Episode 181

May 06, 2024


Ep. 181: toxic landscapes & extreme protest

Hosted by

Mark Lewis Corrigan Vaughan
Ep. 181: toxic landscapes & extreme protest
Jack of All Graves
Ep. 181: toxic landscapes & extreme protest

May 06 2024 | 02:04:43


Show Notes

This week Corrigan tells Marko all about the toxic waste dotting the landscape of the U.S. and how climate change is making it worse, and we dive into some extreme forms of protest people have undertaken and why they did it.


[0:00] Corrigan tells Marko about toxic superfund sites
[27:55] Mark saw Bruce Springsteen who is surprisingly popular in Wales
[35:00] Corrigan's surreal Richard Dreyfuss experience and weekend from Hell
[54:46] Thursday we'll have a new Ko-Fi exclusive episode of JoAG Fancave on The Strangers, and we've got a watch along coming Saturday, May 25th!
[60:27] What we watched! (The Strangers, Basket Case, Godzilla Minus One, Inglourious Basterds, Dead of Night (aka Deathdream), Resurrect Dead: The Mystery of the Toynbee Tiles, Love Lies Bleeding)
[90:40] We discuss extreme protests

Stuff we referenced:

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:04] Speaker A: So climate change is a bitch, right? [00:00:07] Speaker B: Oh, fuck me. Are we going straight in on that? [00:00:10] Speaker A: Are we going straight in on that? Yeah. Oops. I accidentally made this thing small and I don't know how I did it. [00:00:16] Speaker B: No, Quebec, which is of course what she said. [00:00:21] Speaker A: Anyways, so yeah, climate change, not a new topic. [00:00:26] Speaker B: I fucking hate it. Right, let's just get that straight away clear right out the gate, right out the trap. I fucking hate it. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Fucking hate it. We've talked quite a bit about our many anxieties regarding climate change and all the big corporations that are happily racing towards climate catastrophe with a big yolo vibe and no concerns for those of us without apocalypse bunkers and what we're gonna do. [00:00:47] Speaker B: And that really cool and fun kind of sleight of hand that's happened where the onus has been placed on individual fucking. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Separating. [00:00:56] Speaker A: We're supposed to fix it. Yeah. Right. You know, that's. That's the issue. Cool. Yeah. Today I'm going to bring you a nice little intersection of man made disaster and how climate change is making it even worse. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Great. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Marco, have you ever heard. Oh, go ahead. You seemed like you had. [00:01:15] Speaker B: No, I'm. I've got loads of space for more angst. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Good. Yeah. I think it's time we introduce a little more anxiety into your world, into my world, into our listeners world. [00:01:25] Speaker B: I'm so ready for it. [00:01:28] Speaker A: Well, have you ever heard of a superfund site? [00:01:33] Speaker B: Superfund? [00:01:35] Speaker A: Yes. Super fund. [00:01:37] Speaker B: No, I haven't. I can only assume it's like a gofundme. It's like a crowdsourcing kind of affair. Is that what we're talking? [00:01:43] Speaker A: No, we are not talking that. I think the first time I ever heard the term was when I went to point Pleasant, West Virginia to do research on the mothman. And Keo and I were given a tour of the former TNT area where the sightings happened by the de facto town historian Chris Reiser, who's this great young guy with an absolute passion for point pleasant and who now is in charge of the revitalization of their downtown. So super knowledgeable guy. And he was explaining that the TNT area, which is now like a big park, essentially, you know, people go hiking there and all that kind of stuff, used to be a superfund site, which is basically a place that has been made so dangerously toxic it requires massive government intervention to be cleaned up enough not to be harmful to humans, animals and the environment. [00:02:38] Speaker B: This is in the States? [00:02:39] Speaker A: Yes. So this is a government thing. I'll get into how that happened. But yes, across standing for like TNT. Like the explosive, right? [00:02:49] Speaker B: Fight. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Cool. I don't know what TNT stands for, but it is exactly that. It is the thing you think TNT is. It was like a military site back during World War two. And then afterwards they, you know, emptied it all out and everything, let nature have it again. But they had to clean up a whole bunch of stuff. And now you would never know that there was anything there but a forest. But it's also like, man walking through there is scary because there's like ticks and snakes and like, you know, tons of bugs and mosquitoes and all kinds of stuff. And you're just like, everything can get me while I'm here. Keo got like three ticks while we were walking through there. But anyway. [00:03:33] Speaker B: And if there's any. Any boffins just shouting at the, you know, your audio device. TNT is an explosive substance and is an abbreviation for trinitrotoluene. [00:03:45] Speaker A: There we go. So that's what the TNT area was. You can imagine how abandoning a place that was full of whatever is used to make that would leave some toxic shit behind if you're not careful. [00:03:58] Speaker B: Yes, of course. [00:03:59] Speaker A: So there are an alarming number of these Superfund sites throughout the United States. In fact, my beloved state of New Jersey has more Superfund sites than any other site, any other state. Which is disconcerting because if you look at a us map, we aren't even close to one of the largest states on this landmass. [00:04:19] Speaker B: That kind of lands with me, I'm sure. I don't know from where or when, but I seem to have read that somewhere that New Jersey does have a lot of toxic. It's monkey gone to heaven, isn't it? [00:04:32] Speaker A: It's that song by pixies. Who knew that was so educational. [00:04:37] Speaker B: That's what it was. Got killed by 100 pounds of sludge in New Jersey. Yeah, there you go. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Never really thought about it before. I've listened to that song a million times. Never made the connection. But until 1980, the US didn't really have like a great plan for dealing with the byproducts of things like factory runoff or the radioactive remnants of our atomic tests. During World War two, regulation was shoddy and easy to circumvent and people were often finding out that they lived in. They weren't finding out they lived in toxic environments until everyone in their family developed various forms of cancer. And a lot of this happened because ownership of toxic sites was constantly changing hands over the years with little to no oversight. Like, reading about various of these. I'm only going to talk about, like, two sites here, but reading about, like, these all over the United States. As I was researching, it was like, so many of the cases of these were just kind of like. And then this company sold it to someone else, and then they sold it to someone else, and then they sold it to someone else, and then eventually there was nothing useful in the dirt anymore, so they just buried it. And, like, it's. It's a constant changeover. So, yeah. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Would these sites have a built on, like, developed on with property? [00:05:50] Speaker A: We're gonna talk about that. [00:05:53] Speaker B: I think there's about to be a weird fucking Joag intersection coming up, but do go on. [00:05:57] Speaker A: Okay, interesting. All right, well, let's see. So, in 1980, the comprehensive Environmental response, Compensation, and liability act was introduced, also known as CERCLA, but more commonly known as the Superfund program. In the time since, the program has identified some 600 contaminants that are sort of in various places that are harmful to us and require this kind of mitigation. But there are a few main things they're usually looking at, and four when it comes to these Superfund sites, as you probably guess, lead is the most common contaminant found at Superfund. [00:06:35] Speaker B: I want to say, like mercury. [00:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yep. Mercury is among them. But, you know, we'll kind of get into that in a bit. But lead is present at a whopping 43% of superfund sites, so that's a lot. And we've discussed the effects of lead several times on this podcast, but the TL doctor version is that it's horrendously toxic, whether inhaled or ingested, and it has hugely deleterious effects on both mind and body. Yes, there is no concentration of lead that is safe for humans, period. And it used to be fucking everywhere. [00:07:14] Speaker B: There is. There is some being written about how lead is present in. Do do do do do do do do. Vapes. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, vapes. Your Stanley cups have lead in them. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking insane to me, what with, you know, the kids all loving their vapes. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Uh, I think it's. It's, you know, the behavioral kind of potential behavioral that comes with that are gonna be super interesting in a generation or two. [00:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly that. Because, you know, amongst the things that they obviously haven't been studying long enough to really know for sure. But lead is considered something that may. It definitely contributes to behavioral issues of various forms, but also may contribute to an increased amount of, like, adhd. So there's already a lot of us who, you know, having kids vaping on leadful vapes may just increase the amount that that's the case. But like I said, there's no amount of lead that you can safely ingest. Every single bit. Like the tiniest proportion of it literally lowers your iq. It is an insanely dangerous thing to. [00:08:26] Speaker B: Just a little ingest. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Like the tiniest, tiniest bits of lead are immediately making an impact on you, so you don't want to encounter it at all. But of course, as we discussed when we talked about the lead crime theory, like for an entire generation or two generations, like baby boomers and early Gen Xers that lead in the gas, breathing in that lead. Yeah. Has, you know, well, we all know what boomer brain is, so this is the kind of thing that shows up in a lot of these super fun sites. The second contaminant is dioxin, which is a byproduct of various manufacturing processes, including paper pulp, bleaching, incineration and pesticides. Manufacturing. And dioxin, according to the EPA, is cancer causing. It can cause reproductive and developmental problems, it can cause damage to the immune system, and it can interfere with your hormones. And my hormones already are like all weird and out of balance, so don't need that. I don't know, maybe it would fix it. Maybe I need some dioxin. Dioxin does actually, where we do get it in our day to day lives is basically animal products. So if you eat meat, fish, things like that, dairy, dioxin is in smaller amounts in those things. You don't want a ton of it. But it does appear in stuff that we eat because there are toxins everywhere. And asbestos, of course, is another major issue that leads to places being made superfund sites. Asbestos used to be in regular use for construction, in large part because it's fire retardant. But as anyone who watches daytime tv here in the US knows, it also causes a little thing called mesothelioma, an aggressive cancer that is very often incurable. And for those who are not american, FYI, here we have constant commercials from various law firms for people who suffer from mesothelioma to tell them how they can get sort of financial compensation for that because it came from the asbestos in their homes. And of course there is radiation, one of the most deadly possible contaminants we can come into contact with. Radiation can lead to DNA damage, cancer, burns, cardiovascular disease, birth defects and mortality. [00:10:48] Speaker B: Still birth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:50] Speaker A: It is bad all the way down and we all know, this radiation is terrifying. And we've spread it around willy nilly in a lot of places here in the states. In many of these cases, one of the most important factors is what's called soil bioavailability. You've probably heard the term bioavailability before. It just refers to how much of something we can take in, whether by ingesting, inhaling it or coming into contact with it. So in soil, this is how much of a contaminant gets absorbed by it. In many super fun situations, we're dealing with contaminated soil and its runoff into bodies of water. Our main sort of conveyors of toxic shit are sediment, air, groundwater and soil. And often the ways that this happen are just deeply, deeply stupid. In a documentary I watched a while ago, I think it was atomic home front, but it might have been a different one. They talked about how truckers would be transporting radioactive soil, but not be told that they were transporting radioactive soil and it'd just be in open trucks. So they're just spreading it around and then they'd take it home and they'd use it in their gardens. So they were just low key poisoning their families and neighbors because they had no idea what they were transporting. Which also makes it impossible for us to know how widespread this shit is. Like, who knows where that stuff ended up. [00:12:13] Speaker B: This predates there are laws now. Please tell me there are laws now. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we'll get into the law, but I'm just gonna say outright like, you know, I didn't go a ton into this, but we consistently find out about new places that have been like this, you know, since the forties, fifties or whatever that just no one ever told anyone about. So, like, they discovered these places later on. Usually when like, people who live in communities start to get sick and notice patterns and are like, hey, what's the deal here? And then they uncover massive cover ups of this kind of stuff. So, fuck. [00:12:53] Speaker B: There's an incredible coincidence about to come up. I'm gonna tell you. Okay? But I'm gonna let you finish. [00:12:58] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So probably the biggest toxic shit show that led to the development of the superfund program was the love canal waste dump, which there's actually a new PBS. I know, right? There's a new PBS documentary that just came out about it. Poisoned ground, I think is what it's called. It's on american experience. So if you have the PBS app, you can just look it up. It's also on the PBS YouTube. But as the cutesy name indicates, love canal was not meant to be a toxic waste dump in the early 20th century, it was actually supposed to be a quaint place planned community in Niagara Falls, New York, named after its planner, William T. Love. According to the EPA, his idea was to build a canal between the upper and lower Niagara rivers in order to cheaply supply power to the community. This never panned out, though, due to. Due in part to larger fluctuations in the economy and in part to good old Nikola Tesla figuring out alternating current, which allowed for electricity to be transmitted over greater distances. So you didn't need to be right next to a gigantic waterfall to get cheap electricity anymore. Taking some of the luster out of the whole idea. So in the twenties. In the twenties, the ditch that was the ditch that was the canal was turned into a landfill. But not just. But not just any landfill. It became a dump site for industrial chemicals. And that's not necessarily damning in and of itself. This is often what we do with chemicals. Pop them in the water, you gotta dump them somewhere, gotta put em somewhere. And how smart that is is certainly debatable, but it's not an uncommon practice. The problem came when, in the 1950s, the hooker chemical company covered the landfill with dirt and sold it to the city for a dollar. The city then built a whole ass neighborhood on top of it with 100 homes and a school population of working class families. [00:15:05] Speaker B: I fucking knew. [00:15:08] Speaker A: In the time hooker had owned the landfill, they dumped 22,000 tons of chemical waste, including, according to timeline.com comma, polychlorinated biphenyls, dioxin and pesticides. This was, as EPA administrator Eckerd see Beck put it, a ticking time bomb which exploded in 1978 when record rainfall caused an unprecedented amount of toxic leaching. He writes of visiting love canal at the time, corroding waste disposal drums could be seen breaking up through the grounds of backyards. Trees and gardens were turning black and dying. One entire swimming pool had been popped up from its foundation, a flow float now on a small sea of chemicals. Puddles of noxious substances were pointed out to me by the residents. Some of these puddles were in their yards. Some were in their basements, others yet were on the school grounds. Everywhere the air had a faint choking smell. Children returned from play with burns on their hands and faces. [00:16:09] Speaker B: Fuck. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Fuck. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Fuck. [00:16:15] Speaker A: Horrendous. And all of this was really just exposing something that had actually been happening for a long time. As they looked into this, the state of New York found an extremely high rate of miscarriages and birth defects in the area. It was discovered yeah. It was discovered that a large proportion of love canal residents had high white blood cell counts, which can be an indicator of leukemia. Other residents were suffering from various ailments of seeming mystery serious origin. One young boy died of kidney disease, and his mother, a scientist researched and found that chemical exposure could cause the minimal lesion nephrosis from which he'd suffered. And it's worth noting that all of this was basically discovered by housewives and moms, who then led the fight to get the government to recognize what was going on and do something about it. It was this group of women from the Love Canal Homeowners association who got President Carter and the EPA's attention, leading not only to addressing love canal, but the creation shortly thereafter of the superfund program. And a fun little tidbit in this horrendous story is that the government fucked up in underestimating the women of Niagara Falls. They thought that it was the men who would work up a fuss and cause a scene. So they deliberately had meetings and issued press releases in the middle of the day when men would be at work so that they wouldn't get all belligerent about it. But as such, they left them all open for a bunch of moms who had lost children or had sick children or were worried about what might happen to their children. And as resident Patty Grenze, who was pregnant at the time, explained, that was a mistake, because hell hath no fury like a woman guarding her children. And that didn't stop the New York Department of Health from laboring. The labeling the results of a health survey useless housewife data, that's the state government that said, that's what they call it. Useless. I mean, yeah, that's a good question. But the EPA study validated everything that the women had been saying, and these White Housewives also recognized that they were getting attention specifically for being pretty white women. And later, Lois Gibbs said that in Griffin Manor, where you have moms with children who are wonderful human beings but happen to be black, and renters as opposed to homeowners, they're treated entirely differently, and in part, sometimes intentionally so. Let me just say I stan a 1970s intersectional government fighting housewife Queen. Good for. [00:18:53] Speaker B: Good for her we must. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Eventually, over 900 families were moved out of the area, some of them receiving settlements from the Occidental chemical Company, which had purchased hooker in the sixties. But most importantly, we got the Superfund legislation. And as I said, since then, there's over a thousand Superfund sites throughout the United States. And certainly this didn't solve everything. Still have a huge toxic waste problem, of course, because imagine the US not being shitty about stuff like this, especially in poor areas. So there are tons of places all over the US that have been fighting the EPA to take cleanup seriously for decades. And like I said, New Jersey has the most superfund sites in the US. I think there's 114, and four of them are in the city of Newark. Newark is the largest city in the state and also struggles from being consistently fucked over in its many lower income neighborhoods. If there is a way to screw them over, we're just constantly finding ways to do it. In 2012, Hurricane Sandy swept through and devastated many parts of the state, and people in Newark's ironbound neighborhood faced flooding from the passaic river that had, in some places, reached first floor windows of homes. An NBC article describes a woman finding an oil sleep and dead fish sloshing around in her basement. She said that it smelled like poop and chemicals, which is a pretty gnarly combo, at least when my basement floods, it just smells like wet basement. [00:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Poop or chemicals, fine, right? [00:20:28] Speaker A: But both. [00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Yikes. As the NBC article explains, quote, crammed among the ironbound's 55,000 residents, who live mostly in apartment buildings and multifamily housing, are factories and warehouses, a power plant, chemical refineries, the state's largest garbage incinerator, and a superfund site so contaminated with hazardous waste that the federal government Environmental Protection Agency is authorized to investigate and force polluters to clean up. Since the 1980s, activists have demanded the government deal with dioxin contamination in the area, which had been hidden from the public for decades previous and had gotten there as a byproduct of the production of agent orange in the fifties and sixties. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:21:11] Speaker A: Fucking hell. The Diamond Alkali company had literally been dumping dioxin into trenches that flowed into the Passaic every other week. They were also just transporting it in and out of the area in trucks that were tracking dioxin through the neighborhoods. The EPA has also found that the Passaic river is contaminated with thousands of pounds of mercury, PCB's, and other heavy metals that have embedded in the sediment. So just getting all the poisons, everything in the Passaic river. The former chemical plant in the ironbound not only is full of dangerous toxic waste, but is also located in a spot particularly vulnerable to climate change. I mean, obviously we know this from my experiences over the past four years. This house that rarely flooded in the 70 ish years that my grandmother lived in it. Now regularly floods from constant extreme weather events that keep happening, and the ironbound is 8 miles from me. Theyre getting hit by all the same things. The $1.8 billion cleanup of the Superfund site was hampered in part by the Trump administrations decision to abandon plans that factored climate change risks into superfund planning and remediation. Just like we dont need that, dont bother with it. And even the Obama era plans that they have are extremely slow going, potentially taking decades. It's one thing to take decades to remediate something like the TNT area in West Virginia, which is a big empty space where no one lives, but an entirely different thing to take decades to fix. The toxicity in the most densely packed neighborhood in Newark, which is, again, mostly low income and is next to a regularly flooding river, New Jersey senator Cory Booker called the area New Jersey's biggest crime scene due to the corporate greed that caused it to get this bad. As a result of the toxicity of pretty much every element of the environment, one in four children in Newark has asthma, and residents face high rates of lead poisoning and chronic diseases that are linked to long term pollution. It's been over 30 years since the ironbound was declared a superfund site. And not only has the cleanup effort barely begun, according to NJ.com, in February of this year, the cleanup has pretty much stalled while they try to figure out which of the corporations that polluted it are responsible for how much of the burden to pay for it. And this could be tied up for years, just these corporations passing the buck back and forth, trying to determine how they can weasel out of paying their fair share of it. So this is obviously a big problem with the idea of these superfund sites is that they are, the government isn't paying to clean them up. Right. They are forcing the corporations to pay for it. But corporations have a ton of money to just keep on challenging this, you know, and especially because I said they've changed hands so many times that it's like, there's not, you can't just point to one place and be like, you did this, you clean it up. [00:24:13] Speaker B: And is there an element of, you know, running out the clock legally? As much as you possibly can until original complainants just die anyway. [00:24:22] Speaker A: Right? Exactly. Like there's, there's a lot of basically abusing the legal system in order to make it so that they don't have to actually accomplish anything. So, like, like I said, it's been over 30 years, and very little mitigation has been done to do anything about this while, you know, just a month or two ago on the. On the news, I was watching some poor woman who lived in Newark, near the Passaic, like, just frustrated because the whole. Her entire house had flooded. And she was like, we have been talking about this for decades, and no one's doing anything. The passake's not gonna stop flooding. You know, like, we need for all of this stuff to be dealt with. And like I said, this is just one such example of a thing that's happening all over this country. And I assume it's happening in your country and in various others as well, because capitalism's gonna. Capitalism. Wherever it's allowed to. Capitalism, sure. [00:25:18] Speaker B: So. To why this has landed so hard with me today, right. And how delighted I am that you've chosen today to tell this story seemingly out of fucking no way. Right? Last week on Blue sky, I'm a massive fan of the now almost defunct band Dead Kennedys. Right. You know, I love fucking amazing. And last year on last week on Blue sky, out of nowhere, I shared one of my favorite tracks of theirs, a track called Cesspools in Eden. Right? And it's such a great track. It is just. It's menacing, and it is uneasy, and it tells a fucking really horrific story. And you've just explained to me what the fucking song is about. It's about exactly this. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Incredible. [00:26:01] Speaker B: It's about this. If I may, can I quote some lyrics, please. Poison is bubbling beneath your dream home buried there years before kid runs in crying from playing in the garden mommy, I burned my hands what's making our eyes so itchy? Don't rub them, they'll swell up. Oh, uh oh. Oh. It's a big waist dump. Um. It goes on and everything you fucking described. Groundwater's poisoned air stings like hell the lines for doctors grow long over martinis the company laughs we don't owe you a damn thing. But what about all these fainting spells? How do you like a lick from my open sores? And, oh, oh, I are our baby still but on and it goes on, man. It's incredible. Um. So you found the proof why your cancer rate has shot up? What are you gonna do when we've got all the cards? Times, beach, rocky flats, love canal and bhopal. Merry Christmas, hostages from the folks that care. It's literally about what you've just described. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Literally mentions love canal. That's wild. [00:27:01] Speaker B: Just described fucking amazing. [00:27:04] Speaker A: I am so glad that I could clear that up for you. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Listen to the song, please. Listen to the song. It's incredible. [00:27:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. I will. I enjoy the dead Kennedy, so I'm sure I will like it. But also be upset that this is a thing that is still happening. [00:27:19] Speaker B: And that was 1986, by the way. [00:27:22] Speaker A: It's so depressing. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:27:27] Speaker A: Yes, please do. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:27:32] Speaker A: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:27:37] Speaker B: The way I whispered the word sex. Cannibal received. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Worst comes to worst. Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking. I'm gonna leg it. [00:27:49] Speaker A: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:27:51] Speaker B: I think you feel great about it. It's time to take your medicine, isn't it? It's time to take your medicine. Fucking come and take your medicine. You don't want to, but you have to because it's good for you. It doesn't taste nice. Maybe pinch your nose if it helps. Maybe rub your. Rub your throat a little bit as it goes down. Maybe we'll give you a little sweetie afterwards to keep a smile on your face. But you gotta take your medicine. [00:28:20] Speaker A: It's like the most menacing possible way to say, I will give you candy. That was definitely, like, lured into a van instead of, like, a doctor's office vibes. It's partially because of the register of your voice today, too, from your adventures. [00:28:38] Speaker B: A little lower and a little deeper, but still as heart failed and as welcoming as ever. Welcome to Jack of all graves, where you have to take your fucking medicine. [00:28:50] Speaker A: Indeed. You're here. We're a day late. It's been an adventurous weekend for both of us. But you were in Wales yesterday, seeing the boss. [00:29:01] Speaker B: I was in Wales yesterday alongside all of Wales by the fucking. Look at him. Seriously, he packed, like 60, 70,000 people into a stadium. Incredible to see the opening night of Springsteen's european tour. It was first night. First night of his european leg. And it was, ah, it was fantastic. I mean, for a fucking guy, a 74 man, you'd never know him. The guy is 74 years old. And, you know, he only stopped playing because the Lord demanded he stopped playing. He would have gone on all fucking night, right? He would have gone on all goddamn night. [00:29:33] Speaker A: A thing that is crazy to me about Bruce Springsteen is that, like. I think it was an interview with Chris Martin where he was talking about coldplay of cold play. He was talking about how he eats and, like, it's no surprise that Chris Martin, who is married to goop, of course, eats like a crazy person. Right. But he said he got it from Bruce Springsteen, and it's like Bruce Springsteen eats like, 500 calories a day. I don't know how you can do that and, like, have the muscle and things like that that he does. Maybe he has one day a week where he, like, eats everything or something, but, like, how do you perform for 3 hours? [00:30:17] Speaker B: Is it. I don't know, whatever the fuck he's doing. And I'm more inclined to take a dietary advice off Springsteen than I am off Chris Martin like that. [00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Come on. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah. If. If I get to his age and I have half of the staying power and energy and charisma that he has, then I think I'll have done well. And, yeah, I tell you what. What did set it into context as well as I saw both my parents this week as well. They're 72 and 75, and they're no spring staining it, let me tell you. So, yes, the guy is, is, was, and remains an absolute force of nature. My first time seeing him, it was Allen's. I think he said fifth or 6th. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:31:01] Speaker B: Oh, listen, what you may or may not know about Alan is that he's been all about the boss entire life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's been super into Springsteen his whole life. So this was. [00:31:12] Speaker A: I find that, like. So because, like, Springsteen is, like, such an american artist, you know? [00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Like, he is America. Right? [00:31:21] Speaker B: Of course. [00:31:21] Speaker A: The working class american. And so the idea of, like, obviously with a crowd that huge, like, he definitely resonates elsewhere as well. But, like, the idea of, you know, brits, welshmen growing up their entire lives, like, being super into Springsteen is, like, kind of a funny concept to me, and I love it. [00:31:40] Speaker B: But do you know what was so heartening and so beautiful to see? A lot of kids. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Mmm. Nice. [00:31:45] Speaker B: A lot of kids. A lot of kids. A lot of people in, like, you know, red headbands. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:52] Speaker B: But. But kids. And, you know, not just kids who'd been dragged along by their fucking parents, actually. [00:31:58] Speaker A: There's. [00:32:00] Speaker B: Knew the fucking lyrics and were down the front belt and the fucking words out. He has some kind of unifying power to him. Absolutely. Yeah, it was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful gig. Beautiful to see. [00:32:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Definitely worth a little bit of sleepiness and grainy voice today. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, sometimes you gotta, don't you? I mean, you gotta. I'm certain I've said this before in the cast. But as you age and as you lay down roots and as you know, you can't just casually fuck off and do something spontaneous anymore. You've got to put the work in. You've got to really fucking. You got to fight for your right to party. [00:32:38] Speaker A: That's right. [00:32:40] Speaker B: I've coined that. That's never been said before. [00:32:42] Speaker A: Yeah, first time. [00:32:43] Speaker B: So, yes, I'm delighted I did because I can now take the boss off my list. [00:32:49] Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah. [00:32:52] Speaker B: I don't think I've got any other must see bands. I'd like to see system of a down before I die, if they can get it together to tour again properly. But I think that's pretty much it. I don't think I've got any others. Any other bucket list bands. [00:33:03] Speaker A: That's a really. Yeah, I mean, as I said, I think last week that, like, I saw Springsteen during the time when my friends and I were trying to see any, like, older dude who we thought about to die or whatever, and so I saw, like, Peter Gabriel and, you know, various people at that time that I was like, we saw sting, you know, various, like, old dudes that we wanted to see in that time. But I feel like a good chunk of the people who would be bucket list have probably already died, and then anyone who's contemporary, I just go see them went, like, now anyway, so it's not like a. I don't really have a bucket list anymore either, because if I really like someone, I just go see them now. [00:33:44] Speaker B: Yes. A good pick for a last chance would be Phil Collins. If you get the chance to see Phil Collins, you should probably do. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Isn't he done, though? I thought he quit, like, four years ago. [00:33:56] Speaker B: I've seen quite contemporary footage of him on stage. [00:34:00] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:34:00] Speaker B: And he's sat down the entire time and he looks fucked. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Cause I think he can't sing along with his physical ailments as well, so I think he's already done. Him and Rem are, too. That I had no warning that they were disappearing, and I will never get to see them, and it just makes me really upset. Like, Rem just all of a sudden was like, we're done. [00:34:23] Speaker B: I was like, yeah, that was a mischance for me. I actually had tickets to see Rem. Oh, man. But I broke up with the girl I was going with. [00:34:35] Speaker A: This is, like, a consistent issue for you, isn't it? [00:34:38] Speaker B: It is. Not anymore, but not anymore. [00:34:41] Speaker A: Yes, clearly. But for a time, this was an issue. I mean, the only time that ever happened to me was the killers. Me and Ben broke up and had tickets to the killers, but I got custody of the killers tickets, so I took my friend Kent with me to go see them. [00:34:59] Speaker B: In your face, Helms. [00:35:00] Speaker A: It was a great time. [00:35:02] Speaker B: Cool. [00:35:04] Speaker A: But I had kind of the opposite of your weekend. And now, rather than fighting for my right to party, I'm just not leaving the house anymore. I think she had a big one. [00:35:17] Speaker B: You saw Maron, didn't you? [00:35:18] Speaker A: I saw Mark Maron Thursday, saw the Decemberist Friday, and Richard Dreyfus Saturday. All were kind of busts. Oh, really? Yeah, it was a. Ooh. Mark Maron decided, for whatever reason, that he needed to do a bit in there, making fun of, like, people who are upset about Palestine. And I was like, I don't. Like, you could just not talk. You don't have to talk about this. There's no reason that you have to talk about this. And, like, he's a jewish comedian, and so naturally, a lot of the audience was jewish, but, like, I have lots of jewish friends, and none of them are Zionists. But his audience at this particular thing, because it's Moncler and there are, you know, your very centrist liberals was obviously very zionist, and they were all very for it. And it really dampened the mood being in a room of people who were, like, screaming and standing and applauding for him, making fun of people who are mad about what Israel is doing. And that. Yeah, ruined that evening. So I eventually just left, and I went and got a cookie. That did pay off, though, because the cookie place was closing, so they gave me an extra cookie, so. [00:36:32] Speaker B: Oh, did you walk out? Did you leave? [00:36:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I left. Yeah. I was like, yeah. I was like, I tried staying for a little while, and then I was just like, I'm just not having any fun. I'm just sitting here thinking about this. So I'm just gonna go and. Yeah, I got extra cookies, so that was great. Then went to see the Decembris with a friend of the cast, Anna, on Friday, and we had a great time having dinner and all that kind of stuff. But we get to this show and listen. The Decembrists are, like, clearly a band for middle aged people, right? They didn't have. [00:37:09] Speaker B: I can't say I've ever heard them. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Super middle aged band, like, you know, folky, whimsical stuff that, you know, people definitely over 40 are into. And for some reason, despite that, they did not prepare enough ada seating, disabled seating. So we get there, and they're like, oh, we don't have anywhere for you to sit. And I was like, well, I can't stand for a whole concert. Like, that's not really a negotiable. And so, like, other people showed up and also needed seating and stuff, and they, like, shoved us in a corner with no visibility. So it was just, like, behind everyone standing. Like, these tickets were $100 each, and they put us just sitting behind people so that we couldn't see the stage at all. I was like, okay, that's neat. That's a cool policy you've got here. So that was a little bit of. [00:38:11] Speaker B: A naught for two. [00:38:12] Speaker A: And then Mark went to the most surreal q and a situation with Richard Dreyfus on Saturday night that, like, slowly became, like, a hostage situation over the course of the night. [00:38:31] Speaker B: So, context. How many times have you seen Richard Dreyfus in person? [00:38:35] Speaker A: Never, if you recall. No. Remember I came to England. [00:38:40] Speaker B: The only one. Yeah. Okay. [00:38:41] Speaker A: And I was like, I'm going to like, he's the only living member of jaws. I would like to see him. So he was at the. For the love of horror. And then, like, a week before he canceled, so I did not get to meet him. Have never, you know, gotten a chance to. To see him in person until this moment. So, you know, Kyo saw that this event was happening, and there's, like, a meet and greet afterwards, you know, for, again, $100 for the meet and greet on top of the ticket to this thing. And Kio was like, we're doing this. You're finally just gonna get this bucket list thing taken care of. We're gonna go. We're gonna do it. And so we go. And listen, the thing about Richard Dreyfus is like, I know he has some kind of, like, old white guy views about things. You know, he regularly says he's, like, kind of a John cleese about things. You know, he says stuff regularly that you're like, just shut the fuck up, dude. Like. Like, let it go. But I was like, again, like, I'm a huge Jaws fan, so I just wanted to see the man in person. So there's first a screening of jaws, right? And this whole thing seems like it's framed. Like, okay, we're gonna watch Jaws, and then we're gonna have a conversation about Jaws with Richard Dreyfus. This is not what happens. We watch Jaws, and then they bring out this lady who is very old and apparently has been, like, interviewing Hollywood people for the past, like, 60 years, right? And, you know, so they're like, she's interviewed the likes of you know, Audrey Hepburn, she came up later as well. Like, you know, all these. Sophia Loren, he's like, everybody you can think of this pro. You'd think, yeah, right. Like, total pro. And so we're like, okay, great. Cause, like, we were both like, God, I hope this isn't, like, audience Q and a, because those are never good for anyone. It's the worst. So we're like, awesome. They brought out, like, a professional interviewer, and they're gonna have a discussion instead of us. Love that. So she comes and sits down and all that, and then he, you know, comes out, toddles out in his old man way or whatever's like, hey, you know, raising his arms up, like, yeah, I'm Richard Dreyfus sits down, and from the get go, the questions this woman is asking are, like. Like, nothing was. They start with. She's like, we're gonna show a clip. Some clips of some movies that you know and love Richard Dreyfus from. And I'm like, okay, sure, why not? Like, oh, fine. Thought this was about jaws, but sure. And so she shows this montage of clips that, like, must have been something that someone got, like, their, like, mildly tech savvy 14 year old nephew to do, or something like that, where it's like, these clips from his movies, but, like, none of them really have him in it. So, like, one of the clips in the montage was that you're gonna need a bigger boat moment, which is famously just Roy Scheider and Robert Shaw. And, like, for a brief moment, Richard Dreyfus's butt is visible in the background because he's standing facing the other direction. And, like, all the clips are like this, where it's, like, a scene that he's vaguely in, but, like, he's not saying anything. He's not at the center of these scenes. Like, why were these chosen? I feel like whoever did it wasn't sure who Richard Dreyfus was. And so they were like, I hope one of these is him. So that was, like, already kind of an inauspicious start. And she starts, like, asking questions, but, like, more things that are, like, a window for her to sort of talk about, like, the famous people she knows. And, like, while he's answering the first question that she asks, she interrupts him and says, your eye is kind of leaking, and starts handing him a tissue. And she's like, do you feel that? Like, your eyes leaking? And he starts to wipe that, and she's like, no, the other one. You know, the one that's wet or whatever. [00:42:36] Speaker B: And so it's like, oh, Jesus, this. [00:42:38] Speaker A: Sounds liquid as shit, right? Like, this is in a conversation with a friend. Sure. You're in front of a bunch of people, and just, like, your eyes leaking, Richard. And then he's playing with this tissue for the rest of the two and a half hours that we end up sitting in this Q and A, where it becomes clear, like, one semi salient point we get out of this is that he's bipolar. And this starts to make everything else that he's talking about make sense because everything is just a ramble. He can't figure out, like, what the questions are. And so he ends up going on these long, like, literally, like, ten minute rambles about things. Like, largely about how, like, we don't teach children in school all the things that they need to know. And, like, for, like, ten minute streaks. And this one goes on for so long, he wrote a book about it, which I imagine is crazy, but he rambles about this. And then every time the interviewer goes to be, okay, we'll ask another question or whatever. He's like, and one more thing. And goes for another several minutes. People are filing out of this theater at this point. This place had been packed, and it's emptying by this point. The only people who are still sitting here are people who paid for the meet and greet and are waiting for the meet and greet. The people sitting next to me, they had paid for the meet and greet, and they left because they were like, we're paying a babysitter, and we live an hour and a half away. So, like, the sunk cost is leaning the other direction now. Cause we're paying more money for the babysitter to stay. So they left. And this woman doesn't redirect or anything. Like, if you're an interviewer, you should know how to reel the person back. [00:44:26] Speaker B: Corral the fucking discussion. Yes, of course. [00:44:28] Speaker A: Exactly. Don't just let them, like, wander. And she's just sitting there watching him take off. He has this unhinged ramble. So here's the question she asked, just to give you an example of how insane these questions are. She goes, rank these five attributes into which you think are, like, the most important to you, right? Can you rank these for me? Husband, activist, actor, father, lover. [00:45:01] Speaker B: What? [00:45:04] Speaker A: What? Like, what? How do you rank those? Like, any way you rank those. Those are gonna sound like an asshole. Why are husband and lover two separate categories? Like, are you asking him how good he is at sex? Like, what is this question? Like, yeah, active. Like, what is happening here? And so he's like, no, I can't