make it. Poisonous, I guess. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:45:05] Speaker A: If you do too much of anything, it becomes poisonous. And that's what has become of the Internet now that it's four fucking apps. [00:45:12] Speaker B: That you don't owned by the same. [00:45:14] Speaker A: People that you don't even fucking realize. You know my favorite thing, I said this to Alan the other day, my brother. My favorite thing is, don't know if you've ever done this, is closing an app and then immediately opening it again accidentally. [00:45:27] Speaker B: I did that with Instagram earlier today. Closed it and then opened it. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Was like, what the fuck? Who has done this to me? [00:45:33] Speaker B: You know, it hasn't even had time to reload. And it's the same thing. [00:45:38] Speaker A: Just close that thing. Oh, open it again. How? I. I didn't consciously do that. What fucking forces are working on me that have made me just fucking do that? [00:45:46] Speaker B: It's like reaching for another cigarette, you know, an app instead. And then you don't know what time it is by the time you put it back in your pocket, like, you know, all of this stuff is. Yeah, it's designed like this. And unfortunately they've figured out, you know, the people who design this stuff have figured out that making us mad, making us hate each other, giving us disinformation, all that kind of stuff is keeps People going, keeps coming back. Yeah, it keeps you coming back. And. And now, like, Tick Tock is about to be bought by the CBS guy, which friends get off. Tick Tock. That's it. That's. That's the. That's the line. You cannot. That guy. Yeah, he's the one who owns Paramount. That's why I canceled Paramount, even though it's my favorite streaming service. It cut me to my core. But it's a. It's a Trump surrogate. And, you know, they're whole thing is fomenting transphobia, promoting Israel, like, there. It's evil. He's deeply evil as a person. That whole 60 minutes. Did you see that whole debacle the other day? [00:46:55] Speaker A: No. [00:46:55] Speaker B: 60 Minutes is CBS. And they were running a story that they had promoted heavily about the prison in El Salvador where it is, where they were sending all the immigrants they were arresting and sending there and torturing them and whatnot. And so they ran like an expose on what happened there and the fact that, like, most of the people that they arrested had no. Had not been accused of committing a crime or anything like that, and were put in one of the most horrific prisons you could possibly be put in. And then Bari Weiss, the woman who is in charge of news for CBS now, at the last second, was like, nope, we're not airing that. You know, Trump hasn't had a chance to give his side of the story on this, and therefore we haven't done our due diligence. And so we're not gonna air this. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Oh, that seems sus. [00:47:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Which on top of it, the people who made it were like, this has been thoroughly vetted, 100%. We offered the administration the chance to comment on this. And like, this is. You can't have that be a precedent that if they say, no, we won't comment. You don't air the statement. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Correct. [00:48:07] Speaker B: That's not how that works. Right. And so, yeah, that's who is now going to own TikTok, which is far worse than Chinese ownership or anyone else being in charge of it. This is dangerous. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Well, look, the ownership of TikTok, I have. I let my record reflect, right, that when something gets too fucking toxic, I can let it go. I can simply walk away. And I've done it plenty of times on plenty of platforms. I will simply leave. [00:48:42] Speaker B: And it's better anyway. Like, even if you enjoy using TikTok or any other service for that matter, like, let's not even just make it about TikTok. Of course, at this point, getting off of it is better for you. It just is, you know, like in the long run, everything is controlled in these ways that are harmful for us. And if someone gets on there, who is going to make it more toxic, leaving it is going to be the better choice. [00:49:16] Speaker A: Anyway, just zooming it back in just to me, because I'm going to do a. I wouldn't, I wouldn't find TikTok that tough to quit. I prefer reels because reels. Reels is a little darker. Reels. [00:49:28] Speaker B: You always say that. And it's so funny because reels for me is just food, videos and dogs. [00:49:34] Speaker A: Reels has worked out that I enjoy watching people get injured. [00:49:39] Speaker B: I mean, they were like, you know, sort of peak genocide times showing a lot of, you know, actual footage and stuff like that. And maybe that's why the algorithm is more. Yeah, you know, allows for more violence and whatnot than the tick tock one does. But yeah, I, Mine is the only things that I ever click on are food or dogs. So that's all that I get. It doesn't give me anything else Good. [00:50:05] Speaker A: But what a privilege worth thinking about. I apologize if that was a little bit okay, Boomer, but it just, it sticks out a mile, man. The playbook, you know. Yeah, we've, it's. And again. And I will, at the risk of overstating it, I do consider it a privilege. May you live in interesting times. And I, I find such a blessing, such a strange and particular thrill to watch disaster unfold and come towards you in slow motion. I don't know, this is how I. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Can tell that you're like in a, in a good zone. And you're not dropping into your end of the year, beginning of the year sads. Because when you are in the sads, then you're like, I regret saying that. [00:50:51] Speaker A: No, I'll double the fuck down. And I'm not. Hey, listen, I, I, you're not. It looks as though this opening is just gonna become the show now, so that's cool. Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:51:03] Speaker B: Yes, please do. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:51:08] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:51:12] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex cannibal recently. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:51:19] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking, I'm gonna leg it. [00:51:25] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that. [00:51:26] Speaker A: Mark, I think you feel great about it. Where are we? We're on December 28th and I'm feeling chipper as fuck again. Just maintaining this rare beautiful zone of balance and equilibrium where the meds are just right and I'm sleeping just fine, you know, and there's enough things to keep me distracted and I'm reading and I'm interacting with my family in positive ways and I'm not in work for. [00:52:00] Speaker B: Another week, you know, Always beautiful. [00:52:03] Speaker A: Back on Jack of all Graves. Jack of all Graves is back. [00:52:05] Speaker B: Friends. You know, it's just. [00:52:08] Speaker A: It's me and my bestie from a cross globe and it's you guys. You know what I mean? And we've just had Christmas. What the. What's. You know? Come on. If. [00:52:20] Speaker B: Come on. [00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah, man. I would have to be one dour indeed to not be able to find something to smile about tonight. [00:52:30] Speaker B: And we just had a wonderful post Christmas watch along as well. So we got to hang with all of our friends, which is delightful. And you got your privileges reinstated of choosing the movie. [00:52:44] Speaker A: Oh, thank heavens. Listen, the movie was the Void from I want to say 2019 or 1718, thereabouts. [00:52:52] Speaker B: I think it's 2016. It's getting up there in years. Yeah. [00:52:55] Speaker A: You shared on the chat a very interesting fact about the Void. Firstly, I didn't realize realize it was crowdfunded. I did not know that. [00:53:01] Speaker B: Well, just the effects. [00:53:03] Speaker A: Not the whole movie, just the effects. So they wanted to go the physical effects route. So they did a gofundme or a crowdfunder just to build the griblies. [00:53:14] Speaker B: Just. Yeah, just for the griblies. [00:53:15] Speaker A: Isn't that lovely? [00:53:17] Speaker B: So good. Yeah. My mom was in like a weird mood about this movie and she said the effects were just okay. And then I nearly yeeted her. It's like. What do you mean? They're just okay. [00:53:27] Speaker A: But even so. [00:53:28] Speaker B: What? [00:53:28] Speaker A: Even so, a just okay physical. Gribbly still beats the shit. [00:53:32] Speaker B: Still better than Steve Daniels. [00:53:34] Speaker A: A shiny, smooth, slick, you know, weirdly moving CG Gribbly. That's. You know, I adore watching movies with my kids. I enjoy watching movies that I love with my kids. I sat them down last week in front of Shaun of the Dead. Right? [00:53:53] Speaker B: Oh, very nice. [00:53:55] Speaker A: And even though Simon Pegg went on to become just an insufferable cunt. Insufferable. And even though Nick Frost is now on the shit list forever. No way back for you, mate. [00:54:11] Speaker B: No. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:13] Speaker B: Unforgivable. [00:54:15] Speaker A: And Edgar Wright has never quite been the same, you know, but what A movie, man. It holds up. I think. I think Shaun of the Dead exists. I want to say 2004. 2005. In a. In a space where CG was used as an embellishment as opposed to the whole thing. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Mm. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Had that been made now, it would be dry, it would be shiny. The no sense of space or contact or impact or trauma, you know? [00:54:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:48] Speaker A: It's. Despite it being in the. In. In the 2000s, it's a film where they swing rubber cricket mats around. You know what I mean? Where people get wet, where there's somebody. [00:54:59] Speaker B: I still have to close my eyes when the one guy gets pulled out the window and eviscerated. