Ep. 235: the end times buffet

[00:00:05] Speaker A: What? Did you hear that? [00:00:08] Speaker B: What? [00:00:08] Speaker A: I swallowed. I swallowed weird. And it sounded like I was about to just throw up all of my keyboard. [00:00:14] Speaker B: Nice. [00:00:15] Speaker A: Yep. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Right, listen, you're getting on my case about swallowing a pill with liquid, and you can't even swallow your spit without throwing up. [00:00:23] Speaker A: You swallow this. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Wow. Finger. [00:00:27] Speaker A: All right, listen, I'm not. I don't want to fuck about this week. Right. Absolutely no fucking. I'm going. I want to go straight in with the big. Right. Straight in with the big questions. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Diving in. I'm going deep. That's a Christian song, which is thematic, so absolutely perfect. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Right. For the purposes of this opening little dialogue. Yeah. I would like you in character, please. I want you in character as a evangelist, missionary. Okay. Okay, Right. I will be in character just for this first couple of minutes as kind of a smart ass atheist who thinks he's got all the answers and is. Wants to fucking, you know. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Oh, boy. Okay. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Get into it. Right. Did you come across this kind of guy at all during your. [00:01:17] Speaker B: To be clear, I didn't do that kind of missions work. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:22] Speaker B: I did the go into schools and like, give presentations kind of missions work, you know? [00:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, know ye of Pascal's Wager. [00:01:34] Speaker B: The. The phrase is familiar. If you say what it is, I will know what you're talking. [00:01:38] Speaker A: All right, all right, all right, all right. So Pascal's wager, named from a guy from the 17th century French theologian, Guy Blaise Pascal. Right? [00:01:50] Speaker B: Right. Yes. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Now, it is a kind of a theological argument thought experiment where you kind of get your head around the. The rationality, the rational basis for theistic beliefs. Right? [00:02:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:08] Speaker A: And the argument comes down to this idea that when you believe in God, whether you know it or not, you're kind of rolling the dice, you're making a big bet. Right? [00:02:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:23] Speaker A: So if you go with the fact that God exists, if you believe in God, if you dedicate your life to God, then you get infinite reward after death in heaven. Yes. But what you miss out on is earthly pleasure and, you know, kind of the life free of, I guess, bondage, the bondage of faith. Right? [00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:54] Speaker A: Whereas on the other hand, the other side of the coin, if you don't believe in God, you get, you know, the pleasures of the fucking mortal realm, pleasures of the flesh, freedom of thought and. And experience. But you are gambling with infinite damnation afterwards. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Right? [00:03:15] Speaker A: Right. So doesn't it hold that it makes more sense to believe in God? [00:03:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:27] Speaker A: Because the risk is far greater than if you don't. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Right. This is absolutely, you know, I think very much one of the things that the core. Because, you know, as I say every time we talk about this, that my faith was sort of built on fear. Right, right. About various unknowns in the universe. So this is absolutely one of the, like, central things at the core of my belief, and especially when it came to deconstructing, as we evangelicals or exvangelicals call it, when you start to take apart all those beliefs and stuff, that is one of the things that makes it like, very hard to like, fully, you know, lean into atheism or even agnosticism. Because you're thinking like, well, if I at least kind of like keep, like I hedge my bet a little bit here. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Then at least, you know, then hopefully when I get there, God's gonna be like, no, I see. You know, you were, you were there. Whereas if I fully go the other way, I am risking that I'm wrong and that's eternal damnation. [00:04:34] Speaker A: So using Pascal's wager as a basis here, what absolute lunatic would choose a life outside of God knowing that what you're risking, what you're staking is eternal damnation for the sake of maybe 80 years, 70 years? All right, this so called freedom. But Corrigan, Corrigan, from my point of view here, what Pascal has completely failed to take into account is that his God is the right God. [00:05:14] Speaker B: This is very true. And one that, you know, you have to do a lot of. Well, it's a second wager. Right. It's a whole other wager that you have to have. And one of the things that, you know, say if I'm in character as, you know, the missionary or whatever, the, the thing that I'm going to use is the Bible. Right, Right. Which is completely circular, that I have this book that says that this is right. And that's how I know that this is the, the correct. [00:05:52] Speaker A: You can't use the book to prove the book. [00:05:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:56] Speaker A: That would be the equivalent of me saying like, well, I believe in the tooth fairy because the tooth fairy told me she was real. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Right. And if I'm, you know, so for better or for worse, I think I, I went to Christian college. And one of the interesting things about specifically the one I went to, not all of them are like this. Like, if you're talking about like say liberty or something like that, you're not going to get any real education about other worldviews or anything like that. But I will say for vanguard, there was a lot of like, instruction on what other people believe. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Vanguard being and stuff like that. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Huh? [00:06:29] Speaker A: Vanguard is Mike school that I went to. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Right, okay, sorry. Vanguard University of Southern California. And so there was a degree to which, like, I think a lot of my peers, not all of them, like, if you're a religion major or something like that, you might kind of skirt these kinds of courses and whatnot. But a lot of my peers and I knew enough about other religions that we could say something along the lines of, like, there are commonalities between, you know, every one of the stories, right? Like, oh, yes, you know this. And you can use this like in conspiracy theory too. Like, say, remember 2012 when everybody was like, oh, there's like a thousand different groups of people on earth that said that the world's gonna end in 2012. Right. Like, so they must be right or things like that. So if I'm trying to convince you of this, I would point out that the Christian worldview on X thing is also present in Islam, it's present in Judaism, it's present in Christ in some Eastern forms of spirituality, etc. Etc. And how I know is that I can see the evidence of this, this and this in the Bible that is also sort of borne out by observation made by cultures around the world. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yep. [00:07:53] Speaker B: So the fact that other groups have seen this actually can play into the validation of what's in the Bible. They. They may have interpreted it wrong, but. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Ah, and there it is. The same thing that is what you would say is the position, well, look, if all of the characters are kind of the same, right? And the, you know, the, the kind of. The way it plays out and the key figures, they're all the same. They've all just interpreted it kind of wrongly. [00:08:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:22] Speaker A: And we're the right ones. Mm, doesn't do it for me. Doesn't. Doesn't quite work. [00:08:28] Speaker B: No, it's. It's pretty circular. I mean, someone was posting and obviously this is not to derail from where you're going with this, but someone was posting the other day a thing that I felt was very apt about, like, proselytizing just as a thing. Right. And the idea that like, proselytizing inherently assumes like a patronizing, condescending position that I have the superior knowledge. [00:08:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:58] Speaker B: And I'm going to, I'm going to impart this. I'm going to save you with this superior knowledge, which again, like, you can very easily move over into conspiracy theory and stuff like that. There's. It's a very thin line between religious belief and conspiracy theory, but I think you Know, that is sort of a central element of this, is that at your core, you kind of have to think that you found the right way. And that says more about you than about God or anything else. Right. Like, I have determined that I, I am smart enough to know. And the humble way of phrasing that is that God has spoken it to me and, you know, it's not me, but him speaking through me. But that you think you've been able to discern this versus the billions of other people on earth who haven't. [00:09:48] Speaker A: And at a certain point, the argument ends at, no, no, they're wrong. [00:09:54] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. There comes a point in the argument that it's like that. I mean, just agree to disagree. Right. There's not really any further that you could go with with that argument. Although you can see I'm always fascinated by this in like, still in like Instagram comments or things like that, you know, where people will, like, be very insulting about atheists and stuff like that and, and have this, like, deep certainty about it. And they'll try to, you know, these one that I will devolve, always enjoy. [00:10:32] Speaker A: I always enjoy coming across. Well, atheists, they add nothing. You know what I mean? It's just such an empty life, you know? [00:10:38] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker A: You believe in. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Right. And where does your morality come from? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I think there was one of those awful jubilee debates recently that had something. I think it was. I think it was Jordan Peterson versus atheists or something like that that this came up in. But his argument was essentially like, even if you don't know you believe in God, you do because you believe in morality and therefore you believe in God. [00:11:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:12] Speaker B: Like. Huh? Like what? You can't answer that. There's just nothing you can do. [00:11:20] Speaker A: A particularly risible angle that I've seen on the scrolls of late is a kind of a street evangelist, a street preacher confronting passersby with the absolutely un. Fucking just bulletproof logic. Right. That goes like. Well, Corrigan, take a look at your watch for me. Have a look at your watch. Your watch. [00:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Looking at it. [00:11:47] Speaker A: That was. That was created. [00:11:49] Speaker B: Yes, sure. Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker A: It is a complex piece of equipment, a complex piece of machinery. [00:11:56] Speaker B: Yes, that it is. Yeah. I don't know how it works. [00:11:59] Speaker A: You didn't see who created that, did you? [00:12:03] Speaker B: I didn't know. [00:12:05] Speaker A: You don't. You look at that. You don't, but you see the creation. [00:12:10] Speaker B: You're. You're driving me, isn't it? You're driving me to my favorite Lyric here, go on. Can you catch the wind? Can you see the breeze? Its presence is revealed by the leaves on the tree. [00:12:24] Speaker A: Exactly. You know, you're a complex being on you. You must be also created, as was your watch that you got on piss ass. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Right. I. I mean, I could fly and go see the sweatshop in which this thing was manufactured. Should, you know, should I need to. You're. It's the Kirk Cameron effect. The Kirk Cameron and the banana. You ever. You seen that? [00:12:48] Speaker A: Oh, the. Perfectly made for the monkey. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Perfectly made for the. Well, human hand, but. Yes, yes, exactly. [00:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm also a fan of, you know. Well, the opposing argument that I'm a big fan of is, you know, the, the. The water looks at the glass and thinks, I. I was made for this glass. I fit it perfectly. The puddle thinks that, you know, that it was made to fit in the ditch, but, you know, that's a favorite. But look, I come to you this week with glad tidings. