Ep. 240: Martyrs or Murderers?

[00:00:04] Speaker A: All right, Corrigan, Mark again. Lock in, lock in, lock in. Serious business. [00:00:13] Speaker B: All right, locked in. Yep, we're here. We're doing it. [00:00:16] Speaker A: You're a. You're a religious, aren't you? You're somebody with a religious background. Not anymore, but, you know, you've. You've. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Yeah, like, certainly not now, but sure enough. [00:00:26] Speaker A: All right, so no ye. In that case, know ye of Samson. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Yes, of course. [00:00:34] Speaker A: Exactly. This. What? Know ye of Samuson. What do you know of him? [00:00:39] Speaker B: Uh, that he was like. Like a warrior. [00:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Or whatever. And then he wasn't supposed to cut his hair, though. Because his power. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Correct. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Was in his hair. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Correct. [00:00:48] Speaker B: You know, some warning signs that maybe this Bible stuff is a little unhinged. But then, yes, a lady came in. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Choppity chopped his hair off. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Sure did. She sure did. [00:01:01] Speaker B: And he lost all his power. [00:01:03] Speaker A: All true. At least as the book tells it. Ask you this, Let me ask you this. What know ye of Samson's death? What know ye of his final fucking stand? [00:01:16] Speaker B: That I don't remember. This is all these like weird Old Testament stories. Listen, Old Testament. When I was in my Christian university, we had to take Bible classes every year, right. Or like some form of Christian class. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:33] Speaker B: And so every semester you'd have these things that kind of proceeded in a normal line. Now, keeping in mind that I was a weirdo who chose to be Christian and didn't come from a Christian family. So. So most students, like, already, like pretty much had a good. Like they went through Sunday school and all of those kinds of things. So they like, knew the stories. I did not like my, like, like I'd read the Bible and all that kind of stuff, but. And like, I watched my Veggie Tales. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:01] Speaker B: This is kind of my basis. And so I actually flunked Old Testament survey because my teacher, Mr. Gebhard, also also known as. Or was it or he not Gebhard. Gebhard was my geometry teacher, Henry. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Who was also known as Hebcat. Cuz he was weird and thought he was like some cool ska guy. Yeah, he like taught everything, like in a. Well, you already know this. So, like, here's just like some extra details. And I was like. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Did he sit on the corner of the table? Like sit in the corner? [00:02:34] Speaker B: It's like, oh, 100% yes. He was a corner of the desk. He had like the pompadour and like dickies and the whole. And he thought he was so cool. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Probably dead by now. [00:02:45] Speaker B: The Old Testament. He was probably like 38 at the time, like if that. So that guy is. [00:02:53] Speaker A: If his family listening, our condolences. Yes. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you're going to lose in the arms of the angels. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Maybe you're about to lose. [00:03:01] Speaker B: That's to say. That's why when it comes to like these stories, I usually have like a little loose grasp on them because I failed Old Testament survey. [00:03:09] Speaker A: So what if I told you then that as you quite rightly and beautifully point out, Samson's strength came from his fucking. From a covenant made with God. And as long as he had that hair, man, he would be basically a fucking super soldier, right? Super strong. [00:03:25] Speaker B: Right? [00:03:26] Speaker A: But as you quite rightly point out, he was betrayed by Delilah. He was blinded. [00:03:32] Speaker B: You bitch. You such. You whore. [00:03:35] Speaker A: Why? Why? Why? Delilah had to be said. But his end came when captive and shackled by the Philistines, he was dragged out and paraded almost trophy like Corrigan in the temple of Dagon. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Ooh. Hey. Like the movie. [00:04:03] Speaker A: Pretty sick. And with his last words, Samson prayed as follows. [00:04:14] Speaker B: O Lord God, tell me all your thoughts on God. Sorry, go ahead. [00:04:21] Speaker A: Oh Lord God, remember me. I pray thee and strengthen me, I pray thee only this once that I may be avenged of the Philistines. For my two eyes and Samsung. Samsung. Samson braced himself against the pillars of the temple of Dagon and cried to the heavens, let me die with the Philistines. And you know what he did? What he do because some of his hair had grown back and his strength coursed through his fucking veins. He pulled down the pillars of that temple. The temple collapsed upon him, killing thousands of Philistines alongside himself. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Big ass temple. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Well he was. He was strong as fuck. He made a covenant with God. Right? [00:05:15] Speaker B: Sure. I'm just saying there were thousands of Philistines in this temple. It was a big ass temple. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Thousands of Philistines. Let me die with the Philistines. He cried. Brought the temple down on his head, killing his captors alongside himself. Damn interesting, isn't it? [00:05:32] Speaker B: That's spite right there. That's. That's one petty dude, isn't it? [00:05:39] Speaker A: Was that suicide? [00:05:45] Speaker B: Sure. Assisted suicide by God or was it. [00:05:50] Speaker A: A final act of martyrdom? [00:05:57] Speaker B: Almost. [00:05:59] Speaker A: It's interesting. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Well, I mean, did he did it? He did it for himself? [00:06:03] Speaker A: He did. But you know, he. He took out a fuck ton of Philistines at the same time. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Is that good? [00:06:12] Speaker A: I think so. In his eyes? [00:06:14] Speaker B: Well, sure, in his eyes. I mean, I don't know. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Well, you know, Christians have struggled with this. Christians have struggled. Whether was this act of A final act of Vengeance almost in God's name, Right? Because suicide is a sin. Of course. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, you know, I don't know that it says that in there, but. [00:06:41] Speaker A: We'Ll get to it. We'll get to that. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:44] Speaker A: But it. From a certain angle, one could view Samson's Final Stand as a very early, kind of canonical example of a weaponized death. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Sure, yeah, absolutely. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Could you not. [00:07:01] Speaker B: Early kamikaze. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Exactly. This. Hey, why don't we skip forward a couple of millennia? [00:07:09] Speaker B: Well, let's do it. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Why don't we talk about 1944. [00:07:14] Speaker B: All right, why don't we do that? [00:07:15] Speaker A: Why don't we just mention that super briefly if that's the topic that we're fucking talking about here? [00:07:20] Speaker B: Because great about it. [00:07:22] Speaker A: If you were in the Japanese fucking air Force in 1944. [00:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:29] Speaker A: The writing was on the fucking wall, right? [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:34] Speaker A: Defeat imminent. So one, Admiral Takijiro Onishi conceptualized and authorized something called Tokotai Special Attack Units. Invoking Kamikaze. [00:07:56] Speaker B: Nice. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Know ye what the word stand and what the word means, what the word kamikaze actually means. [00:08:01] Speaker B: I know that I. I've read it a million times, but I don't remember off the top of my head. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Divine Wind. [00:08:08] Speaker B: That's right. Yes. That's so hardcore. [00:08:11] Speaker A: Isn't that fucking sick? The Divine Wind. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Kamikaze pilots were often young, very little in the way of training or expertise. Sure, think you know, 20s, late teens, teenage pilots who would write farewell letters to their families, who would drink ceremonial sake, who would tie on a white fucking headband. Hachimaki. [00:08:45] Speaker B: Okay. [00:08:46] Speaker A: And would climb aboard planes laden with bombs, with explosives, and just fucking yeet those fuckers into Allied ships. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:00] Speaker A: To quote one particular squadron leader, Yukio Seki, Japan's future is bleak if left to current leaders. My death will not change the war, but perhaps it will inspire others. Well, perhaps it will. What if I told you that between October 1944 to August 1945, 3, 800 kamikaze pilots died that way? [00:09:33] Speaker B: Jesus Christ. I had no idea it was that prevalent. [00:09:36] Speaker A: That's a incredible number of people and planes. Not all that effective, it would seem. Because of those almost 4,000 pilots, 34 ships got sunk. 34 allied ships were sunk. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Yikes. [00:09:50] Speaker A: Not a great hit rate. [00:09:52] Speaker B: No, not particularly. [00:09:55] Speaker A: But they did manage to see off at least 7,000 allied personnel. [00:10:01] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Well, that's quite a lot. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Inspirational, you might say. [00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm inspired. [00:10:12] Speaker A: But the thing with the kamikaze strategy, I'll call it, for want of a. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Better word, sure, Yeah. I mean, that's what it is. [00:10:20] Speaker A: It changed nothing. [00:10:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Tactically completely fusile, but psychologically fucking devastating. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Mm. [00:10:31] Speaker A: That's the trick here. You're not gonna win a war that way, you know? [00:10:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:38] Speaker A: But holy shit, how do you fight an enemy that is prepared to fucking fly his plane right at your face? [00:10:45] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a degree of fealty that. [00:10:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Yeah. There's not much you can do about if you are on the receiving end of it. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Exactly. This almost like a. All so many fucking elements of. Of the psychological warfare there. Propaganda, sacrifice, myth. Just death as a weapon, for sure. But almost weaponized death as a message, almost. How are you gonna fucking take us down when we're doing all. You know that we're doing that part ourselves. [00:11:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. [00:11:30] Speaker A: So we continue, I mean, to talk about the faith behind this, about the schism almost in faith, about this idea of when is it suicide and when is it okay, you know, something more honorable. Is it all right? When is it all right? [00:11:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:53] Speaker A: To quote Augustine, suicide is a sin. Samson's death was God's command, not suicide. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:12:03] Speaker A: All right. But on the other hand, if you want to flip that, to quote Aquinas, okay, suicide usurps God's authority, but martyrdom is to die at another's hand. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Well, that was what I was thinking, like, when you said martyr, I'm like, it's not martyrdom to bring the house down on yourself at your own hand, by the ways that we learned about it. Because one of the things that is really characteristic of evangelicals in the era that I was one, and I'm certain it's still. Well, I don't know, maybe not so much now. Evangelicalism has gotten very individualistic, even more so than it was before. But in the, like, 80s and 90s, evangelicals became obsessed with martyrdom. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Is that right? [00:12:57] Speaker B: Deeply, yes, extremely. There's a very popular band called DC Talk. