Ep. 224: going postal

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Do you remember back in the 90s when, like, every sitcom would describe someone losing their mind as going postal? [00:00:14] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely, I do. [00:00:16] Speaker A: Yeah. It was kind of everywhere. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a. A term I would often use. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. [00:00:22] Speaker B: With a guy I was living with at the time. Yeah, completely. There was a. I can't remember what system it was on, but there was even a video game. [00:00:34] Speaker A: Yes, yes, there was a video game called Postal. Yes, absolutely, yes. And you don't really. Yeah, you don't really hear it as much anymore, I don't think, but it was everywhere at the time. The phrase was used in the teen movie Clueless. Like you said, there was a video game called Postal. There's a scene in Seinfeld which I've actually linked in the blog, and in the description where the character Newman reveals himself to be a postal worker, to which George responds by asking, aren't those the guys who go crazy and shoot everyone? And Newman validates this, becoming increasingly unhinged as he answers. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Newman was the guy from Jurassic Park. [00:01:16] Speaker A: That's the one, yeah. Dennis Nedry. There's a book by Terry Pratchett called Going Postal. There's a Bart Simpson comic called Going Postal that has nothing to do with the actual phenomenon and is just about Milhouse getting stuck in a mailbox. There's an online shipping hub called Goin Postal, which seems especially in poor taste to me, and there are certainly countless other references that made this so common a phrase. Even the BBC pointed out its ubiquity in the uk, despite referring to US. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Events, really found its way into the mainstream. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Really did. And I do remember at one point asking my dad or someone like that, like, what does that even mean? And then having it explained really flippantly like, postal workers go crazy and shoot up post offices. Okay, cool. No further questions, I guess. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Well, look, I mean, not for the first time, I am delighted that we don't have ready access to firearms over here. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Well, sure, yeah. [00:02:23] Speaker B: You know, the. The mess that the UK Postal Service is in right now and the, you know, the poverty and depression and just absolute personal havoc that the IT issue wreaked on post office managers, you know, over the last decade or two. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:02:46] Speaker B: You know, it's. It's. Were we. Were we able to walk into ASDA and get a heater? I dare say we could have contributed to that ourselves. [00:02:55] Speaker A: I'm honestly kind of glad you mentioned this because I was actually thinking about this in the shower before recording here. I was like, just thinking about the fact, like, you know, it's Kind of a meme at this point that it's like anytime an American criticizes something about British culture, they'll be like, hey, will you guys shoot people? And it's like the immediate, like, end of discussion is just like, oh, yeah, well, guns. And it's like that shuts it down. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Guns and healthcare are the two that. [00:03:23] Speaker A: I reach for, which, like, healthcare, fine. Like, I'll give you that. But the thing about the guns thing that I was thinking about while I was in the shower was like, if you had them, the same thing would happen. It's not like a moral success that you can't shoot people because you don't have a gun. If you had guns, people would shoot people. You know the. [00:03:48] Speaker B: I think the angle, at least, were I to. To pull that one out my pocket in a heated exchange. For me, it isn't that we don't have them. It's that we immediately fucking. We don't have them because of what they can do because of dumb blame, you know, I mean, after dumb blame, we fucking. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Which is exactly what I'm talking about. Like, the reason it happened is because someone shot a bunch of people. Right. Like, that's why. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Yeah. But we then immediately moved to ensure that that could not happen anymore. [00:04:15] Speaker A: And so it's a valid structural criticism. It's not a valid retort to like, hey, mushy peas are gross, you know, or like, you guys don't like trans people. Oh, yeah, well, you have guns, you know, like, okay, yes, we, like, there are shootings here, but you would shoot people too if you had guns. It is not like a huge moral success that your government was better at banning than. Than ours was when, like, your people would do the same thing. [00:04:44] Speaker B: I think it is, though. [00:04:46] Speaker A: I don't. [00:04:46] Speaker B: I don't truly is, though. [00:04:48] Speaker A: I, I think, I mean, structurally. Structurally, yes, that's better. Don't get me wrong. I just don't think that, like, the British people are so pacifistic that as a society, you wouldn't shoot anybody if you had guns. [00:05:05] Speaker B: Yeah. But with, you know, what you. What. What we weren't ever is in the grip of the fucking, you know, the, the gun lobbies. The gun. The gun. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Sure. Yes, that's absolutely true. I think now you would be, I think, if it were available to you, given the fact that, like, the British public and government have moved so far. Right. If you had the NRA. [00:05:34] Speaker B: I don't. I don't believe so. [00:05:36] Speaker A: I 100 think so. I don't think because Brits commit violence too they just use different. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Oh, listen, we have. Listen, we have knife crime. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah, you have knife crime like crazy. Like, my point is not that, like, oh, we're the same or whatever. Like, because structurally, yeah, our gun lobby is a problem or whatever. I just think whenever, like, Brits turn that to use, like, every, like, on everything. It's like, like you said, your structures in the postal service are trash and would lead people to committing mass acts of violence if they had access to the means to do so. People are just as violent. It's not a valid argument for, like, everything. You know, like, anything that you can criticize about the Brits while Americans shoot each other. [00:06:25] Speaker B: I think, okay, rather than Americans shoot each other, I. I think the argument is more, Americans shoot each other weakly and do nothing about it. I think that's more. [00:06:35] Speaker A: We're talking about different things here. That's the thing. It's like, you're talking about a rather. [00:06:39] Speaker B: Disposition of its citizens. I think it's more. [00:06:42] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, I'm. I'm not talking about, like, oh, which again, Britain has plenty of terrible policies about shit too. But, like, my point is the idea that you shut down any debate about anything by going, well, Americans kill each other with guns. Like, that's not a valid. Yeah, like, that's not like, okay, Brits still suck at various things, too. We just also have guns. Like, you know. [00:07:10] Speaker B: Well, we agree. [00:07:12] Speaker A: Yeah, this is my. You know, I've said this before, and this is obviously derailing a little bit, but one of the things that, like, I am always. There are people who I follow on, like, blue sky and stuff who criticize, like, the, like, Brits who criticize the American government and structures and stuff like that all the time that I'm like, I'm on board. Everything you're saying is 100% correct. And then there's some people who are just smug Brits just constantly, like, it's like the way that you approach this, where it's just kind of like, we're better. That is like, shut the fuck up. You're the exact same as us. We came from you. We're the same thing. We just have slightly different rules. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Less. Okay, broadly, in the interests of recording a podcast where we get along. Broadly, I'll agree. But I think there's. I think the criticism is valid. [00:08:02] Speaker A: That's what I just said. I said the criticism. [00:08:04] Speaker B: No, no, from. From this side of the pond. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I just said. Like, I follow a whole bunch of critics. [00:08:08] Speaker B: It's a disposition of your people that that, you know, that I'm swiping at. It's the. What's the word I'm looking for? The. The inability of your authorities to change the situation. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Exactly. It's like the people in charge don't care. You're also going through similar things over there where your labor is indistinguishable from your Tories and things like that. [00:08:32] Speaker B: Also true. And that's fucking backfired. I'll tell you this. Labor's creeping. Not even creeping, actually. Labour's fucking. Fucking throwing themselves towards the right. Feels as though it's backfired, man. The. The. It. There's a way bigger than zero chance that, you know, we're about three or four years away from something truly, truly ghastly happening over here. [00:09:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Like, even more ghastly than. Than anything that has come before. It is very, very plausible that our next government will be awful. Like, awful, awful, awful. [00:09:11] Speaker A: This is. Yeah, and this is exactly what I'm sort of pointing at, right? Is like the criticisms structurally of the US Government are fully valid. It's the acting like somehow the human beings in each country are, like, hugely separate in morality. And you know what we are. Like, that is. Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. I was like, I know you and I agree on this. Like, if we really get to the root of this, we both agree on this. And, like, where you're aiming with this is the same thing. So obviously this is a little bit of a derail, but it. It comes back around here nonetheless. Like, my point being, you know, what you were sort of aiming at here? Like, this structure of the postal service we will get to and why the hook this happened at this time. So like I said, I was asking about, like, you know, what is this about? And all I kind of got was like, postal service workers shoot people. And it became like this weird truism, like postal workers are just unhinged, I guess. Right. Like, that was kind of. Yeah. Like, it was the narrative around this whole thing. And I hadn't really given it much thought in the past several decades until a few months ago when the headline appeared in my daily email from our town's newspaper, the Montclair Local, which is. [00:10:28] Speaker B: Called the Montclair Local, of course. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Local. It's very. It's the local shout out to all. [00:10:33] Speaker B: Of the good hacks at the Montclair Local fighting the fucking good fight on the edges of the social collapse that is Montclair. [00:10:43] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Out there drinking their bourbon. They drink bourbon at their desks. Sure, like maybe a camel light sticking. [00:10:52] Speaker A: Out of their mouth. Yeah, there you go. I like that. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Trench coats, brown envelopes full of cash. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Mid Atlantic accents. Dames, dames, dames. Broads. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Broads. Yeah, that's right. Saxophone smoky bars. The Montclair Deep Shadow Press. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Yes, deep state. So this headline read, mass shooting at Montclair post office remembered. 30 years later. And the article mentioned that the incident had been part of a spate of such killings that had popularized the phrase going postal. So naturally, I was jotting this down for future Joe agging, because I feel like, of course, there's gotta be a lot more to this story than just postal workers be crazy. And I needed to know what that story is. So, Marco, would you like to hear the super dark origins of a phrase that became a 90s punchline? [00:11:54] Speaker B: You know that I would. Again, so much seems to happen in your town. [00:11:59] Speaker A: I know, right? It is kind of crazy. [00:12:03] Speaker B: The most fucking, you know, Eerie, Indiana, Twin Peaks, ass place. [00:12:08] Speaker A: Seriously. While being like. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Because I've been weird, I've been around it, and it seems perfectly pleasant. [00:12:12] Speaker A: You would never guess on a surface level. And then there's just tons of shit happening here weirdly in this story. And I didn't even totally mention it. One of them I mentioned, but, like, several of these shootings happened in places where I lived. There's like, one here. There's one in Goleta where I lived in grad school. There's one in Dana Point where my boyfriend lived when I was in college. Like, I was like, geez Louise, these things are following me around. But let's get into it. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:12:42] Speaker A: As it turns out, between the 1970s and 90s, shootings committed by disgruntled postal workers killed more than 40 people in the United States. Among the first was an incident in Los Angeles In August of 1970, when postal clerk Alfred Kellam showed up to work drunk and was sent home by his supervisor, Harry Cendrow. Five hours later, Kellum returned to the post office, still intoxicated, and shot his boss in the back three times as he ran for help. It was tragic, obviously, but not necessarily a sign of some larger issue. Men being drunk and violent is a tale as old as time. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Uh, I. This. I. I have no respect for somebody who shoots someone in the back. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, exactly. [00:13:31] Speaker B: If you are gonna go to your place of work locked and loaded and ready to commit murder, fucking do it to someone's face, for fuck's sake. What are you, a coward? [00:13:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:41] Speaker B: I mean, he Was drunk. [00:13:42] Speaker A: So you know, there you go. [00:13:44] Speaker B: But murdering your co workers is bad enough, but. [00:13:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Shooting them in the back when they're running away. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Be a hero about it. But yeah, the five years after this one, in March of 1975, postal worker Floyd Davidson bought brought a pistol into Gadson, Alabama postmaster James Ford's office and shot him twice in the head before shooting postal Tour Superintendent Eldred McDonald through the hand. The bullet passed through his hand and into his chest and he died two hours later in the hospital. I guess that's technically shooting him in the chest is just like, by like a roundabout way. [00:14:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Through the hand. Hand and chest. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Hand and chest. Yes, according to. Oh, go ahead. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Sorry, I, again, sorry to derail but I, I have seen, there are some, I've seen some gnarly ass gore videos of people getting their hands shot off. Yeah, fuck me. One is etched, etched into my brain. There's, it's, it's, I, I don't think it's an English speaking video, but I think it's, it's maybe Eastern European military. There's a guy, a soldier, and he's leaning, he's using, he's using his rifle almost as a, as a, as a cane. He's leaning on his rifle with the foot, both of his hands and it goes off and just blows both of his hands off. [00:15:13] Speaker A: No one to blame but yourself for that too. [00:15:16] Speaker B: You can you see his face as he lifts his one hand up and realizes where he's done and then reaches for his other hand with his other hand. [00:15:24] Speaker A: Oh no, not that one too. [00:15:26] Speaker B: No, both of his fucking hand. Just fingers everywhere. Wild. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Oh, buddy. Yeah. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Hand trollers. [00:15:33] Speaker A: Don't lean on your guns, folks. [00:15:35] Speaker B: Nah, don't do it. [00:15:35] Speaker A: Don't do it. This is a message for the Americans in the audience. Don't lean on your guns. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a bad idea. Idiots. From a Brit. [00:15:49] Speaker A: Another five years later, in May of 1980, a retired postal worker named Henry Gossie went on a murder suicide rampage, killing four of his neighbors and then himself. While this didn't take place in a postal office, there's an interesting detail here. As it turns out, postal working postal workers packing had become an institutional thing. According to the Humboldt California Times Standard, in 1961 the Office of the U.S. postmaster General issued a directive mandating that all post offices and key postal personnel were to receive small firearms training and a loaded.38 caliber Colt revolver. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Shut up. [00:16:35] Speaker A: I kid you fucking not. There had been an increase in robberies and holdups of mail carriers in cities across the country with some mail carriers being brutally assaulted while on their routes. And the Postmaster General was like, well then we fucking arm the postal workers so no one fucks with them. Incredible, right? It's so insane all you're doing. [00:17:01] Speaker B: You are disproving your own thesis here. [00:17:04] Speaker A: No, the. This is not my thesis. My thesis is that Brits are not morally superior because their government was better at getting rid of guns. [00:17:16] Speaker B: We aren't. We aren't solving knife crime by giving. [00:17:18] Speaker A: Knives to people Again, you're talking about your government. That's not what I'm talking about. [00:17:25] Speaker B: Okay. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So where AM I? On October 19, 1961, retired Marine and humble postal worker Henry Gossie was chosen for this training because he was, quote, highly adept not only with firearms, but with some of the hand to hand rough stuff that might come in handy should he be accosted by a would be thief. While it doesn't appear that he ever had occasion to use the gun on the job, 19 years later he used one in that grim murder suicide. [00:18:04] Speaker B: Yikes. [00:18:05] Speaker A: Yep. [00:18:06] Speaker B: Did I ever tell you? What? The postman with the same name as me? [00:18:09] Speaker A: I don't think so. Oh, wait, I think you did. But remind me, I feel like we did have a conversation about this. [00:18:15] Speaker B: This was a few Christmases ago. I think this was when we lived in Bicester and rat a tat tat. Knock at the door. It's the postie. Oh, I got a letter from Mark Lewis. That's me. Hey, we got the same name. I'm Mark Lewis as well. I'm like, hey, all right then, mate, thanks. Off he goes. The next day I get another package rat attack and it's a different postman. And he looks at the envelope, looks at me, you're Mark Lewis. I go, yeah. He goes, you know what? You got the same name as the worst postie in the world. [00:18:47] Speaker A: No. [00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gives me the letter and off he goes. [00:18:52] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:18:53] Speaker B: That's what he says. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Did you ever see Mark Lewis again? [00:18:56] Speaker B: I did not. [00:18:58] Speaker A: Hey, your coworker's talking shit about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Must have sucked. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Incredible. I love that you definitely didn't tell me that story before. So, yeah, this whole thing is very interesting to me because after this postal murder, we see a pickup in the rates of these murders, but also now we know this is way. [00:19:18] Speaker B: All of these are way earlier than I thought they would be. I don't recall going postal, entering the lexicon. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Well, so keep in mind, very late 90s and I will address when that comes to be so. But these are like fairly spread apart at this point. Right. We got like 1970, 1975. Right. Like these are. It's not a thing yet. Right. But I thought this detail was interesting because of that, like all these people in these post offices are being trained and given guns. And, you know, as we've discussed, guns are literally a part of the culture of the US and now of the Postal service itself. Right. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Okay. Day one. Here's your letters, this is the keys to your van, and here's your gun. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Here's your. Yeah, here's your pistol. Okay. So every single post office in the U.S. no matter how small, had someone with a government issued.38 who'd been trained to use it. Clearly a terrible idea. And from what I tried to figure out, like, how long this lasted, and I couldn't find like a distinct end. There was a law passed in the early 70s, like 1972 or something like that, that designated post offices, as I think they're called safe zones or something like that. And so you cannot concealed carry a weapon at a post office. But I was very unclear. Nothing I read specified that about like, whether that ended this program or if that was. If that didn't apply to those people who were trained to carry them in the post office. And then it was 2024 that a law went into effect banning guns from post offices. That has like, been contested since then, obviously by second amendment freaks and whatnot, saying that's unconstitutional. So, yeah, not sure when postal workers stopped carrying guns. I don't think they carry them anymore. But I didn't see anything that was like, here is explicitly the end of this practice. But if you're figuring, you know, let's say the. The earliest this ends is like 1972, when that safe space law goes into effect, that you've still got basically anyone who worked for the Postal Service before this potentially trained to use guns by the Postal Service and given a gun by the Postal Service. So that's going to have repercussions for decades. [00:21:58] Speaker B: I would also ask, you know, is. Is the. Would the repealing of that law kind of be retroactive to those who already. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Had them, or is it Right, like, exactly. Like, are people grandfathered in? Like, I have no idea. It's very interesting to try to read up on these postal murders because especially in the earlier days of them, there's like scant details and I will get to that. But just interesting little note that for a while there, every post office in The United States would have had someone who was packing crazy. So the same year as that last one, 1980. In November, New Orleans postal worker Curtis Collins entered a federal building with a high powered rifle and shot the security guard and his supervisor from the post office, a woman named Adrian Wharton. Wharton did not survive, and it turned out that Collins had received a letter of reprimand from her and slashed her tires two days earlier. Wharton had worked for the post office for 15 years and was said to be a good supervisor. Collins was a new worker and apparently they'd been in conflict pretty much from the start. According to an appeal filed by his lawyers in 1982, Collins believed that Wharton had been responsible for lowering his rating for an unexcused absence from work and thought he'd likely lose his job, which was in a probationary period as a result. [00:23:26] Speaker B: See, if I lived over there, man, I'd be fucking terrified of saying shit to anyone. I really would. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting. I've said before, like, that's my thing with movie theaters, right? Is like, I don't, I try not to shush people in movie theaters because people shoot people in movie theaters. Like not often, but like, often enough. You know, you do hear stories of like people getting into altercations and someone getting shot because someone shushed them or something like that. [00:23:57] Speaker B: Because, you know, I do, I, I shush in movie theaters. I will, I will, you know, I won't just kind of tut if somebody cut, you know, cuts in a queue in front of me, right. I'm, I'll, you know, I'll speak up. [00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:09] Speaker B: And I would not do that. [00:24:12] Speaker A: Yeah. It does change the way you interact with the world, you know. Like, I think like to a degree, I'm still pretty assertive person. You know, I'll hit a car on the hood if they don't stop for me in the crosswalks and things like that. You know, like I, I will speak up for myself or whatever, but I think you're always doing like a degree of calculation, you know, and, and being like formerly teaching in classrooms and stuff like that. It's certainly a thing you have to think about when like I would have like conservative students who would just leave my class in the middle because they didn't like, was being taught. It's like, are they going to come back and like shoot everybody? You know, like what? There was one of my colleagues had a student who was like scrolling through a gun buying website in class and his like classmates came and like told her, like, it's kind of making us uncomfortable that he's sitting here, like, looking for guns in the classroom, you know, so it certainly. Yeah, it absolutely changes the way you move through the world. [00:25:14] Speaker B: You can buy guns online. Yeah, you can buy. Buy a gun online, get a gun sent to your house. [00:25:19] Speaker A: I don't. I don't know. I have no idea. I've never tried, so I'm not sure. I feel like you're not supposed to be. I think you're supposed to have to go do it in person. But I don't know. I mean, you can 3D print guns now, so I have no idea what the rules are. [00:25:32] Speaker B: It just opens up. Opens up the. You know, the prospect to me that you could go online, buy a gun, get the gun sent to you, which would then be delivered. The gun would be delivered to you by a guy with a gun. With giving you. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Giving you your gun. Yeah, I don't think you can buy one. [00:25:49] Speaker B: Americans. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, like, because that's the thing. Whenever you hear the stories of people who, like, do shoot up places, they did physically go to a place and buy a gun. [00:26:00] Speaker B: Yes. Or like a gun show. Like a gun sale gun. Yeah, like gun out of a car boot in the fucking car park of a gun show. That kind of thing. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. There's plenty of weird little loopholes and stuff like that, but I think that's because you can't. You can't just buy them online. But I've never tried, so. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Fucking gun show around here. [00:26:17] Speaker A: Oh, well, that's the only gun show I want to take it to, so. Right then. So he has killed Wharton for thinking that. I mean, thinking that he's potentially about to get fired, which is, like, not a great solution to when you think you're gonna get fired. You know, if he kills somebody, you're definitely gonna get fired. [00:26:41] Speaker B: But yeah, at least. [00:26:43] Speaker A: At least. In 1983, there were two more postal shootings in August. Perry Smith, who had just recently resigned from the postal service after 25 years of employment, returned to his former workplace with a shotgun and fired on four people, injuring two employees and a police officer and killing the postmaster. Postmasters do not fare well in these stories. A lot of dead postmasters in these. Witnesses said that he kicked down a door to get to the postmaster and then said to him, I told you, you son of a bitch, I'd get even before shooting him. What exactly he was getting even. 4. Unclear, but his ARG. His lawyers argued he was suffering from persecutory delusion. That led him to believe he was in some way being persecuted by this guy when he was not. In December, James Howard Brooks, who'd apparently been in a long running dispute with his supervisors at the Anniston, alabama, post office, came into his workplace and shot the postmaster, killing him. He wounded another supervisor, and these incidents persisted throughout the 80s. In March 1985, Steven Brownlee, a postal service worker of 12 years, killed two employees and wounded another in the mail sorting area of the made atlanta post office where he worked. Two months later, letter carrier David Perez brought a rifle to a New york city post office and turned it on supervisor George grady When another postal clerk intervened. They were shot and injured, and Perez then held Grady hostage for my dog is barking. Hostage for two hours before surrendering, thankfully, without killing anyone. Now, in a country riddled with gun violence, most of these shootings were basically footnotes. There aren't a ton of details anywhere about the killers or the things that led up to these murders. In August of 1985, however, a postal shooting too big to go unnoticed occurred in Edmond, oklahoma. [00:28:48] Speaker B: When was this? [00:28:50] Speaker A: August of 1985. A month before I was born. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Hey. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Around 6:45 in the morning, mail carrier Patrick Henry Cheryl arrived at his place of employment equipped with a mail pouch, carrying at least three pistols. And according to the new York Times, he began firing upon his co workers without a word. This was a large and busy post office. It's not like the one that I mail my joag mailers from down the street where they're filming three people working in it. Just one big room. There were around 100 workers there sorting mail and prepping deliveries for the day. And as witness Larry Vercelli put it, quote, he was in the center of the room with two.45s blazing away. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Two. Like cable wielding. Yes. John woo style. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Exactly. And at this point, you're like just shooting fish in a barrel, basically. So he managed to murder 14 of the employees before turning the gun on himself. During the shooting spree, Cheryl had reloaded at least once, and some of those who survived had played dead, lying on top of other bodies as they awaited the police. Pretty horrifying scene. Apparently, Cheryl, who had worked the Edmond post office for a year and a half, was afraid of losing his job after receiving poor performance reviews and had twice called union officials early in the week with demands to be transferred to the Oklahoma city post office. It was with this shooting that cracks in the postal service began to show. It began to come out that there was considerable tension between mail carriers and management. And that the workers were under extreme pressure to the point of harassment to increase their productivity. The local union's recording secretary told the Times. A few of us were talking about it a few weeks ago when someone said that one of these days, someone is going to go off the nut and shoot somebody. This is not an isolated incident. There have been other confrontations. Most people can let off steam and then walk away. This time, it was taken to the ultimate further. The president of the national association of Letter Carriers said that the union has received an unusually high number of complaints about management in the Oklahoma City area, including Edmonds, and that those complaints involved verbal abuse, including threats of discipline and dismissal. Naturally, the PR guy for the Postal Service called the remarks bordering the disgraceful and irresponsible in a time of tragedy. Which is, like, one of the things I kind of, like, I respect about these guys is, like, there will be more of these that I talk about. But, like, the fact that when this happened, they were like, FYI, the problem is the post office. Like, not victim blaming here is terrible, but also the problem is the post office, you know? [00:31:45] Speaker B: Yes, of course. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Like, because the thing to do would normally be to like, oh, let's not politicize it now, or whatever, right? [00:31:51] Speaker B: And these guys, now is not the time. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that was not the time. Which is what the PR guy is trying to say. And they're like, no, I think when someone murders 14 people, it's time to talk about it, maybe. So, like Gossie before him, Cheryl had been in the Marines, a weapons expert who'd claimed in his postal service application to have served in Vietnam. Although records show his service as having taken place in the U.S. throughout his enlistment, the tragedy now had taken a far higher number of victims than any of those before and brought to light some of the institutional issues within the post office. While I don't think anyone, even those union reps, were like, yeah, it's good he did what he did. They understood that incredible pressure was leading someone to inevitably go off, which is saying a lot, right? Like, probably a lot of listeners to this podcast have worked really shitty jobs in various areas with awful bosses. But you've probably never thought, man, one day someone is going to come in here and do a whole murder. You know, like, it's a. You know, someone might get mad and, like, spit in someone's milkshake or something. But, like, things have to be so deeply bad for folks to go, yeah, we kind of thought this was gonna happen. It's not great. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. I can't you know, the more I think about it as I just was, I cannot disagree that were ready and you know, culturally access to guns was as simple as it is over here. I, you know, I don't for a second think that the situation would be any different. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:29] Speaker B: You know. [00:33:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Like that's literally my point. Yeah, it's just the, the availability again, props that you know, that was how the UK government responded. But I think like it's worth noting that it's like, it's really, you know, when people are driven to like wits end or whatever or just are like ragey and shit like that. Like they do shitty things and what's available to them makes a difference, you know, in how they respond. So in this case, more postal shootings dotted the 80s landscape. A murder suicide in Chelsea, Mass in June of 88. Three wounded in a hostage situation in New Orleans in December of the same year. A suicide by a letter carrier in the office in March of 89. Two killed in a suicide in Escondido, California in 89. A quadruple murder and hostage situation the next town over from me in Ridgewood in New Jersey in 1991. In which first the assailant murdered his former supervisor with a samurai sword before shooting her boyfriend to death. Then going to the post office and killing two employees and throwing a handmade bomb at police officers. All of this he said under the instruction of a ninja spirit that told him to commit the murders. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Well, you can't blame that in the post office. [00:34:48] Speaker A: I blame it on the ninja spirits, obviously. [00:34:50] Speaker B: Well, yeah, exactly. Don't blame it on the posties. [00:34:55] Speaker A: Blame it on the ninjas. So the incidents go on and on. Every few months the British government would. [00:35:05] Speaker B: Abandon into spirits the day after, just immediately. [00:35:08] Speaker A: Well, didn't you. Aren't samurai swords now banned in Britain? Isn't that like a thing? [00:35:15] Speaker B: I don't know about swords, but a very particular type of knife has been outlawed lately which is. Which is popular with knife crime committing children. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Maybe it was just like sensationalist framing and something, but I could have sworn that I read like samurai swords are now like what was the tweet from? From your prime minister or whatever about? Like we're really getting things done. We've banned this thing and it was something very. [00:35:42] Speaker B: I think you might be talking about zombie knives. [00:35:44] Speaker A: No, it wasn't zombie knives. I've never heard of his. No, wait, look at, I'm like right. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Here looking@katana mart.co.uk swordsforsale.co.uk. [00:35:56] Speaker A: But what's the. What was the tweet? [00:35:59] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:36:00] Speaker A: They said ninja swords will be banned by this summer. When we promise action, we take it. [00:36:07] Speaker B: Ninja swords. [00:36:10] Speaker A: Oh, it starts. I didn't even read the whole thing. Starmer says, confirmed, ninja swords will be banned by this summer. When we promise action, we take it. So I guess I interpreted ninja sword as samurai sword. I don't know what a ninja sword is otherwise, but great job. It's really tackling the issues. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Curved swords with a blade length of 50 cm or more have been banned since 2008. Over here. [00:36:44] Speaker A: I don't know how big that is, but sounds big. So I don't know. I don't know what, how the ninja swords were getting around that band, but apparently curved blade. Oh, the curve. Okay. That's the. That's the issue. Okay. So then comes. Oh. So every few months, like I said, every few months into the early 90s, postal workers murdering, hostage taking, suiciding. And then comes May 6, 1993, the day that brought the term going postal right up into the American zeitgeist. The day two separate postal shootings occurred halfway across the country from each other. The first came at around 8:45am in Dearborn, Michigan. Postal mechanic Larry Jason, who had worked for the Postal Service for over two decades, entered the postal garage with a shotgun and pistol and killed postal mechanic Gary Montes, wounding two other workers before killing himself four hours later. In Dana Point, California, home of my college boyfriend, as I mentioned before, letter carrier Mark Hilbin killed his mother and her dog before barging into the post office and killing Charles Barbagallo and wounding three other colleagues. In December of that year, an article in the St. Petersburg Petersburg Times said, quote the Sorry, I feel like I posted the wrong part of this. 35 people have been killed in 11 post office shootings since 1983. The symposium was sponsored by the US Postal Service, which has seen so many outbursts that in some circles. Some circles, excessive stress is known as going postal. [00:38:26] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:26] Speaker A: And that's the first time that we see it, huh? It was March 21, 1995, when Montclair was hit by the postal murder curse. The culprit in the case was former postal worker Christopher Green, who decided to rob the post office where he'd previously worked. What unfolded is horrifying. Where most of these shootings involved someone coming in and basically just unleashing a hail of bullets that killed people immediately, this was more grim and personal. Having managed to steal $5,000, which is what he'd came for. Rather than just leaving, Green had his former colleagues lie down on the floor, telling them that he wouldn't hurt them. And then he stood over each one and pumped what are known as cop killer bullets into each of their heads and necks, one by one, each having to listen and wait for their turn. These were guys he knew. Like, two of the guys were guys that worked in the post office and two were customers, but he just murdered them just like that, slowly, methodically, one by one, one by one. Not from a distance. Stood over them and filled them each with bullets made to do as much damage as possible to the human body. Only one survived miraculously, despite having been shot twice in the head. What? Yeah, right. Execution style. Shot twice. And somehow he survived. And I think he, like, yeah, I think he was okay. I read several articles and, like, none mentioned, like, and then he was paralyzed for life or anything like that. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he walked it off, apparently, which is, you know, wonderful. But the, like, stories of, like, the people whose, like, you know, dads and partners and whatnot died in this are, like, really horrific. Because, like, the thing about all these stories being in, like, the 70s, 80s, 90s is, like, there's no text message. Nobody's like, hey, you, did you see this is happening? Like, come down to the post office or something like that. Like, you find out, like, one woman was heard that there had been a shooting, and she, like, went about her day, and then when she was watching the evening news, noticed her father's car parked outside of the post office. And that was how she realized that her dad had been inside and was one of the people who'd been killed. Like, just awful. Yeah, no one. No one can tell you. You know, it's just. Yeah, the stories are heartbreaking. And these incidents, as I mentioned, became punchlines despite not being especially funny. [00:41:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly where my mind just went. I mean, heartbreaking and life ruining, Right? [00:41:15] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:41:16] Speaker B: You're ripping the fucking guts out of your community. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Right? Precisely. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Within five years. It's a fucking Amiga computer game. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Right, exactly that. Exactly. And it was sort of framed as if people who choose to become postal workers are particularly unhinged and prone to violence. But as in the case of the Edmond tragedy that took 14 lives, people who actually worked for the Postal Service and related unions were like, it makes perfect sense that this keeps happening. This job sucks. One worker was quoted after one postal massacre as saying, quote, when I heard there was a shooter, in my mind, it could have been anyone. I understand why he did it. This is huge. Yikes. According to all that's interesting, many postal workers described those in management positions as authoritarian. But they stayed in the jobs because the postal service offers good pay and benefits to folks that don't have a trade skill or a degree. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Health care. [00:42:15] Speaker A: Hello healthcare. Yeah, when you are in a country with no health care, you'll put up with a lot of shit in order to get some benefits. And this is pretty unheard of to not have to have a college degree or any form of skill. Skill. They will train you. Anyone can be a postal worker. So folks endured a lot of bullshit knowing they had pretty much zero other options. In the wake of the same day shootings in Michigan and California, psychologists told the NYT that postal work today is a treadmill of angry monotony with labor management hostility making many post offices minefields of carefully nurtured grievances. On top of this, Postmaster General Marvin Runyon noted that the militaristic tradition of the post office needed to be dismantled as it could feed the anger of those predisposed to vent hostility. 10% of the postal workforce in the 80s had been specifically hired because they were disabled veterans. And a hostile and grueling work environment is probably not a great place place for such folks. Like I said, at least two of those killings were carried out by former Marines and the Michigan murders were carried out by a guy who was ex army. American Postal Workers Union spokesman Tom Fahey said, quote, you have an extremely high stress, machine paced work environment managed by supervisors who are doctrinaire quasi military and breathe down workers necks saying do it my way. You are working in a system with no accountability built into it for managers. So managers basically across the board were tormenting the people that worked for the post office under this sort of like military style way of ruling that was just understood in the US Postal Service. Like this is the hierarchy, this is how this works. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Not expecting you to know the answer to this, but is the Postal Service a big employer for ex vets, for ex military? [00:44:20] Speaker A: Well, at this point it was for sure. Like I said, 10%. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Of them were. I don't, I'm not sure if that's still the case, but certainly there was some program at this time where they were actively intentionally hiring ex vets to, or I guess vets. You're not an ex vet. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Hiring vets to, to work for them. So all that said, in kind of a horrifying defense, postal worker homicides actually weren't even an especially high proportion of workplace homicides. At the time. According to crime library, between 1992 and 1998, postal employees committed 16 of over 6,700 workplace homicides, making their numbers considerably lower than other workplaces. Can you guess what type of workplace was particularly conducive to murder? Marco? [00:45:14] Speaker B: Post offices. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Were you just, like, not listening to what I just said? [00:45:20] Speaker B: No, I absolutely was. Ask me again. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Okay, so I just said that post offices did not make up a significant portion of workplace homicides. So what do you think led workplace homicides? [00:45:37] Speaker B: Restaurants. [00:45:39] Speaker A: I mean, you're on the right track. It's retail. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:45:42] Speaker A: I don't think any. [00:45:43] Speaker B: In my. In my. In my head, I've. Aside from postal workers, I've got this image of kind of short order cooks. [00:45:53] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Being quite like, volunteer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:45:57] Speaker A: That's understandable. Yeah. And psychologist Jerry Rubenstein explained that it's the public nature of the job that puts postal worker homicides on front pages compared to other jobs. So, you know, great news. Postal workers weren't exceptionally murderous. All American workers are stressed out and might do homicides. So that's cool. But I did look it up. And according to the cdc, workplace homicides have drastically reduced over the years. [00:46:24] Speaker B: I was hoping you were going to say reduced. [00:46:25] Speaker A: Yeah. With 392 reported in total in 2020. But still with sales and service occupations like restaurants at the top of the list. So there you go. That's the terrible origins of a phrase that for some reason people found really funny for like a decade. [00:46:48] Speaker B: And listen, speaking from a personal perspective, I was there, and it was funny to say that. [00:46:55] Speaker A: I'm gonna bet you did not have all of this. Context. [00:46:59] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. Context. I quite enjoy that. One of the events that propelled that phrase into the mainstream is from a place you know intimately. [00:47:11] Speaker A: You know, look at that. It's great. You know, I went to a school with one of the early school shootings, Then another school with one of the most famous school shootings. And in the town where the big instant of going postal just really at the center of culture. [00:47:27] Speaker B: Yes. And if I didn't know you as well as I did, it might lead me to ask questions. Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:47:36] Speaker A: Yes, please do. [00:47:38] Speaker B: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:47:41] Speaker A: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:47:45] Speaker B: The way I whispered the word sex. Can't Hannibal receiving. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Worst comes to worst. Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:47:52] Speaker B: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking. I'm gonna let it. [00:47:58] Speaker A: You know how I feel about that, Mark? [00:48:00] Speaker B: I think you feel great about it. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Remember early on I have a clip of it somewhere. Early on, just you and I having a discussion and you asking me, do you have a gun? [00:48:16] Speaker B: Well, listen, it, you know, I also, I also remember that conversation and I seem to record being surprised at how not pro gun but not anti gun. You worry. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Because you know, you're on paper, you strike as someone who would be very right gun prohibition, pro gun prohibition. And you certainly didn't come across that way in time. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, it's a. It would be make for an interesting thing to like dive into more. But I think one of the things that like we discussed at that early time five years ago in this conversation or whatever was kind of like who do gun bans affect? And that they are disproportionately enforced upon the marginalized and things like that so that they become the unarmed populace. Well, you know, all the Nazis have guns essentially. And so, you know, it's not necessarily I'm pro gun, like you said, it's more of a. Like when you think about how policy implemented is implemented in the United States, there are. [00:49:33] Speaker B: It's all. [00:49:34] Speaker A: Yeah, of course, big problems as to who then ends up with access to the guns and who doesn't. [00:49:41] Speaker B: If it could be. And I, I don't for a second even claim to imagine how that this would work, but if it could be institute, if, if somebody could click their fingers and all guns would be outlawed and made, you know, they all just. [00:49:59] Speaker A: Turned into like rubbery. [00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. That you'd be fine with. [00:50:04] Speaker A: Yeah, like ultimately, you know, sure there's, there's like uses of people hunting and things like that, but like the people that I care about doing that, like indigenous folks and stuff, have always had other ways of hunting besides shooting shit. So yeah, if, if all guns disappeared, I wouldn't be like, oh no. Like that. I think that's a good way of putting it. It's not like a. Yeah, I'm not invested in the existence or the right to have guns. It's more of a. Just thinking about on a practical level how our country works. That is why I'm not like a vehemently anti gun person. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Okay, glad for the clarification. [00:50:47] Speaker A: Thank you. That's good to revisit every now and again. It is. It's always funny when we do have those sort of like, very culturally different sort of conversations on things, you know, where it's like where I think ultimately we arrive at similar places on Stefan, but that there's always going to be a slightly different perspective on certain things because of just being raised in entirely different cultures. [00:51:14] Speaker B: Yes. And guns and healthcare are but two of those. [00:51:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:20] Speaker B: Which like on the indigenous differences on. [00:51:22] Speaker A: The healthcare thing, though, I don't think that, like, I mean, at least between us, there is a difference in our perspectives on them. There's a difference in our experience. Experience of them. But I don't think my conclusions are different than yours on it. [00:51:38] Speaker B: No, certainly. But I mean, the. The right. The American right. At least how I read the portrayal of them, not only are they, you know, you're all kind of imprisoned by this appallingly, you know, unequal and just labyrinthine health care system. [00:52:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:03] Speaker B: But those who can afford it, defend it. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:09] Speaker B: No cries of socialism, cries of fucking communism. [00:52:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:14] Speaker B: At the merest suggestion of socialized health care. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I don't. So I think, you know, when like, Bernie was running and things like that, there was a lot of, like, studies about this kind of stuff, and it was like 80% of Americans, or much like, with like, gun laws, like, the vast majority of Americans support restricting the availability of guns. And I think the vast majority of Americans support some kind of like the equivalent of socialized health care. Whether we call it that or not. Usually Medicare for all is what we would call it here because people don't want to use terms like socialized. They're afraid of that term. But most people want that. It's a lobby. Right. Just like guns. It's not that the people particularly want this, it's that the politicians are being paid by that, you know, 0.01% of people who want this to keep that in place. So it doesn't really have. It doesn't reflect necessarily the American mind to say that we like our health care system or think this is the best way to do it. It's just that we're not the ones who are in charge of it. [00:53:27] Speaker B: So healthcare reform is held back for much the same reasons that gun control is. [00:53:34] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. The health insurance industry, insurance industries in general, and the gun lobby are two of the biggest lobbies in America who have the most control over our politics. So all of that stuff is. Has nothing to do with what we want. [00:53:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:56] Speaker A: People, it's. You know, there is a selective group of folks that is benefiting from the fact that we pay so much money and get no services. We did. We actually did a very infuriating video on this. On wisecrack. If you look up wisecrack and insurance. I did a whole bunch of research on how this system developed and whatnot, and it's pretty maddening to see how we got from point A to point B with insurance. But, yeah, it has nothing to do with us. And that's like, you know, that's the kind of thing that, like, why I get annoyed at, like, smug Brits as opposed to, like, thought out criticism from Brits is that, like, there's this equating of the policies of our government with what, like, everybody wants. Right. And that's. They're not the same thing. Our government is bought and paid for. [00:54:47] Speaker B: Listen, you've. You've completely, completely illustrated the point. I get it, I get it. I get it. It's not. It's. It's not the people. It's the system, isn't it? [00:54:54] Speaker A: Right. If we were talking about this too with, like, the passport things in our group chat the other day. Yeah, how, like, you know, there's a map of, like, where people have passports and where they don't. And it's like the easy sort of thing is to think, like, oh, those people, like, they just don't want to go anywhere. A bunch of, you know, idiots and ignorant folks because it's like the south and stuff like that, when really it's about a government that has made it difficult for people in those areas to go anywhere and that has kept them impoverished. So where the fuck are they gonna go, you know? Like, they're not going on vacation. What do they need a passport for? So I think that's, like, one of the things that a lot of people who don't have, like, real relationships with Americans don't recognize is that, like, a lot of the things that I think from the outside side make us look horrible have a lot to do with things that, like, most of us don't want and aren't in control of. [00:55:54] Speaker B: I get it. Thank you. Cultural exchange. [00:55:56] Speaker A: Cultural exchange, Exactly. That's what we're here for. [00:56:03] Speaker B: Right? It feels a little bit kind of facile to say, let's introduce this. Let's bring us in. Because, you know, we are. We are like an hour in here. But what I will ask you. What I will ask you, and I'll ask everybody this. So. Okay, there's another rabbit hole coming up. Have you seen the fucking snakebite guy on the news this week? [00:56:25] Speaker A: Oh, the guy who, like, let himself get Bit for like a bajillion years. And now he's like developing an anti venom or something. What was it that he's doing? They're using it for something. Right. [00:56:37] Speaker B: We have a fellow here who has spent like two decades there, like in. [00:56:44] Speaker A: In the uk. [00:56:45] Speaker B: Oh, no, he isn't in the uk. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Oh, okay. When you said here, I was like, oh, do you guys, like, here as in. [00:56:51] Speaker B: In this case? Right, okay. He spent 20 years just with the MO. The fucking nastiest snakes around, just biting him on purpose, studying the effect, much like the fucking Schmidt. Pain and death. [00:57:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:08] Speaker B: And from his blood, they are now within distance of synthesizing the kind of omni antidote for all snake bites. Right. Because he's such a tough son of a bitch, he has now created antibodies which he's immunized himself. He's effective. [00:57:27] Speaker A: So, like, if he gets bit by any of these things now, is he just like. He might, I guess, a little bit. But he's okay? [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He. He has effectively immunized himself from all snake bites. And the antibodies that he is now able to generate can be combined with some molecule or other to make a universal snake bite antidote. Right. [00:57:47] Speaker A: Wild. [00:57:48] Speaker B: Incredible. Incredible. And it makes me think, oh back like, again, the kind of. The version of me who started this podcast with you about five years ago, I seem to recall the conversation about how quickly or how much more quickly medical science could advance. Were we to relax some of the rules. [00:58:22] Speaker A: Yes. On human. Human experience. [00:58:24] Speaker B: On human testing. Yes. Just picking the right humans. [00:58:30] Speaker A: Sure. [00:58:31] Speaker B: You know? [00:58:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I feel like this kind of. What makes that tricky is obviously, you know, issues of consent and coercion. Right. Like, how do you go about doing that? This guy is just some dude who on his own time was like, I'm gonna fucking let. [00:58:48] Speaker B: Yeah, he's an enthusiast. [00:58:49] Speaker A: He's an enthusiast. Right. As opposed to, like. All right, well, what happens if you start, like, offering, like, financial incentives for someone to do this or something like that? Then do you get desperate people who allow you to let snakes bite them and potentially die because they're desperate? Kind of like what we were talking about with the organ harvesting last week. Like, that's why, you know, humanitarian organizations don't consider that you can, like, have consent in those situations. Right. Like, you have to be. It has to be 100% voluntary. And that is a tricky thing to make sure. Happens My. [00:59:29] Speaker B: My mind goes to the. As a replacement for capital punishment. [00:59:38] Speaker A: Ugh, not this again. [00:59:41] Speaker B: That. That is where. [00:59:43] Speaker A: Literally, that is where my mind Might. [00:59:46] Speaker B: Have gone five years ago, right? [00:59:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:49] Speaker B: Is there nothing there, Corey? Is there nothing? [00:59:52] Speaker A: There is nothing there. No. No. You cannot even a little. You cannot do shit to prisoners. There is no ethics in doing shit to prisoners. [01:00:02] Speaker B: Is there a little bit of worth exploring there? Is there just, like, a little possibility that this might lead to something for us as a species that's like, literally. [01:00:15] Speaker A: Exactly the kind of thing that. Like that, like, a hundred years ago they were doing. It's like, just like, find some prisoners and fucking do it to them. [01:00:25] Speaker B: I don't just mean any prisoners. I don't. You know, like a guy who steals to feed his family. No, not him. [01:00:31] Speaker A: But as we know, the reason that, like, death penalty is terrible is because a good chunk of those people are innocent. And so you can't. You can't be like, oh, well, we know this is, like the worst of the worst or whatever. Like, that's a slippery slope. [01:00:50] Speaker B: Let me put it like this. I don't agree with the death penalty. Right. [01:00:54] Speaker A: Mm. [01:00:55] Speaker B: I absolutely don't agree with the death penalty. I do believe that we can speed up. I do believe that this guy, snakebite guy, is walking punctured proof that you can make great leaps forward in medical science if you just test it on. [01:01:14] Speaker A: People with full consent of a human being who is doing this of their own volition and uncoerced by anyone else. This is no. No point at which you can, you know, do stuff to people who are unwilling or coerced. And that's the really bad ones. You just can't do it. Because what happens when they run out of really bad ones? What do they do next? [01:01:43] Speaker B: Well, we've got, like. That's the one thing. That's the one resource surely that will never run dry is bad people. [01:01:52] Speaker A: Sure. But they're not all on death row. [01:01:56] Speaker B: I think. [01:01:57] Speaker A: Wait, you're just gonna, like, find your, like, abusive neighbor and be like, yeah, test it on that guy. [01:02:01] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no. Nah, listen. Come on. I'm. I'm talking about the. Just the really bad guys. [01:02:12] Speaker A: You can't do it. It will always be a slippery slope as soon as you do it on the really bad guys, and it's like, well, what counts? And then maybe, you know, well, this person's being punished too. And maybe they're innocent, but we don't know that they've been, you know, put on death row. So. [01:02:30] Speaker B: I think there's something there. Welcome to Jack of all Graves, everyone. Yeah. Postal shootings and snake bites. And I hope you're all well. I hope you're well, Corry. I hope you're well out there. Plenty of reasons not to be. And that's what we're here for, isn't it? Plenty of reasons not to be. And we're here to talk about that. You can think of us, Corry and I, your friends here on the cultural exchange, on the Joag journey, sharing and caring and scaring. Ooh. [01:02:58] Speaker A: Nicely done. I like it. Clever. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Thank you. You can think of us like the FBI trainees in Quantico listening to the recordings of the Toolbox murders. [01:03:15] Speaker A: What, so you don't have to? Is that. [01:03:17] Speaker B: Is that why you don't have to? You don't have to look into this stuff. You don't have to press your nose against the filth covered, gore encrusted glass of humanity, because we're doing it for you. We will take the psychological toll. Right? We will gaze into the abyss and we'll tell you about it. [01:03:38] Speaker A: I like it. Yeah. [01:03:39] Speaker B: So you don't have to do it yourself. We're a service in many ways. We are like the fucking, you know, we are like those guys in Facebook, looking at the beheading videos and stopping them from reaching your feedback, filtering it out and have to see them. Right? That's what we're doing. We're doing you a favor. You don't have to get involved in this stuff. We'll do it for you and we'll just tell you about the worst bits. [01:04:03] Speaker A: That's the Joag promise. [01:04:05] Speaker B: That's the Joag promise. And I. We accept this burden. We take this burden willingly. Because in many ways, we're a couple of sick fucks, aren't we? [01:04:16] Speaker A: Well, arguably, you know, with Hearts of Gold. [01:04:22] Speaker B: Has it. Has it? There's a. There's a question. I was thinking this earlier. Has it affected you yet, do you think? [01:04:31] Speaker A: What, this. [01:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Doing this week in, week out for five years, taking a really, really detailed look, in some cases at the very, very, very worst, about the planet and about our trajectory. [01:04:45] Speaker A: Here's the thing, Mark. I'd be doing it anyway. This is my personality. I'm just telling it to you afterwards, but this is what I've been doing my whole life, is just. [01:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah, fair enough. [01:04:59] Speaker A: Going. Huh? That's terrible. And then reading as many things as I possibly can about it. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. [01:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's how I feel. I don't know about you. [01:05:09] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, fine. Because, I mean, I. I would have been doing it anyway, but not at this. Not at this. Not. Yeah, I wouldn't have set. I was aside every Sunday to do it. And maybe not casually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. More casually as opposed to, you know, ruminating. [01:05:30] Speaker A: Mm. [01:05:31] Speaker B: Level. So I don't know. Maybe it has affected me. Who knows? [01:05:37] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. Who would have thought? Mark's the sensitive one of the two of us, after all. [01:05:45] Speaker B: Oh, I am. [01:05:46] Speaker A: You are actually very sensitive. It's true. You're a sensitive soul, and that's why we love you. [01:05:51] Speaker B: So I'm very susceptible to criticism. I take criticism very personally. [01:05:57] Speaker A: Got that rejection, sensitive dysphoria. [01:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe in all, I feel that professionally, personally, I take a lot of things to heart and it bothers me. And, you know. [01:06:09] Speaker A: Well, and the. The interesting other side of that is that it also makes it so that, like, you don't love, like, excessive praise either. [01:06:16] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like both ends of that stress you out. [01:06:20] Speaker B: I can't think of anything worse. [01:06:22] Speaker A: This is worse than the criticism. [01:06:24] Speaker B: I also don't enjoy people sincerely saying nice things about me. Uncomfortable. [01:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Hugely, hugely terrible experiences. [01:06:34] Speaker B: And I also don't enjoy being ignored. [01:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, man. It's a rough set of traits. [01:06:45] Speaker B: Do you see the problem I've got? [01:06:46] Speaker A: Do you see that? I can see. Yeah. [01:06:48] Speaker B: Issue here. I'm not happy in it. [01:06:51] Speaker A: You're tormented. I don't like being perceived, but I hate when people don't perceive me. [01:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that is a conundrum, isn't it? That is a paradox. [01:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah. It really is. Shit. And yet here you are each week, allowing yourselves to be perceived by our listeners. And so we are grateful to you for. For that. [01:07:12] Speaker B: Hey, it was difficult, you know, I had to get. I had to get shockingly high that first week to be able to do this. [01:07:20] Speaker A: You could have been that high because you. You could still speak. And Lord knows. Lord knows when you are actually high, which I. [01:07:29] Speaker B: Which I'm not anymore. [01:07:31] Speaker A: No. No, not at all. Deeply. Unhai. [01:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got that right. How's your week been, listeners? Hope it's been cool. [01:07:41] Speaker A: Doing good out there. [01:07:43] Speaker B: I hope that you've managed to avoid the sharp end of the global and social decline. Hope you're managing to go about your lives and finding love and peace with your families and meaning in your employment and validation from your hobbies and your pursuits and that you're managing just to stay under the blade, that the pendulum hasn't quite swung low enough on you yet to cut your skin, you know? Yeah. Which is. Which is my way of saying I hope you're all good. [01:08:15] Speaker A: Marco's Little way was saying, yeah, friends, if you're, if you're a supporter on our Ko Fi at our high level. FYI, mailers will be coming this week from Japan slash Korea. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Did you send them from Japan or did you bring them home? [01:08:34] Speaker A: And send them. I brought them home. I don't know how to buy stamps in Japan so I just brought them back. But the things inside will be from Japan and Korea. But it is supposed to rain for the next three days, so it'll be after it stops raining so I can walk to the post office. And we've got some great watch along choices for this coming Saturday. [01:08:56] Speaker B: Oh, they've come in thick and fast. Thick and fast. And they've all met the brief as well. They've all absolutely hit the nail right on the head. Yes. Great shout Paul Thomas for Nomming Extro. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Yes. Which we had recently watched. [01:09:12] Speaker B: Such a shame we saw that recently because that was one of those movies that gives you more than you think it will. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that was a surprising movie. We thought we were in for like, I don't know, like maybe more serious critters or something like that. And instead it's, it's a movie with themes. [01:09:29] Speaker B: Themes, yes, yes, but we're still on for that. So next weekend, 10th of May. [01:09:37] Speaker A: Yes. We'll all get together on the old Discord, watch a sci fi horror. Yes, it's been too long. It'll be wonderful to get the gang together for that again. So please do join us for that whole situation. Marco, did you watch anything worth discussing this fine week? [01:09:55] Speaker B: Listen, I've had a. I've had a lovely bit of time to myself this week. [01:09:59] Speaker A: Oh, beautiful. [01:10:00] Speaker B: And I've been fucking. Yeah, I've spent it really, really well. I, I've been running a lot. I've been watching a load of movies. Great, great, great stuff. I, I got around to watching Conclave. [01:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:16] Speaker B: And what a feast. Yes, what a feast. [01:10:21] Speaker A: I knew you'd like it. [01:10:22] Speaker B: I knew you'd be a feast. And, and who, who? You know, who knew? Who knew? It's theater. It is fucking theater on screen. That's what that is. Just a fucking exceptional cast. [01:10:38] Speaker A: Yep. [01:10:41] Speaker B: Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful to look at. [01:10:44] Speaker A: Yep. [01:10:45] Speaker B: Symbolism. Oh, everywhere in that fucking film. Isn't it though? Just symbolism. Everywhere. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Everywhere. Yeah. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Not spoiling anything, but God, I don't want to say me's on set. I don't want everything visually, visually in that film contributes to the themes of the film. [01:11:09] Speaker A: Yes. [01:11:10] Speaker B: Just light and architecture and the. Again, the placement of human bodies on the screen. Where People are corners and, and just the way things are illuminated on the set. It is so rich, this film. Yes, it is. So that's, that's what I call it, a feast. Intentionally. It is so nourishing. Fucking capital R, capital F. Real film. Yes, Real fucking shit. This is. Oh, yeah. Beautiful. [01:11:44] Speaker A: I'm so glad that you enjoyed Conclave. Very glad. [01:11:47] Speaker B: How can you not? [01:11:47] Speaker A: I don't. Yeah. I don't know. [01:11:49] Speaker B: Timely. Oh, man. So good. I mean. [01:11:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Great one. [01:11:54] Speaker B: It's tempting to say, man, so prescient, isn't it, that they made that film just before a pope died. But I mean, popes be like, you're always in between a pope dying. [01:12:03] Speaker A: Yes. [01:12:05] Speaker B: But bang on. Thank you, Corrigan, for nudging my ass into seeing that because, yes, I'm very. [01:12:10] Speaker A: Glad we managed to catch one together. [01:12:15] Speaker B: Oh, and what a twist. [01:12:16] Speaker A: I know, right? No giveaways. [01:12:20] Speaker B: You probably saw it coming within the first. [01:12:22] Speaker A: No, I, I, I'm fairly certain I did not see that coming. That would have been wild. [01:12:30] Speaker B: Because. Did I, I saw, I saw the same film as you. They didn't reverse the conclave's decision at the end. [01:12:39] Speaker A: No, I don't think so. [01:12:40] Speaker B: Amazing. [01:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah, right? Love it. [01:12:44] Speaker B: Amazing. Like a jaw dropping. [01:12:48] Speaker A: Yeah. See, Conclave, if you haven't yet, it is just Autumn, a movie. [01:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It is. It really is. What about you? What have you seen? I got. We got loads more. [01:12:57] Speaker A: We got loads. I was gonna say we watched one movie together this week, which was Freaky Tales. [01:13:03] Speaker B: Talk about extro over delivering. [01:13:05] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, seriously. [01:13:08] Speaker B: Freaky Tales. Is it on Netflix? Is it a Netflix movie? [01:13:11] Speaker A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure what it's streaming on. [01:13:14] Speaker B: So you could be forgiven before you hit play on Freaky Tales that you might be getting like scary stories to tell in the dark kind of anthology. Maybe something like Fear Street. [01:13:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I think Fear street is kind of, you know, up the alley of what I was thinking. Something sort of retro and like period piece. Yeah. [01:13:38] Speaker B: You know, stickers for the Warp tour everywhere, that kind of thing, you know, I mean, that kind of heavy handed. [01:13:44] Speaker A: Right. [01:13:45] Speaker B: Homage. But this is closer. This is, this is ambitious. This is a fucking ambitious ass film. Right. Not only, not only do you have a fantastic cast, right? [01:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:01] Speaker B: And a just a great cast of what were to me first timers, people I'd not seen in movies before. But with a really, really good old guard, you've got, you know, good old Pedro Pascal, who is in every fucking. [01:14:13] Speaker A: Movie and TV man of the hour. [01:14:15] Speaker B: Man of the hour. You got Ben Mendelsohn, my favorite. Probably my favorite actor of all time. Ben Mendelsohn. [01:14:23] Speaker A: Really? [01:14:24] Speaker B: Huge, huge, huge fan of his. He's so good, isn't he? [01:14:30] Speaker A: I just want him to be like a nice guy in something because he's so, like, he's so good at playing bad. And, and I bet he's like the nicest man on earth because you see that in like Captain Marvel where it's like once he's like not the villain really anymore. It's like he's actually really goofy and fun, but it's like. Yeah, I want him to be like a, like a dad. Like a. [01:14:51] Speaker B: He's my favorite actor of all time. [01:14:52] Speaker A: He's great. [01:14:53] Speaker B: One of my favorite. I love his voice. [01:14:55] Speaker A: He does. [01:14:55] Speaker B: And I also love how he often. He often delivers. He often delivers dialogue like he's speaking through a big old mouthful of saliva. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Right. [01:15:05] Speaker B: Did you get that from him? [01:15:06] Speaker A: 100%. Yeah. It's like, it's not a lisp, but it's something similar. [01:15:10] Speaker B: He's got a wet mouthed delivery. [01:15:12] Speaker A: He's got a wet mouth. Yeah. [01:15:14] Speaker B: Wet mouthed effect. And he's in it and he's always great. But, but, but ambition. This is a film with fucking ideas above and beyond its format. [01:15:26] Speaker A: Yes. [01:15:30] Speaker B: This might seem hasty. Right. [01:15:32] Speaker A: Okay. [01:15:33] Speaker B: And it isn't on the same. It isn't of the same level of accomplishment as this, but it does. It gave me big Pulp Fiction feelings. [01:15:43] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Yeah, definitely. [01:15:45] Speaker B: And not just in the structure of the film. Yeah, it's an anthology film, but, but more like, you know, you see four different perspectives on the same event. Yeah. You see four different angles on the same evening in a particular town in the 80s. But each of those four slices of the film are very different. [01:16:07] Speaker A: Yes. Hugely different, you know? Yeah. [01:16:10] Speaker B: This isn't. You couldn't, you couldn't, with a straight face call this a horror film, right? I don't think. No, it is an action film. It's got a lot to say about, you know, the, the kind of social and racial structure of that town in the 80s. It's got a lot to say about law enforcement and about fucking culture, youth culture. It's. It's horror, it's action, there's comedy in there. It's. I mean, you were there, you were there at that time in that place. [01:16:43] Speaker A: Not that time. It was a little before my time. But I did love that. Like, one of the first things that you, you said to me was like, this starts at like a punk show in Oakland. And you were like, did you ever go to any parties like that? And so I, like, found some photos of, like, me as a teen in the Bay, going to, like, similarly graffitied up punk shows and stuff like that. Like, yes, like this. If you are from the Bay, this movie nails the Bay. And it was really fun to see that in there. Like, this really captured what being like a teen in that area was and everything, which is cool for me. [01:17:20] Speaker B: I don't know if I speak for other Brits listening to this, but you see like house parties in American films and they've got like a keg and those fucking red cups. [01:17:30] Speaker A: Red solo cups. [01:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And you just think, who the F could be like this? Sure. But that. They nailed that. [01:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's 100% what my, like, high school life was like without the Nazis. [01:17:43] Speaker B: Incredible. [01:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:44] Speaker B: And yeah, each segment builds and builds and builds. And the last two segments at least are so ambitious and beautifully produced and choreographed. [01:17:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:55] Speaker B: Very pleasingly violent, very. What's the word I'm looking for? Stylized. This personality in this fucking film. It is way better and more to it than you might be expecting. I was super impressed with Freaky Tales. I wasn't even going to watch it. I was, like, ambivalent towards it. [01:18:13] Speaker A: I know. And I kept on saying to you, like, so are we going to watch Freaky Tales? Are you going to watch Freaky Tales? You did. [01:18:18] Speaker B: And well done for doing that unreserved. It's this week's Joag film of the week. [01:18:28] Speaker A: All right there, Roger Ebert thing we do. Another thing I watched this week that I surprisingly loved and I'm excited for you to see it was thunderbolts asterisk. [01:18:43] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:18:44] Speaker A: Yes. And I won't, I won't give away anything, but obviously, you know, if you've seen Black Widow, you're getting the characters from that, which are delightful. I mean, the side characters from Black Widow are what made that movie. Plus you get Bucky and, you know, a brand new character that you've never seen before. And it was. It's very fun and funny and then surprisingly poignant. [01:19:14] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:19:15] Speaker A: The, like, message, if you will. Like, I feel like message is not necessarily the word I'm looking for, but like, yeah, the message of this movie, like, hit me like a ton of bricks. I just wasn't expecting it kind of came and was like, whoa, you know, and really liked where they took the sort of villain in this movie, which was very different than any other ones they've done. [01:19:42] Speaker B: Ten hours from now, I will be sat waiting for it to start. Me and the kids. It's back early tomorrow, so me and the kids are gonna see it at half nine tomorrow morning. [01:19:49] Speaker A: Yeah, if you. If you were on the fence. Thunderbolts. You gotta go see it. [01:19:55] Speaker B: Nice. We did our homework and watched Black Widow last night. And you're right. It's. Yeah, it's really fun. Back when. I don't know who the quote is, but somebody involved in Marvel this week said there's a feeling internally that keeping in touch with all of the Marvel properties feels more like homework these days than it does. [01:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:19] Speaker B: You know, voluntary entertainment that people come to of their own accord. You know, you're having to do. You're having to put hours in just to stay abreast of what the fuck is going on. And Black Widow, I think, was one of the last of it was. Yeah, it was when Marvel didn't feel like such a slog. [01:20:38] Speaker A: Right. And that was what I felt with Thunderbolts is I was like, this doesn't feel like a chore to, like, watch and that, like, you. You have just enough information to understand this, even if you have not been keeping up. Like, Kristin asked me. She was like, I do not watch this stuff anymore. I watched, like, half of this and half of that and all that. And I was like, I don't watch it either. It was still great. It's like, you've seen Black Widow. You know who Bucky is. There's some new stuff. There's some people who are like, anything you missed, like, from, you know, the recent Captain America movie and stuff like that? They, like, briefly tell you, like, I didn't. I didn't see that. And they briefly mentioned what happened in that. In here. So it's like you're. You're. You're caught up. It's fine. Don't worry about it. [01:21:27] Speaker B: Good. Good. I don't know if it's. If it's. If it's. I was wondering if it was my attention span because I was proper enjoying the Daredevil show. Right. Born Again. But even by, like, episode six of that, I was like. [01:21:42] Speaker A: You see, this is why I've always struggled with, like, the TV shows. Like, even if I like it, there comes a point where I'm, like, a little done. I know. I'm kind of over it. [01:21:53] Speaker B: Lots of good TV in the next couple weeks. However, Poker Face is back this week. Hey, yo. [01:21:57] Speaker A: That's true. Yes. That'll be fun. [01:22:00] Speaker B: The bear is back in a few months. The bear is back in July, I think. [01:22:04] Speaker A: Okay, so I get to spend some. [01:22:06] Speaker B: More time with my favorite family, and they are my favorite family. I love them. [01:22:11] Speaker A: Love it. I. Oh, I did watch Drop, so we can kind of write that down. [01:22:20] Speaker B: Was I wrong? [01:22:22] Speaker A: I mean, not wrong for you, I don't think. I think a lot of people who listen to this show will enjoy Drop for what it is. You know, I found my issues with Drop were, like, not really. It was more like I get frustrated by movies where someone's social graces are kind of like, you know, the problem here and politeness and whatnot. And. Yeah, the fact that, like, this movie kind of hinges around, like, politeness in a way is, like, really stressful for me. And that was, like. That was the hardest thing is just kind of watching a movie where the whole time you're just like, she's being really rude. And, like, that was. That stressed me out more than the situation did in. In this movie. But I think, like, it's a fine, like. Like, just middle of the road, Bloom has to house fair. That'll keep you entertained with pretty people in peril for, you know, the. The run time, as I put it last week. Yeah. It's, like, perfectly serviceable. It's not going to change your life. It's just. It's just there. [01:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it was not what I was looking for. Wasn't what I wanted. [01:23:34] Speaker A: That's fair. I could see why you hated it. I just don't think, like, most people necessarily would hate it. I think that was fine. [01:23:43] Speaker B: Well, I. I seem to have a little bee in my bonnet this week about serial killer biopics. [01:23:54] Speaker A: Okay. Right. [01:23:56] Speaker B: Everyone loves Big Ed, don't they? [01:23:59] Speaker A: Everyone loves Big Ed out there narrating his audio books and cutting off heads. [01:24:05] Speaker B: Everyone loves Big Ed Kemper. So imagine my delight. I. I love Big Ed Kemper. He's my favorite. He's my. He's. He's the. He's the best one. And so imagine my delight to see a new movie all about him called no idea, Intriguingly, Ed Kemper. [01:24:23] Speaker A: Imagine. [01:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah, I know. Let me. Let me think. So would you call him, like, a. [01:24:31] Speaker A: Movie of the week, buddy? Like, I mean, I. I have no context for what you're about to say. [01:24:37] Speaker B: Would you. [01:24:37] Speaker A: But I'm guessing yes. [01:24:39] Speaker B: What is a like, a made for TV type movie that you'd find on Cave? [01:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [01:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Movie of the week. Imagine one of those, right. About Ed Kemper that is absolutely gory as fuck and does not flinch, man. He torsos. [01:25:01] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [01:25:03] Speaker B: Ah, he. You know, you've got. He is dismembering girls in the bath. [01:25:10] Speaker A: Wow. [01:25:11] Speaker B: You know, he's just. His hairy asses raping body parts all over the place in this film. Right? All over the place in this film. But it's also, you know, you also feel as though you could. You could just watch this on the Fucking Lifestyle Channel. 