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Ah, yes, the Captain Rhodes. Give him the old Captain Rhodes. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Yep, exactly. [00:55:07] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very well done. Very well done. Oh, it's so good. And. And. And the script is. It's still sharp as fuck. [00:55:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:17] Speaker A: Plays a very interesting role in the law of my marriage. Shaun of the Dead, don't you know. [00:55:23] Speaker B: Oh, Have I ever told you this? That was lore. For anyone else who thought he said law at first, no law. [00:55:27] Speaker A: L O R E. Just sidebar here. But it's 2005, maybe 2004, and both my darling, delightful partner and wife and fucking lifelong bestie, Laura and I are living in Aberystwyth and we've been going out maybe four or five months and we've broken up. Right. [00:55:50] Speaker B: Ooh. Okay. [00:55:52] Speaker A: We've split up and I can't fucking remember why, but we've broken up. So what we do, it didn't take, obviously, because we're married now, clearly. [00:56:00] Speaker B: Yes. We don't have to worry about how. [00:56:03] Speaker A: This story ends, but to try and give. To give things another go. What we do is we leave Aberystwyth for the day on the train and we go to Shrewsbury. And anybody who knows the fucking journey I'm talking about, I'm hoping this. You know, I'm hoping you can see it right now in your mind's eye. And we go to see Shaun of the Dead and we stay over and we go shopping and we have a lovely time and fast forward 20 years later and we got two kids and we're still together. So. Shaun of the Dead is a movie that. [00:56:30] Speaker B: There you go. [00:56:30] Speaker A: I credit with helping to save my relationship. [00:56:35] Speaker B: A risky one, considering your wife does not like horror. [00:56:38] Speaker A: Yeah, we've both. We've both. We've both changed a lot in. I mean, I don't know. I don't think she picked it. I think she was lured in by the Rom com. As opposed to the bag of guts. [00:56:53] Speaker B: There's something for everybody that just shows. [00:56:55] Speaker A: Yeah, there is. [00:56:55] Speaker B: There is. [00:56:56] Speaker A: It's great. [00:56:57] Speaker B: I like it. It's a good story. [00:56:59] Speaker A: Take a pull on my weaponized nicotine delivery mechanism here. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Let it. You know, for all we bag on all of these things, let it be known we are not immune. [00:57:11] Speaker A: No, certainly not. And how, again, how many times have I said the. The self awareness that comes with being human is. Is such a complicated layered gift, you know, you don't find other people. [00:57:24] Speaker B: A lot of people don't seem to have it. [00:57:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:28] Speaker B: Self awareness sometimes feels in short supply, but it's good to have. [00:57:32] Speaker A: Yes, I agree in theory. So you've been away. It's. It's a real treat to have you back, actually. I know I speak on behalf of the. The Joao universe when I say how good it is. [00:57:43] Speaker B: It feels like a million years. I have. As I was saying to you earlier, I've. [00:57:47] Speaker A: I'm honestly sick. [00:57:48] Speaker B: Been gone the entire month of December. [00:57:50] Speaker A: I'm sick of carrying this podcast, if I'm. If I'm honest. I'm sick of doing seven on your back by the time you fucking showed up. [00:58:00] Speaker B: Yeah. No, as I started the month in Portugal with Kyo and Brianne and Kristen, had a lovely time there, ate lots of amazing food and walked around beautiful places and saw the sights and it was absolutely wonderful. And then. Oh, go ahead. [00:58:16] Speaker A: I. No, do go on. But I have a specific question about Hawaii. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. And then I was only here for four days, and then I was in Hawaii for two weeks. And, like, temporally, my head is fucked right now. I have no idea when I am because I went from like, it's 10 hours, it's five hours between Portugal and here, and it's five hours between here and Hawaii. And the overlap and these things being so close to each other, I just. I never got used to. I went to bed at like 6:30 or 7pm Almost every day in Hawaii because I was just like, I don't know, man. I'm just done being awake, I think. So I'm still recovering. I sat down in my little chair over here, my reading chair where I can see the snow and whatnot, and started to read earlier and then just fell asleep for two hours instead. [00:59:06] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:59:07] Speaker B: So, you know, one day, maybe I won't be a sleepy bitch, but one. [00:59:11] Speaker A: Day, when you were out there one morning, I awoke an hour after you'd sent me a message saying, mark, are you awake? I. It's very important That I show you something right now. Describe for us what you. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. This was. This is like bucket list, once in a lifetime craziness here. You may know that Kilauea, the volcano, has been erupting intermittently for the past year or so. And it, you know, often you'll get like, you. You always see, like, steam coming out, right? Like, that's pretty normal. I've seen the steam coming and things like that before. I've been there once in 2018, I think, when it was erupting. And from like a distance, I could kind of see a little bit of, like, flowing lava and stuff like that. And so it's. It's active. There's always stuff going on there. But over the course of the past year, there have been multiple incidents of it fountaining. And that's when, like, the lava just spews straight up like you imagine a volcano doing, right? It's going straight up in the air. And not only has it been fountaining, but higher than it has previously gone. And so we went and we. His sister had recommended, like, okay, so it starts flowing. It's not like you can't predict it per se, right. But they have ideas about, like, when things will happen. And so it started to erupt and, like, there were little spurts coming out or whatever. And Kyo's sister was like, go get a reservation at the Volcano House. They'll seat you by the window. You can see what's going on. So we did that. We went one night. And this is a restaurant? Yes, it's a restaurant called the Volcano House. Called Volcano House. Yeah, it's been there since the 1850s and many famous people have stayed there. And so we did that. We had a wonderful dinner next to the window where we could see the little spurts of volcano and whatnot. And then we walked up to get kind of a. Like, it's very dark in Hawaii. There's not a lot of light pollution. But obviously where the restaurant was, it was lit up. So we walked up this trail and we were talking to this couple, this retired couple in the dark, can't see each other at all. But we were talking to them and they had come from Wisconsin. Wisconsin, I want to say somewhere in the middle that is cold. And they were like, we. This is our third time here coming to see the volcano. Like, third time in the past year coming here to try to see the. The fountaining and whatnot. And they were talking about, like, they go all over the place to see interesting things like that and like, when there had been the eclipse, like, a year or two ago, the total eclipse, people went to Texas, right? Like, that was supposed to be, like, the best place to see it. And they got to Texas in their camper and were like, it's raining. We can't see anything. [01:02:15] Speaker A: What a way to spend your retirement, though. What a way to. [01:02:17] Speaker B: They drove a thousand miles to Indiana. [01:02:21] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:02:21] Speaker B: To see the eclipse. And I was like, you know what I said to them? I was like, you have inspired me. Like, I'm a pretty. I'm a seize the day person, you know? Like, you know that about me. Like, let's go. But I was like, if this thing goes off, we need. Whatever time it is, we need to come see it. Like, because we're going to be. We might be tired or whatever and be like, I don't want to drive an hour to the volcano to see it. But, no, you drove a thousand miles and saw an eclipse. We can drive an hour to go see a volcano erupt. And so we parted ways with them. The guy gave me, like, a 3D printed glow in the dark turtle that he made. She was very cute. Aw, lovely. And so we part ways, and I take my honu, that's the Hawaiian word for turtle, and we go on our way. And sure enough, the next day, we're, like, lying around, and I just have, like, the. The live feed, because they're webcams that you can watch live on YouTube of the volcano and what it's doing. And I. So I have it up on my computer while I'm just, you know, screwing around or whatever. And all of a sudden I'm like, keo, it's fountaining. It's going off, bud. Like, should we. Should we go? Because it's like, they'd known it would probably be within the next couple days or whatever, and then you don't know how long it's going to last. And so he was like, well, we could go, like, in the morning instead. Like, you know, And I'm like, what would that old couple do, man? Like, all right. So we got up and we went and we saw it, and it was fountaining. Like, I think this was, like a record. It was, like 1600ft. And you could hear. It was. It was cold. It was freezing and wet and everything. But we could see this huge thing, and you can hear the roar of it. You know, just this constant, like, sound from, like, you know, this. [01:04:24] Speaker A: How far away were you? How close did you get? [01:04:26] Speaker B: I'm gonna guess it's probably. Maybe A mile or two miles somewhere in that vicinity. But there's like these viewpoints or whatever. It's funny, the first time that I went to Hawaii, we hiked the Kilauea Iki Trader TRA crater. And then there's like a. A guest center called like the Jaeger center. And in 2018 when the volcano erupted, there was an earthquake and it broke and the entire road just is gone and the visitor center cracked in half. It is. It does not functionally exist