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Okay. [00:13:03] Speaker B: And they had a song called Jesus Freak, and they ended up putting out a book called Jesus Freaks, and it detailed, like, martyrs around the world. So people who had been died out of persecution for the Christian faith. My friend Emily worked for an organization called Open Doors usa, and they work around the world with persecuted Christians, which is a real thing. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:28] Speaker B: To be clear, there are places around the world where people are killed for being Christians. Not as many of them as Christians think there are. But when I was in summer camp, I went to a summer camp called Centrifuge. Those were all over the United States. I went to the one in Jeunesse park, which is kind of Yosemite ish area. And we one year did this horribly traumatizing thing. And if you've seen the second season, anyone out there, if you've watched the second season of Shiny Happy People, they talk about this thing, but they called it the 1040 window. So supposedly the like coordinates of where it is the most dangerous to be a Christian is in like between 10 and 40 latitude or something like that. I don't know, I can't really remember. It was 25 years ago. But they had us like basically run and hide all over the camp. And people. Yeah. With fake guns and stuff like that would come up and like find you and ask if you were a Christian and stuff like that. And you're terrified and you're like, do I lie or don't I lie? Or things like that. And then they got up at the end and they like called out the people who had lied. And then, you know, there were people who were martyrs and stuff like that. But throughout that period, like, that was the most important thing you could be, like, Christians were like looking for a reason to go somewhere and die at the hands of someone else. You saw that with like the kid a few years ago who went to that uncontacted tribe. [00:15:05] Speaker A: Sure. [00:15:06] Speaker B: And you know, immediately got ganked, like. But that's what he wanted, you know, like, it's not for him. That's not a tragedy. That's exactly what he wanted to happen. He's spreading the gospel. Best thing that can happen is that you die. But it is important that someone else does it. And the meeker you are when it happens, the better. Right. You don't want to fight back against the people who martyr you. You have to offer yourself as sacrifice, essentially. So bringing a temple down upon yourself by the definitions that a, you know, modern evangelical would understand, I mean, they would certainly bend over backwards to make it that way. But the point is, be meek, be mild, and someone else murders you for Christ. And that is the ultimate fascinating. [00:15:58] Speaker A: So that's, that's where you would say the line is drawn in Christianity. If you're. If your martyrdom air quotes is accompanied by an act of attack, an act of violence, then it's struck off the record, doesn't count. [00:16:10] Speaker B: It's not cool because you want to be like Jesus, right? And Jesus let people crucify him. He could have called upon his disciples to fight them and all of this stuff. But he said, don't do that. Right. You know, he said that These people don't know what they're doing, you know, so you want to be like him and he did not fight. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:31] Speaker B: So that's central to the idea of martyrdom. [00:16:33] Speaker A: Now, if, if that seems, if that seems fuzzy or unclear at all in Christianity, God damn. Does it, does it, does it feel a little muddier to me in Islam? [00:16:51] Speaker B: Right, okay. [00:16:54] Speaker A: In the same fucking book. Right? [00:16:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:57] Speaker A: The Quran, 4:29. Do not kill yourselves, for surely God is merciful. [00:17:05] Speaker B: Mm. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Quran 3:1:69. Do not think of those who are slain in God's cause as dead. They are alive with their Lord. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Mm. [00:17:17] Speaker A: So like a cat with a piece of buttered toast on its back. You know, the paradox of a buttered toast always falls on its front. A cat always lands on its feet. So if you strap some toast to a cat's back and drop it, it will just presumably spiral forever like a perpetual fucking clean energy generating machine. If I kill myself in God's name, surely is that a little loophole there? [00:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I honestly, I mean, again, it's an interpretation thing because I think those, those bits from the Quran you've pulled there are pretty similar to biblical things as well, because they're the same things, they all come from the same place. And it's just about how you interpret that. Because I would read both of those as the same thing. [00:18:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Those are both telling you not to kill yourself. There's no contradiction there. [00:18:14] Speaker A: But if I'm killed, if I die in the name of God, if I. [00:18:20] Speaker B: Die by someone else's hand, not your. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Own, that is not, that is, that is not explicit. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Except that then there's a thing that says don't kill yourself. So then it is explicit, but I've. [00:18:32] Speaker A: Died in God's name at someone else's hand. It's tough, isn't it? Well, look, the point being that the real innovators of weaponized suicide, those who really took it mainstream, it could be said Hamas In Israel, certainly. 138 suicide bombings in 2000-2005. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Sure. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Mostly responsible by Hamas. And the framing of those attacks is always martyrdom, psychological as well as physical warfare. Video messages of farewell statements, video messages being released, mixing, you know, nationalist kind of appeals, Quranic imagery. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:33] Speaker A: In, in. In what appears to me a similar kind of how the. Do we fight this? [00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah. In and on the other side. Right. The Hannibal directive. Like they do the same thing. Israelis do the same thing, essentially. You know, if, if there's any chance that you might die, blow everyone up. That's what they did at the festival. Right. Like blow all of the people up and you know, that's the, that's the best way to do it. Go out with them. Yeah. [00:20:06] Speaker A: And like I said to you on text earlier on, it's. I'm almost glad that we waited a week to talk about this because. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:17] Speaker A: What is it this week? [00:20:20] Speaker B: Oh, September 11th, you know. Sure is. [00:20:26] Speaker A: You fucking know it. In what is the most, I'm gonna say, successful act of a martyrdom of all fucking time? Almost 3,000 dead, 25,000 injured. [00:20:49] Speaker B: Still dying because. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Still dying. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Still 9, 11 diseases, cancers, things like that. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Just completely reshaped politics, travel, launched the whole world. The whole fucking world. Launching a 20 year war that is still, you know, via various proxies and various actors is still playing out. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean I don't think we would have President Trump or Starmer or any of these people if you didn't have 9 11. [00:21:27] Speaker A: Completely agree. I completely agree. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Yeah. You wouldn't have people in their weird flags outside of refugees, hotels, things like that if it weren't for 9 11. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Oh man, have we, did we cover that last time we spoke? [00:21:40] Speaker B: I think so. Yeah, I think we talked about that. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Okay. Because it hasn't gone away. It's worse. It's, it's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's violent. It continues worldwide. Right. From I think Samson the Kamikaze, the Divine Wind from the Middle east out worldwide between 1982 and 2000. Worldwide, around 350 suicide attacks. But from 2000 to 2020, a further 5,000. [00:22:20] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, that's wild. [00:22:23] Speaker A: It's pretty, isn't it? [00:22:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Well, I, I think as you're talking about it too, I think what's interesting about this concept though is like what is the dividing line between like a suicide attack and like any military. [00:22:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Engagement. Right. Because like you're always doing that. You know, at the end of the day, when it comes to a country convincing people that it is worthwhile to go defend it. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:52] Speaker B: You have to convince people that it is worth their life to do it. [00:22:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Simply by joining a military, you have already made a suicide pact with it. You know, you've already decided that I am willing to be martyred for this country. Which is why I think this idea of like, of the idea of martyrdom is so whatever, whether it's religious, like it's Hamas or you know, Al Qaeda or the Kamikazes or Samson or whoever else, it's like the reason why, if you really think about that. That's not what it is, is, because it's, it's military is what it is. You know, and we make a distinction between those things, between giving up your life for a cause and joining a force to murder other people and risking you dying in the process. [00:23:44] Speaker A: Going into it with an element of personal choice and with their eyes wide open is, is. All right, look, that's one thing, right? But I, I, this is the, some awful, awful instances during Iran, Iraq, in the 80s, one of which I, I mentioned when I was talking about Adam Curtis a couple of weeks ago, where there were instances of air quotes, volunteer forces, including, made up of kids as young as 12, right? As young as fucking 12 years old. [00:24:23] Speaker B: Right. They can't volunteer. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah. They ain't volunteering for shit. Sent through minefields to detonate ordnance ahead of the fucking troops. Make fucking Salatomy, fucking cellatomy. [00:24:44] Speaker B: Those kids can be martyrs. But it's, I mean, I think you're really kind of getting at something here, there, because, I mean, ultimately it's about justification. And, you know, there's no such thing as a martyr, right? Like, of course, of course that's not a real thing. They're not going anywhere. They're dead in a field. [00:25:03] Speaker A: You listen to Jack of All Graves, friends, this is all, these are the horrors. We understand. [00:25:09] Speaker B: There's actually no such thing as a martyr. They all just die. Yeah, but I think what you've kind of brought here by comparing it to things, whether it's like a suicide bomber or whatever else here raises that, ultimately, how does a country convince people to go die for it or any kind of army, whether that, if you're talking crusades and things like that, if we're talking about religious armies and stuff like that, they have to convince you that it is worthwhile for you to do this and that the other side is so evil that by killing them, it makes you holy. [00:25:50] Speaker A: What if I told you that these, again, air quotes, volunteers, these kids were in many cases given a metal token, key to paradise to take with them. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Right? Just a reminder, a physical reminder when you do this, like, you surely shall die. [00:26:13] Speaker A: This is the key. [00:26:15] Speaker B: Here's how you're gonna get in. Which is so, like, that's so manipulative and disturbing to consider, you know, genuinely just lying to children, knowing that they're going to die. [00:26:28] Speaker A: And that's where, you know, that kind of, that, that schism of, well, you can't, you can't end your own life, but if you're killed, you know, fighting for For God or whatever. You're cool. I don't see. [00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it comes. I think the book is clear. But just like Christians, again, they're working from pretty much the same text when it comes down to it. Right. And like, you know, with just Christians, Jews, Muslims, whoever else, you know, and secular armies as well, you know, we know they're doing things that are completely counter to what their guiding thing says, but they find a way to interpret that to mean something other than the obvious thing it means. Right. Like that verse. Both of those verses said the same thing. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:27:25] Speaker B: That you said before. Don't kill yourself. And it's, you know, good to die for God. Never once in those does it say, and go, take down as many people with you as possible. Right. Both of those say, you know, don't end yourself by your own hand, but if someone else does it and you're in the name of God accepting of that fate, then you'll be with them or whatever. But in any context in which you want people to think it is right to go kill someone else, you have to convince them. [00:28:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:01] Speaker B: That there is something greater. And like in America, because it's not technically a Christian nation, like, it's the concept of freedom. Right. Like, what does that mean? I don't know. It means I can like go to a sock hop and eat French fries, I guess, or freedom fries. But like, you know, it doesn't mean anything. Like, us going and killing a whole bunch of people in the Middle east, like, does not change a single thing about the life that I live 100%. [00:28:29] Speaker A: And what it boils down to for me is that those, those two statements leave enough wiggle room for you if you have an agenda. [00:28:40] Speaker B: But they don't. That's what's so crazy. They don't leave any. [00:28:45] Speaker A: If, if you're mongering war, you. [00:28:48] Speaker B: You can, you have to add to the text is the thing is you're using omission is what's happening. Is that. And like badly. Right, like badly using omission. Because there is a verse that says, clearly, do not do this. And you are saying that's in like a different chapter somewhere. And thus it's unconnected to this other verse which also doesn't say, walter, calm the fuck down, dude. Which also doesn't say, kill other people. So, like there. It's such a huge, like, basically, in order to believe that you have to insert into the verse a caveat that does not exist. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:38] Speaker B: In either one of the verses. And obviously, we know Christians do That as well, you know, you have to, in order to make this work there have insert stuff into it that doesn't make sense. [00:29:50] Speaker A: There have been plenty of, I guess Islamic scholars who have done, who have attempted to do just that, you know, to add little bits in there in the 11th century. And Al Ghazali suicide is forbidden, but self sacrifice may be praiseworthy if it benefits Islam. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Well, and think about like maybe another like Christian. Yeah, another Christian example of this is like, you know, obviously Christians in America love their guns and stuff, stuff like that. So there's a difference between killing and murder is a thing you hear a lot. Sure, you can kill people, yeah, you can kill people, but you can't murder people. So there are a million justifications for killing people, including them being on your front lawn when you don't want them to be. Right. That is perfectly fine because that's not murder, you know, it's protection and things like that. The Bible never says there's a difference between killing and murder. That is an added thing that Christians have come up with to defend the idea that they are doing something that is somehow God would smile upon. Which again if you think about Jesus, doesn't make a lot of sense. You know, if you think about the Old Testament, you can justify all of this shit because God was killing people left and right and telling people to do it. But you know, Jesus began a new covenant and we're not supposed to act like that anymore. And, but even that is at no. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Point explicitly stated in the Bible. Is it like right, the, the, the New Covenant piece, right. Ignore the last very. [00:31:27] Speaker B: Oh, it is very much new stated. Yes. Where Jesus gives this whole spiel about you've heard this said and it's all these things from the Bible. And then he says, but I say to you so, so like for example, you have heard it said an eye for an eye. But I say to you, if someone slaps you on your other, on one cheek, you offer them your other cheek to be slapped. Right. So he explicitly lists that all of those things that you learned from the Old Testament do not apply now that he has sacrificed himself for us. Like that's done. We do not do those things anymore. So very, very explicitly put in the Bible that once Jesus came along, you do not do the revenge thing anymore. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Surely that isn't the kind of the PR move of an all knowing God, right? If, if, if, if you're responsible for making it all could why not just not have that? Why not just not have the sequel? [00:32:33] Speaker B: You could ask that About a lot of things. Couldn't you? [00:32:35] Speaker A: As we have, as we have plenty of times. [00:32:37] Speaker B: But I mean, as we often do. Yes. You know, but I think it always circles back right to the fall. That's what things come down to. God created us one way. Everything was perfect, all that, you know, eight of the. The tree there was a downfall and everything that happens after that is a little bit out of his hands. It's us choosing to everything up in these ways. Right. Floods it to try to get rid of the people who it up in the first place. You know, things come back, things are still bad. So he, you know, orchestrates wars, he orchestrates murders, things like that, you know. And then when Jesus comes, that's supposed to be the end of that, right. Like he was foretold, he's going to come along and he's going to, you know, form this new covenant with us. And from that point on we will no longer have to like make all of these sacrifices because there has been the one ultimate blood atonement for everything. And that should change the world, right? That should change the way we interact with, with everything. And if Christians were sort of following that, that would put an end to all of the bloodlust and all of the revenge and things like that. Because the book clearly states we don't do that anymore. [00:33:56] Speaker A: It just. It really makes me scratch my bald head that, that again, you know, with a straight face, you know, completely without any self awareness, one could represent that as being the definitive absolute written word of a God who is totally in control of his shit. It's incredible. It's risible to me is what it is. [00:34:26] Speaker B: When you have the fall as an excuse. It takes away all of that issue because he could control things, but he actively chooses not to. And to let us do that as. And to choose him out of love for him. You know, that covers all of that stuff. Like yes, he is all powerful, but he actively chooses not to exert that power so that we. It means more for us to choose him and thus everything can, you know. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I get wherever I get the angle. But when you're. [00:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:35:01] Speaker A: You're not in it, it seems fucking right. [00:35:04] Speaker B: I was like, what? That's, that's insane. Why doesn't he just fix it? [00:35:07] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:35:08] Speaker B: But you know, to all of these points, I think, you know, I was always of the more pacifistic nature as a Christian, right. I leaned more towards like Mennonites and things like that that you know, had a strong, not just pacifism but a. They Refused to be, like, a part of government structures. They don't vote, they don't serve on juries, things like that. You know, they basically try to stay out of, like, the world, you know, in that way. And like, not the world, but like anything patriotic because. [00:35:47] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, sure. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Borders aren't real. We have the one God that rules over everybody. And, you know, when it comes down to it, that means that you need to be good to everyone. Right. And you. You don't sort of sign on for these arbitrary walls that you put up between us that cause us to then think that it is. Somehow makes me a martyr to go and murder someone else's kid on the other side of the world or whatever. Right. Like, that was the kind of Christianity that I subscribed to when I was one. And of course, there's like, that's just the thing about the book. And with Islam, I assume very similar. That's why there's multiple kinds of Islam. And, you know, why. I know Jews who look at Judaism one way and look at it and others who look at it differently. I live outside of New York, so I see Orthodox Jews all the time, as opposed to the ones that I, you know, went to school with and things like that, who were not religious Jews. They were, you know, ethnically Jewish. And most of them don't even believe in God, let alone practice all of these other things. But when it comes to, like, warfare and things like that, it's just. It's a religious version of the secular things we learn about freedom. And these are not real. The books don't tell us. The books don't have these caveats carved out of them. Yeah, we've just made them and indoctrinated people into them to manufacture consent. [00:37:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And just to kind of return to. And wrap up topic, even, it continues to almost entertain me how similar the foundations of the various faiths that we chat shit about seem to be extremely. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Yes, right. I mean, very much so. [00:37:49] Speaker A: As. As you rightly said, early Christianity, martyrdom is. Is cool as long as it's imposed on you by persecutors and not chosen for yourself. The divine wind that we spoke of, you know, the death for your emperor, the death for your nation is your supreme duty. You know what I mean? It's a sacred thing to do. If you're called upon to die, all right, that's fine, but only if it's for the higher power. Only if it's for your God or your emperor. Wild shit. [00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:27] Speaker A: And, you know, even though Islam is. Is fucking so clear in its condemnation of suicide. If it's for your God, if you die in the path of smiting your foes, if you die in the path of Allah, then you're fine. You're alive with the Lord and all is well. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:50] Speaker A: Even though the fucking. I don't know, man. Even though the. The. The books are different and the faith is different and the region of the fucking rock we live on is different. [00:39:00] Speaker B: People are the same. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Yes, please do. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:39:11] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:39:15] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex cannibal recently. [00:39:18] Speaker B: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking. I'm gonna leg it. [00:39:28] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:39:30] Speaker A: I think you feel great about it. Something I'm enjoying lately. And this is a rich new seam of entertainment that I've discovered and that I've started mining for myself. And my kids seem to be enjoying it as well also. Right. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Okay. [00:39:48] Speaker A: My kids are enjoying me telling them stories about dumb shit I've done. There have been. [00:39:57] Speaker B: They share that with me and our audience. [00:40:00] Speaker A: There have been plenty. There have been plenty of real proper, kind of belly laughs, squirting tears out their eyes, just hilarity at some of the fucking. When I look back on it, absolute idiotic shit that I've done. And just for example. Right. And I told my kids about this one literally earlier tonight, it occurred to me while I was at the gym, out of nowhere for some reason. So I think we must be in the mid to late noughties here. Right? [00:40:28] Speaker B: Okay. That's the 2000s for Americans. [00:40:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:32] Speaker B: And every time someone says that, I think they're saying the 90s. And then I have to, like, recalibrate. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Maybe late 90s, maybe 2008. Nine. Possibly. I could find out. [00:40:41] Speaker B: And. [00:40:43] Speaker A: The. The. The. The kind of. The metamorphosis of the Internet was just beginning into being like three apps, Right? [00:40:53] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:40:54] Speaker A: Internet of old was on its way out. Facebook was new and fun and exciting. [00:40:59] Speaker B: Right, Right, Yeah. [00:41:01] Speaker A: Poke someone and things like that. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:04] Speaker A: And a colleague that I had, and I still know him, he's a good lad. I get a call off him out of the blue, Right. One evening. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:16] Speaker A: And it wasn't the kind of colleague relationship that you'd pick up the phone and chat to him like outside of work. So he's ringing me and I'm like, oh, fucking hell, this guy's ringing me. Rings out goes, Mark, do me a favor. Like, all right, go on, do me a favor. I want. Will he go on my Facebook and pretend I'm dead? [00:41:35] Speaker B: No, he knew exactly who to call for that. [00:41:42] Speaker A: He knew the number to dial. I was like, all right, no worries. Why? J. What the. Oh, maybe. Why? What the. And he just some about his ex. Oh, I just want to upset my ex girlfriend or something like that. Right. [00:41:57] Speaker B: Early social media was wide, bro, completely. [00:41:59] Speaker A: So I obviously I put some thought into this and I wordsmith it and I post on his wall. Oh God, just hear the news. And I say something like, I, I only hope you found the peace in death that you never could in life. Right? [00:42:15] Speaker B: Oh my God. [00:42:17] Speaker A: I post that on his. I post that on his Facebook page. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Jesus Christ. [00:42:21] Speaker A: I turn up to work the next morning and our boss is, is stood like in the, in the middle of work with her arm around someone and she's gray faced. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Oh no. [00:42:35] Speaker A: Like there's no blood in her face and her eyes are red and she sees me and Mark, is it. Mark, is it true? And I'd fucking completely forgotten about her by this point. What? Mark, we've just seen about Jamie, Is it true? What? Oh, no, we were just about. Ah. And just walk off and oh my God, so fucking Makala. So stupid. And I was properly in the, in, in the doghouse as they say, for. [00:43:07] Speaker B: The rest of that day. Yeah. What, what about him? [00:43:11] Speaker A: Oh, he's fine. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Well, but like, what was his ex upset? [00:43:17] Speaker A: Like, I don't know. That was the. [00:43:20] Speaker B: You never followed up. Men are the worst. This is the kind of thing that Kia would do too. Like just like something insane like that and then be like, oh no, I never asked. That's somebody else's business. [00:43:30] Speaker A: No, that was the last idea. He turned up for work a few days later and on the next misadventure. [00:43:38] Speaker B: Incredible. Yeah, incredible stuff. [00:43:40] Speaker A: I relayed that one to my boys earlier on and they enjoyed it heartily. [00:43:46] Speaker B: But don't do it, boys. [00:43:47] Speaker A: Oh no. Well, you couldn't emulate because, you know, you'd have to really invest a lot into faking your death on social media these days. So many platforms, but you could give. [00:43:57] Speaker B: People a fright for sure. [00:44:01] Speaker A: So there's that. That's the kind of mood I'm in this week. Friends, good friends, good friends and listeners. And I don't know, some of you maybe Future lovers. Who knows? [00:44:12] Speaker B: Oh, you know, you never know. [00:44:15] Speaker A: Hey, who knows? [00:44:16] Speaker B: The world is. World is open to you. [00:44:18] Speaker A: World is strange. [00:44:19] Speaker B: Mark. Yes, it is my last day in my 30s. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Congratulations. I'll raise a bottle of genocide juice to you. Happy fucking birthday. [00:44:32] Speaker B: Tomorrow, it looks like from the angle you're holding it on. I thought I said my name for a second. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Oh, that would have been something, wouldn't it? [00:44:38] Speaker B: Like, what? [00:44:39] Speaker A: No, no, no. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Last. Last day, last. In my 30s, I'm raising my generic diet cola. Right. [00:44:46] Speaker A: How do you feel back at you. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Tired. [00:44:50] Speaker A: It was. [00:44:51] Speaker B: It was. [00:44:52] Speaker A: How do you feel about it? How do you feel about it? Because a lot of people get hung up, don't they? A lot of people go, yeah, we. [00:44:57] Speaker B: Talked a little bit about it a few weeks ago as I was kind of coming to terms with it. It's just, I think it's a weird little, like, moment, you know? Like, I think this is. I think I mentioned last time. I think, like, decades are always kind of weird for us. As arbitrary as they are. They just feel like something new. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:16] Speaker B: And, you know, obviously there's not going to be a marked difference between me tomorrow and me today, but I. I just feel like I'm like, all right, I'm in my 30s and tomorrow I will be no longer, which is something, you know, something I haven't done before. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:32] Speaker B: And, you know, you were talking. We were discussing this beforehand, and I hear this from a lot of people that, like, a lot of folks feel like the 40s is really where they shined. You know, they came into themselves. They stopped giving a. They like, really kind of, like, got their groove or whatever. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Difficult. Cuz up to a point I really felt that way. [00:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah. You hit some snacks. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Oh, look. Which I'm. Which. That's not the vibe. I don't go into that. You're going to have a great time. You're going to have a great. [00:46:03] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I feel good about it. And like, I. Yeah, last year, you know, I wanted to do like a get in great shape by 40 thing. And I was like, this was the wrong year to do that. Like, you know, dealing with my mom as she moved out and new job and all that kind of thing. So now I'm like, it's my fit at 40 years. So I've, like, given myself goals, which, you know, I love a goal. Like, such a big fan of a goal. So, you know, as soon as tomorrow is over, gonna, like, get my debauchery out of the way, which. What I mean is, my sister and I are gonna go to the zoo, like maybe eat some fried food or something afterwards. [00:46:37] Speaker A: Just briefly. [00:46:38] Speaker B: Which Z Turtle Back Zoo in Orange, New Jersey. [00:46:43] Speaker A: Is that a kind of reptile place? Is it a turtle? [00:46:46] Speaker B: It's all the things they got. They got giraffes, they got wolves. Marco. That's my favorite thing that they got at Turtleback Zoo. And I haven't been since my birthday in 2020, so, you know, I feel like it's time to head back. But I grew up going to this zoo. This is where my grandma would take me when I was a kid. So we're gonna go to the zoo. [00:47:02] Speaker A: That's beautiful. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Probably have a nice meal. [00:47:05] Speaker A: That is beautiful. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And it'll be really, really nice. And then I'm going to get right into fucking fit at 40. Let's fucking go. [00:47:15] Speaker A: I feel that you already are. I mean, you're often at the gym, aren't you? [00:47:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Obviously you're teetotal. You don't, you know. [00:47:22] Speaker B: I know. It's so funny. I, like. I don't totally know entirely, like, how I'm going to accomplish this, but I, like, want to, like, really, like, you know, like, maybe lift more. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Sure. [00:47:33] Speaker B: Get, like, get my cardio, like, really kind of back to where it was in the old days. Because it's not like, I'm still not, like, fully where I could, like, you know, run a full mile without walking it or like, things like that. You know, like those little, like, markers that I could do pre pandemic, but, like, haven't gotten back yet. Like, that's the kind of thing that I'm looking for. Yeah. When it comes down to it, like, I move more than most people. I walk everywhere who doesn't drink or smoke or any of those kinds of things. But, you know, there's those little markers of, like, actual, like, health and personal goals. [00:48:14] Speaker A: They feel like more personal goals than anything else. Because by any objective measure. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. I don't have anything, like, wrong with me. My blood panels are good and things like that. It's more like I want to be able to do the things that I did before. [00:48:30] Speaker A: So I. I'm on just to. To make it about me. I'm really pleased with how consistent I'm staying from a gym point of view. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Yeah. For real. [00:48:40] Speaker A: I've been. I've been taking creatine religiously. Is that a supplement you've heard of? [00:48:45] Speaker B: I have, yeah. I've never dabbled in it myself, but it's pretty popular. Amongst like high school kids. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Very. Just completely safe and well researched and. [00:48:57] Speaker B: That'S why high schoolers use it. Like there's no like, you know, it's not like anything that's going to permanently. [00:49:03] Speaker A: Damage in the least naturally occurring aids kind of water retention muscles. So strength and recovery time has also been said to help with kind of brain power. You know what I mean? Absolute wonder powder. So I've been dumping, dumping a scoop of that in my coffee every morning. [00:49:26] Speaker B: It's so funny how like you, you do. I feel like you approach fitness fads in a way that like, you reject in other things. You know, like how normally you like immediately are like, this is interesting. Yeah. Like you'll be like, oh, I'm so turned off to like this concept, like immediately just sounds like bullshit. But you don't necessarily do that with fitness stuff. I think you're more likely to at least give it a shot. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Right? Let me tell you, Let me tell you what I will always embrace. Right? And I am always open to. And I'm always open to being swayed by. Right. And that is science and facts. Right? [00:50:06] Speaker B: That's true. But also I think when it comes to like nutrition and things like that, there's like so many different takes on these kinds of things that you take the science that leads toward the, towards the thing works. Well, put it like more than the. [00:50:20] Speaker A: Ones that don't put it like this on paper. Right. I almost feel shitty about talking shit about her on the podcast because I love Laura. Right. Married to her. [00:50:36] Speaker B: We know it's not. Yet you have different beliefs about things. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Exactly. And it's incredible that she's not a Tory. Right. Because she's got so many Tory traits. She gives Tori like, like hard. And to that end we. I was reading my book and she was watching Jamie fucking Oliver on the tv. Right? [00:51:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:03] Speaker A: She goes to a chiropractor, for fuck's sake. She takes nutrition. [00:51:06] Speaker B: Yeah. We talked about that during our. [00:51:08] Speaker A: And it got quite sour in the room with me and Laura because Jamie Oliver was spouting shit like, all right. And this dish has got lots of vitamin B which helps protect your brain against damage. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Uh huh. [00:51:22] Speaker A: And it became quite huge. I was like, this is absolute, patently fucking nutritionist. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Is it? I don't know what vitamin B does. [00:51:31] Speaker A: When you speak in terms of things like superfoods and antioxidants. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, antioxidants are real. That's the thing. [00:51:41] Speaker A: I don't believe they are. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Well, see, you're like, I don't believe it. [00:51:45] Speaker A: Wait Wait, it's real. [00:51:46] Speaker B: It's an actual thing. You just don't like the, like way it's leveraged. And so you've decided it does not exist as a thing in general. [00:51:55] Speaker A: To my left. To my left. One of the most impactful and important books I have ever read is a book called Bad Science by a British doctor, Ben Gollager. And it's. It's a few years old now. It's got to be at least 50, 10, 15 years old, but it's. It absolutely fucking woke me the fuck up. When it comes to. [00:52:16] Speaker B: When it comes to those keywords that. [00:52:18] Speaker A: People use, the things, the fucking red flags, the little triggers you can listen for. And as soon as anyone. Toxins words right out of my mouth. As soon as detoxing, anyone mentions toxins in a dietary or a nutrition kind of sense, you can immediately write them the fuck off as hucksters and fucking quacks. What are you looking for there? [00:52:42] Speaker B: Oh, Wally is chewing on a cable. Yeah, no, I think that there's something to that. But I think one of the more interesting things to me is that there are those things that we've all learned to look out for, right? Like, if you know anything about science, you know, those are huckster terms. But there's other ones that sound real, that, like, we don't question as much. Right. Like, so the protein boom. [00:53:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:53:08] Speaker B: Right now, right, everyone's saying, oh, you gotta fucking pound the protein and all that kind of stuff. And like, real doctors, like dietitians are like, no, you don't. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:53:17] Speaker B: You don't need to do that. [00:53:19] Speaker A: I've seen it, shared that it's. It's simply a fucking piece of marketing sleight of hand by a food industry that creates a surplus of protein. [00:53:29] Speaker B: Right. How do we get rid of this exactly? Tell the health people. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Yep. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Mm. 100%, you know, like those kinds of things that, like, that sounds healthy. Because we do know we need protein. That's an important thing. And so because that is sold to us that way, it doesn't feel the same as someone telling us, you know, oh, you need to use, you know, you need to detox your liver with, you know, cayenne pepper and lemon juice or whatever, where we can go, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. You know, like the bullshit meter goes off and, you know, all these things that make sort of claims, you know, like, I'm sure, you know, creatine isn't like a wonder powder or whatever it. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Has, you know, it is it is again, like I said, the. One of the most well researched supplements. [00:54:14] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Of all the supplements out there, you know. But I do think that like, yeah, there's, I think a lot of that stuff is easier to get on board with than things that are like, clearly. Woo. Like when it comes to like what to do eat and, and put inside you and whatnot. Like, you know, when like there's like an obvious like shill of something like that. But a lot of times when it comes to dietary guidance, like things that sound like common sense or whatever are like kind of bullshit when it comes down to it, you know. [00:54:47] Speaker A: Yeah, actually it, I, I am not, I'm not a doctor, but. [00:54:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:55] Speaker A: I don't see that it makes a whit of difference what source you get your nutrients from as long as you get them. [00:55:02] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, exactly. Which is a thing I'm fascinated by. I would love, you know, if anyone on here has like, knows someone who's like a dietary scientist. I am obsessed with these things because, you know, that's the reason that I like to track things is not for calories and stuff like that, but to see like, you know, how much vitamin A, how much vitamin B, like things like that. Because I don't understand like the idea that what we eat does make an impact on us while it doesn't necessarily feel any different, fascinates me. [00:55:33] Speaker A: Does it make any difference then if I, if I consume vitamin C from drinking orange juice or if I consume vitamin C, the same amount of vitamin C in pill form, does it make any fucking difference to my body? Does my body know, oh, he's drinking some juice here? [00:55:51] Speaker B: Right. Like there, there are issues of like bioavailability, Right. There are some forms of things that make it more bioavailable in your body than other things. Right. So like to a degree I'm sure that's the case. But more often, you know, the reason why like a dietitian would say take the pill instead of the juice is the sugar in the juice. Right. Like the calories in the juice. Not because that is less bioavailable to you than, you know, taking it in a vitamin. Flintstone vitamin in the morning, it's usually about the other things that go along with how you're ingesting that thing. Like if you're eating like protein that's good for your body. If you're eating getting that protein as fried chicken, of course, obviously it's coming with something else that's doing other stuff to your body. Right. And I'm just Fascinated on, like, that level. And it's something that I, like, just don't have the knowledge. I can read as much as I want about this stuff, but I'm fascinated by the processes by which, like, we take stuff and put it into our bodies and it matters in how our body works. That's crazy to me. [00:57:07] Speaker A: I am. But like many other things, I'm more fascinated by how you can. Ah, man. How do. How to articulate this. Is there a way, I wonder, of making that art? Is there a way of giving your body absolutely everything it needs but consuming no food? Like, as you would understand food? Could I survive and thrive as a human being with a row of fucking supplements and powders in front of me, right? [00:57:40] Speaker B: And that's what all those biohacking Silicon Valley guys are trying to figure out, right? Like, what is the least amount I can put into my body and still get all of the things with that. [00:57:51] Speaker A: Is why I'm so attracted to Huel. I still. I still consume Hull very, very regularly. And I love a minimalist. It is. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I like food too much for that stuff. Like, why would I want. I don't care about the rest of it. I just want to, like. Like, eating is the pleasure of my life. So why would I take that out of the equation? Doesn't make any sense to me. But like, a lot of these guys, that's what they're trying to do. They don't want to gain weight, they just want to live, right? So, like, what is the least amount I could put in me that, like, would sustain me? And it just like, I remember one of the things that was kind of a formative thing when I was a kid was that to sort of demonstrate how world hunger worked. In my class, we had like, a hat or whatever with three slips of paper, three colors of paper, I should say, and enough for the whole class. And by percentage, it was basically on how much of the world, like, doesn't get enough nutrients and how much gets, like, the basic amount to live and how much, like, eats like we do in America, right? And so that was that proportion of the class of slips in there. And so a few people pulled out the ones that met, just eat like usual, right? And then there was a portion of people who essentially got to eat, like, rice, beans and a vegetable. And that gave you, like, all the, like, eight amino acids that you need, right? And then the other people only got to eat, like, rice and beans or just rice or something like that. And like, functionally, it's like, that is calorically. Perhaps enough to fill you for the day. But you are going to start to feel tired and you're going to start to feel weak. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Scurvy. [00:59:37] Speaker B: Gonna feel. You get scurvy. Right. You'll start to feel fuzzy and things like that. It was like, for a week, eat like your, you know, whatever slip you pulled. And like, the idea was like, to show us, like, you can tell which students were eating which ways because they weren't getting the amount of vitamins and nutrients they needed. And so even if you have the right amount, if it's not containing the right stuff, then you can't function. And I just, I, you know, on top of the hunger message that that was supposed to send, on top of it, that sort of started this lifelong, like, interest for me. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:14] Speaker B: Of, you know, the stuff that we take in, how that is processed and, you know, makes a difference and how we think. [01:00:22] Speaker A: You know, I, I haven't really put it in those terms before, but I really cannot understate how good that book is, how good bad science is. It's just, it just paints the clearest picture of how to spot the shit, the industry and people with coin to make from it, how they do what they do. It's wonderful. [01:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah. My sister and I have been talking a lot about the idea that people. People know to be wary of things. Like the mainstream media. They know to be wary of Big Pharma. They know to be wary of things, but they know it wrong because they don't have enough of the base knowledge to know which part they're supposed to be wary of. So when they say, I don't trust the mainstream media, they mean, like, if it, like, whatever they say, they're lying. Right. As opposed to going, I don't trust the mainstream media. Who benefits? [01:01:24] Speaker A: Yes. [01:01:25] Speaker B: How do I determine, like, whether the narrative that they're giving me is being paid for by someone or is like, being worded in a way that causes me to. That obscures the point, you know, or things like that. [01:01:39] Speaker A: Those two words, who benefits? Are words that in recent years I have asked my. My family, my dad in particular, some of Laura's family, when they are repeating verbatim stuff that they've seen in front of the date star that day. [01:01:57] Speaker B: As soon as you start hearing people. [01:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:00] Speaker B: Say the same things that have become the, like, pull. [01:02:03] Speaker A: Pull the thread a little bit. Who benefits from you thinking? [01:02:06] Speaker B: Who benefits from you thinking. Exactly. You know, they had a. The two things that I had a teacher who was really just who benefits? And consider the source yes. And I think that's where, like, people falter, is that they go. I'm wary of this. I know that Big Pharma doesn't have my best interest in mind. It has profits in mind. And thus I can trust this guy on Instagram who is selling me a whole bunch of, like, random pills that do nothing or whatever. And that's like, the logical leap from that. Like, therefore, I can trust anybody else who is not. Yeah, Big Pharma. Right. Like, aiming the. That critical thinking in the correct direction is a problem. And something like that book that you're talking about, I think is, like, so necessary for people to. Like, all right, like, you've got. You're. You're a step in the right direction on the critical thinking train. Right. You know that you can't just blanket trust certain things. Now. How do you decide? Right. Like, what. What is the process behind that? Do you know enough? Yeah. Vibes is like how most people kind of go off of, like, does this person appeal to, like, how I feel about myself? Then I think I can trust that person. You know, do they reflect back on me, the person I think I am or that I want to be? [01:03:34] Speaker A: Yes. [01:03:35] Speaker B: I can trust them. Like, oh, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works. [01:03:40] Speaker A: Moving on. I want to talk about something positive, something incredible, an experience that I've had this last. [01:03:46] Speaker B: Wonderful. [01:03:47] Speaker A: So. Right. [01:03:48] Speaker B: That's exciting. [01:03:49] Speaker A: And it's. It's a new experience from something old. [01:03:54] Speaker B: Okay. [01:03:54] Speaker A: I may well have spoken in the past about my love of a big watershed gaming moment for me again. Oh, early, early noughties. It would have been Metal Gear Solid. Right. So this last week saw the re release and a remaster of the third game in that series, Metal Gear Solid 3. And it's every bit and more as good as it. As people say it is. Right. Widely regarded as one of the best, certainly one of the best games of that generation and one of the best bits of storytelling of all time. Right, Nice. But something new happened to me with that game. I understood something a. Just the biggest, most glorious light bulb went off. [01:04:49] Speaker B: Nice. [01:04:50] Speaker A: In my head as I was playing that game this week. And I'm gonna try and sketch it out for you. Right. I'm gonna try and let you know what I mean. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Lock it in. [01:04:58] Speaker A: In the same way as a suede might. Might talk about elevated horror. Right? [01:05:05] Speaker B: A what? [01:05:06] Speaker A: A sued P S E U D A pseudo fan, you know? [01:05:10] Speaker B: Okay, sure. [01:05:11] Speaker A: In the same way a suede might mention elevated horror, the same type of person might Talk about games as art, right? Video gaming as an art form. [01:05:22] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. [01:05:23] Speaker A: And I think. I absolutely believe it is. It is. [01:05:28] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. [01:05:29] Speaker A: For goddamn sure. And that was never more clear to me than when I was playing Metal Gear Solid three. This week I'm gonna sketch out the plot here. Right? So Snake, in his formative years, goes on a covert mission into Russia. And on the surface, his task is to recapture a scientist who's being held hostage developing a nuclear tank. Now, in his path are a squad of elite mercenaries led by the boss and Colonel Volgin. And these are known as the Cobras. Right. [01:06:10] Speaker B: Okay. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Each of these mercenaries is named after the. The emotion that they bring to the battlefield. Okay. And one of the plots is Snake's relationship with the boss. She's his mentor, his. You know, he's her protege, her student. And she won't. Won't quite pull the trigger on killing him because he's growing as a soldier and learning his own battlefield emotion. Right? Wonderful stuff, wonderful stuff. Now, these Cobras are called the Fear, the Pain, the Fury, the End, and the Sorrow. [01:06:56] Speaker B: Okay? [01:06:56] Speaker A: Right. [01:06:57] Speaker B: Yep. [01:06:58] Speaker A: And I'm working my way through them all. And this week, I fought the Fury. [01:07:05] Speaker B: Okay, now it's like that as a sentence. This week I fought the Fury. [01:07:10] Speaker A: This week, as every week, I fought. Now you'll know the idiosyncratic reputation Hideo Kojima has as a storyteller and as a. As a creative. Yes, sure. Full of fourth wall breaking. Just the game is. Is not the thing. The experience is the thing with Hideo. And the detail is just. The level of detail is incredible. And I realized during the boss fight of the Fear, right? Imagine like, Predator. The guy is invisible in the woods, right? And you've got a. You've got to beat him by wearing thermal goggles so you can see his heat signature. But there's jump scares. Fuck. There he is. Whoa. Ah, shit. He creeps up on you, right? [01:07:58] Speaker B: Mm. [01:07:59] Speaker A: The end. Randall, if you will. Yes, I know who Randall is. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Do you? Or are you? [01:08:07] Speaker A: No, I do not. I do not know who Randall is. From Monsters, Inc. Oh, yeah, very much so. But more scary. But more fear. [01:08:15] Speaker B: Randall scares the shit out of me. [01:08:17] Speaker A: That's why he comes to be scared. [01:08:19] Speaker B: That's what I thought of. [01:08:20] Speaker A: He's got no morals. He's got no moral compass. He doesn't mortal things. The boss called. The end is a sniper battle. And it's a long battle, right? You're there. You're there for a long time. Like 20, 30 minutes in one boss fight. The Fury, who I fought is so frustrating. It's a, it's a cat and mouse kind of boss where you're creeping around corners and hiding and popping out and nailing him and he gets you. It's a long fight and you are so frustrated. It's almost a controller smasher, right? [01:08:53] Speaker B: Uh huh. [01:08:54] Speaker A: And it occurred to me, Corrigan, Kojima is making the player feel the emotions of the boss that he's fighting. The fear sneaks up on you. There are jump scares. The end is long and grinds you down. The Fury makes you so fucking frustrated when he gets you. He is reaching through the fucking game, giving the player those very emotions that you are fighting against in the game. [01:09:27] Speaker B: Nice. [01:09:28] Speaker A: How fucking brilliant is that? [01:09:32] Speaker B: That is pretty. Yeah. [01:09:34] Speaker A: Tell me that is not an incredible piece of storytelling. [01:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [01:09:41] Speaker A: I had to share that. I mean, I had to share that. It hit me like a fucking ton of bricks. I cannot think of a single other interaction with any art form of my life that is reached out of the format. [01:09:57] Speaker B: Ren. [01:09:58] Speaker A: Like that does. [01:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:01] Speaker A: And you know, I first played that fucking again 25, 30 years ago. [01:10:05] Speaker B: And it didn't, it didn't, didn't occur to you then? [01:10:07] Speaker A: It didn't occur to me at the time, but I was. [01:10:09] Speaker B: You need to grow. You needed to grow into it. [01:10:11] Speaker A: Maybe, maybe, maybe. And the Fury took me days to beat him and it was so fucking frustrating. And then it hit me. I'm feeling the fury. [01:10:19] Speaker B: It's working. [01:10:22] Speaker A: Marvelous. [01:10:22] Speaker B: Amazing. [01:10:23] Speaker A: Absolutely marvelous stuff. I digress. I apologize. I just, I. [01:10:26] Speaker B: No, that's great. [01:10:27] Speaker A: I can't talk to my wife about this. In fact, I tried at one point. You know what I mean? These are the conversations I could only have here. [01:10:44] Speaker B: Well, I love it. I feel great about it. [01:10:47] Speaker A: What a thrill. [01:10:50] Speaker B: I'm still just playing Dreamlight Valley mostly, so, you know, I have no interesting insights into video games at this point. But, you know, I've been through many that have, you know, impacted me deeply. [01:11:04] Speaker A: I've never known anything like it. I've never known anything remotely close to that piece of flair, you know, just the balls on that. Storytelling is incredible. [01:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's super cool. Yeah, man, love it. [01:11:19] Speaker A: We. We got some movies to talk about. I think probably. [01:11:23] Speaker B: We do. We do have some movies to talk about. We didn't talk last week. We were thinking of doing it as a snack. We'll do something else for. Yeah, for snack. And since we haven't watched. Well, I know I haven't watched a ton of movies because I was on the other side of the country and whatnot, you know, and my sister having a party with my homies. And my sister is here. So naturally we had to watch K Pop Demon Hunters again, which is, like, the. The only thing, like, I listen to on the plane and whatnot as well. Just a lot of K Pop Demon Hunters. Walter, he's now eating the chair. [01:11:56] Speaker A: Don't eat that. [01:11:58] Speaker B: It's my fault because I didn't feed him before the podcast, so he is. [01:12:02] Speaker A: Very much your fault. [01:12:03] Speaker B: Real crazy. But yeah. So we have some things to. I don't know. [01:12:09] Speaker A: Man, you're sleepy, aren't you? [01:12:11] Speaker B: I'm so sleepy. Do you see how many times I just yawned? I was like, tears rolling down my. [01:12:16] Speaker A: Face, talking to you about Metal Gear and having you yawn at me. I may as well talk about it at home. [01:12:21] Speaker B: It's just every time I stop talking, my brain's like, all right, then just immediately start yawning. The only thing. Right. The only thing preventing me from yawning at the moment is my mouth moving. Walter, what is this? What do you got, buds? Is that pants? I don't. He's. I don't know what this guy's. [01:12:45] Speaker A: Plus, you've got. You've still got croaky party voice. [01:12:47] Speaker B: Croaky voice. I sound like a disaster. Oh, is that my sock? What's going on, man? Is that pants? So, yeah, Walter over here eating a chin. Well, first things first. Just so you know, Kristen and I the other night, and Brienne and Kio, but specifically for the purpose of the Joag fan cave, Kristen and I sat down and watched the 1976 the Omen. [01:13:17] Speaker A: Oh, beautiful. [01:13:18] Speaker B: Yes. So, you know, I really. I wanted to get her. It's like a challenging classic, you know, one that wasn't like, a, like, instant crowd pleaser type thing. I feel like, you know, a lot of the classics I've shown are so. [01:13:30] Speaker A: Because you've matured with her now, haven't you? She's kind of out of the training. Wheels are off. [01:13:35] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. So it's like, you know, A Nightmare on Elm Street. Of course she liked A Nightmare on Elm Street. Like, I know what you did last time. Of course she liked I know what you did last summer. You know, like, these things were like. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Does this have, like, an end boss? Is there an end game here? Is there something that you can build towards? Almost like, you know, microdosing snake venom and becoming. [01:13:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's like, some, like, milestones we'll hit along the way that are kind of Biggies, you know, like, we did it. Which she was terrified of and she hated because it scared the shit out of her, you know. Well, like, the Shining is probably, you know, one of those ones, the Exorcist, you know, some of those ones that are like, genuinely sort of the, like, horror baddies. [01:14:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:16] Speaker B: You know, and then, like. Yeah, we do other things sort of in between. So the. I was like, I want to do something kind of birthday themed. So I thought, you know, it's his fifth birthday and he starts turning Antichrist Y. That seems thematic. You know, clearly you have the first scene at his birthday party with the nanny. It's all for you, Damien. So I was like, yeah, let's do this. We're gonna watch that. So we watched that the other night. And this Thursday, that will be your Joag fan cave for those of you who are doing the right thing. And follow us on the old ko fi ko-if I.com jackofallgraves pay a couple bucks a month, and you get to hear what we've done to poor Kristen each month, which is always a blast, let me tell you. There was lots of screaming during this. [01:15:09] Speaker A: Rewiring Kristen. [01:15:10] Speaker B: Lots of screams. Rewiring Kristen. Exactly. Walter Lieber. [01:15:14] Speaker A: Yes. And there's a ton of other stuff on there as well. Oh, yeah, let's plays Joag radio me. [01:15:22] Speaker B: Yes. [01:15:23] Speaker A: Doing unhinged reading of books. Just that you get access to the Kofi Joag archive is what you get. [01:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's so much. Ow. If you're not already on there, you've got so much to catch up on. [01:15:35] Speaker A: Why not make this the week that you do the right thing? [01:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Go check out the Omen. Do it for my birthday. Get on board and listen to us talk about the Omen. [01:15:47] Speaker A: That was a bit manipulative. [01:15:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, Big time. [01:15:52] Speaker A: To sound like a grifter. [01:15:56] Speaker B: Maybe. [01:15:59] Speaker A: If you know, you know. [01:16:00] Speaker B: Yes. If you know, you know. So other than this, let's see. We've. We watched a few things together. We've watched a few things apart. Ow. [01:16:10] Speaker A: Walter, listen. [01:16:11] Speaker B: Jesus Christ. [01:16:11] Speaker A: While you're wrangling your. We'll go. We'll say it's a dog. I will talk about. Fucking hell. Did we. We've done Slime City Massacre, haven't we? We've talked about that. [01:16:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:25] Speaker A: Right. So have we talked about. Know what you did last summer? [01:16:30] Speaker B: No. [01:16:30] Speaker A: Right. Friends. We are butting heads hard on this one. I think at the time I called it. It's a skinamarink, isn't it? Because you were. This was right up your throat. [01:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's not. But you know. [01:16:48] Speaker A: In terms of the. It felt like a really pronounced disagreement that we had about it over signal. I did not get this at all. I simply did. [01:16:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And I thought, you know, I, I say it's not a skimmer, skinnier ink. Because that was five stars versus one star. [01:17:06] Speaker A: Three and a half. And one. [01:17:08] Speaker B: Yeah, three and a half. Which I think is a pretty. [01:17:11] Speaker A: It's a, it's a two on the skinamarink scale. [01:17:15] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. I'm like, this is a. You know, I had fun. Not a. Like, this is a life changing movie. That's the scariest and most impacting thing that I have ever seen in my whole life kind of thing. [01:17:28] Speaker A: That is how I spoke about Skate of Marine Gap. [01:17:30] Speaker B: Yes. That was where we came from on this. [01:17:35] Speaker A: To go above one star isn't difficult. I don't think in a film. I don't think it's tough. [01:17:40] Speaker B: I was surprised that you gave it. [01:17:42] Speaker A: That low and I made that decision quite early on. I just found nothing. [01:17:47] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I could tell that much. [01:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:49] Speaker B: Yes. [01:17:49] Speaker A: I was respectful. I wasn't bad mouthing it all the way through. I waited until like 2. [01:17:52] Speaker B: No. But it was very clear you'd made your choice from like three minutes into the movie. [01:17:57] Speaker A: You tell me that the originals had characters that were easy to hate also. Yes. [01:18:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean you're talking about a movie about a group of teenagers who kill someone and leave. [01:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's as a. Yeah. As a starting point. [01:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So you know, you're coming from a place of. I did not know before this that Mark had never seen the other movies. [01:18:20] Speaker A: Nope. Kept that one to myself. Never seen a single one of these films. [01:18:24] Speaker B: So, you know, I think that like not having any frame of reference didn't help. But I also think, I mean, here's my thing with. I