rank those things. And then goes into this unhinged ramble about how, like, when he dies and goes to hell, there's going to be an account of all the things that he did. And, you know, all of these, you know, things which I assume is relating to, like, where this ranking is or whatever. And, you know, the. He's gonna be taking account for all this stuff. But then when he goes to God and gets to heaven, God is gonna let him in there, and there's gonna be all the breasts and thighs and everything that he could ever want all present there. [00:46:07] Speaker B: What this has to have made, I'm sure to have surely to hell somebody. [00:46:12] Speaker A: I don't. I don't know. It was so crazy. There was also a point at which he started randomly talking about how he's popular with blacks and how one time a bus full of black tourists passed, and they were really excited to see him. And this is, again, where an interviewer should redirect, but instead the interviewer goes, oh, yeah. And you remember that black pizza guy in the elevator? He was really excited to see you, too. I was like, what is going on here? This is fucking crazy. And so then after all of this rambling, they do open it up to Q and A. We're like 2 hours in already. And they open it up to the audience, who all ask the dumbest questions that you have ever heard in your life, as is custom. And then finally they realize there's supposed to be a meet and greet after this. So they cut off all of those people, and they're like, okay, we'll do this meet and greet. And the meet and greet. There's, like 150 people there for the meet and greet. And so they're like, you can't speak to him. You just hand the phone to the person, and they're going to take a quick picture, and you keep moving. Cause they're gonna. They have to be out of this building. Cause it's like midnight at this point. And so go through, and they like, you know, you hand this guy your cell phone, there's no, like, there's no ring light or anything like that. It is. There's like a step and repeat kind of situation in the background, but that's it. It's not set up for photos. So the, like, photo is he's sitting down, right? You have to stand up, not touching him or anything like that. Just stand that. You're not allowed to say anything to him because you have to move fast enough. [00:48:02] Speaker B: And not talk to Richard Dreyfus. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Worst picture I've ever seen in my life. Just shadows everywhere, you know, just like, yeah, I'll have to show it to you later because I'm standing in front of him and standing. And he's little. It's just like my boobs taking the entire photo next to this pale, tiny looking white man. And then for some reason, just to, like, make it more surreal, for some reason, his people became convinced I was a singer and, like, like, seemed to think I was lying about it. Like, I was actually famous. And they wanted to get, like, footage of me so they could use it. They're like, she's definitely a singer. She's definitely. I'm like, why are they like, are you a singer? I'm like, no karaoke or whatever. And they're, like, filming me. So it's like, I don't know what's happening here. And that was how I left that theater at, like, 1215 in the morning. It was insane. [00:49:01] Speaker B: That sounds, like, as awful for you as it does for him, I'm sure. That can't have been fucking fun, I don't think. Very old guy. [00:49:11] Speaker A: Here's the thing, though, is that he was clearly in a manic episode. So I don't think he was registering that anything was going wrong at all. He really seemed to just be in his zone or whatever and was just talking. He was unconcerned with what was happening at all. Like, and he sounded like. Like it was that kind of crazy that, like, my brothers, when they're in manic episodes, get into where you're just like, this is weird, conspiratorial bullshit stream of consciousness. They think they're making total sense. They're not at all. [00:49:45] Speaker B: Lots of what you've just described sounds similar to the time that I went to a con to see Peter Weller. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:49:54] Speaker B: Um. You know, whatever fucking question he would get asked, whether it was by the on screen compare or whether it was by the audience, he would not even just in the vaguest terms, refer to the question and would just go off on whatever the fuck he wanted to talk about. Yeah, I was. I was delighted to have got a question. You know, I was delighted to have had the mic and asked him, you know, what the on set experience working with David Cronenberg or something like that. And he just. What did that kid say about Cronenberg? Well, you gotta study ballet. And off he goes. Off he fucking goes. [00:50:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, it's. I think. I mean, I don't know if Peter Weller is bipolar or anything like that. But also, I think it's a little bit of that lead boomer brain as well, that they are all certainly, I. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Don'T know what kind of polyurethanes were used in the robocop suit, right? [00:50:43] Speaker A: They're just, like, on their own little planet and cannot be. And that's what's so crazy, is that people like, that, like, somehow seem to understand each other. So, like, after one of his insane ramp was, like, just pure word salad, people were like, yeah. And I was like, he didn't say anything. What are you talking about? Like, why are you clapping? That was just words I don't understand. So, yeah, it was. It was something. It's a story, is what it is. This could have been a perfectly normal event where he talked about Jaws and it was, you know, wonderful, and we all got a little hug and a photo afterwards and everything, but instead, it was the weirdest fucking night of my life. [00:51:28] Speaker B: It's a hell of a tale, and I dare say I would find it way less entertaining had I actually been there. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, I spent a lot of time going out to the hallway to pace a little bit and check instagram. I didn't require loops. I did have my loops in all the night before, but it was. It was a lot. Like, I'm leaving out things just because this story could go on for as long as that whole thing was, because every answer was unhinged. [00:52:02] Speaker B: So Maron's a zionist? [00:52:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that was like, he tried to play it off. Like, he wasn't. Like, he's just being a reasonable centrist, and that's the only people who really make sense, you know? Like. But it was definitely with the tone of. But I don't understand why we're criticizing this and they have the right to defend themselves and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Like, that was. I mean, he said that basically, and, like, his whole perspective was basically like, stop being so hysterical. I was like, oh, huh, okay. And listen, he had Tiffany haddish on his show that day. He's always hanging out with, like, sarah Silverman and things like that. So, like, I knew he was hanging around with some unhinged zionist people, but I was like, just. I was like, maybe. Maybe it's, you know, he's just being a capybara about it, but no, apparently he thinks it's unhinged for you to be upset with Israel. [00:53:04] Speaker B: Okay. Unhinged. [00:53:09] Speaker A: I mean, he used. He used comedian words or whatever, but, like, I think hysterical was amongst the. [00:53:15] Speaker B: Words in there sounded like an unhinged weekend. [00:53:20] Speaker A: It's just a weekend of me realizing that my fandom of white men is a problem. [00:53:28] Speaker B: They have a habit. [00:53:30] Speaker A: They have certain habits letting you down. Yeah. So I need to start going to more things of people of color I like, and I think, yes. And maybe younger. [00:53:45] Speaker B: Yeah. 60,000 people. I don't think I saw a single non caucasian at the bottom. Not a single one. [00:53:55] Speaker A: Yeah. See this? That also is partially whales, I assume. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Well, yes, that plays into it, too. Yes. We do have them, though. [00:54:03] Speaker A: Yeah. We exist there. But, yeah, I find that all often. Every time I go to the Wellmont, the theater in town, I'm like, God, my tastes are, like, too white. Everybody. And all the things that I go to is white. I went to. I saw anti flag in flogging Molly last year, and, like, there were plenty of, like, Latinos and things like that there. So I was like, okay, that's cool. If you go to, like, a punk show, you know, then you get a little more. But I was like, I need to do something about my taste, I think, or who I spend money on. Maybe that's the issue. I'm spending money on the wrong people. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Possibly. Sneak in. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Sneak in. That's the ticket. Anyways, one more thing to point out before we sort of get into stuff is that if you're a ko fi supporter, this Thursday new episode of the Joag fan Cave coming out, and I have subjected Kristen to the strangers and received lots of hate texts yesterday as she was watching it. So this is going to be the first episode of the Joag fan cave in which Kristen experiences a full blown horror, and she does not like it. [00:55:18] Speaker B: Listen, the girl is a warrior. As far as I'm concerned for doing. [00:55:21] Speaker A: This, she's a champ. [00:55:23] Speaker B: And for sticking to this. The girl is made of stern stuff. [00:55:26] Speaker A: Yes. I promise that next month will not be so terrifying. She texted me this last night, and she was like, I can't turn off my light because I'm afraid of the guy with the bag over his head. It's like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Even when I started watching it again, I was like, I began. I hit play on the movie, and it started, and I was like, I played myself. This movie scares me, too. It's like we're on the same boat. My anxiety is through the roof. Even knowing what happens in this movie, perhaps even more so, because every time something happens, I'm like, I know where this is going. [00:56:04] Speaker B: Doesn't make it any easier. [00:56:05] Speaker A: No. So the strangers, if you haven't seen it before. Watch it. It's on Max and Thursday, an episode will be up in which we talk about it. And then Friday, you can go see the new Strangers movie. Not nad. It's just how we planned it. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Makes me realize we skipped a watchalong in April. [00:56:27] Speaker A: I was. Oh, yes. That was the other thing that I was gonna say, is that we are due for a watch along. [00:56:32] Speaker B: We skipped a watch along in April, so I'm happy to get this motherfucker in the books right now. [00:56:36] Speaker A: I know. I was thinking perhaps either the 18th or the 25th. What are those? Or not the 18th, because that's book club. The 25th. How does the 25th look for a. [00:56:45] Speaker B: Watch along the 25th? [00:56:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Of this feels great. [00:56:51] Speaker A: So, dear friends, mark your calendar. May 25. We are going to be doing a watch along. [00:56:59] Speaker B: Any themes jump out right away. We got the theme. It's adaptations. Yes. [00:57:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:57:06] Speaker B: So send a courtesy of our good friend Ryan, who I'm fucking seeing this goddamn week. [00:57:11] Speaker A: So bananas, this. What are you guys fucking wearing? [00:57:14] Speaker B: Don't know yet, but let me. A venue was suggested by my good friend Richard Stott. Okay. Cafe Diana, which bills itself as London's viral princess Diana Cafe. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Oh, my God, that's perfect. You have to. [00:57:31] Speaker B: Sounds good. Sounds good. So I'm gonna run that by. Right. But that feels great. It's just a cafe. I feel great about that. Diana memorabilia. [00:57:40] Speaker A: That's so perfectly weird. [00:57:43] Speaker B: Yes. So I wonder if we might pay them a visit. [00:57:46] Speaker A: I think that's a great idea, and I can't wait to hear about it. I'm very excited that you guys finally, after all these years, will meet. And again, I get to meet the listener. Have you ever before? [00:57:59] Speaker B: No. [00:58:00] Speaker A: Oh, incredible. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Apart from, like, my direct friends and family. [00:58:03] Speaker A: Sure. Or people who became listeners after we, like, you know, we're at a con or something. Exactly, exactly. But that's amazing. I'm very excited about this. So looking forward to a recap of this Diana cafe and your interaction with Dear Ryan. And again, you'll see her in September and many of our other dear listeners as well. I have, like, inklings of trying to put together, like, a live podcast situation. So. [00:58:32] Speaker B: Well, I've. I've suggested this to you. I think it's a fantastic idea. I think a live joag is a fucking great idea. [00:58:38] Speaker A: And I think, you know, maybe with our dead and lovely slash legacy of brutality. [00:58:43] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:58:44] Speaker A: Posse, we can put something together. I've got a venue. I'm thinking about gonna hit them up and see. [00:58:49] Speaker B: Oh, I fucking love that. I would love that. [00:58:52] Speaker A: Listen, plans, friends, plans. It's gonna be so good because here's the thing. Everyone knows I love to plan a thing, so. [00:59:02] Speaker B: You're the best. [00:59:03] Speaker A: You know, this won't be half assed. This is gonna be all in. [00:59:08] Speaker B: You love to plan a thing. I like to have things planned for me. [00:59:11] Speaker A: It's true. Yeah. [00:59:12] Speaker B: This is why we see how this works. Do you see the fucking weaving of minds here? Personalities and, you know, even when we were kind of mulling over New York, I threw the idea to you that if. If a live joag was possible, I think that would be a fucking great thing to do. [00:59:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I was like, at first, like, oh, I don't know if we can manage that or whatever. But now I've been kind of thinking about it, and I think we might be able to pull it off. So, you know, even if it's in your garden, I mean, we can definitely in my garden, in my backyard, for those of us here. But, like, just imagining, since we say garden, to, like, me in the garden. Like, we're just, like, in the flowers, like, having a little joag, but, yeah, so, you know, look out for that. We'll. We'll see what happens. Again, lots of planning happening. Website coming soon with information for you, so keep an ear and an eye out for that. And we're so excited to see everybody. [01:00:07] Speaker B: You don't even know. [01:00:11] Speaker A: You don't even know. I counted earlier, and it's 20 weeks, so that's, like, not very many weeks, if you think about it. [01:00:19] Speaker B: Uh huh. [01:00:21] Speaker A: So, mark what we watch this week. [01:00:25] Speaker B: Oh, listen, so a fruitful week, right? A super fruitful week of watching let me go in on love lies bleeding, if I may. [01:00:36] Speaker A: Ah, very nice. Yes. I'm glad you got. [01:00:39] Speaker B: Mmm. Mmm. You know, several times I've referred to. I've used the word solid to describe movies, right? And this is one of those fucking movies. Solid. And I'm not just talking about the fucking muscle. This film is just a solid ass movie. Um, it gave me kind of out of sight vibes. [01:00:59] Speaker A: Okay. [01:00:59] Speaker