anymore. So there's like places you could have before, like driven around to see from a different vantage point. It's gone. And that's an interesting thing about like an island being an active volcano is just sometimes that's it. The environment changes. [01:05:19] Speaker A: The question I want, I wanted to ask specifically. [01:05:21] Speaker B: Right, yeah. [01:05:25] Speaker A: Having been there and having the stars aligned and having this fountaining occurring while you were there and being able to look directly at it, not through a screen, not later on on a news report, but being there and watching something as fucking epic as that, how did it feel? What feelings did you have? [01:05:48] Speaker B: It's a very good question. I mean, awe is kind of the first one that that comes to mind. Just like, holy shit, you know, that is. That's big. And that's a thing that you only see like in movies or things like that. Right? Like, it's not something you see in real life or conceive that you are going to see something shooting lava 1500ft in the air. That's fairy tale fantasy stuff. So I don't know, I think I was just kind of consumed with like how special that is, you know, to like, not many people get to see this. Even if it's X amount of tourists or whatever who happen to be there at the right time to see it. Like in the grand scheme of humanity, most people do not get to see something like that. And you know, I think I. Yeah, that was kind of what overtook me was just like how rare, how incredible how, you know, and the changing landscape thing to me I think is. Is incredible to see that, you know, as this thing is spouting this lava, right, that's then like pouring down into the crater. That crater will never be the same again. It's not the crater that it was the night before when we went there and it is not now the same crater. It's the geography of this place, the topology of this place has changed before my eyes. [01:07:18] Speaker A: Yes. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Something that you normally wait millions of years for erosion to do, or something like that happened in front of me. And so, yeah, I think that's just an incredible thing to actually witness. [01:07:30] Speaker A: I can't wrap my fucking head around how cool that is. [01:07:36] Speaker B: Right. You see why I immediately was like, I need to call Mark. [01:07:39] Speaker A: And yeah, it's very, very moving to me personally that you thought, yeah, let's allow Mark to see this if. If only on a screen from across the world. [01:07:50] Speaker B: Right? [01:07:50] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. Globally, it's. It's a speck of people who've seen something as fucking apeshit nuts as that taking place before them. The planet, the topography of the living earth changing before your eyes. [01:08:04] Speaker B: Changing before. Yeah. [01:08:05] Speaker A: Unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, again, how, how can you be down on. [01:08:10] Speaker B: Right, Yeah. I mean, come on. Like, listen, we got this one life and you see a thing like that that people don't see in all the lifetimes. [01:08:23] Speaker A: Yes. [01:08:24] Speaker B: You gotta feel good about it. [01:08:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:08:26] Speaker B: But I'm very glad now, you know, to be back in my home. As spectacular as that all was. I'm here with the snow and my bed and all of those things and very grateful for that too. [01:08:41] Speaker A: Yes. And again, I know I speak for all of our listeners when I say that I'm glad to have you back too. It's gonna be good. [01:08:46] Speaker B: Well, thank you. [01:08:47] Speaker A: To get back in the fucking routine. To get back in the groove. [01:08:50] Speaker B: Indeed. Yeah, I'm, I'm stoked. You know, it's our last jog the year. It's also that we did not do anything special about it because neither of us were thinking about it. But it is our 250th episode today. It is. I was writing out the like, you know, outline thing and I was like, Ep250. Oh, well, look at that. [01:09:09] Speaker A: Very nice. [01:09:11] Speaker B: That's, that's neat. And so, you know, I think it's great that episode 250 falls at the end of the year as we pass into another one in which, as we've talked about, we're gonna have some cool guests and things like that and kind of level up in various ways that I think is going to be a lot of fun. And we're just here hanging out and enjoying each other's company and enjoying that you guys are here with us, you know? [01:09:36] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, all of which I completely concur with. I, I'm, I'm curious to see what these leveling up plans are. Corrigan. I don't remember agreeing to anything talked about this. [01:09:48] Speaker B: The end of the year, you don't have to remember anything. I'll remind you. [01:09:51] Speaker A: Do you want to quickly run through some Movies. Let's see what I mean, because I've watched way more than you've watched. [01:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I have not watched much of anything over this time. I think we both watched the Running Man. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Let's go back a little bit. Let's talk about Keeper first, if we can. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Oh, Keeper. Right, right. Yeah. This is. We had different experiences of this that I think are more in line with our general responses to Osgood Perkins. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's a great point. Right. That's a great point. I'll tell you what. If he doesn't watch himself, he's gonna become my guy. Right? He needs to be fucking careful if he keeps putting out quality movies, you're gonna become my guy. I'm gonna fixate on you if you're not careful. Right. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah. That was not my experience. You know, I love the monkey, obviously, but I don't like. And I liked. What's the Nicholas Cage one? [01:10:51] Speaker A: Long legs. [01:10:52] Speaker B: Long legs. Thank you. Yeah, I liked those two. So I was like, you know what? Maybe there's, like, a change in style here and I'm gonna, like, be into Osgood Perkins movies now. No, it's not what happened here. Cooper did not. It was a return to form. [01:11:07] Speaker A: Okay, I see. Well, that's unfortunate, because do you know what I loved about it? Right. We often complain, you and I, about movies which don't stick the landing when it comes to the Gribbly being a Gribbly. And it's trauma or its grief or it's the patriarchy. [01:11:24] Speaker B: I mean, it is those things in. [01:11:25] Speaker A: This, but it also is actually a Gribbly. Why can't it be both? Why can't it be both? [01:11:30] Speaker B: Right. If you're gonna do it, please make it both. [01:11:33] Speaker A: Yes. This is a movie. A. The Gribblies are fucking brilliant. Right. And keeping in mind what I've just said about CG Griblies, not really working for me. Strike that from the record when it comes to. [01:11:46] Speaker B: Keep it. [01:11:46] Speaker A: Because there are some great. Oh, God. There are some fantastic creature designs in this film. Yeah. [01:11:53] Speaker B: I like the does. I don't love the CG of them, but I do love the designs. [01:11:56] Speaker A: You got the necky Gribbly of the long neck. You've got the Gribbly Omani faces. Yeah. You've got Tatiana Maslany being fucking brilliant. [01:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, she's incredible. The. The Sutherland fella is very bad. He is a terrible actor. And that was a big problem for. For me throughout this. His weird. I don't know what that accent he was Doing is because clearly you find out he's very much American, like, or Canadian or whatever it' supposed to be in this. He's. [01:12:29] Speaker A: There's no reason from no country. [01:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Like Anton Shigur sounds like. Yeah, like, why is he talking like that? [01:12:37] Speaker A: For some reason, I don't. I like it. [01:12:39] Speaker B: It was like every single scene he was in, I was like, stop doing that. [01:12:41] Speaker A: No, I liked it. I. I like, I hated it. That it was a bold choice. More people should do it. Should put on just a fucking voice as a bit. [01:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Just. Why not? You know? And when you're acting opposite Tatiana Maslany, who is just one of the most incredible actresses out there, it's like you really got to level up. But maybe that's why he decided to do an accent. He was like, I am not good enough. I got. Maybe that's what I got to put on, an accent to match her energy. [01:13:10] Speaker A: Got to come up with something here, day one. [01:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:12] Speaker A: It's like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. [01:13:14] Speaker B: Him and like the one other guy in it were both like, just really bad actors. And I was like, which first? Like, I don't know. I think maybe it's a thing he likes. Because I think of that with like the black coats daughter too, is like the supporting cast in that is like, terrible. You've got like the nun who has clearly had like so much plastic surgery that she can't even move her face anymore and things like that. [01:13:38] Speaker A: No memory of that movie at all. [01:13:42] Speaker B: Well, there you go. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's a thing. Maybe to him that's like a stylization choice to have terrible actors. [01:13:50] Speaker A: It's. It wasn't as overt a funny voice as you might get from a Tom Hardy. Right. It was like you'd have to wait. [01:13:59] Speaker B: It was enough to just make you go, is he doing a voice? [01:14:02] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. What he's doing, Corrigan, is he's making you interrogate the material. He's forcing you into a dialogue with the material. And that is brave. As opposed to Tom Hardy, who just makes you go, tom, stop it. This guy. [01:14:19] Speaker B: I love Tom Hardy and his insane voices. [01:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah. A layer of metatextual makes you feel crazy. [01:14:29] Speaker B: Am I imagining that? [01:14:30] Speaker A: Yep. [01:14:31] Speaker B: I love that. [01:14:32] Speaker A: I love that. And. And again, I can't go, look, it was it. I found it intimate. I found it claustrophobic. I found it unnerving. And then it plays its hand and all hell breaks loose with some S tier monster design. I'm. Listen, Oz, I know you're a listener, pal. You gotta watch yourself. Right. [01:14:53] Speaker B: You better. You better be careful out there, buddy. [01:14:56] Speaker A: Because otherwise you're gonna turn into what I wanted Ariasta to be for me. [01:15:02] Speaker B: Oh, there you go. I'd take him over Ari Aster any day. [01:15:05] Speaker A: Oh, at this point, fucking any time of the day. Asked me six years ago would have been a different story. But now it's like, ari who? Fuck off. [01:15:14] Speaker B: But yes. Then we also both watched separately, but watched the Running Man. [01:15:18] Speaker A: Am I mercurial? Is that what that means? [01:15:22] Speaker B: I don't. I don't think. I mean, I think you just. No, I think they just changed and you changed your opinion. [01:15:29] Speaker A: What does mercurial mean? [01:15:30] Speaker B: Isn't that like stormy, like you, like. You like, change with, like, whims or whatever? Oh. [01:15:42] Speaker A: Subject to. [01:15:43] Speaker B: Funny thing is, I think I learned. [01:15:44] Speaker A: Changes of mood or mind. Yeah, no, I'm not mercurial. [01:15:48] Speaker B: Yeah, like, I think I learned this word from you. [01:15:53] Speaker A: Learned it anew. I'm not mercurial. I just. [01:15:55] Speaker B: The joag cycle. Yeah. Running man was, you know, it's. It's a fun time. [01:16:05] Speaker A: Surprisingly solid. [01:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think it's exactly what I expected it to be, to be honest. It's. I think, Yeah, I have issues with various elements of it. And also it's like. I don't know, it's like so on the nose, obviously. And the first one's not subtle. The original is not subtle either. But I think it's like, lacking a little bit of the fun of the original. This one kind of overstays its welcome. It's like, listen, probably like 30 minutes too long. [01:16:37] Speaker A: It's a perfect. It's a perfect encapsulation of Edgar Wright's journey. [01:16:42] Speaker B: Right. [01:16:43] Speaker A: Right There. There are things in that movie that. That are. The same guy who I saw making Sha of the Dead a few weeks later. You know how Shaun of the Dead is littered with horror movie references and director references? Running man is the same. Just full of little Stephen King jokes. Full of. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:03] Speaker A: Little action. [01:17:05] Speaker B: If you know, you know, if you. [01:17:06] Speaker A: Know, you know, type stuff. Loads of that. [01:17:09] Speaker B: But it's also. Baby driver. [01:17:11] Speaker A: Exactly. This. Yes. [01:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [01:17:16] Speaker A: Which is. [01:17:16] Speaker B: I felt like it's Is. Is. [01:17:18] Speaker A: Again, I. I can't. I'm trying my best to criticize Running man and I really find that I can't. [01:17:24] Speaker B: I mean, it's just. I think maybe it's because I'm comparing it to the original, which I'm not gonna say is like a great movie or whatever, but I think there are things that, that one did really well in its campiness. Like for example, I think that like Killian being like the, a real game show host and being so like you getting that sort of duality of this guy on stage and whatnot and him behind the scenes and it's a guy you know and are familiar with. You don't get anything of Colman Domingo in this. Just every once in a while he comes out on stage and does a little dance and then like that's it. Like he's not a character in this movie in any meaningful way. Right. Like Josh Brolin takes on that role which may be truer to the book, I don't know. [01:18:07] Speaker A: But it's not what I read actually. I think yeah, you can't, you can't try to be iconic. You can't factor iconic moments. [01:18:18] Speaker B: But I, but I feel like my thing is that the game doesn't feel like it exists to me. You don't really get much of the other characters either. Like you know, in the, in the original movie too. Like he works with them a little bit and stuff like that. Like you don't really get it doesn't feel like a game. It's just a guy who is like being tracked down or whatever. And I have, I have issues with the end of it too, which I won't spoil for anyone. But it doesn't return to where it should and that bothers me as well, like just from a story perspective. But yeah, it overall though, like I gave it a 3.5. It's fun enough to watch. It's turn off your brain and watch it. It's the message of it is beating you over the head. [01:19:03] Speaker A: But Owen fucking loved it. Right. An 11 year old fucking ate it for breakfast. I don't agree with one or two things you said there. I, I, I think it plugged in Glen Powell into the underground really nicely. I loved him working with Michael Cera. I loved that he, you know, he fell in with the fucking YouTuber guy. The resistance. [01:19:22] Speaker B: I thought that was really nicely drawn out, you know. And I think those are like some of the better parts of it. But also one of the things that I thought was weird about this is that it doesn't give you a reason why everyone gets behind him really. And so like because he is, yeah, every message that you get from him because they're deep faking him. Right. Like they're all getting this message that he hates his fellow man. He is, he would kill citizens. He doesn't give a about you. [01:19:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:51] Speaker B: And they're all like, this guy because. And he's like. It's like, presented like, well, they're just glad someone's winning or whatever. But we know that other people have gotten farther, you know, like, they've gotten to day 29 or whatever. So it's not like it's. Oh, that's never happened before or anything like that. So why have they taken up this man as a hero? It's just kind of more because we know he is than because the people in the movie know he is. [01:20:16] Speaker A: I'll tell you what. I didn't have any problems with Glenn Powell. I mean it. [01:20:23] Speaker B: Aside from having to look at his face. Yeah. [01:20:25] Speaker A: I didn't have a single fucking issue with him in that film. I thought he did a great job. He carried it. I. [01:20:31] Speaker B: Tell me. [01:20:32] Speaker A: Tell me again why you hate him. Is it anything specific? Is it. Is he. Is he. [01:20:35] Speaker B: I don't. [01:20:36] Speaker A: Piece of shit. [01:20:36] Speaker B: The thing is, I don't actually, like, hate Glen Powell. I hate, like, the roles he's in usually. So, like Twisters or that one where he's like the. The con man or whatever. Not con man. [01:20:51] Speaker A: The. [01:20:52] Speaker B: The. He's a killer, a contract killer, you know? [01:20:57] Speaker A: Nope. [01:20:58] Speaker B: And he takes on all the different identities or whatever. Anyways, other. Someone's yelling it right now at us. It was an incredibly popular Netflix movie. Yes. But I, you know, I don't like a lot of the things that he's in. And also his face bothers me. And that he's, like, presented as, like, some sort of heartthrob in things when he looks like that is annoying to me. However, I've said before, like, when I see him in interviews and stuff like that he's very charming. His parents come to all of his interviews and, like, you know, that it's. He brings his dog, like, you know, he seems like a very nice guy or whatever, but he also kind of plays into, like, a very white American fantasy in a lot of his roles that, like, his roles are often meant for, like, they're like white supremacist coded type shit, you know? And so, yeah, I don't like his place in pop culture, but he. [01:22:01] Speaker A: He isn't. He isn't known to be a piece of shit yet. [01:22:05] Speaker B: No, not correct. Not as far as I know. Yeah. This is more like your Simon Pegg thing than anything else. And even. Even less so because I think as a guy, I think I like him, but I think he's being used in pop culture in sort of a similar way as Sydney Sweeney. [01:22:20] Speaker A: Yes. [01:22:21] Speaker B: Except Sydney Sweeney actually is terrible. But like, I think he has like a similar place in popular culture. [01:22:28] Speaker A: Well, I will continue to cautiously. Quite kind of like the guy for now. [01:22:32] Speaker B: As far as I know, he seems like he's delightful. He has given me no reason as a human being dislike him. [01:22:41] Speaker A: You're fine with 50% of us. I know you're listening. I am cool with you. So if you want to come on, we'll just do an episode with just me and you. [01:22:51] Speaker B: That's fair. That's fair. [01:22:52] Speaker A: We'll wait until Tori's next holiday in a week or so. [01:22:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Also watch Wolf of Snow Hollow rewatched. [01:23:00] Speaker A: You were just doing nervous giggling. We'll cut that out. Fucking drop. [01:23:06] Speaker B: It's not nervous, it's regular giggling. I'm just having a good time. This is. We have a grand total of one negative review and it's not even like that negative. The girl just didn't like me. This is like a three star review. And she's like, this show is so fascinating, so interesting. It's really interesting. But the female host is like, has this nervous giggle and it's so unprofessional and amateur. Like, okay, if you say so. I'm not nervous. I'm just having a good time. [01:23:44] Speaker A: I'm not nervous, just enjoying myself. Sorry, let me see. [01:23:48] Speaker B: My bad. I was then listening to like last podcast on the left right after that where it's like they just like laugh at themselves and like wheeze the whole time. And I was like, boy, she must hate this. [01:24:00] Speaker A: You know how I feel about that. [01:24:02] Speaker B: No, it's like us, not like in a. Not in the comedian way that you hate. It's in a, like they're having a good time and they enjoy each other's company