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Wonderful blessings upon him. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Thrice, thrice blessed art thou. Right. Because I come to you with great news. Because if. If you can't really refute that Pascal, he was the puddle thinking that the world was made for him, right? He was the puddle thinking, well, there's one God. And you either, you know, you either bet on red or black. If. If you can't really refute the fact that maybe you're the one that's got it wrong, you're the one that's misinterpreted it, perhaps that means you've got some choices, doesn't it? That means you've got choices to make. And when Better than now in 2025 on the burning Earth to really fucking stake your claim. Decide right now how you want to check out. Decide which version of the End Times you want to get on board with. [00:14:23] Speaker B: This is actually very appropriate. I've been in like a disaster end times mood kind of situation. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:32] Speaker B: I was going to watch the Day After Tomorrow last night, then I scrolled down on the letterbox to like the section of like movies like this. And I've seen basically every disaster movie ever made. But it led me to watch knowing last night, which is real. End of the world, right there. [00:14:53] Speaker A: Nick Cage. Is that Nick Cage? [00:14:54] Speaker B: Nick Cage? Yeah, sure. Exactly. So I am. I'm primed. I'm in the zone to think about this. [00:15:01] Speaker A: Good. What have we? I mean, hell, what have we? What. What is the one conversation we've been having for the last five years. It's a privileged seat that we've all got front row fucking tickets, everyone to the end of the world. So I invite you now to just talk through with Corrigan and I some theistic views of the end times. Why don't we, why don't we just like take a little look at what's on offer, you know, at what that last ride is gonna look like. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Eat at the end times buffet. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Come on, get yourself a fucking grab a plate. We've got those little peanut chicken satay skewer things that I love so much. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Oh, fancy buffet. [00:15:44] Speaker A: I love those. Why don't we start with Christianity? Right? Why don't we start with your jam in particular and, and stop me if I've got this wrong. [00:15:50] Speaker B: Right, well, it's complicated, so, you know, go for it. [00:15:57] Speaker A: Okay. I am not, I'm no Christian, but from what I can gather, we're talking about Revelations. Yes. We're talking about the book of Revelations. Is that correct? [00:16:06] Speaker B: Revelation. But yes, revelation. [00:16:08] Speaker A: I apologize. I apologize. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Just the one. Seems one big revelation. [00:16:14] Speaker A: So the scene we are painted here is one of I would call celestial violence. What do we say? The four horsemen, One rider as a bell rides a steed. White. Famine, war, death. And what is the fourth? [00:16:35] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:16:38] Speaker A: All right, well, that's disappointing that you wouldn't know. [00:16:41] Speaker B: I am not just to out the gate. Start with this. The whole end time theology and rapture and all of that stuff that's wrapped up in all of that is like very fraught, even amongst Christians. Interesting. And so what evangelicals believe about it, it's not what like most Christians around the world believe about it. And most denominations don't put so much focus on the end times as evangelicals do either. And so this was always kind of a bone of contention for me. I mean, I enjoyed the Left behind books as much as the next evangelical, but I always felt that as a nonfiction idea, this is kind of bullshit. [00:17:36] Speaker A: Well, I'm delighted to hear you say that. A level headed lady of science, because I mean, is it. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Go on. Yeah, go on. [00:17:43] Speaker A: And is it the case, would many evangelicals believe that this idea. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Really disgusting pronunciation. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Evangelicals. [00:17:52] Speaker B: He hated that. [00:17:54] Speaker A: Is it viewed as a kind of a literal description of events that will unfold? Heaven, Armageddon, all of that. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Right. So for evangelical Christians, it is like a series of events that are actually going to happen that involves. And the way that those things unfold can be different between denominations and whatnot. But ultimately, you know, a point at which God's people, people who believe in him are taken to be with him, then there's a period of tribulation, you know, and yes, all of this horrible shit is going to happen and then eventually the earth is destroyed in order to make a new Earth for, you know, his people. Essentially. [00:18:45] Speaker A: Sounds pretty good. [00:18:47] Speaker B: I mean, not for all the people who are here during the tribulation and whatnot, but sounds. [00:18:52] Speaker A: Sounds cool. At least it would be something. [00:18:54] Speaker B: There's a reason that there's so many movies that have been made about this since like the 70s or 80s when they, I think like Megiddo or whatever came out to, you know, the Left behind series to the reboot of Left behind with Nick Cage, to, you know, Omega Factor. There's so many things about this because as. And my mother, she read all of the Left behind books and she always said, like, as a sci fi horror. Yeah, this is like, this is good shit. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, look, if it sounds kind of bland, you've got options. Like I say, you've got options. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker A: Certain things, you're over it. [00:19:33] Speaker B: Seem too much of this one. [00:19:34] Speaker A: Yes. Lots in common with the end times myth of Islam. Okay, Lots in common. Lots in common. Sure. [00:19:44] Speaker B: I can imagine. Go on. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Islam, just for those who might want to know it, it's based on following five pillars, you know, charity, fasting, prayer and possibly some others. But end times, very, very similar sounding, are Christian end times. So the Quran and the Hadith, which are the. The kind of collected sayings of the Prophet, speak of a time of moral decay, a time of chaos and lack of faith giving way to signs, you know, smoke, clouds, beasts rising from the earth, the sun rising in the west. And the Dajjal will spread deception. The Dajjal, the false Messiah. [00:20:39] Speaker B: So this is. That's the Antichrist. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah, okay, exactly this, exactly this. Spreading his tentacles of fucking deception until. Until the Mahdi descends. And also Jesus, weirdly named Isa, Isa slays the Dajjal and rules over earth justly. This is quite cool. Two trumpet blasts will be blown by the angel Israfiel. The first blast of the trumpet will signal the death of all, and the second burst of the trumpet will herald resurrection and judgment. Sick as fuck. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Pretty sure that that also exists in Revelation as well. [00:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, sure. [00:21:27] Speaker B: It's. I mean, obviously. Trumpets. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah. TRUMPETS play. Yes, of course. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Right. I think, you know, that's interesting that I've never really considered that like Islam would have that similar sort of thing because I often, you know, when the, when it comes to the like Abrahamic religions and whatnot, like Islam is usually left out of It. We talk about, like, Judeo Christian ideas, and that's just racism. Right. Like, there's no reason why Islam isn't considered amongst that group of things, except that we don't want to include them. But when it comes to, like, the Jewish faith, I've known lots of Jews growing up. You know, there's a lot of Jews in my hometown in Northern California. I went to a bajillion bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs when I was a kid, all that kind of stuff. But most of, like, the Jewish folks that I knew weren't religiously Jewish. They were culturally Jewish. And so that doesn't mean that, like, the Torah and all the other, you know, different Jewish sacred books don't have end times in them. But as a result, I never heard stories of end times or anything like that from them. And so to have Islam have something that is so similar to the book of Revelation, A, makes me want your Jews have it too. But B also is interesting in terms of being left out of the, like, triad of religions that are all based on the same thing when it is so closely related to ours. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Well, you may want to give Hinduism a go then. [00:23:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Hey, you may want to dive in and. And. And convert, because this is where we get a little bit cosmic. [00:23:17] Speaker B: It feels all right. [00:23:20] Speaker A: So Hinduism speaks of time. Time itself being divided into kind of cyclical forms, repeating cycles of time known as yugas. Yes. And right now, you and I, we live in Kali Yuga, which is the Age of Darkness. [00:23:42] Speaker B: Oh, no, Right. [00:23:44] Speaker A: We're in it. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Oh, they got that one right. [00:23:46] Speaker A: Right. And as Kali Yuga progresses, humanity becomes ever more violent, ever more greedy. Chaos takes control. Feels pretty on the nose so far. [00:24:02] Speaker B: So far, the Hindus are winning. [00:24:03] Speaker A: Yes. But check this out. So many fucking common themes. Amidst this reign of chaos comes Kalki, who is a fucking avatar of Vishnu, blazing out the fucking skies on a white horse with a sword cleansing the earth. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Laying waste. [00:24:23] Speaker B: It's crazy. It's literally the same thing. I see Jesus riding on a white horse. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Isn't it incredible? [00:24:32] Speaker B: That's. I would. I was not expecting for Hinduism to. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Yep. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Have the same imagery, to have the. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Same kind of big face figure. [00:24:42] Speaker B: Huh. That's fascinating. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Maybe we all just need to wish on Kalki to come at the sky on his white horse with his fucking sword of righteousness. [00:24:53] Speaker B: It's interesting. I mean, I don't know if you saw. So in terms of. We're in this age of darkness, right? [00:25:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:25:04] Speaker B: Is that like, so is that a timeline, or is it our part? So, like, in the 1500s. Sorry, dog. Yeah, Walter, Call me your tits, buddy. I think the neighbors just got home from vacation, and Walter ain't having it. Come on, man. Can you not. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Hey, Wally, you should lean out the window and shout down to them and ask them where they've been, as is the New Jersey way. [00:25:36] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Where are you going? [00:25:38] Speaker A: Hey, where you been? [00:25:42] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Okay. Can you. Can you hear him barking? [00:25:46] Speaker A: No. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Okay, Zoom is taking it out? [00:25:48] Speaker A: It would seem so, yes. [00:25:49] Speaker B: Okay, good. For the record, everyone, we're using the Zoom audio today because of the air conditioning, because it is 98 degrees and feels like 103. [00:25:59] Speaker A: So I think your question was, if we'd been born, like, 400 years ago, would we still have been in Cali? [00:26:04] Speaker B: Yes. Is this in Times? Yeah. Or is this, like, the timeline we live in? Like, there's alternate timelines. [00:26:11] Speaker A: So all I. All I'm gathering here is that it is cyclical and that the. This. This process of decay and corruption is gradual and insidious. It's something that seems to be happening around us. So we haven't brought this on. It's just. It's just where we're born. [00:26:27] Speaker B: Interesting, because, I mean, that's obviously what sets it apart. Right. Is that in Christianity and I'm assuming Islam as well, I think from what you just described, there's a degree to which our, you know, godlessness, our sinfulness and whatnot causes us to fall into this period in which all of this stuff happens, and then Jesus has to come in and destroy the Earth and raise it back up and all that kind of stuff, where this Hindu one is just. This is the natural cycle of being. [00:27:01] Speaker A: Yes. And what is interesting to me about the. About what I can gather from the Hindu version of events is that this isn't an end, it's a reset. [00:27:13] Speaker B: Right. It's. [00:27:14] Speaker A: So when Kalki comes and does forest burning. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yes. We go back to the golden age, renewal as opposed to slaughter, you know? [00:27:24] Speaker B: Right. Yes. Yeah, that. That's really interesting. I mean, the idea, again, I'm, like, kind of processing, you know, what causes these religions to think the way they do. And that's a fascinating concept because I think it's one that a lot of, like, indigenous cultures and whatnot have about the idea of, like, cycles, which is observable in nature. Right. We know, of course, that is kind of how things work, untouched by us, that there's, you know, periods of, like, I was saying, forest Burning. Whether we're there to light them or not, a forest will burn. Right. And these ideas of like, rebirth, we know, like seasons are observable, these seasons in which things die and then things come back to life. And so it's sort of applying that on a broader scale, what we see in our regular observable everyday life, applying that to the world. [00:28:20] Speaker A: I'm, I'm certain that I'm oversimplifying this, but it feels that that shares a narrative with Buddhism more than it does the Christian. [00:28:33] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:28:34] Speaker A: You know, Islamic story that we just heard. Because Buddhism once again, is all about cyclical, cyclical timeline, cyclical rebirth and decay. Not fucking, you know, zeroing and fixating on that singular end times kind of prophecy, but more of a kind of moral decline, spiritual decline, leading to an, kind of a collapse and a rebirth. [00:29:02] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:29:03] Speaker A: It's. You'll have heard the Dharma, yes. Teaching cosmic law. And Buddhism speaks of over time, the, the that teaching the Dharma being forgotten, human lifespans grow shorter, humanity becomes cruel, and that heralds the birth of a new Buddha. Mitreya, the future Buddha is then born, who teaches the lost humans the, the that path again and begins a brand new golden age, which I'm into. I, I quite like that. [00:29:43] Speaker B: You would. I think it's, it's interesting. See, that's interesting though, because that again, kind of points back to more like the Christian and Islamic versions of this, wherein we do something that causes it so we forget to, you know, practice the things at the, at the heart of, of this faith, and then somebody has to come around who is born. That saves us. [00:30:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:17] Speaker B: From it. [00:30:18] Speaker A: You know, it's certainly, I think it's worth pointing out that Buddhism, Hinduism, those, those kind of, those end times, those cyclical kind of endings that I've spoken about. That's why I asked right at the start is if, if Christians believe this in a literal sense, if the seven seals will literally get broken and the, that you will literally see rivers of blood and so on. Right. Because what it seems to me is that these, these Buddhist beliefs, these Hinduistic beliefs are often symbolic, you know, metaphorical kind of depictions of, of psychological and spiritual kind of moral decay rather than actual physical beings turning up to sort it out. [00:31:04] Speaker B: And to that end, I think for worldwide Christians, that is often how they see the Book of Revelation. They don't see it as there will literally be these things and the earth will be destroyed and, you know, all these kinds of things that it's symbolic. It's, you know, supposed to be guidance for us to avoid moral decay, to avoid the things that, you know, would lead us into disaster. Right, yes. It's kind of telling us about like, you know, it's. It's warnings for us about, you know, what we should be like. It's not actually telling us that, you know, all of this horrific stuff, there's going to be a literal Antichrist and all of that sort of stuff. And most Christians around the world, I'd say, would look at it as a metaphor and not as literal do you know. [00:31:56] Speaker A: But the same characters keep popping up. We're right to talk about Zoroastrianism. Okay, yeah, sure. Old as Fuck. We're talking 6th century Iranian, ex. Persian religion, Zoroastrianism. We're talking about the prophet Zarathustra, a kind of a battle between good and evil. Ahura Mazda, which is the. The wise Lord, the Lord of Wisdom and the destructive spirit, Angra Manyu. And just a battle between those two, that messianic figure called Sao Shiant, arising and leading the resurrection of the dead through something called Frasc Charity. The Final Renovation will fall. Yeah, I know. Final renovation, like a paint knock a few walls through. But this is terrific, right? It speaks about how the righteous will be purified by walking through a river of molten metal. That's pretty sick, isn't it? [00:33:09] Speaker B: No, thank you. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Yeah, but because they're saved, this river of molten metal will feel to them as a warm bath whilst the wicked are cleansed through torment. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Okay, pretty good. Interesting. What is Zoroastrianism like, related to? Are there modern religions that are based off of it or is it its own thing? [00:33:33] Speaker A: Well, I don't know, obviously, but the. It's, it's. It's one of the oldest monotheistic religions out there. It's old as fuck. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker A: So take from that what you will. I don't know if it's. If it's too old to be pulling. If it's too old to be helping itself from other texts or. [00:33:51] Speaker B: Yeah, other texts are helping themselves to age. [00:33:54] Speaker A: Exactly, yes. [00:33:56] Speaker B: I mean, I think, you know, I can't remember where, you know, I've talked about this before, but it's always interesting to me. I think it's hard to talk about end times theology without talking about other, like conspiracy and especially end times conspiracy. And one of the things that I've always found fascinating about it is just thinking about the idea that, like, oh, each of these things developed in their corner of the world. Right. And then that is to. To a Christian, let's say that Is evidence that, you know, God was speaking to all of us. Right. And you know, again, the interpretations may have been wrong or things like that. You know, this shows that there is a universal truth to all of this. And I remember during like the, you know, the 2012ish time, there was a show on Discovery Channel or History Channel called Nostradamus Effect. One of my history teachers was on it sometimes and it was just like a dumb show where they talked about like conspiracies and things like that and like the idea of like Nostradamus predicting things and all of that. And you know, one of the things that they would talk about on here is like, oh, well this developed here and here, so we know that there must be some like truth or whatever to it. And I always thought the thing that I'm sure many like archaeologists and things like this think is holy shit. There was probably contact between people long before we thought there was. Right? Like that is where my brain goes. It doesn't go, oh yeah, that means God transmitted what day the world was going to end to people. To me that says tribalism, nomadic, right? Like how were the Chinese in Mexico? That's what I want to know. Like what, how did that transmission happen? I don't think it was magic. I think somehow these people were communicating with each other before. Like we have records of. Right? Like that seems like the far more likely thing in these situations. [00:36:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean again, if you would, if you would go back into character, then I would ask you, if God wanted to reveal himself to the world, what was he doing? For the fucking thousands of years of. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Early humans, the world is only 6,000 years old, first of all. [00:36:30] Speaker A: Okay, okay, you got me. [00:36:35] Speaker B: I don't know how you're gonna get past that one. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Would an all knowing God choose perhaps a better way of announcing himself to the world other than just appearing to like a small tribe of people in Jerusalem? [00:36:54] Speaker B: Well, free will, mark, right? God doesn't force himself on us and thus leaves clues that we should be able to see him through. And he wants us to find him of our own volition. And therefore if he were to come down and just be like, hey, look at me, I'm God, then he would be forcing himself upon us as opposed to letting us find him. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Free will to like, to one guy. [00:37:29] Speaker B: Well, there isn't a guy necessarily. I mean, so obviously you've got Jesus, who is God, right? Same guy. There's no. Yeah, different. I'm talking about like Moses, like Moses for example, which you know, is not Necessarily, like, so God doesn't reveal himself as God again. Right. Like, he doesn't come down in whatever form God is. He reveals himself in a burning bush. Right. So he's never. He doesn't reveal himself. And to Christians, again, especially to evangelicals, he is doing this to us all the time. Right. Through the Holy Spirit. So he didn't just appear to Moses. He didn't just appear to Noah. He appears to me constantly when I pray. He comes in and he inhabits my body through the Holy Spirit, and then I am able to speak to him that way. And. Yeah, so we all have that. That's a key element of Protestantism. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Nobody thought of it in those terms before the founding of Christianity, surely. Nobody. [00:38:43] Speaker B: What do you mean? [00:38:43] Speaker A: That's. When is the. When does the Bible claim to have been written the Old Testament? [00:38:52] Speaker B: Well, that's complicated. [00:38:55] Speaker A: Just give me the Cliffs Notes. [00:38:56] Speaker B: Well, because here's the. It's not. It's not written like that. It's a collection of. [00:39:02] Speaker A: An account book. Yes, yes. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Collection of accounts, all written at different times throughout all of human history. Then groups of men came together and decided which books are the divine ones from God, and that creates the Bible. So they're forever. They're always there. [00:39:19] Speaker A: I guess the time isn't even important. Like, it was collected and transcribed and laid down at some point. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Various points. Yes. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Right. But I mean, before that point, nobody was describing things in the way. You just have. God speaks to us all. All the time. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Well, right, That's. That's Protestantism. So you have like an entire Reformation over that. You know, luther knocking the 99 theses on the door of the church and all that stuff. So this is what separates Christians Protestants from Catholics. Right. Catholics don't believe this. Right. You can't talk to God if you're a Catholic. You talk to a saint who talks to God for you. [00:40:06] Speaker A: Sure, sure, sure. [00:40:07] Speaker B: So correct. In all of Christian history. No, not necessarily. Could everyone talk to God? But for any Protestant that you talk to in the past, you know, however long it's been since then, since the Protestant Reformation, we all have access to directly to revelation from God. [00:40:30] Speaker A: But what I'm. What I. What. I still can't quite get my head around this, which feels like a plot hole to me. [00:40:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:39] Speaker A: Is that. That's only the terminology that we were using since Protestant Protestantism was formed. What was. Go. Why didn't God. What was. [00:40:50] Speaker B: What was God up to before he was trying to. That's the idea. Right. The entire omnipotent. Right. But he's not forcing himself on us. He's all powerful, but he does not exert that power. [00:41:02] Speaker A: So there was a point where God was like, they are, they are not getting it right. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Or where like, yeah, he spoke to someone who was able to then bring this to the masses. Right? But the ultimate idea, again, I'm talking to you in character. [00:41:18] Speaker A: No, I know, I know. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Responding in kindness, you're responding. But just to be clear, for anyone listening here, like it is, it's a plot hole, sure. But you have to take into account, right, when it comes to Christianity that it is in large part ahistorical, right. It doesn't sit in history the way that we want it to. And so the idea is that God doesn't change. He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, right? So he has always been communicating to us individually and things like that. But we have to have ears to hear in order to get that right. And so for again, for like Protestants today, like, this is why they don't consider Catholics to be Christians because it's like, it's cult behavior. They've put idols between them and God. Instead of talking directly to God, they're praying to saints and saints are idols. Those are not. That's not how we speak to God. That's the way, you know, people did it in the old days, right? This is what, you know, the Greeks would do and stuff like that. You know, put these like lesser little minions in between before you get to the big guy. And so for Christians, it's important to, you know, have this sense that you can speak to God directly. And that ultimately is why thus everyone has the capacity to know God, right? Like, so when we talk about all of these different end times theologies and stuff like that, what a Christian hears is they were all given the information. They just didn't, you know, listen well enough to hear what God was actually saying to them. [00:43:22] Speaker A: It still feels like an all fucking powerful being would have had a better way of doing this and making himself known to people in a way that left no room for doubt or interpretation. [00:43:36] Speaker B: That takes away our covenant free will. That's the problem. So, you know, there's a couple sort of verses in there that are key to this whole thing. You know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, blah, blah, blah, you know, that one John 3:16, that whole thing, there's, you know, the idea that God is not willing that any should perish, right? There is, you know, various sort of parables. Parables. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, parables, that's the word, right? [00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. An earthly story with a heaven. [00:44:12] Speaker B: Okay, good. For some reason my brain was like, that's not a. That's not a word. That's like a math thing. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Pair of balls. [00:44:22] Speaker B: There's various parables that kind of. [00:44:23] Speaker A: I got a pair of balls right here. [00:44:27] Speaker B: I think I was thinking of parabolas is what was happening in my brain. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Parables. The hell. [00:44:36] Speaker B: But there's all these little stories and things like that that kind of point us at the idea that basically make it so that we can excuse that. Yes. The obvious thing would be God should tell us he's there. Right. Because there's no God to tell us he's there. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:57] Speaker B: And so instead we come up with, you know, these verses that explain to us why it would be somehow interfering with us. [00:45:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:06] Speaker B: To tell us he's here. [00:45:09] Speaker A: The Catholics have certainly got that bit covered. They do. Plenty of interfering with us, from what I gather. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Well, and the Christians do, too. Let's. [00:45:19] Speaker A: Yes, indeed, indeed. Look, what I'm saying is. Crew, right, You've got options. You've got options. And that's without even going into the fucking. Further out on the fringes. Realism, for example, the. The idea that humanity will destroy itself and our DNA will be preserved by. By, you know, a higher being who will resurrect us on another planet. You know what I mean? That would be quite cool. You've got the. So the theosophy, the ethereal society. You've got so many options of how you want to check out. All you got to do is fucking commit. Commit. Because the alternative is it seems as though the end times are going to play out in one of the most dismal, fucking boring ways. [00:46:17] Speaker B: It's not boring. [00:46:18] Speaker A: Oh, it's gonna be. [00:46:20] Speaker B: There's like, you know what I mean? Fire and plague and, you know, all. All the. All the things. [00:46:27] Speaker A: Fire and plague and things gradually getting worse. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Oh, it's not. I mean. Well, I guess that depends on your theology. But it's not supposed to be gradual. It's supposed to. [00:46:36] Speaker A: But what I'm saying. What I'm. The. The. The. What I. From my perspective is the true way, the atheist way is a pretty dismal end of the world. It's just. [00:46:48] Speaker B: Oh, I see, you're talking about that. The actual. [00:46:50] Speaker A: I'm talking about the actual way. Yes. Buy into one of these and at least you'll get a. Something for the story. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Now I gotcha. As opposed to it's just, you know, we can't stop buying iPhones, and so the world is gonna end. [00:47:07] Speaker A: There's adverts on prime, you know. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:14] Speaker A: Just give me something fun here. [00:47:16] Speaker B: Here. [00:47:18] Speaker A: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:47:20] Speaker B: Yes, please do. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:47:25] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said misel said in such a horny way before. [00:47:30] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex cannibal. Recently. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:47:36] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm. I'm going to leg it. [00:47:42] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:47:45] Speaker A: I think you feel great about it. Welcome, friends. Welcome to our curated, cultivated, exclusive inner circle of drifters, mystics, nihilists and scientists, atheists, anarchists, fucking cannibals and malcontents. Oh, wow. This is your podcast. We are your people, and we ain't going anywhere. Welcome to another episode of that podcast, Cheekful Grapes. [00:48:25] Speaker B: I would just like for everyone to know, because this always amazes me every time that when Marco comes up with these insane lists of things, he's not reading them off anything. That's just his brain. [00:48:36] Speaker A: Just who we are. That's who our people are. That's who we connect with, you know, cannibals. Statistically, we probably have a few. [00:48:48] Speaker B: What statistic is that operating off of? [00:48:51] Speaker A: Well, everybody knows the statistics. One in 40 people, isn't it? [00:48:56] Speaker B: Is that so? [00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah. One in 40 people has. And you can look this up, tried or categorizes themselves as likely to try human meat. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Well, there you go. [00:49:12] Speaker A: Look it up. [00:49:13] Speaker B: If I. If I bite my nails, is that, like, kind of cannibalistic? [00:49:17] Speaker A: That's auto cannibalism. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Okay, my bad. [00:49:20] Speaker A: That's one in. One in 60. [00:49:23] Speaker B: So more people. More people would eat someone else than themselves? [00:49:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do not know. [00:49:32] Speaker B: I had no idea. Thank you for enlightening me. [00:49:34] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, listen, welcome. Corry. How have you been? Everybody good with you? [00:49:40] Speaker B: It's fucking hot, Marco. That's all there is to it. [00:49:44] Speaker A: Things have cooled down here nicely, which is great. [00:49:47] Speaker B: Jealous. You got to, like, go to, like, the sea where everyone was wearing full clothing on the beach. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you what, this is why we didn't record Sunday, because we went for an impromptu night away at the seaside to catch the kind of last vestiges of whatever warm weather we're getting. [00:50:06] Speaker B: It wasn't really impromptu. I think you just forgot about it because you told me about it like, four weeks ago. [00:50:11] Speaker A: Corrie, Everything is impromptu when your name is Mark Lewis. Right. [00:50:15] Speaker B: When you have incredible brain fog. Everything is impromptu. [00:50:19] Speaker A: It's by turns frustrating and maddening and fun and exciting because everything is new. Everything is a surprise. But I can't remember what you told me two minutes ago or why I went into the kitchen. [00:50:33] Speaker B: Right. Yes. I asked you like, a month ago. I was like, are you and your family gonna, like, go on any vacations this summer? And you're like, oh, we got a bit little here and there. And then you were like, oh, actually here's one you'll like. We're going to a boat. [00:50:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we are. And we did. And if I told you that, I have no fucking memory of it at all. We did. We went to the Royal Naval Museum in. In is kind of on the south coast. Chichester, kind of Portsmouth kind of area. Right. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:51:04] Speaker A: West Wittering, I believe it's called. Very British. I'm sure you'd enjoy that. [00:51:08] Speaker B: Extremely. Yeah. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Now, we saw the. A ship called the Mary Rose. Right. [00:51:18] Speaker B: Okay. That's like such a classic ship name. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Well, and specifically because of this ship, I believe. And I felt as though I was betraying my family because the entire time I was there I was just thinking, fucking Corry would love this. [00:51:35] Speaker B: I'm with the wrong people here. [00:51:37] Speaker A: And I'm gonna share some photos with you because it's phenomenal. And I'm gonna tell me about that. I'll try and recount the story as well as I can remember it. [00:51:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:45] Speaker A: I'll absolutely bastardise this tale. [00:51:47] Speaker B: It's fine. I'll go look it up later. [00:51:50] Speaker A: This museum, I think, filled in a beautiful narrow part of the Venn diagram betwixt you and I. Right. [00:51:57] Speaker B: Oh, nice. Yes. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Because as you know, as everyone knows, I'm a big Tudor guy, right? [00:52:04] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:52:06] Speaker A: Famously, this re. Awoken and reinvigorated my Tudor phase. I'm a Tudor guy again now. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Oh, congratulations. [00:52:14] Speaker A: So here's the story, right? In the 1500s, the flagship of Henry VIII's naval power was a ship called the Mary Rose. Right. [00:52:27] Speaker B: Okay. [00:52:28] Speaker A: Super hardcore for the time. Kitted out. Cannons up the ass. Just a warship. Not all that impressive, as it turns out, because in the 1500s, during a. A a conflict with the French, it was sunk in the English Channel. Oh, right. Sank to the bottom of the ocean, taking all of its crew with it. A impressive armory, hospital kitchen. You know, just a fully, fully decked out military ship for the 1500s, it sank to the bottom. The English Channel was lost, right? Until in the 60s, I want to say 1960s, a amateur diver and seafaring guy, a hobbyist, decided he was gonna try and fucking find it. Right? [00:53:28] Speaker B: Okay. Love it. [00:53:31] Speaker A: Really just a layman, a fucking civilian. [00:53:34] Speaker B: Just a dude with a bee in his bonnet. [00:53:36] Speaker A: Exactly this. And he consulted naval records, historical documents, archives, maps, and found a document which suggested with, literally with an X, where the resting place of the Mary Rose. Right? Might be right, sure. This guy then enlists the help of a local kind of diving club of hobbyists. [00:54:01] Speaker B: Oh, amazing. [00:54:02] Speaker A: We're gonna fucking find the Mary Rose. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Love it. [00:54:06] Speaker A: And over years and years and years, they dive in these kind of, you know, 1960s diving outfits. Rubber and fucking huge helmets and giant air compressors on, on board their, their boats, sailing out, diving, coming back up, sharing notes, scrabbling through the dirt. And the trail goes cold for years and years and years until on one such dive, somebody finds a fucking cannon. [00:54:36] Speaker B: Oh, amazing. [00:54:39] Speaker A: A fucking cannon from the Mary Rose sticking out the dirt. And this reinvigorates the search and they zero in. They get closer and closer and closer until on one dive they find, you know, struts and timbers sticking out. They found the Mary Rose. [00:54:55] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:54:56] Speaker A: At which point this huge conservation effort kicks in. Every single time they dive, they're finding more and more coins, surgical implements, guns, clothes, bodies, and the entire. A fucking massive portion, like huge portion of the outer hull of the Mary Rose is just pretty much intact. [00:55:21] Speaker B: The water's pretty cold there. [00:55:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I imagine it's the bottom of the fucking channel. I imagine it would be. [00:55:26] Speaker B: Well, you know, not all water is like super, super cold, but that's like one of the reasons why, like say the terror and the Erebus, right? They found them because. And they're like so well preserved. In part because the water's so cold. [00:55:39] Speaker A: Yes. And we sat in the little cinema in the museum when we saw the story and it was a 4D experience, by the way. You put the glasses on to blow air in your face and they put bubbles in there. It's cool. [00:55:52] Speaker B: The smell of dead bodies. [00:55:54] Speaker A: They didn't. They didn't have smell o vision, unfortunately. That would have got a five star TripAdvisor review from me. But because it was under the soil and salt water and as you said, cold, it was incredibly well preserved. And many years pass and in the 80s, in the 1980s, I think it was 83, they fucking brought this motherfucker up. [00:56:14] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:56:15] Speaker A: Yep. I'm going to fucking show you a picture because it's great. [00:56:21] Speaker B: This is so cool. I, I mean, this is why I've talked before about the show that I love, Destination Unknown with Josh Gates. And one of the things that they do with that is he kind of goes to see like layman guys who are working on finding things and most of the time they don't necessarily find the things they're looking for and we just hear a good story. But sometimes he's there when like an incredible find like that happens. It's something that they've just been looking for for, you know, 200 years they managed to stumble upon. [00:56:52] Speaker A: Check that out. [00:56:53] Speaker B: Oh, this is very cool. Wow. This is, this is what they pulled up. It's. I mean, that is it. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Yes. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Kind of the entire frame. [00:57:04] Speaker A: Yep. [00:57:05] Speaker B: Of the ship. [00:57:06] Speaker A: Yep. And to, to get to the area where you can stand on a balcony and look at the thing in its entirety, you've got to go through an airlock. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:57:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to go into like a little holding area and they seal the. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Door behind you so that doesn't just fall apart. [00:57:20] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And they project like, like two pack 3D projections of people on the deck so you can get out. [00:57:28] Speaker B: I love that. That's one of my favorite, like, kind of museum isms of the past 20 years, is the use of projections and holograms and things like that. I think that is so cool. [00:57:39] Speaker A: It was excellent. There were human remains there that they'd found. Incredible. Let me just show you this one skeleton, this one, the skeleton I'm about to show you. They determined that this was an archer in the military and they knew this because shoulder joints hadn't formed probably. So this guy had been an archer since he was a kid from. [00:58:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. [00:58:07] Speaker A: Drawing back the bow on his longbow, there was kind of decay, degradation of his hip joints because of the weight and the stance that you use to pull the bow back. So this guy had been firing arrows since he was a kid and they found his fucking skeleton. [00:58:23] Speaker B: Wow, that's crazy. That is absolutely bonkers. I would love to go to this place. This is. I'm gonna drag you there again sometime to take me down there. Incredible stuff. [00:58:37] Speaker A: And there was, there was loads more as well. You get, you got to go on kind of World War I military boat, the HMS whatever it was. You get, yeah, Victory from a few hundred years ago. And then you get to do a boat trip around the dock where there are loads of current active naval vessels. [00:58:57] Speaker B: There yeah, because you sent me pictures of, like, other boats and things like that, which. This reminded me a lot of New York in a lot of these pictures. But this, man, this is heaven. Just boats on boats on boats. [00:59:11] Speaker A: Look at all those boats. [00:59:14] Speaker B: So many boats. He's just sending me picture on picture on picture of boats. And these are active. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Yeah, all but that last one. Yes, these are all active in service. Naval vessels. [00:59:28] Speaker B: Incredible stuff. [00:59:30] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:30] Speaker B: Beautiful. I love that you did that. I have spent today. So I've been having a bit of a trying term at work with some students who have made things somewhat difficult the past several weeks. And I have been a little stressed out and I haven't read any books or anything like that over the course of this month because I've just been stressed all the time. And so today I was like, I'm going to play some Disney Dreamlight Valley and I'm going to listen to a book. And so I went and I went on my Libby app and I, you know, hit the search function, went audiobook available now, History, Nature. And it found me a book that I am 54% through now after playing Disney Dreamlight Valley all morning, basically up until now, called into the raging sea, 33 mariners, one megastorm and the Sinking of El Faro by Rachel Slade. I think you would enjoy this. I was thinking about it. I was like, again, this kind of intersection of interests and whatnot, but talking about a hurricane that came through. So it's got a lot of climate change kind of issues and stuff like that. But one of the things that I'm always like, I always tell people about maritime museums and why I'm into boats and things like that. It's not necessarily. I'm not one of those people who knows every bit of the inner workings of boats and stuff like that. [01:01:03] Speaker A: I don't care to. [01:01:05] Speaker B: Right. Like, that's not really what interests me. What interests me is that you can learn so much about a country, a business or whatever based on their relationship with the sea. And this has so much context into it. There's even a part of this that's almost like a throwaway, what I assume is probably like a page in the actual physical book about why Florida is so racist. And, like, it just gives, you know, like, all of this, like, historical context and stuff like that to also describing, like, minute by minute, why this ship sunk and, you know, what was going on and basically all the mistakes that were made leading up to it and the errors and kind of political issues and things like that that lead to this Kind of thing happening. Oh, my God. It is exciting. It's interesting. It is the whole package. So I highly recommend, you know, I like the way it's read, but I'm sure it's great on paper too, so. Into the Raging Sea by Rachel Slade. [01:02:16] Speaker A: Superb. [01:02:17] Speaker B: Fantastic. [01:02:19] Speaker A: One of the boats that we got to go on on the weekend. Another cool thing I like outside of like, you know, putting projections on wrecks. One of the boats had guys in, in costume walking around in character talking to. Oh yeah, it was great. And a couple of them were really, really into it. They took it and they were in character giving you, you know, everything about their life. And just Owen was like wide eyed, just talking to the guy. What, what, what did you do with the guns? [01:02:53] Speaker B: And the guy was, love that. That's my favorite. I love when a kid gets into it too. Oh my gosh. There was. We had at the Museo, which is a museo museum I was a docent at in Anaheim. We had like a train exhibit and they let me, like, they brought in stuff so I could dress like a train conductor. And I was like, I'm sure you. [01:03:15] Speaker A: Would have enjoyed that. [01:03:16] Speaker B: I was having so much fun. But I love that kind of stuff. I'm such a sucker for living history. You know, I actually have a friend, Tiffany, who, that's what she's working on a book on right now is about living history. I think she did her dissertation on it as well with specifically Civil War reenactors. She came and visited because for like seven or eight years there was a Civil War reenactment the week before my birthday in Huntington Beach. And so get all my friends together and we go to the Civil War reenactment. So she actually came out one year, she was like, I can go and talk to reenactors for my dissertation. But I, you know, I think being from Massachusetts, living history is such an important part of like just our normal growing up experience. And I always have fond memories of, you know, you go places like Plymouth Plantation for, you know, your school trip and, you know, everybody's dressed as like pilgrims and going through their day. Remember going to Old Deerfield and someone dressed and all that colonial stuff, teaching us how to make pumpkin cakes with like a mortar and pestle and things like that. [01:04:25] Speaker A: That's nice. Really cool. Hands on. [01:04:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Running into like a Benjamin Franklin reenactor with. When I brought my friend Sierra home for spring break in college. And he stayed in character the whole time, including a few lechy comments. And I just, I love that stuff. I'm a big sucker for it. [01:04:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Time fucking magazine, right? With your fucking hundred best podcasts. Find me another one of those cunts that is talking about the, you know, fucking Hindu end times and then skipping straight to the Tudor wreck of the Mary Rose. Fucking find me another one. [01:05:01] Speaker B: That's right. [01:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. You can't. [01:05:03] Speaker B: Where is our Webby? [01:05:06] Speaker A: I'd turn it down. I would, I would. [01:05:08] Speaker B: Geniuses are never recognized in their time. [01:05:11] Speaker A: Well put. Well put. All right, let's see what else? And then. Yeah, okay. And look. And we didn't record last night because I won't lie, I will be perfectly open with you and with our listeners. Mental health, not great. [01:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah. You're having a touch of the. These past sads. Touch of the overwhelms. [01:05:31] Speaker A: It's. It's. I've got a tendency to properly hyper fixate on a thing I have to do and be completely locked up and unable to execute it. You know this, right? Yes, but it's. It kind of. It gets to a point where everything takes on that role. Like, I was driving back. We were driving back from our trip on Sunday, and all I could think of was. And then all of Monday I was. I was like driving around for work, right? And it was just almost throbbing in my head, which I gave a joke, and. And I just couldn't do it. And I'm having the same issue when it comes to, you know, I've got four episodes of the Institute stacked up. I got four episodes of Rick and Morty ready to go. I got books piling up, I got games to play, and I can't fucking do anything. [01:06:26] Speaker B: Right. [01:06:26] Speaker A: Stuff I know I enjoy stuff I know I get lots out of stuff I know that fulfills me hobbies, you know, interests. And I can't seem to fucking do anything. [01:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:38] Speaker A: And it is a source of some frustration. [01:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No, I know what you mean. Sorry, what were you gonna say? [01:06:51] Speaker A: No, nothing. Nothing at all. I'm just. Look, because we're all friends, aren't we? [01:06:54] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. You know, you know, sometimes you gotta know, sometimes it's like we don't do it because, you know, a thing came up and sometimes it's just the brain won't allow it. [01:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And I guess I want to say to you publicly that it can't be easy having me as a co host, because I know it. Well, look, if. If I were you and I had to deal with me, I would. I would get sick of me. Right. I think even if you do, you don't show it. So thanks for not showing it. [01:07:29] Speaker B: This is the thing, though, I think is wonderful about this show and this journey and our friendship and all of that stuff is that we have kind of fallen into this understanding of one another that makes it so that, like, this stuff used to stress me out, you know, be like, I know, fuck sake. But often it was like, kind of the root of it was more like communication issues and. And expectation issues, especially around, like, I tend to fixate on, you know, oh, we are providing something for people. What if they don't get the thing that they're expecting at the time that they expect it and things like that. And kind of over the course of this time, figuring out, like, people aren't that, you know, crazy about that shit. Like, you know, they're. They're fine. It's not that deep. And then kind of figuring out that, like, as long as you communicate something with me. [01:08:22] Speaker A: Yes. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Which I am fine. Which was, you know, at our early stages, you remember, you would like, just like, stop talking and I just wouldn't hear from you for like three days and be like, what, what happened? [01:08:35] Speaker A: I do. I remember those days and not fondly. And. And it was, it was a similar kind of affair. I would just be like, right, yeah. [01:08:42] Speaker B: You were like, fixating and the only thing you could do was to just sever. [01:08:46] Speaker A: Lock up from it. [01:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah, completely lock up. And then it was like, once figured out, like, it's. You can just tell me you're locked up and that's fine. Work around it. And, you know, I think that that's just a wonderful thing about, you know, the growth of this podcast, but mostly the growth. Growth of our friendship through this podcast as well. Yeah. [01:09:04] Speaker A: We just could not agree more. [01:09:05] Speaker B: We just understand each other now. [01:09:07] Speaker A: Yes. [01:09:08] Speaker B: Nice thing. [01:09:09] Speaker A: Good. So that's that raised now just super quickly. Super quickly. [01:09:14] Speaker B: Okay. [01:09:16] Speaker A: Something I've noticed over the last few, I think, months, maybe this year. Capitalism is fucking awful. Right? [01:09:25] Speaker B: True. Yeah. [01:09:26] Speaker A: Right. And on plenty of occasions, I've spoken about how tiring it is to bear witness to companies trying every fucking possible new angle to wring more from us. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Yep. [01:09:48] Speaker A: It's tiring. And it. I'm often, you know, there's. There's the kind of the boring ways of making things smaller and making things more expensive. All right, Blah, blah, blah. Right. [01:09:59] Speaker B: How transparent. [01:10:01] Speaker A: Exactly. This I've noticed a new way. I've noticed thing that companies are doing. [01:10:09] Speaker B: All right, hit me. [01:10:09] Speaker A: And I. And I don't know if it's happening with you or not, or if you've noticed it. And dear listener, maybe you've noticed it too. This isn't a term I've heard coined anywhere else. Right. So if I'm the first to coin this, I'm having it. I'm thinking of it as Care Washing. [01:10:26] Speaker B: Care washing. Okay. [01:10:28] Speaker A: Care washing. There's a brand of chocolate over here called Dairy Milk. [01:10:32] Speaker B: Right, yeah, I've heard of it. [01:10:34] Speaker A: There you go. Their most recent ad campaign. An ad for chocolate. Right. An advertisement for chocolate. And the premise of the ad campaign is a. A lady giving a bar of chocolate to her dad and her dad has Alzheimer's. Okay, Right. And. And her dad receives this chocolate and wistfully talks about how. Ah, yes, I remember my daughter used to give me this. [01:11:06] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Dairy Milk cured Alzheimer's. [01:11:09] Speaker A: I'm fucking. No, no, I'm serious. And. And you would hear this guy speaking about his memories of his family who are perfectly alive and with him, you know, and it would make us so happy to share this. Chocolate and Dairy Milk supports the Alzheimer's Society. It's an ad for chocolate which is pulling, cynically and unmaskedly pulling on strings to. To sell chocolate. [01:11:41] Speaker B: Right? [01:11:41] Speaker A: And I hate it. And I hate the fact that I've seen so many media outlets reporting on this advert as being touching. Unreal. [01:11:52] Speaker B: Oh, God. [01:11:55] Speaker A: Bringing. Bringing this into the conversation, you know, And I just want to slap so many people because this. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Bringing their tax break into the conversation is what they're doing. [01:12:09] Speaker A: And it. It isn't just. It isn't just Dairy Milk. There is a Internet provider currently in the uk, a mobile services provider, who. A big ad campaign right now is all about how you've got to use your parental controls and protect your children. Haven't you, from the evils of the Internet? Come in to see us and we'll tell you all about it and we'll sell you a product that's geared specifically towards. Towards keeping the kids safe. Care Washing. Using actual, real concerns that real fucking people have about the ills of society and about potential harm coming to their families as a means of driving traffic and sales and conversions. [01:12:56] Speaker B: I mean, that really is like the most cynical form of capitalism, right? The idea that, like, yeah, yeah, the world is burning, everything's terrible and we can sell you something for that, but. [01:13:08] Speaker A: We'Re the company that cares about that. A chocolate bar using Alzheimer's as a advertising ploy, which is what it is. Yeah, I hate it. [01:13:20] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:13:21] Speaker A: I hate it. But this is what we do. This is what we do, friends. We're Here on the ground. We're here at grassroots looking at this stuff, talking about it, making you aware of it. Maybe now you'll see it too. [01:13:35] Speaker B: It reminds me of, like, whenever there's like a huge sort of national tragedy or something like that, like 911 and. And things of that n. Right afterwards. [01:13:51] Speaker A: Norm MacDonald has ruined 911 for me. He is. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Oh, no, absolutely. Every time somebody mentions ruining 9 11. [01:14:00] Speaker A: I see Norm McDonald. Yeah. 911 and. And I'm gone. I'm gone. [01:14:07] Speaker B: Well, 911 after that, terrible tragedy. Terrible tragedy. But you, like the super bowl ads and things like that became, like, about, like, togetherness and, you know, all these kind of like, very, like, feel good, like, instructive stuff, you know, like, this is how we should now respond as Americans and. And whatnot. And it's like Budweiser, like. Okay. You know, I think that's like the most common kind of version of that that I see here is where the commercial almost even address the item that they're trying to sell. It's just like, here's like a sob story. Here's like a cricket message. A thing. Yeah, exactly. And then brought to you by this. Oh, okay. They must really care. Thanks. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I think that's one to keep an eye on. [01:15:09] Speaker B: Maybe I'll be looking out. [01:15:10] Speaker A: Circle back to that. [01:15:11] Speaker B: Circle back. Yeah, yeah. But for now, let's. Let's finish out by talking about the flims we have seen. [01:15:21] Speaker A: We'll talk about the flames super quickly and very excitingly. [01:15:27] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:15:29] Speaker A: Very exciting. This. Don't know if it landed, if it caught or if you, you know, appeared on your radar. But they've. There's been a. There's been San Diego this week. Yeah. Comic Con. [01:15:39] Speaker B: Yes. [01:15:41] Speaker A: And we've got a trailer for the Jason Universe cider advert. [01:15:47] Speaker B: I did see that that happened, but I hadn't looked at it. Did you watch it? [01:15:51] Speaker A: I did. Right. [01:15:52] Speaker B: Okay, tell us about it. What'd you see? Reports, please. [01:15:55] Speaker A: I'll tell you the first thing that I've noticed, and I can't believe I didn't catch on to this sooner, man. [01:16:00] Speaker B: Okay. [01:16:01] Speaker A: They can't even call it Friday the 13th. You know what I mean? That's why they're calling it Jason Universe. Yeah. They can't even call it Friday the 13th. [01:16:11] Speaker B: So it really is like a fan franchise. [01:16:15] Speaker A: Right? It. Exactly this. Exactly this. And even in the trailer. Even in the trailer at something like, you know, eight, nine seconds in, there's a character holding a cider Bottle. Right. [01:16:29] Speaker B: Oh, man. [01:16:30] Speaker A: Everyone. Everyone is conspicuously eating apples. [01:16:35] Speaker B: Oh. I was like, why apples? Right. Cider. Okay. [01:16:37] Speaker A: Because cider, you see. [01:16:39] Speaker B: Stop. They're not. Are you making this up? Is this really in it? [01:16:42] Speaker A: Try me. Go and watch it. It's called Sweet Revenge. [01:16:45] Speaker B: No, it's not. Stop. [01:16:47] Speaker A: It is. It is. Jason Universe, Sweet Revenge. [01:16:51] Speaker B: They're eating apple. [01:16:54] Speaker A: There are apples every way. [01:16:56] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:16:58] Speaker A: Right. And literally in the first couple of shots of the trailer, we've got a character holding a cider bottle. [01:17:03] Speaker B: Oh, wow. That's worse than I imagined. [01:17:07] Speaker A: It looks absolutely woeful. The. The. They can't use. Or any of the Familiar Friday the 13th iconography. They can't use the name. They've changed the mask to avoid. [01:17:20] Speaker B: What's the mask? Is it like still. [01:17:22] Speaker A: It's a hockey mask, but, you know, they've subtly altered it. The kind of chevrons on it are blue. The whole pattern is different. The pattern of the holes on the mask is different. It's recognizably Jason, obviously. [01:17:35] Speaker B: Sure. [01:17:36] Speaker A: But it's kind of Jason, you know, Joseph. Yeah. It looks like a fan film. But what is baffling me is that all of the horror press. Fangoria. Fucking bloody disgusting. All of the names. All of the horror names are billing this Jason Voorhees Returns a new Sweet Revenge trailer. No one is. It seems like nobody is fucking talking about the fact that it's a fucking advert for cider. Nobody is talking about this. [01:18:08] Speaker B: Nobody's addressing the elephant in the room here. Yeah. We'll be the ones interesting. All graves will be the ones to say it. It's an advertisement, people. [01:18:18] Speaker A: Come on the. That. There was a panel. There was a panel at San Diego, and they did strongly suggest that there's a new actual movie coming, like, soon. But this. This ain't it. Like, this really isn't it. [01:18:38] Speaker B: And it's an activation mark. [01:18:42] Speaker A: That's what I'm searching for. It is an activation in the Jason universe family of brands. [01:18:49] Speaker B: Oh, man. It's so bad. [01:18:51] Speaker A: I encourage you to check it out. I haven't posted. [01:18:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:54] Speaker A: Because I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. But I do encourage you in private to have a look, maybe through a. [01:18:59] Speaker B: VPN, the YouTube Yew Tube, where you can watch things without giving it monetization. [01:19:07] Speaker A: Yes. [01:19:09] Speaker B: Amazing. [01:19:10] Speaker A: All right, well, in actual movies, we saw a good one, didn't we? [01:19:14] Speaker B: We did. Yes, we did. So I was thinking, because we've watched two and we watched one yesterday, and I was like, you gave it a 1.5. What do you mean? But yes, we did watch a good one before that. Yes, we watched Dangerous Animals. Finally, it's. [01:19:29] Speaker A: Hey, listen, you're eating well with your boat discussions this week, aren't you? [01:19:33] Speaker B: It's true. It's a great week to be me. This is making up for the past several weeks of this term by just feeding me some nice junk food right here. [01:19:46] Speaker A: I would not refer to this as a piece of junk food, though. I don't believe Dangerous Animals is a piece of junk food. [01:19:50] Speaker B: I mean, junk food for me, you know, like you're giving me. I'm eating good, you know. [01:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah. What we have. If this has passed your attention, if this is flown by you, Dangerous Animals is a grimy and sweaty and hot and salty and tense and pleasingly red and bloody piece of Oz. Core boat core shark core slasher. [01:20:22] Speaker B: Just check those boxes. Check. [01:20:25] Speaker A: Chickity, tick, tick, tick. Great to see. I quite like Jai Courtney. [01:20:31] Speaker B: Me too. Big time. [01:20:32] Speaker A: What? [01:20:32] Speaker B: Really? He's one of those people too. Is that like, you know, I've always kind of liked him and then like the older he gets to me, the hotter he gets. Like, okay, get a little. A little more bulk on him and all that. And I'm like, yeah, serial killer. He's hefty and I like it. Yeah. [01:20:48] Speaker A: What we have here is the tale of a. An Australian sea man who runs shark cage experiences. But he's a murderer. And that's enough said. We'll say no more. [01:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that pretty much seems. [01:21:03] Speaker A: Dangerous Animals. You really ought to. It's ridiculous. [01:21:06] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, absolutely. As it should be. Yeah. [01:21:09] Speaker A: Yes. But, but, but you know, you've got a. You've got a. A heroine who's phenomenal, super easy to root for, somebody you can really get behind, acts in a really human way, up to a point, reacts intelligently to situations of peril. You've got a Gribbly in Jai Courtney who is charismatic as Charismatic. [01:21:38] Speaker B: There's a serial killer dance, which is always a thing I love. [01:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Really nice. [01:21:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:42] Speaker A: Oh, what are some other ones that you love then? [01:21:45] Speaker B: I mean, there's like a lot. I was posting them on our tick tock for the short period of time that I was using. TikTok. [01:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:53] Speaker B: You know, there's various ones in movies like Slumber Party Massacre two has one. There's Silence of the Lambs famously has one. [01:22:02] Speaker A: The only one that comes to my mind. [01:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah, there's like, lots of movies have like moments of. Or your villain in general, like say, Sam Rockwell and in Charlie's Angels, there's Joker. Yeah. The part where Joker busts in. Oh, I love it. I'm such a sucker for that as a trope. And there's one of those in here. [01:22:24] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a banger. Yeah. Really, really great soundtracks and really good kills. And again, gore. [01:22:32] Speaker B: And. I mean, I had to close my eyes and ears at one point. Yeah. This is a lot. [01:22:40] Speaker A: I. If it's one that's. That's avoided your attention by now, I heartily recommend giving it a go. I'm not gonna say anything about anything else, really, because I. I went into it completely cold. I knew nothing of this. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Me neither. [01:22:51] Speaker A: I didn't even even know that it was. It was boat core. I didn't know. Literally not a thing about it. I hadn't seen a trailer. I hadn't read a review. And it rewards that. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Really a really nice surprise, you know. [01:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Watch Dangerous Animals gets the Jack of All Graves seal of approval. [01:23:09] Speaker A: Yes, it does. Did I give it three and a half? [01:23:12] Speaker B: I think so. Yeah. I gave it four, obviously. And if I watch it again, it'll probably go up realistically. I know. [01:23:18] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure I spoke about this last week, but this is the second occasion now where a few days have passed between me and a movie and I've wanted to go back and change my rating, and I don't feel right doing it. [01:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah. You even had, like, a whole, like, blue sky discourse about this. Trying to, like, I had a conversation. Figure out if you could justify it. Yeah. [01:23:37] Speaker A: I've gone from rating in the middle of the movie itself. [01:23:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:42] Speaker A: To wondering if I can leave it a few days and then rate because I want to go back and take half a star of Superman. [01:23:48] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [01:23:50] Speaker A: I really do. I've had a little think about it, and it isn't the. [01:23:55] Speaker B: You were really struggling with that one last week. [01:23:57] Speaker A: I was struggling to give it three stars. And I can't. I can't. I think on. On subsequent viewings, that's going to go down halfway. Star really wasn't into it. [01:24:06] Speaker B: Well, relatedly, I feel like I chose poorly because most people have enjoyed Superman at least as. As a ride. But I was less interested in that and wanted to go see the Fantastic Four first steps because I wasn't going to see two comic book superhero movies in one week. That just simply was not going to happen. So I picked Fantastic Four. And I think I chose poorly between the two of those because from what I understand, whatever you think of Superman, it's gonna have that g. The Humor the, you know, that characters, you know, that you kind of understand and learn to love and things like that that you get in a James Gunn movie, that you do not get in the Fantastic Four, which for some reason, when I walked in, I had my Pee Timer app out, you know, and it shows you how long the movie is before you get in. [01:25:02] Speaker A: Tell me something about the pe. How quickly after release does a film go up on the P Timer app? [01:25:08] Speaker B: Usually immediately. I think that often because this thing has been around so long, at this point, the studios invite them to the pre screenings beforehand. [01:25:19] Speaker A: It's officially sanctioned. [01:25:20] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So it's pretty much everything is always up there. Because I saw Fantastic4 at 11am on Friday. So it was already. Already up on there. But so I looked at it and I was like, oh, wow, the movie's only an hour and 50 minutes. Like, that's unusual for a Marvel movie, which I was, like, excited about. And then when the movie was over, I was like, why was that only an hour and 50 minutes? Because for some reason they decide to just jump the fuck in and not explain anything to you. This entire movie. No character building, no world building, no nothing. It's just go, go, go this whole time. And I will. [01:26:03] Speaker A: To me, that's a recommendation. Because what I. Surely we've evolved past origin stories. Surely we don't need to. [01:26:10] Speaker B: Not with the Fantastic Four. I don't know anything about the Fantastic Four. [01:26:15] Speaker A: Like Zero, Hot Boy, Rock man and Invisible Woman. [01:26:20] Speaker B: I know that because I just watched it the other day. But if you had asked me the week before this what those people do, I could not have told you. [01:26:31] Speaker A: Like three films already. [01:26:33] Speaker B: Right? But famously ones that did poorly. Right? And the. I did not see, I don't think any of the, like, second ones, like the ones from like 10 years ago or whatever. The last Fantastic Four, as I saw were 20 years ago. [01:26:50] Speaker A: Yeah, fair enough. Like, great point. [01:26:52] Speaker B: So, you know, they. They do. They basically yada yada the origin and like, that would be fine. Like, sure. I don't need to like, see them get their powers or whatever. But it's yada yada ing everything else that's the problem. Like, one of. I think this is the thing that I think is emblematic of it. Right. Just one small point that I think explains my problem with the whole movie, which, you know, the movie very much is a tell, not show movie. It doesn't show you anything. They just give you a line of dialogue to explain, which I hate, as you know, it's the worst. [01:27:24] Speaker A: And Listen super briefly, jumping back to dangerous animals. Some fantastic examples of how you should film and display in a. In a movie. Conversations via text message. That's how you fucking do it. And I think. I think I'm gonna go back and add a half a star just for that. [01:27:45] Speaker B: Which by the way, you see him. [01:27:47] Speaker A: Type on the phone. The end. [01:27:48] Speaker B: I've been watching Dexter and thinking about you because they always show the phone and I can never read what the fuck it says. And so I keep on having to like back up and walk up to the screen and look at the phone. Like, fuck, just put it on the screen so I can read it. But anyway, here's my emblematic moment of the Fantastic Four is or like theme is that apparently Johnny Storm is like a womanizer. I don't know if this is canon to all of them or if this is just try a thing they're trying to make happen, but this movie has like two or three lines and well, so he becomes like obsessed with the Silver Surfer and it kind of becomes a running theme that like. It's because he's obsessed with women, right? You never. [01:28:36] Speaker A: He's like a good natured sleaze, right? [01:28:38] Speaker B: Apparently. That's what they keep telling me. Right? I see you never see Johnny with a human woman other than his sister. The entirety of the film. If a character's main characteristic is their obsession with women, right? Let's see him flirt with some ladies walking by, you know, let's see him like, listen, where. [01:29:04] Speaker A: Where do we meet Dr. Peter Venkman when he's sleazing on a coed. [01:29:08] Speaker B: Right? Exactly. Yeah. That's the kind of thing, just something like that. To set it up. This just gives us several lines where people talk about how into women he is, but we literally don't see him with another woman in this movie. So that's to me like, that just broadly speaks to what's wrong with this movie. Is that the whole thing? They just keep telling you things, but okay, I would like to see them at some point. This movie should have been two hours and 20 minutes. And it's an hour and 50. [01:29:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a shame. And it's not a conversation really that I want to have, but it is a shame. Endgame was on TV on the weekend, right? It was on. Or was it Infinity War? It was on BBC1 and just watching that and real and just. It's still peak. It's still a fucking incredibly good film. [01:30:03] Speaker B: Started watching Infinity War because Infinity is the war is the one that starts with Jeremy Renner. Right. And his family disappears. [01:30:12] Speaker A: Nope, that's end game. [01:30:13] Speaker B: That's Endgame. [01:30:14] Speaker A: Yes. Infinity War is. [01:30:16] Speaker B: Oh yeah. And the snap happens. So I watched the beginning of Endgame and that happened. And I like immediately just like, as it started, started crying. Just like, like Infinity War was so devastating. It's like watching the beginning of Endgame just immediately brought me to tears thinking about how emotionally destroyed I was by Infinity War. [01:30:40] Speaker A: And to anyone who would listen, I would always bang on about how fucking great the MCU was. I was just that guy who could not fucking shout about how staggering an achievement it was. And it's, it's. Yeah, it's gone. That shine, that fucking pull, it just is not there anymore. [01:30:57] Speaker B: It's a bummer because Thunderbolts was so good. I feel like with Fantastic Four, my like, you know, thing was it has Infinity War level stakes when it should have thunderbolts level stakes. [01:31:13] Speaker A: Well put, well put. [01:31:15] Speaker B: I am not afraid this guy is going to destroy the world in the first Fantastic Four movie. [01:31:20] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. You know, fine is the word I've heard it used to describe us. [01:31:25] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [01:31:26] Speaker A: Just it's fine. You know, there are moments, there are moments of excellence. Excellence in that saga now in that story. But the entire piece is. It's just fine, isn't it? [01:31:37] Speaker B: It's there background noise. [01:31:40] Speaker A: Speaking of which. Hell of a summer. [01:31:44] Speaker B: Hell of a summer. I'm fascinated by this movie and I think that that covers a multitude of sins. Like it's not good, don't get me wrong, it just doesn't get the 1.5 you gave it from me because I'm fascinated by two like 20 year old kids making sort of a throwback slasher camp slasher that centers around a character who's a burnout who is six years older than they are. So they're trying to write like a older perspective. They're writing a lot of older perspectives in here as 20 year olds. And I find that so interesting. Just like looking at a 20 year old, looking at the world is so interesting to me. [01:32:36] Speaker A: Again, I came to it with no knowledge, no prior intel at all. And the, the only, the single, solitary interesting thing about this film is that it was written by kids. That's the only thing. And it comes across because it's. [01:32:50] Speaker B: It does, yeah. [01:32:52] Speaker A: It's basic. It's. It's in the same way not as, not to as heinous a degree, but in the same way as Fear Street. The last Fear street that is, is a movie which is kind of what the creators of it think a horror movie should be. They've like seen a horror film and they've spoken to people who like horror films and maybe they've even, you know, enjoyed a few of the old ones perhaps. So they've made something that kind of superficially looks and feels like one. That's what, that's what Helluva Summer is. They've seen. Obviously Finn has seen Scream, right? Yes, obviously he's seen, you know, yeah. [01:33:32] Speaker B: Probably a fair amount of like 80s slashers, 90s slashers and things like that. Like, it certainly is something made by kids who enjoy watching this stuff, but it also doesn't. [01:33:43] Speaker A: But only from a certain point onwards, like Happy Death Day. It's from kind of there onwards that this is drawing from. Not. [01:33:52] Speaker B: I think it's trying to draw from older stuff. But I think the thing is it doesn't have perspective is the issue. Because they're not commenting on anything. They don't have experiences that they're commenting on or anything like that. [01:34:06] Speaker A: It's a copy of a copy. It draws from films that drew from films. It isn't going back to, to. To the. It isn't taking influence from the source. It's secondary and tertiary influenced horror. It's. It's a kind of a trickle down of a trickle down of horror which. What a horror might look like. But you. It's been through the Xerox so many times that it doesn't. It's lost the essence. [01:34:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just think. But again, that's what makes it interesting to me is that like the sense of making something at a point at which you have so little experience of the world. Because, you know, even dumb slashers and stuff like that are saying something, right. They have some comment that they're trying to make about things and this is so much just kind of like copies of other horror movies that it's like, it's got the beats, but there's no like soul to it necessarily. [01:34:59] Speaker A: There's nothing at all below the surface. And maybe that's fine. Maybe that's. I don't know, maybe that's. [01:35:04] Speaker B: And what I'll give it over Fear street is that because it is made by kids, there's an authenticity to it at least. Right. Like the, the jokes that these kids make and even of things like it's that really annoying one with Pete Davidson and they're all in the house and they're trying to figure out who children. Bodies, Bodies. Bodies. Right, like Bodies, Bodies, Bodies is a millennial making fun of gen Z. Right. Like, you know, it doesn't read authentic to what like actual young people talk like or things like that. It's just like someone mocking young people. And this I will say where it kind of picks on like woke things and stuff like that. Like it does it in a way that is from the inside. Right. Like this is. This is more like kids making fun of themselves that I think that bit of authenticity gives it the edge over something like Fear Straight that is made by like a 50 year old British guy. Right. Like. [01:36:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. [01:36:04] Speaker B: It has their voice in it. So I don't know. Hell of a summer is not good. Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending it in that way. I just think it's an interesting. It's like if our college projects, you know, I was a film major. If our college projects had had $1 million behind it, it would still be the dumb college project we made, but just really look really nice. [01:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah, listen, I don't. I don't disagree with the thing you just said, Corey. But. But none of which is an endorsement because it is, it is. It isn't even that it's bad. It's just a kind of a waste of your time. [01:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly. [01:36:37] Speaker A: If you're listening to Jack of All Graves, this ain't what you want to see. [01:36:42] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, that's probably a good way of putting it. Yeah, exactly. It's not. It's not terrible. It's just an absolute waste of 90 minutes. [01:36:51] Speaker A: It's not for you. No, no, no, no, no. [01:36:54] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. A thing I did enjoy this week that I kept seeing on other people's letterboxd and finally was like, I gotta check this out. Was K Pop Demon Hunters. Does this one come across your path yet? [01:37:07] Speaker A: Right, so it's summer holidays over here. School is out. [01:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:11] Speaker A: And Owen and Peter curled up on the sofa together and watched this. [01:37:14] Speaker B: I wondered I was gonna recommend it for them. Did they like it? [01:37:17] Speaker A: They fucking loved it. And Pete was cynical as hell. He was like, oh dad, Owen wants me to watch this. And they. I was trying to work upstairs and the floorboards were reverberating with the soundtrack. [01:37:31] Speaker B: Love that. [01:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:33] Speaker B: It's so good. It's so much fun. I had a blast watching that. It inspired Kyo to go get some like glowy things that we had around the house and do some little dance moves while we were watching it. [01:37:45] Speaker A: Okay. Cute. [01:37:47] Speaker B: It. It's so much fun. It's. It's what it says in the box. I Guess. K Pop Demon Hunters. About a girl group. K Pop girl group. And in the world of this film, there are demons that walk amongst us on Earth and they are slayers of them. But it turns out one of those girls is actually part demon. Her father was a demon and it's starting to emerge that she is one and she's trying to hide it from her. Her bandmates, while they also come up against a boy band K pop group that is made up of demons that they now have to try to vanquish. And it is. It's an absolute delight. It's so much fun. And there's good. There are these, like, creepy demon animals in it that I love so much. I'm like, I need a tattoo of these. They're so good. It's like a pigeon. A pigeon in a hat. And a weird, uncanny cat thing that are just their perfection. Absolutely gorgeous. K Pop Demon Hunters is so much fun. Check it out. [01:38:59] Speaker A: Well, I. I'm more likely to know that you've said that, but I'm still. [01:39:03] Speaker B: Not really, like, like, it's. If you had watched it with your kids, I think you would have had a really good time. I can see why you wouldn't necessarily, like, be like, all right, 10 o'. Clock. [01:39:13] Speaker A: Might as well sit down, crack the old knuckles. [01:39:15] Speaker B: Right? Put on the old K Pop Demon Hunters. Watch it by yourself. [01:39:20] Speaker A: If I've got it. If I can't get to things I actually want to watch. [01:39:24] Speaker B: Right. [01:39:25] Speaker A: The chances of me Demon Hunters is. [01:39:28] Speaker B: Slim, but if their obsession spreads to watching it again. [01:39:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Which Owen has been tagging on my shirt a little bit going, dad, you should watch. [01:39:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. If he wants to watch it with you, you're gonna have a good time. It's really. It's really fun. [01:39:41] Speaker A: All right. Okay. No. Did. No. [01:39:43] Speaker B: Dizz and I watched Megan 2.0 after you. [01:39:48] Speaker A: And you loved it. [01:39:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Last week. Had a blast with that one. I don't know. It was. It's one of those things where it's like, people hate it so much and I just feel like I. It makes me feel like I don't understand other people. Like, it is. It's just fun. It is. This is junk food. This is junk food right here, you know, But. [01:40:11] Speaker A: But it's maybe a tenuous link, but it's. This is a film. Megan 2.0 is a film which has actually seen not just its recent contemporaries that it's liberally borrowing from, but it's also gone to the source. I. I feel it. It's stupid on Purpose. [01:40:32] Speaker B: Well, that's the thing, is it knows what it is. [01:40:35] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. It's. [01:40:36] Speaker B: It's. [01:40:37] Speaker A: It's intentionally dumb because it can be. Because it's got the knowledge to make itself intentionally. Intentionally dumb. [01:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Which I think is like the swerve. Because I think the first one, while it's. It's funny in many parts, is, like, more serious. It's more of a straightforward, like, horror movie. [01:40:51] Speaker A: Oh, look, Megan 2.0 is a pivot. [01:40:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Megan 2.0 is. [01:40:54] Speaker A: Hang on. People liked. People liked the bits in the first one that we didn't really expect them to like instead. [01:41:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So let's just. Yeah, take that swerve. Let's go there. You got Jemaine Clement, which is always wonderful to me. It's directed by the same guy as Housebound, which is about as big an endorsement as I can possibly imagine, because Housebound is fucking classic. It's just a super Fun time. Megan 2.0 is if you're the kind of person who can just like, take in a fun, silly, action AI movie. I mean. [01:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's delightful. I can't remember if I just spoke about this with the kids or if I said this to you last week, but the only direction that I will now accept from the Megan franchise is a different genre each time. [01:41:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:42] Speaker A: Next it's Megan goes on a heist. I want. Next. Megan 4.0 or M3G 4N. [01:41:49] Speaker B: Oh, there we go. Yeah. I want. [01:41:52] Speaker A: Megan falls in love with a boy robot or a girl robot or whatever. Yeah, I wanted. I want. What if this. But Megan. That's what I want. Next. [01:42:00] Speaker B: I'm into that. Yeah. Take the trajectory of Friday the 13th. [01:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:42:07] Speaker B: Why not just put it anywhere? It's fine. Just do it. [01:42:11] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Yep. All cool. Aren't movies fun? [01:42:14] Speaker B: Aren't movies fun? And the one last thing that I will mention that is not of the horror thing, but listen, we're all. We. A good chunk of us watched it. Happy Gilmore 2. Delightful. Absolutely delightful. If you like Happy Gilmore, then there's no reason not to like Happy Gilmore 2 because it's. It's the same movie. Just, you know, change slight details about it. [01:42:39] Speaker A: MJF isn't the only wrestler in it, is he? Are there others? [01:42:42] Speaker B: I think he's the only wrestler in it. There's a lot of golfers. Mjf, I think, is the only wrestler who's in it, and it's adorable to watch him in it as one of Happy's children. [01:42:54] Speaker A: It's very delightful because that's the only angle with that. I have interest towards Happy Gilmore, too. Sure. [01:43:00] Speaker B: Which. He's not like a main character, but he's in it a lot. But. [01:43:03] Speaker A: But what I'm asking is, do you. Does he bring anything? Is he just being MJF in a movie? Or is he, like. [01:43:11] Speaker B: He's not acting like mjf. No, he's like. [01:43:14] Speaker A: So he's supposed to be kind of. [01:43:15] Speaker B: Like an idiot guy, Like a meathead. [01:43:19] Speaker A: He's not doing shtick then. He's doing something. He's fascinating, too. [01:43:23] Speaker B: Yeah. He's playing, like one of Happy's four very dumb, but very, like, sweet sons. Essentially opposite of mjf, really. [01:43:36] Speaker A: What am I trying to say here? Forget Batista. There's a. There's a rich tradition of wrestlers in movies just being their wrestling character in movies. Roddy Piper, for example. [01:43:48] Speaker B: Right. [01:43:48] Speaker A: Yeah, Right. He was just Roddy Piper in Frogtown. And they lived same cena and fucking Hulk Hogan rest in piss. But that's not what MJF is doing. He's not just doing his character. Okay. [01:44:01] Speaker B: No, not at all. Completely unrelated to the Maxwell Jacob Friedman that we're familiar with. And, yeah, he's fun to watch in it, and I think it's really sweet. Like, Adam Sandler went to great lengths to acknowledge. Like, this movie is 30. Like, the original is 30 years old. So there's a good chunk of the cast that are dead now. And he finds ways to sort of honor them in various ways. Even, like Cameron Boyce, who died when he was, like, 19 just a few years ago. He was a Nickelodeon star. So there's a part where there's, like, a TV that shows him on it. Like, in his. In the show that he was on. Like, there's a funny scene that takes place in a graveyard where, like, you know, that has various people on it. Like, there's just all these different ways that he's, like, kind of honoring the old one and whatnot. And it's. Yeah, it's just updated Happy Gilmore for 20, 25 with a few little throwback throwbacks for people who, you know, remember it and updated things for. Like, if you're watching with your kids who've never seen Happy Gilmore so that they understand it, it's a fun time. [01:45:11] Speaker A: Nice. Okay. Good to know. [01:45:14] Speaker B: So that's it. And I still think we managed to go almost two hours, despite our this. [01:45:20] Speaker A: Is our curse attempt. We simply cannot have a short episode of Jackal Graves. We can't do it. [01:45:25] Speaker B: But we can't do it. I don't have a timer because we didn't use garageband this time but it is 6:30 we maybe went like 1:45. [01:45:33] Speaker A: It's that's fine but look what I would say Just like going to the gym it always feels worth it on the other side. It's true. [01:45:40] Speaker B: Here here. And we hope it's the same for you friends. Thanks for your patience waiting for us a little extra time. I will have a joag radio up probably tomorrow. We gotta get a let's play in whenever old Marco here has a minute to do so and of course we've got our whatchamacallit tucker and dale vs evil uh fan cave coming up so if you haven't seen it in a. [01:46:10] Speaker A: Minute pull out slime City Massacre on watch along whenever we can. [01:46:17] Speaker B: For sure we will be doing that. [01:46:19] Speaker A: All right, well look, don't up too badly this week crew but if you do we got you back. All right. [01:46:26] Speaker B: Here, here.