B: It gives Soderbergh a little bit to me. Interesting. [01:01:03] Speaker A: All right. [01:01:04] Speaker B: But, uh, it's, you know, it's a proper sweaty ass. Fucking grimy. [01:01:10] Speaker A: Like, sweaty is, like, the word that everybody uses when it comes to love. [01:01:14] Speaker B: Do you like sweaty movies, folks? Do you enjoy the sweat? [01:01:18] Speaker A: I think here's the thing that this captured is so, like, you know, I'm kind of like a germ phobe person. Don't like things that are, like, dirty. Especially when it's around food and kitchens and things like that. But, like, I'm not, like, into grime. I hate grime anywhere. And I always feel like, you know, things that, like, are about the eighties are always very clean. And I was like, this is what I remember the eighties being like, like, very gross. Everyone was gross. Everything was wood paneled and drab and everything was sweaty and disgusting. This movie, the eighties, in a way. [01:01:56] Speaker B: The workout scene, the gym scene that it's set in, you know, kind of home built garage gym. Yeah, right? I go to the gym now, and it is hyper cleaners. Fuck. [01:02:08] Speaker A: Right? I make eyes. [01:02:11] Speaker B: I wipe everything down. Everybody else wipes everything down and sprayers everywhere all the time. And, you know, if you see somebody use a piece of equipment and not wipe it down, then you instant, ooh, scumbag. [01:02:22] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:02:23] Speaker B: But this movie, fucking hell. Immune systems must have been cast iron because everything is grimy. Everything stinks. It's one of those films that it's a sensory experience. You can smell as fucking movie. [01:02:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:02:37] Speaker B: It just smells like hormones and perspiration and despair and. And, you know, just this yearn to do something different. But it's, you know, it's a lot of different things. In one, it's. It's a really tight little crime caper. It's a really tight little character piece. It's really eccentric. It's really quirky. I loved you. You warned me about the, you know, unheralded bursts of surrealism. I loved that. [01:03:02] Speaker A: It's one of those things that I was like, yeah, I wasn't bothered by it, but I know there are definitely going to be people that without the warning that that happens, will be like, come the f on. You know, like, you just. [01:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah, but I get it. You know, it's, you know, the symbolism of it. I get exactly what it was doing. [01:03:17] Speaker A: Right. [01:03:19] Speaker B: It spoke to me great in. In a kind of a Jackie Brown way. You've got lots of little, kind of peripheral characters that all have, you know, I love an internal life. They all seem to have a life off screen as well, that everyone brings a story into their time on screen. No matter how brief it is. Ed Harris is great. [01:03:38] Speaker A: Always. Always. Although I think I've mentioned before my, like, weird. My weird crush on Ed Harris and how, like, back in, like, 2008 when I was living in Oregon, I like, you know, back when you'd get DVD's from Netflix, I went through a phase where I just got all Ed Harris movies and tv shows. And this movie certainly challenges my commitment, that crush. [01:04:01] Speaker B: Yes. Well, again, you know, he's not young. [01:04:07] Speaker A: No. And that's not a problem. I don't mind an old. [01:04:09] Speaker B: No, no, of course, it's the. [01:04:11] Speaker A: It's the bald in the middle, long hair on the sides. Pretty hard to abide, I think. I can't make that work. [01:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah. But this is a wonderful movie. The character pieces are great. The dialogue is great. And really authentic feeling, you know, just real, real authentic feeling. Emotions like despair and hope and disappointment and love and craving and escape. It's a fucking great movie. A solid, solid, solid movie. Super into it. Love that soundtrack. Also fantastic. [01:04:45] Speaker A: Yes, definitely. I watched a movie called Dead of Night, but it's not called that everywhere. Called, like, death. Something it was really hard to find because on Letterboxd it says dead of night. But that's not what it's listed as if you're trying to, like, look it up. [01:05:01] Speaker B: I can't remember bells. [01:05:03] Speaker A: The thing is called. But it's basically a movie. It's from 1974 in which a guy comes, you know, is reported as dead to his parents after fighting in Vietnam and then suddenly turns back up on their doorstep. And they basically sort of ignore all of the signs that maybe something is amiss with their son. And, you know, that's the basic sort of premise for this. I think it's creepy, it's violent, and it's also got, you know, I love a sort of like war trauma sort of movie as well and sort of the way we deal with those kinds of things. And so, like being the seventies people really trying to, like, return to a sense of normality and things like that and like, just not dealing with what happened and what these people had been through who had been to war. [01:06:03] Speaker B: You've described them to. Feels a bit maybe like the guest. [01:06:07] Speaker A: It varies very much as the guest s. Yeah, for sure. I'm sure. Sure that what's his face, his name is escaping me right now. But the director must have seen this and gotten some sense of inspiration from this. [01:06:22] Speaker B: The guest. [01:06:24] Speaker A: It's the guy I like. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Godzilla. Kong. [01:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. What is his name? [01:06:29] Speaker B: Oh, I can't remember. But me and Alan had a long conversation yesterday about how dementia is happening to us. Um, just the. Adam Wingard. [01:06:42] Speaker A: Adam Wingard. That's it. Yes. Thank you. [01:06:44] Speaker B: Right. I found a strategy, though. Right? I found a strategy which I shared with Alan because stuff, you know, you know, but you can't recall, right. Just the most obvious blatant fucking stuff that, you know, you know, for example, I completely forgot the name of actor, comedian and presenter Rob Brydon the other day. [01:07:03] Speaker A: Oh, I love Rob Ryden. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Oh, so do I. He's great. Simply couldn't remember his name. Alan shared with me that he had a similar experience where he couldn't recall Tom Cruise. He couldn't remember the name of Tom. [01:07:14] Speaker A: Cruise, which is funny. Imagine just being like, you know, the guy, the guy. And everyone's like, ooh, ooh. Thinking it's gonna be obscure and it's Tom Cruise. [01:07:22] Speaker B: But it was immensely kind of validatory and comforting for me to hear that somebody else is. That's happening to somebody else as well. But my strategy was with Rob Brydon, I remembered. I tried to remember something adjacent to him to kind of fire up the pathway. So I can't remember Rob Bryden's name, but I know he was in the trip. The trip had Steve Coogan in it and Rob Brydon. So I. [01:07:46] Speaker A: That sometimes helps for me too, like drag out the context and like, you can, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Find a different synapse to fire to get you there. [01:07:56] Speaker A: So Adam Wingard directed the guest, but this was directed by Bob Clark, who directed black Christmas, but also went on to completely change career trajectories and directed a Christmas story and Porky's. So yeah, total, like Porky's. Yeah, his early movies were like these intense horror flicks dealing with social issues, and then he went on to direct that kind of stuff eventually. Baby geniuses and all kinds of stuff like that. [01:08:30] Speaker B: So really interesting career back. [01:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll bet. Don't lick your lips, you weirdo. [01:08:39] Speaker B: I've got dry skin. I'm not salivating at the fucking memories of watching Porky's at six. [01:08:48] Speaker A: But yeah, I liked dead of night. But you're gonna have to do some work to figure out what it's actually called because. Okay, it's. It's a tricky one to find, but it is on, like, okay to be and various things when you find it by its actual name. [01:09:04] Speaker B: Okay, super. Just a super fruitful week. Finally. Sing Hosanna. Godzilla minus one. Finally. At fucking last. It's only been six months of checking torrent leech every single day. And I'm not even joking. For the last six weeks, every fucking morning, I've been hitting refresh on that bastard side to wait for Godzilla minus one and worth the waaaaay. Absolutely. So goddamn good. You've got a real movie here. A real actual movie. Interrogating, you know, how people cope with the aftermath of a world war, how fractured fucking damaged people rebuild some semblance of a life. How you deal with survivor's guilt, the, you know, the terror and trepidation of raising a child in a world that's completely been blown to, fucking tried to put back together again piecemeal. And also Godzilla. [01:10:04] Speaker A: And also Godzilla. Yeah, absolutely. Who has certain elements throughout it that are certainly an analogy for the bomb as well, you know. [01:10:16] Speaker B: And that's, I gather he's always been, hasn't he? Godzilla has always been something of a cipher. [01:10:21] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. So sort of the randomness of having something like that come and destroy, you know, people and things and everything that you've come to, to understand along with, then, you know, you're mad at whoever did it, but you're also mad at your government for the way that they brought you to this space as well. It's dealing with a lot of things while also basically being like if you mashed up like Jaws and Jurassic park and like all these like big cool creature movies at the same time, like, ugh, it's just so freaking good. [01:11:00] Speaker B: So are the other kind of OG Toho Godzilla movies this good then? [01:11:06] Speaker A: I don't know, but I'm very curious. [01:11:08] Speaker B: Now because if they are, you know, I could go on a little Anna Martin here. I could watch load of those. [01:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't know how many there are. This is a few months ago. I don't know if it was when Godzilla minus one came out or if it was earlier than that, but I used my friend Kyle's plex as well. And every now and again like he'll get all of something. And so we got like, you know, the last 40 years of Godzilla movies of like every kind on there. And it was just like, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. There's like so fucking many of them. Like they must put out like at least one a year, like, or more. There's so freaking many Godzilla movies. But I'm interested in any Godzilla movie that is like this one. [01:12:02] Speaker B: That is that good. [01:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Because you know, if you, if you're really minded to, you can ignore, dunno, the hard, the hard work of the movie and just enjoy a really fucking kick ass Godzilla movie. [01:12:13] Speaker A: Exactly. It works on, on every level. [01:12:15] Speaker B: All of the great Godzilla things, you know, charging up his amazing atomic breathing, huge battles and the smashing and the screaming. It's got the amazing thing I love of just japanese characters just shouting at each other. Just all of that, you know, giving vent all that repressed emotion that culturally they carry with them. [01:12:36] Speaker A: The translation was really good on this, by the way. Like, I think, you know. Yeah, a lot of times it's like it can feel really stilted when you get translations from, like, Japanese to English and things. And you're like, that's not how people talk. But whoever did the translation on this really, like, nailed, like, how people speak in translating over, which was really nice as well. [01:12:57] Speaker B: More than a little bit of jaws to this one. [01:12:59] Speaker A: Very much so. Yeah. There is so much jaws influence on this, which, of course, appeals to me. Yeah. Godzilla minus one is just a great time. I big time recommend I five starred that ship. [01:13:12] Speaker B: Very glad that it delivered. I think I gave it four and a half. It was fucking fantastic. And I will phrase these next couple of movies in an apology to you. Yes. Mark knows when he's done wrong. And Mark is. Is not shy of apologizing, okay. Because you and I had planned. We had planned to watch basket case together. A really conspicuous blind spot for me. A really conspicuous absence, you know, missing piece in my, you know, my letterbox in my movie watching. And you and I had planned to watch it together. And I can't remember why we didn't. Why didn't we? [01:13:52] Speaker A: Um. Because you wanted to watch Godzilla minus one godzilla. We were like, we'll watch it later. [01:13:58] Speaker B: But here's how it panned out. I had a day off work, and I woke up and I had nothing really to do. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna watch basket case. And I did, right? [01:14:06] Speaker A: Yep. [01:14:07] Speaker B: I'm sorry. [01:14:10] Speaker A: I did end up watching it myself later. [01:14:13] Speaker B: Oh. What did you think? Please tell me you liked it. [01:14:16] Speaker A: I thought it was good, campy fun. And then they had to have a monster rape a girl to death for no reason. And then it soured me on it a bit. I was like, this is a good time. This is a solid three star screamin chat. Kind of like a good screamin chat night movie. And then I was like, why? We were having. All of this was fun. All of the deaths were fun. Everything was silly and campy. And then you ended on that. What? [01:14:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:44] Speaker A: What in the world? [01:14:45] Speaker B: See, before it. Before it took that turn. I think it was even better than that. I thought I gave it four stars because I fucking loved it. [01:14:53] Speaker A: I am very surprised by that. [01:14:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:56] Speaker A: Not in like, a way that I'm like, ew, why? But just because, like, I don't think it, like, super stands out as eighties camp. [01:15:03] Speaker B: I feel that it did. [01:15:05] Speaker A: But I watch movies like this all the time. And so I was like, it's. It's like, it's a good entry into what it is. [01:15:13] Speaker B: You know, I think a really compelling, kind of mean streets, taxi driver ish, kind of driller killer, kind of grimy city vibe to it, which I adore. [01:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very like those old school, gross New York vibes. [01:15:28] Speaker B: Mmm. Big fan of that. I thought. I thought the creature itself, interestingly. Right again, Anna Martin. Second time she's come up. But I did the entire trilogy in a day, right? That's how much I enjoyed basket case. I went in on two and three. [01:15:43] Speaker A: Yes. I opened up, letterboxd, and it was like, come on, what the fuck? [01:15:48] Speaker B: But I had to watch the two of them. And it's diminishing returns, right. Because Belial is that he was at his best when he was really kind of ropey in that first one, when you could see the joins on the. [01:15:58] Speaker A: Latex and how he switches back and forth between being, like, a live action puppet and, like, stop motion, claymation, beautiful. [01:16:05] Speaker B: Little stop motion vignettes, which were just great. And he was so creepy how he just screams so terrifying. Super, super terrifying. And, yeah, I really