so they laugh. That kind of thing. [01:24:12] Speaker A: The other something else that occurs to me that I hate about comedians is the. And I'm certain I've told you I've spoken about this before is the pause for a laugh. I do you know what I'm talking about? [01:24:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:27] Speaker A: I'm doing a funny bit. I'm going to do a funny bit and then pause for a laugh. I hate that. Hate it so much. [01:24:37] Speaker B: It's tough out there. It's tough out there. [01:24:38] Speaker A: It's hard. It's hard to be me. [01:24:40] Speaker B: The Wolf of Snow Hollow rewatch that, of course, for the millionth time. And if you. It's on our feed, Kristen and I talking about it. It's the one movie this year she didn't like. So you can Listen to that. I put it on the main feed. [01:24:56] Speaker A: Didn't like it as. Didn't like it on its own terms or didn't think it was a very good horror movie. [01:25:01] Speaker B: Yes, it is. So this is the first time we've ever watched, like, a black comedy before. We've watched horror comedies like Tucker and Dale, but that's not, like, dark, you know, it's violent and whatever, but it's silly. So this is the first time that we watch something like that where it's like, the humor is in how not funny these situations are. And so the whole time, she was kind of watching it, like, ev. Every. Everyone's terror. Terrible. Am I. Am I. Is it. Am I supposed to laugh? Like, what? She was so confused by the tone of the movie that she was like, I can't. I don't understand what I'm supposed to be taking from this. And I was like, oh, that's. I hadn't considered that this was. You know. That is a new idea for you. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Kristen, you make a fascinating point, because that is such a fucking difficult zone to find. [01:25:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:53] Speaker A: To get right. [01:25:54] Speaker B: Mm, very much so. [01:25:56] Speaker A: And now that I put myself on the spot, I can't really think of any examples. And I'd love. Listener. I'd love you to share some with us if you can think of any examples of movies that put you right in that zone of not knowing whether to laugh, whether you should be laughing with the material, at the material. I love that fucking tiny little vanishingly small square of emotional vulnerability where you just don't feel. Know how to feel. [01:26:26] Speaker B: Right. I was thinking, like, on, like, sort of a mainstream idea of that, Like, I think Fargo kind of falls into that category where, like, the content of that movie is not funny, per se, but the way that the characters sort of engage with what happens to them. [01:26:43] Speaker A: I think Fargo, it certainly seeks that place out. But what Fargo then does is it. It resolves it. That's true. [01:26:53] Speaker B: And Wolf of Snow Hollow does not do that. [01:26:55] Speaker A: Wonderful. [01:26:56] Speaker B: It's a very good point. [01:26:57] Speaker A: Just a couple of lines of dialogue where she. You know, she says, it's a lovely day, and you got people doing this for just a little bit of money. Hell, you know what I mean? And you realize that's true. That's where this movie is. But I would love if anyone could give me some recommendations of movies in a fucking weird, emotional. [01:27:14] Speaker B: Sit in the discomfort. [01:27:15] Speaker A: Yes, please. [01:27:17] Speaker B: Why am I laughing? Yeah. And I think the Wolf of Snow Hollow does that brilliantly. If that's a thing that you like, which Kristen had never experienced this before and was confused tonally by, like, why does it feel like it's supposed to be funny? But bad things are happening here, you know, like, these are these horrific, violent murders of women that are happening and a police officer who is losing his mind and is an alcoholic and, you know, all of these awful things happening with people. And it's like the funny part is like, sort of the heightened absurdity of the situations he gets himself into and things like that, you know, and. But if it were real life, like, this is hugely dark. You know, nothing about this is. Is funny on any stretch of the imagination. But it is the absurdity of how it's presented that is supposed to sort of make you laugh at all of it, you know, laugh at the worst things in life. Which I think is. That's what works about it to me is it's like, these are horrific things that people experience. You know, this would be a terrible situation to be in. And for anyone who grows up in those kinds of situations or lives in those kinds of situations, like, you either fall into it or you laugh at it. You know, it either destroys you or you can, you know, like me telling the story of my brother holding up a coffee shop. Like, usually when I tell that story, it's with a lot of humor or whatever, and how he became known as the Syringe Bandit and stuff like that. And there were copycats, and, you know, I tell it as. Yeah, I tell it as, like, a silly anecdote, but that's really dark. He got hooked on drugs and tried to rob a place and was in jail for a decade. [01:28:59] Speaker A: Like, that's not a funny story place, you know, in the space of a day or two. Do you get right. [01:29:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a. That's a big spiral that gets you to those points. And so, yeah, I think, like you said, anyone has suggestions of other ones like that? I think it's a delicate line, and it's not going to work for everybody either. There's a lot of people who are just going to go, why are. Why are we making light of this? [01:29:22] Speaker A: Yes. [01:29:23] Speaker B: Which is sort of Kristen's perspective on it. But, yeah, check it out. We also talked about the podcast Unicorn Girl on there and about Death by Lightning, the series. Did you finish it? [01:29:33] Speaker A: No, I'm on episode four or five. [01:29:36] Speaker B: Okay. Four is where things, like, really go off the rails. It's like the preview at the end of episode three is like, so many guns. And you're like, sorry, guns. [01:29:46] Speaker A: Yeah, very compelling. And I simply can't see where it would go next. [01:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:53] Speaker A: You know. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Right. It is fully unpredictable. [01:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Really good rec. Thank you. Have you noticed. Have you noticed that I am fully in my taking people's recommendations era? Have you noticed that? [01:30:08] Speaker B: I have now. Yeah. [01:30:10] Speaker A: You should, because it's. It's very pronounced. I'm. Yeah, I'm on book four of a seven book series that someone recommended that Richard recommended to me. [01:30:19] Speaker B: Right. Do you think who is this man who sits before us? You just happening through years ago. Could not. Can you please watch Fantastic Planet for me? [01:30:29] Speaker A: No, because they have to be new recs. I can't go back. I can't retroactively start. [01:30:34] Speaker B: Oh, it's brand new. This is. It's a new thing. I'm recommending it to you today. [01:30:39] Speaker A: Is it long? [01:30:41] Speaker B: No, it's just a weird fucking crazy cartoon from France full of bizarre imagery. [01:30:50] Speaker A: Right. [01:30:50] Speaker B: I just want you to watch. [01:30:52] Speaker A: How'd you like this? I go back to work on the 5th of January, right. [01:30:55] Speaker B: Mm. [01:30:56] Speaker A: By then I'll have that cunt watched. [01:30:58] Speaker B: Oh, fuck. [01:30:59] Speaker A: What do you think of that? [01:31:00] Speaker B: I'm gonna hold you to that. [01:31:01] Speaker A: What do you think of that? [01:31:02] Speaker B: I'm gonna hold you to it. [01:31:03] Speaker A: It's on YouTube, isn't it? [01:31:05] Speaker B: I'm sure it is. [01:31:06] Speaker A: I'm sure. I'm certain I've seen it on YouTube. [01:31:08] Speaker B: It's not. It's easy to plex, but I might. [01:31:10] Speaker A: Even sit my ass on Discord while I'm watching it. [01:31:14] Speaker B: Please do. This is a very discordable movie. It's so fucking weird. This is literally like the first recommendation I ever gave to Mark five years ago. Just because I wanted him to understand, like a little about me. Because this was a bizarre movie that made me feel weird when I was like 5 years old. And I would just keep putting that VHS tape in because there were two VHS tapes that we had that had a white sleeve, just a white sleeve. And one of them was like Follow that Bird, the Sesame street movie. And one of them was this. And I accidentally put in this. And then it became an obsession for me. [01:31:56] Speaker A: Who in your family liked that movie enough to buy it on vhs? [01:32:00] Speaker B: Apparently it was my Uncle Bert. I don't know how we ended up with it, but somehow his copy of this movie ended up in our house near the TV and too close to follow that bird. And so I just. It was that weird. Like it really defines for me that, like, attraction, repulsion of horror. Yeah. Like, where I wasn't enjoying it per se, but I couldn't get enough of it at the same time. And the imagery of it like stuck in my head when I went to sleep. You know, I'd have nightmares about this movie. And so. So, you know, as an adult, it's not gonna like scare you or anything like that, but I think you'll get just a sense of like that. Weird. [01:32:47] Speaker A: Okay. [01:32:48] Speaker B: Imagine a 5 year old watching this movie clearly made as like a philosophical treatise for adults. [01:32:55] Speaker A: By the next. Next time we sit down to record a jog, I would have seen it. [01:32:59] Speaker B: Okay, sounds good. [01:33:00] Speaker A: How you like that? [01:33:02] Speaker B: I like it a lot. [01:33:03] Speaker A: Good. Okay, I will speak briefly. [01:33:05] Speaker B: What else did you watch? [01:33:06] Speaker A: I'll speak briefly on they live. I have a tradition every year. It's a Christmas tradition. And I'm not really a traditions guy. I don't really do traditions as such. There aren't really many things that I make a point of doing at a certain time. It's true, isn't it? Yeah. But one of my traditions is at Christmas