know what you did last summer, 2025 is, you know, a 46 year old man is deeply not who this is made for. This is made like the original for, you know, like tween, like you know, someone who is like on the cusp of becoming a teenager. So these are kids who are older to them, who are somewhat aspirational, you know who they're like, they're young and hot and give them something that they look at as like, wow, I could be. I could be that. And I think, you know, when it comes to this movie, like if I were, you know, 14, 15 years old, it's speaking to me. It doesn't feel like it's. It doesn't feel like millennials doing Gen Z or Gen Alpha or whatever here, which is a problem in a lot of. [01:19:24] Speaker A: Yes. [01:19:25] Speaker B: Teen movies that come out that it's clearly like it's written by someone my age, which it probably is, but. Right. Yeah. Like a guy who's, you know, like the Fear street prom queen one. It's, like, written by a British man who's 50. You know, like, this felt like it had, like, authenticity to it. It felt like it had, like, the quippiness that you see that, like, kids, like, and, you know, have in their ticky tackies and whatnot. And like, you know, it felt like it really hit the. The target audience for it. Well, it had banger soundtrack for that age group, which is, like, important to the other. I know what you did last summer. Movies like the Needle Drops are great and. Yeah, I thought. I felt like it was just like, you know, it had kills that were very fun throughout the whole thing and, you know, just kind of. It, like it hits all the notes that make you, as a kid, who probably. This. This may be the first time your parent has let you watched a horror movie. [01:20:21] Speaker A: And there it is. [01:20:22] Speaker B: Like, there it is. [01:20:23] Speaker A: Like I said to you at the time, right, that. That just caused me a great sadness. What I. What I found to be maybe intentionally so, but what I found to be completely vapid, completely vacant. 90 minutes of just nothing, of people I didn't give a fuck about. I found the kills bloodless and bland. [01:20:45] Speaker B: They weren't, though. You could find them that way, but they weren't. [01:20:48] Speaker A: It. It got wet towards the end, but I found the kills hard in the beginning. [01:20:53] Speaker B: Like, the first one was very bloody. [01:20:57] Speaker A: But as I said, I. I weep. Like, I literally shed literal, actual tears of sadness. Right. To think that there's someone, there's some 16, 17, 14, 15 year old out there who's like, oh, do you know what? I'm gonna give. I'm gonna give these horror movies a try because. [01:21:19] Speaker B: But you're 46. You're like, this is the oldest thing in the book. Because think about what actually came out when you were a kid. And like, 98% of it was bullshit. And it was what turned people onto it. It's like now, like, when guys your age like, talk about how the 80s was a golden era of horror, and then the rest of us watch it, we're like, what the fuck are you talking about? This was all terrible, right? Like, if I turned on the stuff now and it was the first movie that I'd ever seen in the horror genre. And it was one of those bullshit movies you watched when you were 14. Like, I would be like, oh, that sucks that that's the first thing someone like, turned on, because that's terrible. [01:21:58] Speaker A: Right. I, you know, make a mental note for us to return to this. Right. I will hold. 80s well, at least the tapes I was watching. Maybe they weren't what what kids were watching. [01:22:12] Speaker B: Generally, probably not. And also they wouldn't hold up, you know. [01:22:16] Speaker A: Oh, no, I don't agree. Again, I've seen a lot of them, you know, without. [01:22:20] Speaker B: As have I over the past several years. And they are largely. But they were a thing for you at the time. You were the target audience. And like, that worked for you. Where someone else, like in a different demographic would be like, oh, I weep that this is what kids are gonna think is horror. [01:22:44] Speaker A: I don't, I, I would hate to think that a kid, that somebody would watch this and think that that's what a horror movie is. That's all that a horror movie can be. [01:22:53] Speaker B: Well, but that's silly. Like, if you take any horror movie, you could say that, right? Like, this isn't any more of like, oh, this is all the genre has to offer than anything else. And it's now. [01:23:04] Speaker A: But it's. [01:23:04] Speaker B: They have so many choices. [01:23:06] Speaker A: High fucking production value. It's high budget. It's in the fucking movies. This is. [01:23:11] Speaker B: Right. But this is not even close to like the one worst of like Bloom House even, you know, like, it's doing what it's supposed to do. It's like going to. This is like teen movies are a genre. Right. Like, that's a thing in and of itself. This is like horror as a sub genre of teen movie instead of. Yes, teen as a sub genre of horror movie. And so first. [01:23:35] Speaker A: But even in subgenre, this is a movie of teen. [01:23:39] Speaker B: I don't think so. I think it's very fun. I think it is. It delivers everything you need for a movie that is engaging for a teenager. [01:23:46] Speaker A: What did you rate? Happy Death Day on letterboxd. [01:23:51] Speaker B: Probably somewhere in 3.5 or 4 era. Yeah, somewhere in that vicinity. [01:23:56] Speaker A: That's where the problem is here. Because those are in terms of quality. Wildly, wildly, far away. [01:24:03] Speaker B: But they're different things. I don't rate like, oh, this is the. No, it isn't. [01:24:08] Speaker A: It is. [01:24:08] Speaker B: That's not a teen horror. [01:24:10] Speaker A: What am I, I am thinking of the right movie online. [01:24:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Where the girl keeps dying and it's like a groundhog Day thing. That's not teen horror as a genre. Okay, See, that's what I'm saying. That's hard. [01:24:20] Speaker A: Which is the one where the girl was back in time. [01:24:23] Speaker B: Oh, I don't. I don't know. [01:24:24] Speaker A: To find her mum's killer, you know. [01:24:29] Speaker B: That'S the final girls. [01:24:31] Speaker A: Maybe not, right? No, it's more recent than that. [01:24:34] Speaker B: Oh, no, no, Totally, totally. Totally something. [01:24:37] Speaker A: Totally killers or totally slashers. [01:24:39] Speaker B: Totally killer. [01:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah, totally killer teen horror. Excellent. [01:24:45] Speaker B: Right. So what I'm talking about, that's horror with teen as the subgenre, as opposed to teen with horror as the subgenre. I think those are different things. And so this is like. This is like a CW movie that has. Do you know what CW is? [01:25:02] Speaker A: No, I know of it, but we don't have it. And I don't know what CW stands for. [01:25:06] Speaker B: Okay. CW is a channel that is geared at, like, teenagers and, like, young 20s kind of people that basically is just shows about really hot people that like, happen to have something. Oh, they're werewolves or they're vampires or it's, you know, a superhero or something like that. But the point is, you want to watch hot people drama. And then also, you know, they might have a problem because they're 600 years old and a vampire. Right. Like, this is the horror is. And also. But the teen drama or the young adult drama is the headliner. [01:25:46] Speaker A: It certainly isn't movie. I don't think I know what you did last summer is positioned that way. It's positioned as a. As a horror movie. [01:25:53] Speaker B: And that's because you've never seen I know what you did last summer. And I think if you're looking at these, you know, these movies taken as a whole, that's what they're for. Like, they're supposed to be like, first and foremost, here's like, a hot cast that you want to see, you know, get into their, like, interpersonal issues and stuff like that. And also they did something up and they're getting punished for it as well. And so, yeah, I think it. I like that kind of of movie. You know, I think those are always really fun for me to just kind of, like, sit back and enjoy teens being teens or whatever, and then also have this, like, through line of, you know, slasher mayhem and things like that. You know, it's stuff that, you know, deals with ethical and moral dilemmas for teens that are very black and white. They don't have to think deep, super hard about it. And it's like, Friday night, go out and you See it, you put your arm around someone and you know that kind of thing. It's, that's the kind of movie this is made to be. So I'm not rating it to be like a, you know, classic or whatever, but I think it will be for like a lot of younger people. I think they will go, this is like. I remember going to see this in the theater with my friends in middle school and like, we were all like so freaked out and stuff like that. Like, this is exactly that kind of movie that gets. Not the, not the nerds like us who were like, you know, my first horror movie was when I was three and I, you know, watched Killer Clowns from Outer Space and you know, whatever. Like those kids exist too, but this isn't for them. This is for the, the 15 year old whose parents have never let them watch a horror movie. And like, they, they really want to see a teen movie, but also with like, ooh, high stakes, you know, and yeah, not. [01:27:49] Speaker A: I won't kind of labor the point, but even the example you just mentioned there, right. You don't have to. A movie doesn't have to fucking, you know, hurt you in some way for you to remember it and for it to be formative. And there is nothing, and I know what you did last summer that will bring somebody back to horror. No, I don't. [01:28:13] Speaker B: This is gonna be a staple for me. I'm gonna watch this one like every Halloween. So I think, yeah, I think you're just coming at it from like you, you could not be further from the target audience from this movie. And you don't have any like emotional connection to being like a, you know, 13 year old girl who would watch this kind of movie. [01:28:35] Speaker A: I got depth. [01:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's just like so far out of the realm of the things that brought you to horror that you can't fathom that this would bring someone else to horror. Whereas this I know when I was in middle school and Killer Clowns is. [01:28:55] Speaker A: Such a great example of exactly what I'm talking about. It has that what the fuck factor, that even though it's palatable and it has the hot cast and it's got the fucking, you know, the, the high school and the relationships that you're talking about. But it's still got that they're still fucking drinking props and that's what I'm talking about. [01:29:11] Speaker B: There's nothing for like challenges for weirdos that's really fun for normies who are not like autistic strange kids that they watch that and they go, what the fuck is this? They re. They watch that and they go, that's bad. They don't see that as, like, oh, wow, that's like. That's so weird and uncanny, and it makes me feel. Feel weird. They go, oh, this is a bad movie. [01:29:37] Speaker A: No, I don't agree. I think it's got that kind of aftertaste of, fuck, I just saw something that looks like it was made for me. But hang on, there's something weird here that's compelling me to go back. [01:29:49] Speaker B: I think you have a very hard time stepping out of your frame of reference on this. No, I think you are struggling to see this from the perspective of someone who did not come at horror the way you did. [01:30:04] Speaker A: I'm certainly struggling to see how anyone would leave the theater after seeing that and going, man, those were the great days, weren't they? When I saw I know what you did last summer, I just. [01:30:12] Speaker B: Oh. And it will for sure. I guarantee you. This is one of those ones that kids now are going to remember that way. [01:30:22] Speaker A: All right. [01:30:22] Speaker B: Well, they're gonna absolutely look that way. [01:30:25] Speaker A: We'll look back in five years. We'll see. [01:30:27] Speaker B: Mm. [01:30:29] Speaker A: On our 10th anniversary. [01:30:32] Speaker B: 10Th anniversary, yes. @ which point I will have watched it, you know, another five or six times by then. [01:30:38] Speaker A: Yes. We'll just breathe. I'm. Man, I'm gonna sound like such a cunt this week. The Naked Gun, just another one star. [01:30:48] Speaker B: That's crazy to me. But the only other person I know who rated it, one star is also a British. So let me. I don't know. You guys are. [01:30:54] Speaker A: Let me hold it up to the. To the Naked Gun. Let me hold it up to Leslie Nielsen's Naked Gun. Right. I. You. I've spoken before plenty of times about how there's a particular type of stupid which is just the best. Right. And the Naked Gun is a brilliant example of that kind of stupid. Right? [01:31:13] Speaker B: Right. Yes, Agree. [01:31:14] Speaker A: Whereas the Naked Gun isn't Naked Gun 2025. I