thought that first one was a little bit. It kind of. It swung for the fences. Swang. [01:16:26] Speaker A: Swing. [01:16:27] Speaker B: Swung. [01:16:30] Speaker A: I don't know why, but Swang really tickles me. [01:16:34] Speaker B: It's a big swang. Basket case. [01:16:36] Speaker A: Took a big swang with basket case. My favorite thing about basket case, I think, is, and this is the thing that I would have kind of expected to annoy you, but I guess in this case, didn't. But that, like, it. It leans into the campiness of the acting. And so, like, the people just, like, are acting, like, in a bad movie but on purpose. And so, like, you know, things like when he's in the doctor's office talking to the woman who eventually has the terrible sexual assault thing happen to her at the end of this, but, like, you know, the way that she, like, talks and her eyes getting really big and, you know, it's saying, like, insane. You didn't go to the, like, she's, like, upset with him for not going to tourist sites. Surely you've been to the I for the Empire state building. You know, like, stuff like that. And, like, his overacting and the way that, like, you know, the one guy, like, when he goes to, like, creep on things, he does, like, a creep booth. Like, everybody is on board with the hotel. [01:17:38] Speaker B: Yeah, the guy who owns the hotel. [01:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:40] Speaker B: It's a fucking mad ass in here. [01:17:42] Speaker A: Right? Like, it's very intentional. Like, it knows what it is. [01:17:46] Speaker B: I pull that down to just honestly inept acting to just people doing their best but not being very good. [01:17:53] Speaker A: I don't think so. Like, I really. I think it was intentional, especially because of those weird scenes, like the. The girl being, like, you know, getting increasingly weird about him not having. Going to tourist sites. Like, I definitely think this is on purpose. That's not just, oh, these actors are bad at what they do. I think it was, like, supposed to add to the, like, the surrealness of the entire situation. [01:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:18:17] Speaker A: You know, is that, like, these people don't act like people either. And I thought that was a fun element of the movie. [01:18:25] Speaker B: The second two totally askew any of that kind of interesting weirdness. And they are good. They're a good laugh. [01:18:32] Speaker A: I was gonna say you all gave them three stars. I thought that was funny when you were like, don't bother with them. But I'm like, you gave them three stars. That's pretty high for you. [01:18:40] Speaker B: I enjoyed the hell out of them. I don't believe you would. Firstly, I love that both sequels run right into one another. They all take place in one long chain of events. Both the sequels just start and end where the other left off, which I. [01:18:54] Speaker A: Is it the same guy? [01:18:56] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, it is. Same guy, same performer, same director. The second and third kind of story unto themselves. In that, Dwayne and Belial find refuge in a community of unusual humans. So there's like, almost like a, like a weirdo liberation activist by the name of Granny Ruth who houses a house full of people who are differently formed, like Belial was. And they're just kind of exercises in big latex kind of appliances and gore, really, so that they don't have that WTF factor that Bhaska case does. But they're more akin to something like Alex Winters freaked. [01:19:44] Speaker A: Okay. [01:19:46] Speaker B: In that it's very imaginative. And there's a lot of artistic work gone into the, you know, to the air quotes, monsters. But it's fair. It's far more standard fare. [01:19:56] Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. [01:19:57] Speaker B: But nonetheless, a lot of fun and some first rate kills. [01:20:02] Speaker A: You don't think I'd like it? [01:20:04] Speaker B: No, I don't. I don't know why. Prove me wrong. Maybe you'll love them. [01:20:08] Speaker A: I don't give one of. I can do the second one. And if it doesn't work, I know that the third is the same, so I won't. [01:20:15] Speaker B: Very similar. [01:20:16] Speaker A: A world. [01:20:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:20:18] Speaker A: Fair enough. I also watched resurrect the mystery of the toy because after last week's, episode, my friend. And one of our listeners, James, who is a Philly native, and, you know, he leads tours in Philadelphia. He is a Philadelphia expert and a historian. On top of that, by academic training, he's a doctor. [01:20:49] Speaker B: I see. And he so precisely the wrong kind of person to interrogate my research. [01:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah, right. May know a few things. And he was like, actually, they. They are pretty sure they know who created the Doinbe tiles, and there's actually a documentary about it, and they reveal who that is and all of that stuff. So I watched it to find out about it. And it's a. What I love about this documentary is, like, this is from 2011, so it's before the whole, like, Netflix ification of documentaries. And so it's not like if you made this now, you'd have, like, a whole bunch of, like, social media influencers talking about the tiles and, like, all kinds of, like, it would be dragged out over four episodes of nothing, and they would. [01:21:37] Speaker B: Four episodes, limited series. [01:21:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And then they'd harass the guy and, you know, all of this stuff to get him to speak to them and all that. And this documentary, you know, they're trying really hard. The guy who's making the documentary, you get, like, a lot of insight into the kind of person he is. He was, you know, he left school. He'd been bullied a ton. He lived on the streets. He was unhoused for a while. And he gets sort of fixated on this idea, sort of dog with a bone thing with these toynbee tiles, and becomes obsessed with trying to track this down, and it becomes a very meaningful project for him. You get interviews with his brother where his brother's on the verge of tears, talking about his childhood and all these kinds of things, and the person that he's become. And, you know, what this means to him. And so you get this kind of narrative with this, of, like, you know, this is as much about him as it is about this Tyler guy. And then as they sort of approach and try to figure out, like, who this guy is, and they stumble upon and, like, pretty much figure out who it is, as far as we know. You see him kind of dealing with, like, I really want to know this. I want to meet him. I want to talk to him, but also, like, he clearly doesn't want to be met. And them sort of going through the process of, like, you know, well, we've. We've uncovered these kinds of things, but, like, ethically and morally and as a person who is human, do I want to influence so it's this guy yearning. [01:23:11] Speaker B: For closure on his obsession whilst at the same time respecting the vision and the privacy of the need of the. [01:23:17] Speaker A: Guy who did it right and what that means to him and all that kind of stuff. So I recommend resurrect dead. It's a, you know, sort of throwback to documentaries past and one that I think is moving in various ways and also interesting. And it does put forth that theory because I think it's from someone who knew him about the removing the, like, the floor in the car to drop the tile. And there's even a point in this where this poor guy, he, like, goes to get, like, a haircut or something like that, and he goes inside for, like, 15 minutes, and he comes back out and there's a fresh tile outside, and he realizes that he's just missed the Tyler. And he's, like, running, like, down the street, like, you know, yelling out, like, I believe resurrect on Jupiter. Resurrect dead on Jupiter. Like, trying to, like, get this guy to come out or whatever. Yeah, it's. [01:24:12] Speaker B: Where did you see it? Where did you find it? [01:24:14] Speaker A: I think it's on to be. I think that was where I watched it. So, like, I don't know what free, like, streamers you guys have there, but I would imagine it's on whatever that is. Do you have those? Do you have, like, the freezers? [01:24:26] Speaker B: We don't have really. Nah, nah. [01:24:30] Speaker A: Oh, we have bajillions of them here. There's, like, tons of them. So, like, movies like, that are, like, super easy to find on them as long as you're willing to watch a commercial here and then I actually think I rented this one, though, because I didn't want it to be interrupted. But easy to find. Resurrect. Dead. [01:24:45] Speaker B: Beautiful. Beautiful. [01:24:47] Speaker A: Anything else? [01:24:49] Speaker B: Just one more super briefly. It's become a weird sort of tradition that whenever I visit my mum, we'll watch something horrifically inappropriate for the two of us. [01:25:00] Speaker A: Right. [01:25:00] Speaker B: And the night before last, her and I watched inglorious bastards together. [01:25:06] Speaker A: What did she think of it? [01:25:08] Speaker B: She loved it. Did she really loved it? Straight away from that opening with Christoph Waltz in the. In the frenchman's house. I hate it so much. Do you hate the film? [01:25:21] Speaker A: Hate it. And it was like, from that opening where it was like, oh, this is not for me, but go on with her. I want to hear about her experience, not mine. [01:25:29] Speaker B: The dialogue is so good, and the tension is so meticulous and it's quirky. You know, she's. She's no cinephile, my mum. But, yeah, she. She was really hooked by how, you know, that. That Tarantino kind of hyper stylized, hyper real kind of vibe really landed for her. And the fact that it just explodes into that fucking violence at the end, which you earn. You know what I mean? You've got to earn that, that payoff. She likes her celebs. She enjoyed seeing Brad. [01:26:06] Speaker A: Who's that? [01:26:07] Speaker B: Brad Pitt. So there was lots in it for her. And I dug it as well. I really dug it as well. I've said plenty of times that from here and out, Tarantino is dead to me. But, yeah. What don't you like about inglorious bastards? Tell me. [01:26:23] Speaker A: I don't like the cleverness of it. I don't like the, you know, sorry, my mom is, like, singing outside the door, hopefully. [01:26:31] Speaker B: Is she singing puddle of mud? [01:26:33] Speaker A: Probably. I have headphones. It's hard to tell, but I don't like the, you know, America comes in and saves things. And you know what? We rewrote history to all this, and I think the cleverness of, like, Christoph Waltz's character in it really soured me on that. He's great, obviously, but it was like, from the beginning, I was like, the way that this is framed, to me, makes the villain really interesting. And you get that, too, with Daniel Bruhl's character as well. Kind of a sort of, like, sympathetic, terrible person in it. And that, I think, you know, I don't like the way Tarantino deals with women, period. And I think the kind of watching this very clever villain torment women and this particular woman and things like that, it just rubs me very much the wrong way. And this. Yeah, very clever. Bring in your good, good, you know, good old boy american guys to come in here and fight the Nazis and all that kind of stuff. Like, the whole thing is just like, everything I hate about this kind of flick, it's like, everything I hate about Tarantino pretty much is present in this movie. Maybe not everything. There's a few other things I hate about Tarantino that are not present in this movie, but a lot of what I hate about his glib attitude towards the world and things like that is present in this, which I think is like, you know, what's surprising is, like, I really love once upon a time in Hollywood. I think he manages to, like, thread that revenge needle really well. But I think because of sort of. I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of things wrapped up in the presentation of inglourious basterds that really rubs me the wrong way. [01:28:30] Speaker B: I mean, you know that I've got a soft spot for alt history, you know, and that's. That's what I was able to enjoy as. [01:28:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know. Yeah, I like an alt history. Not as much as you do. I do like an alt history. I think already America is so rah rah. We saved the world about World War Two, that we don't need, like, a reimagining of how we ra ra save the world. You know, that, like, makes us look even. Even better than already. Like, it's really, like, if you really think about the Holocaust and things like that, in many ways, we are a villain in this situation. We were more likely to persecute the bear Jew than to let him beat the shit out of Nazis and scalp them and things like that. It's just a great big lie to add to the great big lie and. [01:29:25] Speaker B: Equally as likely to co op the research and then pardon the Nazis that did it. [01:29:33] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Yeah. We then paid them to come here and figure out how to inflict all kinds of things on people. [01:29:40] Speaker B: Operation Paperclip was in my mind. [01:29:42] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So it's just kind of like one of those ones that it's hard for me to shut off while watching it. It's like the marin thing. It's like, you know how I get if I'm, like, thinking too hard about something. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:54] Speaker A: It's gonna be hard for me to just be, like, just turn it off and enjoy the movie. I just like. So, yeah, it's not for me. [01:30:01] Speaker B: Okay. [01:30:03] Speaker A: She's still going out there. [01:30:05] Speaker B: I want to know what she's singing. And if you can get a mic on her, that would be amazing. [01:30:09] Speaker A: I did send you after, you know, obviously, a few weeks ago, I was talking about how my mother is obsessed with the puddle of mud song, blurry. And then, like, a few days later, I walked by her door, and she was playing it on her phone and singing it at the top of her lungs. [01:30:25] Speaker B: So I did make a recording. [01:30:27] Speaker A: Yeah. On her phone. She has an alexa in her room. There's no reason playing it on the phone. [01:30:35] Speaker B: Mom is the best. [01:30:37] Speaker A: Just crazy person. But let's talk about our main topic here. Our main discussion, if you will. We decided, I think the reasons behind this will be fairly obvious, but somewhat specifically. Obviously, one of the hugest stories out of the US right now is protests and the sort of limits of protests and what they're for and what constitutes violent protest and peaceful protest and who's allowed to do it and who it makes safe and unsafe and all these kinds of things, which is, you know, largely it's a bunch of college students sitting around hanging out with flags and chants and things like that. But it has become this big flashpoint. These universities are canceling their graduations and all kinds of stuff. But the fact that it's crossed over. [01:31:31] Speaker B: The pond, what is going on at campuses in the states has made pretty major news here. [01:31:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is like a couple times watching some of the coverage of it, which I try not to watch much of because the news is very skewed about how they talk about it, and it makes me angry. But it definitely has occurred to me several times, like, just imagine how we would talk about this if this were happening in another country. It's fascinating to think other countries are watching our protests and talking about them from a distance. You know, bananas thought. But what really kick started the thought that we're getting into about protests was slightly before this, when a man had done a little bit of a self immolation outside of the Trump trial. And obviously, a few months ago, we had Aaron Bushnell, who, the second one in quite quick succession, very different reasoning behind these two particular acts. But after this most recent one, we decided we wanted to talk a bit about extreme protests. And part of this came from, you sent me a video of this. That kind of triggered a lot of curiosity about it. [01:32:49] Speaker B: Yes. And I don't want to sidetrack this into another, because we've had this discussion before about how I will readily, I will watch uncensored. [01:33:00] Speaker A: Yeah. If you want to know why we do this, there's plenty of episodes in which we've explained that it's not just some sort of morbid gawking or whatever. [01:33:10] Speaker B: But whacking off while I'm doing it. [01:33:13] Speaker A: Right. [01:33:13] Speaker B: Exactly like that. But I mean, the first thing I want to say about this last one, the one outside the Trump trial, is that it is, it is the clearest and most detailed view I have ever seen of an act of self immolation. [01:33:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Start to finish. Pretty close up. [01:33:40] Speaker B: Pretty close up that you see. You see at what point the screaming stops. You see at what point the awareness kind of leaves the guy's body. You see the effect that it has on him physically, the tendons curling, muscles starting to function, his body kind of curling up and twisting and becoming gnarled as muscle denaturation happens, convulsions. It is, it really, it really hammers home. While reading about self immolation today. Right. I've heard it described as I'm gonna quote this because this absolutely sums it up for me. It. There is a professor at University of Rochester by the name of Jack Downey who calls it the most violent, non violent type of action. [01:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good description, choosing to. [01:34:34] Speaker B: End your own life in an explicitly gruesome way as a public statement, but at your own cost. [01:34:41] Speaker A: Right. [01:34:42] Speaker B: You know, if you're thinking it through properly, then it is a non violent, violent type of action. And that really makes a load of sense to me. [01:34:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And to sort of add to that before you go on, I also sort of another professor sort of talked about things like this. Fazia Hussain, who's an assistant professor of sociology at Queen's University in Ontario. She used the phrase spectacular agency to refer to what she describes as attention grabbing tools used in an effort to attract both attention and allies for what they saw as otherwise a lost cause, which we see in, like, even, you know, this. This guy in his sort of manifesto about this. It's sort of a last ditch effort at gaining publicity where standard forms of protest and activism have seemingly failed to make an impact. And this can include, obviously, extreme protests like self immolation or hunger strikes, but it can also include things like hash metoo or leaked videos burning of ethigies, or, as in the sixties, the burning of draft cards. And it goes sort of to the point your professor here is making, that acts of spectacular agency are inherently attention getting, but they're also inherently risky and uncertain. And you're risking everything from time, money and privacy to your actual life. And you're doing it without the guarantee that the audience will buy into your message and little control over how it will be interpreted and received. There was another self immolation that had happened a month or two before Aaron Bushnell, and it never even made the news. Like, no one talked about it. You know, you have no control, really, over whether your message spreads or not. [01:36:21] Speaker B: But you are, and you'll never know. [01:36:23] Speaker A: Huge. You'll never know, right? You're making huge sacrifice. And afterwards, you know, amongst these things was like self immolations. People immediately questioned your sanity. You know, they didn't do it because of a real political belief. They did it because they were crazy. Right? People will victim blame. Like in the case of the student who carried a mattress around Colombia to protest the sexual assault on campus and the fact that they hadn't punished her rapist. People said that she deserved it. She was partying all these kinds of things. And people, of course, saying it's not the right way to do it. You shouldn't throw soup at the Mona Lisa. You shouldn't block roadways, things like that. You shouldn't set yourself on fire in front of people. There's plenty of people who are going to tone police the way that you're doing it. And the effectiveness of extreme protests is somewhat subjective. Some might say that they're useless because they don't lead to instant change as a result, or they turn people off. But for others, including the people who do these things, it's important to sort of rethink what protest means. I saw an Instagram post the other day where someone said something along the lines of, protest isn't about trying to change the minds of people in power, it's about showing people in power that they can lose it. It. Which is what we see in, like, the protests over Palestine or tick tock, the banning of TikTok. Like, why are they coming so down so hard on kids who are sitting on lawns, like, playing guitar? Enchanting slogans. Why are they banning an app that's popular amongst the youths? It's because of the message it spreads. It's a threat to power. They know they're not going to change Joe Biden's mind. But the messages that, like, you know, if we can get that message out, then it might impact his ability to maintain power, which is what these sort of extreme protests, like self immolation, do. It's why it's important to make it be like, oh, that person was just crazy, or whatever. Because if we start to relate to the message, that's a threat to power. [01:38:26] Speaker B: Exactly. This. It's political gaslighting. But, you know, but against the backdrop of people taking the most extreme decision that they could possibly make, and even in the face of something as stark as that, even in the face of something as irreversible and traumatic as that, the old playbook still gets used. The playbook of. Yeah, you had a manifesto. The guy was a fucking loon. Guy was a crank. This ain't the way. This isn't the way to raise awareness, you know? [01:38:58] Speaker A: Right, yeah, exactly. [01:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's, uh. It's transparent. [01:39:03] Speaker A: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. So we both kind of, like, looked into things, but, like, really, I think self immolation was one that kind of snagged you out the gate. Right, like, where this started. [01:39:14] Speaker B: Well, how could it not? I mean. I mean, you were quite right in what you say in that firstly, it's way more commonplace then you might think, in so many. So many instances of people self immolating like this publicly just don't get fucking reported, you know? And it happens all over the fucking world. In 2012, a lady by the name Vera Smolina set herself on fire outside the fucking Kremlin. You know, I mean, set herself on fire outside the Moscow seat of power. Um, for. For no particular reason, but it just. It got suppressed. It just got fucking smothered. [01:39:58] Speaker A: She didn't have. She didn't have a reason for doing it. [01:40:01] Speaker B: No, there were no. Nothing that. Nothing. That was nothing that, you know, that was released, at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:40:08] Speaker A: Like, there had to have been a reason she did. It feels like it's Russia, and that just didn't get out. [01:40:14] Speaker B: Uh, but, yeah, to quote articles, she was not carrying any posters. We don't know why she did this. She made no demands. Before self immolating, the woman had apparently attempted suicide in the past. [01:40:24] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Well, maybe. [01:40:26] Speaker B: You know what I mean? But again, what is that if not deflection? [01:40:30] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Like, okay, is that. Is that just to, again, make her look crazy or. [01:40:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's. It's an historical thing as well. It's happened for fucking decades. You can trace it back to. To, you know, scripture. You can trace it back to, you know, it would happen a lot in India. It's used. It was used in India, in fact, as a means of protest in the government enforcing a different language on the people, you know, outside of native language. Just give me a sec. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Around 400 AD, there's evidence of chinese buddhist nuns and monks self immolating. But, I mean, I'll tell you why it got popular is because of fucking flammable liquids like gasoline. You know what I mean? [01:41:26] Speaker A: Oh, sure. Yeah. [01:41:27] Speaker B: In, you know, times before that, the act of self immolation required building something. Building a fucking pyre. [01:41:35] Speaker A: Burn yourself at the stake. [01:41:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly this. Exactly this. And up until. What was the guy's name? Kwang Duk, the buddhist monk, the Vietnam protester. That actually set off a load of other self immolations in its wake. Immediately after that, if you have Norman Morrison. [01:41:58] Speaker A: I'm not sure. Go on. [01:41:59] Speaker B: Norman Morrison. So, pretty much right after thick Quandik, the famous kind of self immolation in Saigon in 1963, right after that, an american anti war activist by the name of Norman Morrison did the same thing. He was a Mormon, I think, or a Quaker. Sorry, religious society friends. [01:42:18] Speaker A: That makes a little more sense. [01:42:20] Speaker B: Well, but as the war escalated, it was the kind of the use of chemical agents and napalm that set him off. And he doused himself in kerosene and whilst clutching his daughter. Whilst clutching his fucking daughter. Yeah. Set himself on fire right outside the offices of the secretary of defense at the Pentagon. [01:42:43] Speaker A: Did she die, too? [01:42:45] Speaker B: She did not, I'm delighted to say. [01:42:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a. Yeah. You don't get as much sympathy when you almost take a child with you. That's probably not a great way to do it. [01:42:56] Speaker B: No, certainly not. But, yeah, it's. It's, for whatever reason, as huge and as violent and as awful an act as it is, like you've quite rightly said in so many cases, they just try to fucking play it off. The authorities and the media will try and play it off as being an act of mental illness as opposed to what I deem it as being an intentional act. The most intentional act process. [01:43:26] Speaker A: Right, exactly. And that was one of the things, like, with Aaron Bushnell, like, they really kind of lost control of the narrative on that. And you saw, like, they did try to be like, well, he came from, like, I think he grew up in kind of like a commune situation or like a sort of a fundamentalist sort of christian situation or something. So they tried to say, like, oh, you know, he's troubled youth kind of thing. And like, you know, they tried to pull out various things from his past, but it was like, I mean, what you're looking at here is a young military member who is protesting as an active duty serviceman, what he's being forced to do, and that he's realized that there is, you know, there's nothing else that we could possibly do. So I'm gonna try to get attention this way. And because of the way that this stuff has been spread through TikTok and through reels and stuff like that, like, that message got out. These other people didn't necessarily, like, social media didn't get a hold of them the way that this one did. And this got all the way, too. They've already named a street or something after him in Gaza. So part of this, and I see this with the university protest as well, one of the things that I think is really impacting about it is seeing that not only is it a challenge and sort of galvanizing other people to. To be more, you know, to do more activism or things like that, seeing the impact that it has on Palestinians that they have largely, like, you've seen a lot of despair from them about, like, America. Like, you know, you'll go out in March, but you're not going to do anything more. Like, you know, no one's really stopping anything. And like, Aaron Bushnell and the college, seeing the college kids arrested and stuff like that has given them hope that they over there are like, maybe they really do care. Maybe they're willing to put their bodies on the line for us. Which I think is a huge, huge thing as well, which is a point. [01:45:33] Speaker B: I think you raised during our four part Israel Palestine kind of series that, you know, my. My point, naive though it was, in retrospect, is that what does a fucking. What does a real achieve, right? What does a Facebook post achieve? I guess what it. What. What you're saying and when. Which, you know, which I've come to see is it. It shows that there are voices out there that get it, that have your fucking back. It's boying a movement. Yeah, I see. [01:46:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a. That's the thing is, like, with any act of activism, I guess, like, this is one of the things we were sort of talking out was like, the performance, right? And how, like, often when it comes to posting or whatever, the thing is, like, you're thinking, like, it feels like a performance for me to do it or things like that. But, like, what these kinds of things are saying is, like, performance is important, you know, for various reasons. You know, we perform activism through posting or extreme things and stuff like that, because of what it then inspires. Whether it's showing people you're on their side, you've got their back, or like, you know, you post around enough and people start to think more about a thing and you've posted something, and now a couple people are writing to their representatives or things like that. And I think that is one of the things that's so interesting about all of this is that it's about performance. And that is. It's validating that as, like, a huge part of how to be effective. It's not simply like, now I look like a good person, pat myself on the back, but to recognize that performance is a big part of activism. You should be doing stuff. But also performance is a part of activism. [01:47:25] Speaker B: Yes, it is. Of fact, I mean, you know, they're full of. History is full of examples of performative process, whether it's, you know, using fake blood during HIV protests, dousing offices and buildings, and fake blood, like you said, throwing fucking soup on a painting. That's performance art. That's an act of performance. When it comes to. When it comes to something as final and as just impactful and bombastic and massive and undeniable as ending one's life as burning oneself to death. I don't. I tend to agree with, again, another quote, a professor at Temple University, a guy by the name of Ralph Young, who calls self immolation in process an act more of despair, you know, born more from a feeling that there's nothing else that you