I will make sure that there's nobody else around and I will wrap my Christmas presents sat on the floor cross legged. I'll have the Sellotape around me and all the wrapping paper and all the chaos. [01:33:40] Speaker B: What? Sellotape? [01:33:42] Speaker A: Oh, shut up. [01:33:44] Speaker B: What is it a type of tape or is it just like Sellotape brand? Sellotape. [01:33:50] Speaker A: S E L O T A P E Sellotape. It's a roll of sticky tape. You know what I mean? You pull it off. [01:33:58] Speaker B: Is it thin or fat? [01:34:00] Speaker A: It comes in as many widths as you would find useful and it makes a very specific. I'm explaining Sellotape. You don't get this on any other podcasts. The mechanisms of addicting a human population and a description of Sellotape. This is why you come here. [01:34:20] Speaker B: This is what you're here for. [01:34:21] Speaker A: I'm gonna try now to imitate the sound of pulling some Sellotape off a rope. Like that. Oh, it sounds. [01:34:29] Speaker B: Is it clear? [01:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:32] Speaker B: Masking tape sound to me. [01:34:34] Speaker A: And every year I'll accidentally like eat like a half a foot of it by pulling it off in my teeth and anyway, anyhow, and I sit on the floor cross legged and it gets progressively more difficult year after year because of my knees and spine. I'm 47, Methuselah, me. And I would watch a movie. I'll watch a movie that I specifically enjoy. A movie that I want to see. I don't know why, but they live within my mind and I want. And I put it on and I loved it. [01:35:02] Speaker B: It's so good, man. There's just like a 15 minute wrestling scene in the middle. [01:35:10] Speaker A: Does a back body drop, man. He literally executes a back body drop in the brawl. So great. [01:35:16] Speaker B: It's so good. It's so unsubtle. [01:35:19] Speaker A: Certain this has been covered elsewhere in articles or another podcast, I'm certain, but the question I was left with at the end of they Live is why wasn't Roddy Piper a fucking huge movie star? Because he's great in this film. [01:35:32] Speaker B: That is a good question. [01:35:34] Speaker A: No, no, man, you don't cast Roddy Piper by mistake. You know what I mean? John Carpenter must have known something of his background. Must have seen him, you know, cut a promo, must have seen his work, you know. [01:35:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, that's the guy, that's. [01:35:46] Speaker A: The guy and he is the guy in this film. He's fucking brilliant. Just when did you see they Live Last? Have you seen it recently? [01:35:54] Speaker B: I think only like six months ago. Yeah, pretty recently. [01:35:56] Speaker A: You know, when he finds the box of sunglasses in the, in the Rebel house and he's walking around town and he's pouring them on for the first time and he sees the signs and he sees. And he's just. I fucking knew it would be something like this. So great. So great and good one. Look, don't hate me, okay? But I think there's a lot to say if somebody decided they wanted to remake it. [01:36:26] Speaker B: I don't think you're entirely wrong there. [01:36:29] Speaker A: And I don't mean like, I don't mean like in the thing kind of way. Just do it again. [01:36:33] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [01:36:36] Speaker A: And maybe, look, it'll be on the nose just like the last Running man was on the nose. [01:36:40] Speaker B: Right. [01:36:40] Speaker A: But I certainly think there's definitely more you can say with that fucking movie in 2026. [01:36:49] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Just as relevant, if not more. [01:36:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:36:54] Speaker B: Now. Yeah. And I, as I've said, you know, I kind of feel like we're in a time when we need more on the nose movies because it feels like everything is so subtle, nobody can figure out who the Nazis are anymore and things like that. Like, listen, if we need to, you know, hit people over the head with it, maybe that's the way we do it. [01:37:12] Speaker A: What a great point. I, yeah, I, I, I wouldn't be up in arms or, you know, affronted at all if someone wanted to take another run. And they live. [01:37:20] Speaker B: You could even put Glen Powell in it. [01:37:23] Speaker A: You could, right? [01:37:27] Speaker B: You totally could. [01:37:28] Speaker A: Or MJF Glenn acting now, directed by Oz Perkins. They Live. [01:37:35] Speaker B: Oh, God, no, book it. Oh, no, the slow meditative. They live it. [01:37:46] Speaker A: You got anything else? Let me see. [01:37:49] Speaker B: You know, it's kind of a horror movie that I watched that in the Christmas season is Scrooged. [01:37:55] Speaker A: Wonderful. [01:37:56] Speaker B: You know, that's. That's a scary ass movie. If you're like a kid watching that. Ghosts and that are so horrific. You gotta appreciate how hard they went on that. [01:38:07] Speaker A: One of my earliest cinema memories is Scrooge. Caught that the Market Hall Cinema in Bryn Mawr and made a huge impact on me. Like you said, the zombie makeup is fantastic. That the, the. The ghost of Christmas Present, I believe the fairy. Wonderful. [01:38:27] Speaker B: Yeah. What's her face from? Carol. Carol something. [01:38:34] Speaker A: Carol. [01:38:34] Speaker B: I don't know. She's delightful. You know, she's in Kimmy Schmidt and all kinds of things. Yeah, she is. That whole thing is just. It's great. But one thing that I do think every time I watch Scrooge is that Bill Murray seems like he's the most annoying man on earth. Like when you think. Because every character that he plays is essentially the same. So you get the feeling that like, this is just kind of like the guy he is. I mean, not necessarily like total asshole, like the characters here, right. Like Chevy Chase, but like just that I feel like he'd be an exhausting person to be around. That is. Yeah, he's like so pleased with himself. You know, he thinks that he's the funniest guy in the room. [01:39:15] Speaker A: That's part of his law, isn't it? That's part of his mystique. Well, yeah, that, you know, he's. He's a very singular, you know, exactly what you. What, what you're getting when you go see him in a movie. [01:39:27] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. You can tell he's. He's pleased with himself. [01:39:33] Speaker A: Hey, if. Wouldn't you be? [01:39:38] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know. [01:39:40] Speaker A: But great. [01:39:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:41] Speaker A: I didn't. Yeah. Were we even recording? I don't know when I said this, but I. I don't think I saw a single Christmas movie this year. Not one. [01:39:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's wild. [01:39:49] Speaker A: And to watch one, that would be heretic behavior, wouldn't it? [01:39:52] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. I got into my car today because obviously. So I got home 6am The 26th, and I was like, family. We are pretending today is Christmas Day. No acknowledgement that it's not Christmas Day. Today's Christmas. I spent Christmas Day on a plane where we're pretending. And then today, so it's the 28th, I got into my car to go pick up some bagels for. For breakfast. And I was like, what station is my car on? Because it was playing, like, Physical by Olivia Newton John. I was like, what's going on here? And I looked at it, and it's like the Hallmark radio channel, but I had left, and it was Christmas, and already on the 28th, they have stopped playing Christmas music on the Hallmark radio channel on Sirius. And I was like, ah, come on. You couldn't have at least given me to, like, New Year's for this? It's just like, you're done. You're out. Christmas is over there. [01:40:49] Speaker A: There are homes around here that are very clearly very pleased with their lighting display outside their house and leave it up until, like, January the fucking 9th. [01:40:58] Speaker B: And I. I think that's fine. Listen, it takes a while to put your stuff up. You gotta get all the use and joy out of it, you know? And a week or so into January, that's fine. Also, like, some of our decorations aren't, like, Christmas specific, like a wreath. It's just winter, you know? I love winter decorations. What am I gonna just have a plain house? You gotta have decorations on your house. [01:41:25] Speaker A: Aretha Franklin. [01:41:28] Speaker B: Exactly. You gonna tell me Aretha is only for Christmas? I don't think so. Tim, let's be real. [01:41:37] Speaker A: What do you say? Wrap it up. [01:41:40] Speaker B: I want, like, the podcast. [01:41:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:41:42] Speaker B: What time is it? How long have we been going? There was one thing I want to talk about, though. I know it's. [01:41:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, go on. Go for it. Go for it. I'm not working. [01:41:48] Speaker B: There was just. Good, good, good. We did. We talked longer than we meant to. We had other things to get to, and we're not going to get to them. But there is one thing that. Because I just read a whole bunch about it. So. Have you heard that a new podcast has come out and there's been articles about it all over the place where a guy, an autistic fella, thinks that he has solved both the Black Dahlia and the Zodiac murders and that it's the same guy. [01:42:20] Speaker A: No, this is. [01:42:21] Speaker B: This is. [01:42:21] Speaker A: This is entirely news to me. [01:42:24] Speaker B: Yeah, this is incredible. Well, that's. That's kind of what I want to talk about here. Because as soon as I heard this, I was like, okay, sure. Because, I mean, think about when we talked about DB Cooper recently, and that was like. Came out, and people were like, yes, this is credible. This is definitely the guy. And then our dear Blue sky friend was like, hey, so that guy's a grifter, and the media all fell for his Grift. That's definitely not D.B. cooper. And so, you know, rushing into things on this, like, I think we've all been burned enough times. [01:43:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't matter