felt condescended to because jokes that Naked Gun OG would have just made and walked past. And you either saw it or you didn't. It doesn't care. Onto the next gag. The naked guy I saw this week hammers every gag home and repeats it and makes sure you got it and just goes, did you get that joke? Because here it is again. I'll say it again for you. It repeats gags that the original would have just thrown at you and you moved on from. It condescends in a way that the first one did not. [01:31:55] Speaker B: I don't think it's condescending. I think that's Akiva Goldsman's humor. Or Goldsman Schaefer, whichever Akiva that is. [01:32:01] Speaker A: It's. I also saw Seth MacFarlane in the credits and these. There's a fucking red flag right there. [01:32:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, at my birthday party, we all had a great big love fest because every single person loved that movie. And aside from you and the one other Brit, everyone else on my letter box loved that one. [01:32:21] Speaker A: Hey. [01:32:25] Speaker B: What did your kids think? I'm curious. [01:32:26] Speaker A: Oh, hated it also. [01:32:28] Speaker B: Really? [01:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah. It left a big stink in the Lewis household. Really unfortunate. [01:32:33] Speaker B: How funny. [01:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:34] Speaker B: That's interesting. Yeah. I don't know, maybe it just doesn't connect cross culturally, but that is still. I. I think about it all the time and just quietly googled myself about that movie. [01:32:47] Speaker A: Lots of examples just how to. This is. Come with me. All right. This is a. This seems like an incongruous example, but trust me. [01:32:59] Speaker B: Okay. [01:33:00] Speaker A: Michael Bay's Transformers, right? [01:33:03] Speaker B: Uh huh. [01:33:05] Speaker A: I got. I was so taken out of that film by the end of it. When I saw it in the cinema at one point I just started counting the length of the shots in the film. Right? [01:33:15] Speaker B: Right. [01:33:16] Speaker A: And there isn't a fucking single shot in the last half of that movie that lasts over a second or two. [01:33:23] Speaker B: Right. [01:33:23] Speaker A: Just cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. I found myself doing the same with Naked Gun. How many times you gonna repeat the gag to make sure I what? That I got it? The coffee cup gag. Which is a great gag. He gets a massive coffee cup. Fucking so stupid. Why would he have a giant coffee cup? And that's such a good gag. And if they just fucking stop doing it. [01:33:43] Speaker B: I like her. I like the callback. I enjoy the repeating of it. I do see how it's different from the original. [01:33:51] Speaker A: Good. [01:33:51] Speaker B: But I enjoy the. [01:33:54] Speaker A: Just give me the credit. [01:33:55] Speaker B: That's one of that builds to me. [01:33:57] Speaker A: Give me the credit to know that. [01:33:58] Speaker B: I sold you well. Yeah. You're looking at it differently that you're seeing it as. They think you didn't get it. So they're doing it again. That's not what they're doing. They're going. It's funnier the more you see it. That's. That's the attitude that the movie has is they're, you know, each time you see the thing, the stupidity builds of the fact that that came back around again. It's not condescending to you. It's just. That is Lonely island humor. Right? Like just keep listen. [01:34:27] Speaker A: Bringing it back you know, again, I've spoken in the past about the, you know, the times and funn axis of a joke, and there is a spot where repetition takes you to incredible places. But I just, I felt that it was pointing and at its own gags just to make sure that it had. You got this. Yeah. All right, now move on. And I. I'm not done with that. I get it. I got it the first time, you know. [01:34:53] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. It's just a kind of humor that doesn't work for you. I loved it. Yeah. Works for me. [01:34:58] Speaker A: Okay, cool. [01:35:03] Speaker B: We also watched together. [01:35:06] Speaker A: Together. [01:35:08] Speaker B: Together. Yes. The Dave Franco and Alison Brie movie who are. I will acknowledge people who annoy the out of me in the first place. [01:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:20] Speaker B: But I think I came in trying to give it a fair shake anyway. And I thought it was a run of the mill movie. I was like, it really. It leans into trope. I mean, this is one of the reasons that I don't like Alison Brie and Dave Franco is because they think that they are making horror smarter. And they're always talking about like, yeah, we wanted to make a horror movie, but we wanted to make it smart because most horror movies are stupid. [01:35:44] Speaker A: Remind me what. What other horror Alison Brie has done, because I can't think of any. [01:35:49] Speaker B: They made a movie that was on Netflix. The Guest House, the Vacation House, the. I don't know, something that was. I think you saw it. But it was forgettable because they make forgettable movies. [01:36:04] Speaker A: Sure. [01:36:04] Speaker B: And like, it just drives me crazy that they like make such a big deal about like most horrors. Dumb. But we make horror that is really smart. And it's like, this movie is like a perfectly regular horror. It follows all of the exact same. Like, you can predict every beat of this movie. It does all the tropes. Everything is exactly how you would imagine it would unfold. It's fine. Like, I will never think about it again. [01:36:33] Speaker A: I. Listen, I don't disagree with much of what you just said. It does commit a few cardinal sins. It sets up. It tells you what these characters are all about. It shows you what these characters are all about and then has them acting in ways that are totally at odds with what you think you know about them. Alison Brie is a neurotic, controlling, just proudly red flag waving partner who acts completely at odds with that when placed in situations of peril, takes ridiculous risks, doesn't see the fucking contextual clues around her in the scene, just acts completely at odds with how she's been sketched out. But other than That. I totally agree with you. It is, by the numbers, is pulled back from the brink of mediocrity to me with some really nice, crafted, lovingly made, practical effects. It's, you know, the. The flesh, the melding kind of body is really nice. It's, It's. There are plenty of places that make you kind of sharply inhale at the nastiness of what's going on in front of you. It's a horror that dwells on misshapen bodies, bits that shouldn't be where they are. And I, I, you know, I'm a sucker for a lumpy human, basically. [01:37:56] Speaker B: Yeah. As I said, My. My 2.5 stars of that movie were four effects and otherwise. Yep, just a. Just a regular horror movie. [01:38:05] Speaker A: And it has the shot. [01:38:06] Speaker B: One that appears. Yeah, it has the shot. It does have the drone shot, but, yeah. One that also is apparently stolen from at least one, maybe two other movies. I know. [01:38:15] Speaker A: I didn't. I didn't know that that hadn't reached me. Is it. Is it. Does it steal? [01:38:19] Speaker B: Apparently they're, like, in a lawsuit about it right now, including even the. The Spice Girls needle drop at the end happens in the movie. The other movie about people in the same situation, which is pretty specific. You know, it could be a coincidence, but also whether or not it is, that just shows how, like, not super original the movie is that it's like, you know, another movie is like, you rip this off. Okay, but what else? Oh, so I watched this movie from 1964 called Dead Ringer because it was directed by Paul Henry, who I love as an actor. And he. He's not that you would know, but he's Laszlo in Casablanca. And, you know, I was like, I feel like maybe I'm in a mode to, like, watch all the. The Paul Henry movies. And this came up. It stars Bette Davis as, like, this woman who. She has a twin sister and kills the twin sister and takes over her life because she's much more successful than she is. And it's like, on its surface, like, that's an interesting premise or whatever, but, like, the script was bad and it was boring. It's like womp. I'm sure Paul Henry and Bette Davis had fun, but Dead Ringer was not a particularly good movie. [01:39:52] Speaker A: Is it what we talking, 50s 64? Okay, okay. [01:39:57] Speaker B: But so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to watch a different Paul Henry movie that I've been meaning to for years, and I won't go into it super deeply because it's not a Horror movie. But I watched 1942's Now Voyager, which stars Paul Henry and Bette Davis, and I have not stopped thinking about it fast. Ten days since I watched it. Just absolutely blew my mind. You know, I think I said in my letterbox review that I haven't felt like this after finishing a movie since Passengers. That's the last time I finished something and just had that, like, stomach ache of, wow. Like, holy moly. So if you've never seen Now Voyager, Bette Davis plays this woman who has been, like, mistreated by her family, basically. She's like, you know, got a sister and all that. Who's the favorite? And they, you know, she's prettier and all these things, and so they, like, basically let her become, like, a spinster. They mock her for being fat. And, you know, she's never gonna have anything in life. And she's just expected to, like, live her life out, you know, being neglected. And then after having a nervous breakdown, a psychiatrist played by Claude Rains comes in and is like, let me take her to my, like, institution. She's like this, because you people are all trash. So let's get her out of this situation. And she goes there and she gets better. And then he suggests that she go on this cruise where she meets a married man that she falls in love with. And then, of course, all the complications that arise with this, but it leads to, like, her changing her entire life. And so it's like a very, like, powerful, like, escaping cycles of abuse and, like, you know, finding your own destiny story and whatnot. That, like, also is, like, the most romantic thing I have ever seen in my life. It's just. It's so good. So now Voyager, if you're, like, looking for something that's just gonna leave you with, like, a little that feeling in your tummy of, like, oh, man. [01:42:05] Speaker A: Wistful emotions. [01:42:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Aching. Absolutely. I recommend Now Voyager. [01:42:11] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:42:13] Speaker B: I think that's pretty much it. Anything else on your end? [01:42:15] Speaker A: I will talk briefly of Alien Earth. [01:42:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Don't. Don't give anything away. I'm, like, three episodes behind now. [01:42:24] Speaker A: I'm giving nothing away. Only. Only that this last week's episode was easily up there with the very best this entire franchise has given us. And I'm talking about James Cameron, Ridley Scott. I'm talking about Fairly Alvarez. The best that this wow, entire property has been was on full display in an hour of stunning TV this week. Hot. So good. [01:42:57] Speaker B: Beautiful. I'll get there. I'll get there. [01:43:01] Speaker A: Whatever. Whatever it is that makes Alien. Such a compelling property to come back to. Is on full, full, full display. Just unflinching horror, surgical kind of gore. Griblies, existential fears about the, you know, the nature of the soul. Tech, corporate encroachment into daily life. Family, loneliness, the passage of time, bereavement. It's all there. [01:43:32] Speaker B: Nice. [01:43:32] Speaker A: It's masterful. Such a great show. [01:43:36] Speaker B: Beautiful. [01:43:37] Speaker A: Yeah, man. [01:43:39] Speaker B: Sorry. I went to talk and then my voice just like. [01:43:41] Speaker A: It's giving up, isn't it? [01:43:43] Speaker B: It's giving up, you know? But it worked out great. So it lasted this long for me. [01:43:49] Speaker A: Listen, I'm gonna ask you a question, listeners. [01:43:52] Speaker B: Ooh. [01:43:53] Speaker A: Do you want to come and see us do this live? [01:43:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:57] Speaker A: Do you wanna come and see us do this for real? Yeah. Do you want to come and see us do this in London next year? [01:44:03] Speaker B: Yay. [01:44:04] Speaker A: I think you do. I'm fucking sure you do. I don't know where you're listening to this right now, but make plans, make plans. Tell your family, book, travel, think about hotels for the 8th of August, 2028. 8. Because that's when it's happening. Joag UK. Joag London, 8th of August, 2020 6. Write it the fuck down. Write it in your own blood. Make a fucking circle of salt around you. Say it six times in a mirror. 8th of August 26th. 8th of August 26th. 8th of August 26th. Will yourself there. Manifest it. Imagine it. Conjure it from the universe, because we're gonna see you there, so stay spooky.