can do, that no one else is willing to listen unless the ultimate fucking sacrifice, the most visible sacrifice possible, yourself, you're prepared to do that almost like just. Just every other fucking avenue of. Of trying to get people to listen has been exhausted, and there's nothing else. And through despair, this is something that gets turned to. I kind of agree. I tend to lean more towards that as it being the ultimate feel of performance art. [01:48:47] Speaker A: Mm hmm. Yeah. And you see that in, you know, what Aaron Bushnell had said about his decision and about this fella who, like, bless. I can't remember what his name is at the moment, but, you know, his ideologies were a little mixed. There was a degree of, like, you know, stuff that you're like, yeah, totally. That is a big problem. And a degree of stuff that, like, you are on Reddit too much. But, like, in both of the things they said, you really saw. [01:49:18] Speaker B: Oh, his manifesto started out so well, right? [01:49:21] Speaker A: You're, like, really on board in the beginning, and then it starts getting into, like. And that's why the government gave everyone COVID and things. And you're like, oh, okay, all right, well, maybe you're a little too online, but you had some really good points. And part of what he says towards Max Azure. There you go. Yeah. Towards the end of his manifesto, he really talks about, like, how no one was listening to him. You know, it's like, my family doesn't. The public doesn't. Nobody is listening to me. And it's that despair at that. This, like, I've run out of ways to get people to pay attention, you know, I don't know how to make this serious to you, and so I have to do this, you know? And Aaron Bushnell was similar in sort of the, like, this is like, he wasn't happy about it. He wasn't stoked to go out and burn himself to death, but he was like, I have run out of ways to express that I will not be complicit in this and that we all need to wake the fuck up about it, you know? So I think, yeah, an act of despair is also. It's despair, it's performance. You know, all of that is wrapped up in what this kind of protest. [01:50:31] Speaker B: Is to its most, you know, ultimate conclusion. You can't go any further. That's the fucking absolute apex of what you can do as an act of self protest. I mean, there. There are examples of bodily kind of harm being used and bodily disfigurement and, you know, changing the physical body being used as forms of protest. Mouth sewing, lips being sewn shut is something that is more common than you might think. [01:51:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I did notice that. [01:51:05] Speaker B: Loads of recent examples as well. Refugees in Greece, a group of refugees, so their lips shut in 2015 in protest of their kind of movements being restricted towards western Europe. Australia had an incident of lip sewing in 2023. Again, dissension facility. You got asylum seekers stitching their fucking mouths shut to protest about. [01:51:31] Speaker A: That's got a history in Australia. I mean, I found 2000, 220, 1020, 14 all refugee situations in Australia. Because Australia apparently has incredibly restrictive laws when it comes to immigration and asylum seeking. That makes it very difficult for people who come there and difficult for them to, like, basically they just don't process their visa applications and they leave them in these, like, slummy colonies and they're kind of stuck there. And so the thing about the sewing their lips together that they have done this multiple times is that it's not just that, which is kind of a terrifying thing to imagine and painful to imagine in and of itself, but that's a hunger strike too. You can't eat with your lips sewn together. So it's a twofold kind of protest. [01:52:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And is multi, multi purpose as well. I mean, like you've said, it gets used in asylum cases. Political activists are doing it. Tabeesh and nuns have done it in protest against kind of chinese occupation. There was a drag queen by the name of Barbie Breakout in 2013 who stitched her mouth closed as a protest against kind of homophobic violence in Russia. So that is a fucking super loaded, super powerful form of protest that doesn't generally involve one's own death. [01:53:01] Speaker A: Right. But it's extreme in what it does to your body. Another one I came across was in Bhopal in 20 12, 51 people stood in water for several weeks to demand the government compensation for villagers whose homes would be submerged underwater. When the state ordered the opening of the gates of the Umkarishwar dam, while standing in the water, they were bitten by fish and crabs. It rained on them all the time. And as you can imagine, like, we all know what happens to your skin when you're in water for an hour. Imagine standing submerged for weeks. What that would do to your flesh. And this was all because basically the government needed to flood this area. These dams were overflowing and was causing a whole bunch of problems. But then they weren't doing anything for the people whose homes they were going to submerge as a result. So this is how these people protested that. So again, taking on sort of a bodily harm in order to make a. .1. Very directly related to the thing that was happening to them. If you're going to submerge our homes, we're going to submerge ourselves to point out what you're doing to us. [01:54:14] Speaker B: I see. I. That speaks to me. I find it wildly powerful. I really do. I think that's about as intentional and as committed and as brave a fucking act as you could possibly do. [01:54:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's long lasting. I mean, that's something that has so many physical consequences for the people who take part in it. You know, makes you think, like, sort of like the maize protests in Northern Ireland in the seventies where all those hunger strikers didn't eat for weeks, months essentially, until most of them died as a result of it. Like, you're talking about things that take a long time and are super punishing on your body and require so much willpower, so much to resist the urge to fight everything your body's telling you about keeping itself alive and taking itself out of discomfort. [01:55:21] Speaker B: Yeah. If you're going to self immolate, the best outcome you can hope for is you die because. [01:55:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. You don't want to try to recover from what that does to your integrity. [01:55:32] Speaker B: Absolutely don't. There's a grimly fascinating article in the LA Times where a doctor is interviewed about the actual, you know, the specific detail about what happens to a body when it's out on fire, what the threshold is generally for it being fatal, what the treatment is afterwards, where your body's defense mechanisms while it's happening, and what you can realistically hope for as a prognosis if you live. You know, you don't do it to survive. That's something that you. [01:56:05] Speaker A: Yeah, there's like, every time you see in those videos, people, like, running over, trying to save them. I'm like, that's. You don't. [01:56:10] Speaker B: That's not what he wants. [01:56:11] Speaker A: You don't want to be saved from this. You're not helping that person by saving their life. [01:56:16] Speaker B: No. [01:56:17] Speaker A: In a protest I wish I hadn't seen, artist Alice Newstead suspended herself from hooks in the skin of her shoulder blades in 2009 to highlight the threat of extinction of the world's sharks. She spent 15 minutes like that outside of a lush cosmetics in Paris with her skin stretched out and blood running down her back. Just absolutely horrifying. It was just like a. When I clicked the article, there was just a picture right out front. No, like, sensitive content or anything like that. [01:56:50] Speaker B: And I was like, yeah, um, self suspension. Had a bit of a moment, like, 1520 years ago. Where did it. You know, it felt as though a lot of people using it as in a. In a meditative kind of capacity. [01:57:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly. Like that. Yep. [01:57:06] Speaker B: Shake off your mortal shackles and ascend to a higher plane by fucking ramen hooks in yourself. Bunch of. [01:57:12] Speaker A: Is it the cell? That? Is it. Vincent D'Onofrio does that? [01:57:18] Speaker B: Oh, possibly that. I have not seen that one. [01:57:21] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah, that was. I'm like, it's something I watched recently, and it wasn't very good, but it was interesting nonetheless, I think, in that he suspends himself by hooks as, like, it feels like sort of a therapeutic thing for his murderous impulses or something of that nature, but it's horrifying to watch. [01:57:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Goths, I think, are super. [01:57:44] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I am not. I don't like punctured skin enough to be a goth, so it is what it is. But the last one that I came across, I mean, there's bajillions of different kinds of extreme protests, but the last one that I was going to bring up was in 2013, when russian artist Pyotr Pavlensky nailed his scrotum to the cobblestones in Red Square to protest Russia's descent into a police state, coordinating the stunt to coincide with Russia's police day celebrations, which is, I guess, a thing they have there. Yeah. [01:58:23] Speaker B: Nailed police day. [01:58:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, ugh, gross. Yikes. It's the most fascistic thing that I can imagine. But, yeah, he was opposed to all of that, and so he nailed his scrotum to cobblestones, which, like, sounds like a lot of work too. Again, that's, like, the kind of thing that, like, requires a lot of ignoring your body's pain signals and a lot of work and all of that to do. [01:58:50] Speaker B: Owning, as I do a scrotum. [01:58:53] Speaker A: Sure. [01:58:55] Speaker B: Proud owner of a scrotum. It served me perfectly well now for many years. No plans to upgrade. I'm fine. [01:59:00] Speaker A: Okay, good. I'm really glad to hear that. [01:59:02] Speaker B: When stretched, the skin of a scrotum is very thin. [01:59:08] Speaker A: Sure. [01:59:10] Speaker B: And I feel as though you. I can. I can see how you could do that. [01:59:16] Speaker A: Like, there's a way to not get the most painful part. [01:59:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, sure, I've had a nipple pierced. I've had lip pierced, I've had my eyebrow pierced. I've had multiple ear piercings. And I think assuming the nail is nice and sharp and you're quite handy with a hammer, I think. I think that has artistic impact, but I think you could walk off the physical impact of that. But great, great concept, Piotr. [01:59:42] Speaker A: Yeah. The visceral reaction to it is perhaps, you know, the point more than the actual pain. [01:59:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Made me think, when was this? [01:59:54] Speaker A: 2013. [01:59:55] Speaker B: So reasonable to assume there'd be video. I might go and take a little look at that. [01:59:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me know what turns up. I'm not sure I want to see it, per se. I just don't really need to see a dude's junk on the street. That's just any day in a city, if you know what I mean. [02:00:11] Speaker B: But, yeah. [02:00:15] Speaker A: It is really something. But I think looking at all of these kinds of things and what these various sociologists and experts and things like that say about them, certainly sort of a way to contextualize protest. Right? Because I think there is a lot of discourse about what's the right and wrong ways. What is it for? Did these accomplish anything? And I can remember probably the first of these kinds of things that I was really aware of as an adult person was like Occupy Wall street, and that was the big narrative coming out of it. Right. They don't have specific demands. They're not getting anything out of this. And the point isn't for, like, they're not politicians. They're not the government. The point isn't for them to solve the problem, but they're saying, there is one, and we're willing to sort of pull together as a group and challenge that and challenge anyone who is creating this vast wealth inequality and all of that kind of stuff. And I think that that is a thing that's often lost when discussing, you know, is it right? Is it wrong? All of that kind of stuff is like, you know, what is the point? What are they trying to do? It's challenging power, not necessarily asserting a specific policy point most of the time. And that it's, you know, important to recognize that, like, as we question how much is our questioning of the narrative, because the mainstream media or the government or things like that is trying to dismiss protest and we're buying into it. You know, like, how much are we just going like, oh, that person is crazy, or, this is the wrong way to do it, or whatever, because that is what we are told about these things and we don't think any further into it. [02:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, if you will, it's a protest moonshot, isn't it? If you're not going to listen to a fucking, a group of kids in university, if you're not going to listen to any other reasonable air quotes form of. Of gathering or consolidating voices, maybe you'll listen to this. And you know well how much I hate a slacktivist. I cannot, you know, a Black Lives Matter Facebook picture or a fucking ribbon on your fucking Twitter profile. I hate it. I hate it. And this is the exact inverse of that. This is doing something so impactful with, you know, knowing full well that you won't live to see the other side. [02:02:52] Speaker A: You're here. [02:02:53] Speaker B: Mmm. [02:02:55] Speaker A: Interesting stuff. [02:02:56] Speaker B: Much to consider. [02:02:58] Speaker A: Much to consider. Have you ever engaged in an extreme form of protest, dear listener? I'm always surprised, you know, looking at my blue, blue sky feed and stuff that people will just casually talk about, like, oh yeah, the first time I was arrested for blah blah blah blah blah. In protests, this happened. And people have been like, arrested multiple times doing various forms of protest and things like that. So if you have a good protest story, do let us know. Very curious about that. Or an extreme protest that you've always been fascinated by that we didn't cover. Also fill us in on that. Also if you've ever had a weird, surreal Q and a with a celebrity, would love to hear about that as well. You know, if you live near a Superfund site and maybe have radioactive powers, love to hear about that. You know, just. Just chat with us on the Facebook, on the blue sky, wherever you find us on the discord. Although sometimes we forget to check that unless we are actively having a thing going on. Like, poor Colin had a message about the AI episode that I didn't see till like three weeks later, but still give it a whirl. We. [02:04:09] Speaker B: And we're gonna share. We're gonna share that. That dead Kennedy's track I spoke about. [02:04:12] Speaker A: Oh yes, please do. [02:04:14] Speaker B: Tells everything that Corey cold open in four. Amazing. Punk rock. [02:04:19] Speaker A: It took me 27 minutes to get through what the dead Kennedys managed in a few minutes. [02:04:28] Speaker B: A lot of fun. A lot of fun. [02:04:31] Speaker A: Hope you enjoyed your medicine, you crazy kids. Get out there. Have a great week. [02:04:37] Speaker B: Dose stay spooky.

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