how autistic you are at this point. We've all got access to the same information. [01:43:14] Speaker B: Right. So this guy. And so I tried listening to the podcast. Not all the episodes are out. Also the host of it. Have you ever watched Drunk History? [01:43:25] Speaker A: No. [01:43:26] Speaker B: You've never seen Drunk History? Nope. Oh, fuck. You gotta watch Drunk History. It's the best thing on earth. [01:43:31] Speaker A: I know, I know. I'm listening to Rex, but come on, go easy. [01:43:36] Speaker B: You know the premise of Drunk History again? [01:43:38] Speaker A: No. Although it seems like it might explain itself. [01:43:44] Speaker B: Yeah, probably. Drunk History is a show hosted. Was a show hosted by a guy called Derek Waters who would get his friends extremely drunk, and they would learn a history story beforehand, and then they would retell that history story while wasted. And then there'd be a reenactment, but the reenactors would be like, lip syncing the person's voice. So whatever weird shit that they came out, that came out of their mouth while telling the story, the reenactors would be mouthing that stuff and acting it out and things like that. And so it's delightful. It's just one of those shows that, yeah, it, like, it makes you smile. It's absurd, all these kinds of things. But anyway, when they tell these stories, obviously they're like, trying their best to, like, not sound drunk while they're telling you this story. And that's what the host of this podcast sounds like. Like he sounds like a very drunk person who's like, trying to, like, hold it back, you know, like he's just got this way where he'd be like, you know, I'm reading the beginning of this article here. He'd be like. When police question Arvin Margulis following the murder of Elizabeth Short, who came known as Black Dahlia, it's like, so hard to listen to. It's like, very slow and sounds like he's trying to cover up that he's taught he's sloshed. So. Yeah, but this podcast is kind of, you know, revealing how this whole thing worked out. But this guy thinks that this was a fella named Marvin Margolis who was geographically. [01:45:21] Speaker A: How close are these two crimes? [01:45:24] Speaker B: So the Black Dahlia murders were in la and the Zodiac killings were in Northern California. So we're talking like 400, 500 miles from each other. Something like that. Southern California versus Northern California. So this Guy basically was on the list of suspects for the Black Dahlia. He was in a relationship with her. They'd lived together for a short time, but he was excluded by the police based on, like, alibi and things like that at the time. That was in the 1950s. And then the Zodiac killings happened in the late 1960s, 1968, and 69 in Northern California. So this guy, Alex Baber, this is the autistic fella. He taught himself code breaking, and he believes he has 100% solved this thing, Right? He. This whole sort of way that he broke this down involves, like. So there are two unsolved Zodiac ciphers still, right? They've solved a few of them. They know what they said. And then there's two that they still have not cracked. [01:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:42] Speaker B: One of which came after, like, the, like, president of the Code Breaking Society of America or something like that was like, oh, yeah, if you're such a big bad, put your name in this one. Right. Like, if you're so confident we can't, Blake, break your code, put your name in the next one. And so in this one, he sent one and he said, my name is. And then he put this code in there. And so what this guy Baber did was that he used AI to generate a list of 71 million possible 13 letter names. And then he used details of the Zodiac killer based on witness descriptions. He cross checked those against military, marriage, census, and other public records. It took him nine months, he said, and he narrowed it down to 150, 85 to 14. And then he said. To just one person, and he said the name that he found buried in the code was Marvin Merrill. And this guy who. This was Marvin Margolis. This was his, like, name that he adopted. He changed his name and he moved to the Midwest. And so he says, like, this is the guy and the code is based off of. You know how there's like, often, like a word that is, like, central to the cipher said. Yeah, sure, like a key word, right? That. That word was Elizabeth. The Black Dahlia's name was Elizabeth Short. And so they've kind of been looking into this whole thing in various sort of circumstances and overlapping things. He did end up moving back to Northern California. He lived in Santa Clara, which is a bit of a ways from where those things happened, which was like, out at, like, Lake Berryessa and things like that, about 70 miles away. And they found in his house a sketch. And maybe I can send this to you. Let me see if I can get this. They found a sketch his son gave them of a woman they say looks like she's, you know, cut off at the waist and, like, has a distorted nipple and things like that. And it says Elizabeth. That was a painting that he drew and stuff like that. And they think, you know, oh, that's her. And that embedded in it is the word Zodiac, which they think may be related to the hotel where he killed her, because she was famously killed in one location and then laid out in a different one altogether, and they think that may be where, or he thinks that's where she was killed, and that's why he used the name Zodiac. So I've just sent you the picture. I don't think that this looks as crazy as they say it does. And also the sun says that pretty cool. He did have a girlfriend named Elizabeth around that time, they say. The markings on it, I don't know. I don't think it looks like a nipple is destroyed or anything like that. Like, it just looks like a picture of a topless woman to me. [01:49:51] Speaker A: Zoom in. [01:49:53] Speaker B: It doesn't look like the Black Dahlia in any way. [01:49:56] Speaker A: No, no. [01:49:57] Speaker B: Right. Like, I don't know about that, but I will say, if anything, there's a solid amount of connection to her. And we know that, like, he did date her. That's not untrue. There's a degree of, like, connection here. And I'm like, okay, maybe. Or he heard that his girlfriend was killed horribly and, you know, had things in his home that might reference that. Right. Like, I can see how you might fixate on something like that. He was a Marine, and he apparently, because of his trauma there, things like that, became pretty maladjusted and was released from the military with on, like, 50% disability because of the trauma that he experienced that made him ragey and violent and things like that. So. Issues. Yeah, for sure. [01:50:59] Speaker A: It. What calls to mind for me is the episode we did years back when you. You proved that I was a murderer, Right? [01:51:07] Speaker B: Yes, this very much. I thought of that exactly. Because one of the things. And. And I had a lot of questions about this, and I looked at Reddit to see what people were saying about it, and they all had very similar questions to me. Right. So if you know things about these killings. Right. Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia, cut in half. Right. A big grin cut into her face, mutilated her, you know, one of her breasts removed, things like that. A chunk of her thigh. Really brutal. And then moved to this location where people would find her, you know, out in the open, where a mom and her child were, like, walking by and found the body. So really gruesome, really personal kind of attack here. Whereas the Zodiac killings, which happened in Northern California, the guy, largely, aside from one of the killings, just walked up and, like, shot people and then walked away. Like, he wasn't. He didn't torture them. He didn't, you know, cut them into pieces. He didn't stand there and watch them die. He didn't do anything precise and leave them, you know, out and things. [01:52:22] Speaker A: He returned to the scene, stopped them. [01:52:24] Speaker B: Right. Like, he just killed them, walked away, and then started writing letters about it. Right. So the mos are completely different in these cases, which is pretty unusual when it comes to serial killers to just, like, entirely change. Like, what is he getting out of it? [01:52:43] Speaker A: Right, which, of course, is why you've got to change up your mo, Right? [01:52:48] Speaker B: Yep, there is that. But clearly, once he changed up his mo, he wanted them to know it was the same guy. He was wet bandits Ing it. Right? Like, he wanted them to know that this was. These were all done by him. So he clearly wasn't changing it up for the purpose of, like, not getting caught or whatever. Like, this was an entirely new thing. So that seems odd. And obviously, completely different areas, although he did kind of live in that general vicinity. But also, one of the issues here is that he's working backwards, right? So he was narrowing down his code, and this is the. Nobody else brought this up, but I think that this is important, too. They're assuming that whatever he wrote after my name is was his name, Right? He could have just been like, fuck off, clowns. Like, we don't know that it actually was a name because we haven't taken apart that cipher. So for one, he's operating off the assumption that this is in good faith. He actually put his name in this. For two, he narrowed these things down working with existing information. Right? So he picked the person sort of out of the pool of people that it could have been. Right. And then he's working backwards from there with everything else here. So every connection that he's making is like, what I did with you is going well. And then also he did this, and then also he did this and making these, like, connections. That. To me, the only one that feels like, okay, this might be on to something is that he did bring back a bayonet. And one of the murders in. In the Zodiac case was committed with what appeared to be something like a bayonet, and the other. So there were two people, and the woman died, and the man survived. So he was able to say, you know, he's. It was some sort of bayonet situation. And Marvin Merrill did bring back a Japanese Nagoya Type 30 bayonet from World War II. And on the handle of that bayonet, there are symbols, at least one of which does look like one of the symbols in the zodiac letters. [01:55:11] Speaker A: See that? [01:55:12] Speaker B: So that's the. That's the. That's the one thing that makes me go, okay, that's interesting. Everything else feels like working backwards and just going like, well, we know that he was very violent because he got. He discharged from the military for it. [01:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:55:28] Speaker B: I mean, you can't forgot that. Right? Like, these kinds of things are, like, extremely circumstantial. And his sons, who did offer up this stuff, like the painting and the. The bayonet, like, they. At least one of them is like, I'm helping, but I don't think he did this. [01:55:48] Speaker A: There is absolutely no chance the purpose still alive. [01:55:52] Speaker B: No. He died of cancer in 93. [01:55:55] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. [01:55:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So can't ask him. No. But, yeah, the handle of this bayonet is the only thing that makes me go, huh. But again, it could be coincidence. You know, the Baber does want to, like, test it, see if there's any DNA on it, because obviously if it has, that's the DNA of the people that were stabbed. That's your smoking gun right there. But again, that could just be a coincidence. Like, the other guy could have been in World War II as well. You know, doesn't. [01:56:29] Speaker A: I mean, this isn't the first time somebody has solved the zodiac killings. [01:56:33] Speaker B: Oh, no, it happens all the time. Yeah, it's constant. That's, I think, why so many people are so skeptical of this. Like, when I went on Reddit, there was like, maybe two people who thought this was persuasive. [01:56:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:56:48] Speaker B: I just sent you a picture of the bayonet compared to one of the symbols as well, so you can have a little look. See there? [01:56:59] Speaker A: Thank you. That's compelling. [01:57:04] Speaker B: It is, right? Like, I mean, at the end of the day, it kind of looks like an eight in a circle, which, you know, is not the most unique thing in the world. And you wouldn't think of it unless you had all of these other sort of circumstantial things going on. So, like, taking that picture, for example, and being like, oh, it says Elizabeth on it, and it has this naked woman and blah, blah. But like, his son was like, he was dating a woman named Elizabeth. Like, you know, so if you take it without all the Other circumstantial stuff. It's just a bayonet a guy brought back from Japan. [01:57:40] Speaker A: Exactly. It's compelling, but only in context of lots of other kind of isolated things that don't really linger. [01:57:50] Speaker B: Exactly. So I don't know. I'm. I'm curious if other people. Honest, this is the one time I will ever say this, but there's a Los Angeles Times article about it, and it makes no connections really, at all to this. And the better article, and everybody on Reddit says this too, the better article is the one in the Daily Mail. It actually explains, you know, the connections that are being made and shows the pictures and stuff like that. So if you want these details, the. [01:58:18] Speaker A: Daily Mail in the UK and the Daily Mail in the States, different things. Are we talking about the same Daily Mail? [01:58:22] Speaker B: This is uk. This is Daily Mail. I think there is a Daily Mail us, But it is. It's the same thing. It's just an arm of Daily Mail uk. So it's the same tabloid either way. But they actually. They have, like, the details that show the connections that are being made here. And there's a website for the podcast that shows how that. How he used the AI, the. How the cipher works and all this stuff, like the very technical details of all those kinds of things. So, you know, the news and everything are acting like this is very compelling. Seems like people who are true crime fans think less so. [01:59:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And like I said, after our DB Cooper experience, I think I'm less inclined to immediately trust that, like. Oh, just because the media is reporting it. [01:59:10] Speaker A: I am wildly unconventional. [01:59:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds. There's even, like, there's a drawing, you know, there's a famous drawing, crime scene drawing of what one of the witnesses described the zodiac is looking at. And it's put next to a picture of the guy and it's like it's. They look alike because he's wearing glasses. If you took the glasses off of him, I don't think that these pictures would look alike at all. And so, like, there's a lot of, I think, just kind of your brain leading you to these things because you already know these details. [01:59:49] Speaker A: Pattern recognition, searching for patterns where there aren't any. [01:59:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's precisely it. This whole thing is offering, operating off this. I'm gonna send you that side by side so that you can see it as well. Tell me if I'm wrong, if you think these are indisputably the same man or not. And Obviously, it's from somebody's memory, you know, but to me, these don't look like the same guy. It just looks like two guys who happen to be wearing glasses. [02:00:17] Speaker A: No, you have sent me two pictures. One a drawing, one a photo. There is very little about them other than the glasses and the hair. [02:00:26] Speaker B: But, yeah, it's like the hairline, which is pretty standard for men of that age. Kind of the w. Hairline. [02:00:33] Speaker A: You could not get a conviction based on that. You could. That. That would go nowhere in a court of law. [02:00:41] Speaker B: Exactly. And I think, you know, people say, oh, that's a pretty close drawing. Like, no, you're just seeing two men in glasses. You know, I could show you a black and white photo, right? Yeah, exactly. Be like, yeah, that's definitely Mark. For sure. Your jawline is closer to that guy than this is, you know, but, yeah, I don't know. We'll see. I'll keep listening to the podcast probably on 2x speed, because that man's drunken voice is real difficult, and see if I'm more convinced as it goes along. But it's interesting because. And the podcast acknowledges this. This guy, you know, is the. Is so sure of himself, which I love. Yeah, it's the. He's annoyingly so. You know, it's just like, very much like I am 100% right. Everything I do is correct. You know, my pattern recognition is flawless. You know, this stuff. And it's like that thing where, like, I think a lot of us neurodivergent people, like, you know, they say that, like, neurodivergent people often have, like a. A sense. Like a overblown sense of justice. [02:01:54] Speaker A: Sure, right. [02:01:55] Speaker B: And so moral. Like, we tend to think where, yeah, we're right, we're moral, we're whatever. And that is not always true, but it is a strong conviction that we might have. And it feels like his. The way that he is framing this is because I'm autistic. I'm right. Like, that's basically how he is framed. This, like, almost word for word. [02:02:16] Speaker A: Again, much like the drawing. That is not. [02:02:20] Speaker B: Not how this works. You know, like, and. And so I think his confidence in this and people's sort of understanding of autism. Autism Spectrum disorders, making me like, oh, he's like some sort of, like, savant. Like, he's clearly. Yeah. [02:02:34] Speaker A: AI. [02:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And the. The investigators and stuff have been very quick to be like, I'm convinced and whatnot. But I'm like, also, they're cops. They're bad at figuring out this stuff. So, like, I don't know. We'll see what other people end up thinking in sort of the field as we. [02:02:57] Speaker A: We shall see it develop again. I'm resolutely unconvinced. I think it's just an autistic guy with a podcast, but we'll see. [02:03:06] Speaker B: He's not the one with the podcast. Podcast is about his research. The drunk guy is an entirely different person. But let us know what you think if you read it. Of course. I will post this in the show notes slash blog so that you guys can read it for yourself. And let me know if you think it's convincing. If I'm. You know, I've been burned too many times before and I'm not willing to accept it, or if you think it's similarly unconvincing. Happy to hear that from you. [02:03:35] Speaker A: And I want movies that are gonna put me in a very confusing place emotionally, please. That's. I would really, definitely that. Really, really enjoy that over the next week. If you could just do that for your man, for your guy Marco, that would be lovely. [02:03:49] Speaker B: Beautiful. Yes. And also, we forgot to mention, hey, ask questions. [02:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. [02:03:55] Speaker B: Completely. [02:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:03:56] Speaker B: Slipped our minds, but ask us things. [02:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, we're gonna do Ask jog this week, but we'll do it in a week or two. But we. We really want you to put anything you might want to know of us either on one of our social posts or email it jack or gravesmail.com and. [02:04:12] Speaker B: Nothing to be clear. Not necessarily. It can be about us, but not necessarily about us. Like, if you. If there's been like a. Is there a sea monster you would like me to investigate? Like, is, you know, if you are. Are looking for, you know, information on a cult leader you found hard to find, like, you know, anything. What's on your mind, Ask us about it. [02:04:35] Speaker A: Yes. Nicely put. And may the end of 2025 be better than the start of it was. And even. And that. That. That stands. Even if you had a fucking great start to the year, I hope the end of the year is even better than that. [02:04:51] Speaker B: Amen. Right on board with that. Yes. May it be blessed and spooky. [02:04:57] Speaker A: Stay spooky.