2:00pm on a Wednesday. [01:25:30] Speaker A: That's quite. That's quite a line to walk. [01:25:33] Speaker B: It's incredible, you know, because for the first 45 minutes you're like, what is this soap opera fucking horseshit. Right. It goes into big Ed Kemper's childhood and him being locked in the basement by his mum. [01:25:45] Speaker A: Sure. [01:25:46] Speaker B: And it's terrible. It's awful. He has visions of, you know, like the Tenacious D video for tribute where you've got. Is it Dave Grohl in the devil suit with. Yeah, literally that. That version of the devil is talking to him in the basement. Ed, fucking kill your mother. It's. It's like a Halloween style trick or treat. Devil costume is talking to him in the basement. It's supposed to be frightening and terrifying. [01:26:11] Speaker A: Spare no expense. [01:26:13] Speaker B: Poof. Awful. But then 10 minutes later, he's fucking torsos and he's decapitating girls. You know what I mean? It is. It's a big tonal shift in this film. [01:26:26] Speaker A: It's like just like the worst of both worlds. [01:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. If you will. [01:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like now, like serial killer movies now are usually, especially if they're about like real serial killers are usually like much more sensitive about their approach to like the murders themselves. [01:26:46] Speaker B: You know, this one is not sensitive. [01:26:49] Speaker A: To any of that. You don't get that anymore of just like, oh, yeah, hell yeah, let's show all of this. And then on top of a soap opera, like, it just sounds like, yeah. The worst possible combination of these things. [01:27:04] Speaker B: That's really well put. It is. It is the worst of both worlds. I thought, you know, there's a. You shoot some girl, he shoots a hitchhiker. And there's like a CGI kind of bullet wound. And I'm like, oh, no, this is going to be terrible. These effects are going to be rubbish. But then, bang, we've got rubber limbs, you know what I mean? We've got fucking fake heads. You know, a rubber. Again sorry, a rubber torso full of guts. It. It's got, you know. Yeah, it's. It's a. It'll give you whiplash, this film. And while this is not a recommendation for the movie, Ed Kemper, you know, I'm I'm not telling you not to watch it. If you really want to scratch your head at some choices. This is the one. This is the one. [01:27:54] Speaker A: I can see why this flew under the radar. [01:27:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was certainly jog's most interesting film of the week. [01:28:03] Speaker A: What else did you watch? That was serial killer biopic. Really didn't. [01:28:08] Speaker B: Okay, come with me back to 1974, if you will. [01:28:11] Speaker A: Deranged all of a sudden. Who are you? Me all of a sudden. [01:28:16] Speaker B: I know, right? Yeah, I know, I know, I know. 70s movies, 1974, deranged. This was a. I vividly remember this from my tape trading days as being. I think this must have been. I certainly think I've seen this list on the good old video Nasties. It's the story of Ed Gein. [01:28:35] Speaker A: Oh. [01:28:38] Speaker B: The, you know, names changed. But this is a few years before the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I was about to say. [01:28:45] Speaker A: I mean, you're in the region of it, but. Yeah, that's wild. [01:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah. This pipped Texas to the Post and covers a lot of the same ground. Wow. Fascinating. It's presented almost as a. It's presented almost as a straight up documentary. Right. And. And one of the characters in this film is a reporter who serves as like a Greek chorus and addresses the camera directly. Talks to the viewer directly. At this point, Ed's life got worse and worse. And his mother. Oh, interesting events you're about to see. I apologize. These are shocking things you're about to see. And the. The reporter, like, walks into scenes interesting. [01:29:29] Speaker A: Like, it's like he's like fucking Rod Serling. [01:29:33] Speaker B: No, exactly this. Exactly this. That's how. This. That's how Deranged is framed. Almost like as an episode of something that's fascinating. And you've got the reporter in his trench coat and he's talking right to the camera. I think he's got a notepad in one. [01:29:46] Speaker A: In one scene. [01:29:48] Speaker B: But covers a lot of ground as Texas, poor Ezra's, you know, mother dies. Overbearing relationship with his mother. And he hears her speaking to him from beyond the grave. So he does what any normal kid would do. Loves his mum and goes and rescues her. Takes her back from the grave and puts her back together in his house, you know, pretties her up, makes sure she. She looks good, and then goes out and gets himself some ladies of his own with his. Much like Norman Bates with his mother's voice ringing in his ears. They're all. They're all whores. Ezra Gonorrhea. Ezra, the wages of sin is death. Ezra. So he kills the women and fucking keeps the bodies and arranges them around the dinner table. You know. And it sounds interesting for dinner. Hey. 17 year old Mark would have loved this off. 46 year old Mark enjoyed it as well. Sure. It's a really nice throwback. I. For what is like a 50 year old movie, man. [01:30:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:57] Speaker B: That insane. [01:30:58] Speaker A: It's wild, right? [01:31:00] Speaker B: Unflinching. Lots of. Lots of really nice 70s gore. [01:31:05] Speaker A: Nice. [01:31:06] Speaker B: I. You know all it was missing for me were. Was kind of VHS kind of across. Across the screen. I could almost see them. [01:31:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:15] Speaker B: As I was watching it. [01:31:16] Speaker A: I'll have to check this one out. This sounds. This sounds real interesting. [01:31:20] Speaker B: I'm surprised you've not heard of it. I'm certain. Yeah, we'll have seen it. Deranged story of Ezra Cobb AKA and it does that bit. I love where the movie starts with the events portrayed in this film are true. [01:31:36] Speaker A: Right. [01:31:37] Speaker B: This is an actual true story. I love that gimmick. [01:31:42] Speaker A: By the way, I loved the conversation on our Facebook the other day about the word macabre. And you know how you. How you pronounce that or whatever. And then you put the. The intro to TCM on there. Which then brought me to a realization that I'd never noticed before, which is he pronounces macabre just fine but then goes to say idyllic in the weirdest way possible. He's like an idealic. I was like, that's. [01:32:09] Speaker B: I can't recall it off the top of my head. I've seen it a zillion times, but I can't recall. [01:32:13] Speaker A: How does he notice? He says idyllic, like with. And he really hits that deal hard. I'm like, I've never noticed this. But because I was specifically paying attention to his pronunciation, I was like, why does he say it like that? [01:32:28] Speaker B: Fascinating. Sidebar. The game, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre game was on. PS plus was on. Was. Was in April's free games. So I gave it a quick spin. It was terrible. [01:32:43] Speaker A: Just terrible. Also, rip to the Evil Dead game. [01:32:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, pull one out. [01:32:50] Speaker A: So enjoyed playing together, but was just way too hard to play on your own or with strangers. Like, not surprised that this did not last. [01:33:00] Speaker B: Switch off the servers. Take it off the storefronts. This one's dead. [01:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's dead. But we had a great time with it while it lasted. [01:33:07] Speaker B: I didn't. [01:33:09] Speaker A: It's true. I have video evidence. So much screaming. There's. I think there was one more. Maybe not. Nope. The only other Thing I think I watched this week was I just. I would highly like to recommend this to people I watched. Nope. For like the seventh time or whatever. But I got the Blu ray from the library and watched all the special features. The special features on the Note Blu ray are excellent. Excellent. They're exactly what you want from special features. There's a blooper reel which is always super fun. There's like lore to it. There's talking about. There's like a feature on the horseback rider video that Edward Muybridge made and about like, you know, the, the history behind the fact that we don't know who that rider is and stuff. There's behind the scenes when it comes to the like technology. There's a thing about jean jacket like, oh, just phenomenal. Like two hours or so of, of special features. So if you. Yeah. [01:34:14] Speaker B: Does it have a commentary? [01:34:16] Speaker A: There might be. I was actually talking to Kyo about this the other day that like commenters are the one thing that I never really got into on DVDs, which was like huge at the time. But unless it was something like the Ben Affleck Armageddon commentary or something like that, I normally didn't listen to them. [01:34:34] Speaker B: Okay. [01:34:34] Speaker A: So I don't know. There might be commentary on this, but it's well worth your time. Hit up your library, get a Blu ray of nope. And enjoy yourself because it's, it's superb. [01:34:47] Speaker B: Yes. The only other I, again, I had some time to myself today, so I not only did I watched Deranged, I then went straight on and revisited the substance. I don't know why, but I've had a little itch to revisit that film. If only, if only, if only I could give it six stars. If only I could, I would love it because it fucking deserves it. [01:35:10] Speaker A: This. [01:35:11] Speaker B: You know, often I'll go back to the. I don't know if it was on the cast or maybe it was in a conversation that we had this week and we were talking about I think you should leave. Right? [01:35:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it was before last week's cast. You and I were talking about what kinds of stand up we like and sort of like, yeah, the kind of comedy that hits. And I think you should leave came. [01:35:31] Speaker B: Up and I, I think I, I said something similar along the lines of I think you should leave. Before I saw. I think you should leave. I couldn't, I couldn't even conceive of how funny it was. [01:35:41] Speaker A: Right. [01:35:41] Speaker B: It was funny in a way that I had never really. That I, that I, you know, you couldn't describe it to anyone. [01:35:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:47] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? It. It presents you almost with a new kind of funny. It's funny in a way you couldn't. You. You previously never conceived of, like a new musical note or a new color. [01:35:57] Speaker A: Right. [01:35:58] Speaker B: The substance feels that way to me. It is. It is. It is brilliant in ways that you are completely unprepared for. [01:36:07] Speaker A: Right. [01:36:07] Speaker B: That's the best way. And. And if this is me being sheltered or shallow or maybe I need to watch more horror movies or what, Because. [01:36:15] Speaker A: I'm always saying, Mark, you really gotta broaden your horizons. Watch more horror movies. [01:36:19] Speaker B: Because it's very clearly comprised of, you know, I said at the time, it wears its influences right there on its sleeve. It is right out there with its, you know, with what it draws from. But what it presents from those influences is so fresh. It is the crispest, most delicious, bright and just like a bolt out of the blue. This film, it's like the taste of fruit on a hot day. This film, it is so good. [01:36:56] Speaker A: Love it. [01:36:57] Speaker B: And so extreme and so uncompromising. Has no. It pays not the slightest fucking wit of mind to holding back. It is not interested in how you feel about what it presents you. It is gonna show you and shout it in your head, right? Just to describe this amazing event in this film. By the end, when Elizabeth and Sue are combined into an entity known as Monstro. Eliza. Sue. Right? And for some, somehow this absolute monstrosity finds its way onto the New Year's Eve show in front of the world's cameras. In this audience, somehow the monster gets decapitated and an entirely new head grows back, which is even more fucking hideous than the last. Oh, God, that's so good. That is so good. [01:37:55] Speaker A: And it is gonna revisit that one. [01:37:57] Speaker B: You should Corey me. You there. You have no recourse other than to just gape at how great that film is. I loved it. That's. That's what a five star film does to me. That's what a five star film has to do, right? The. The past couple of minutes of the way I've spoken about that film make me speak like that about your film. If you want five stars out of me that make me feel it, leave me no choice, sir. [01:38:24] Speaker A: This is a Wendy's. [01:38:28] Speaker B: I fucking love the substance. Like it, it introduces, you know, it does massive title cards on screen, which I adore. That's a gimmick I love. First time we see Elizabeth bang. Elizabeth. First time we see sue bang. Huge words on screen. Sue. First time we see the monster bang. Monstro. Elisa Sue. It's brilliant. [01:38:51] Speaker A: Amazing, brilliant. I think this is inevitable, Marco. We. We've shared a lot of cultural exchange and whatnot, and we done run ourselves out of time, didn't we? [01:39:05] Speaker B: Is that what we've done? [01:39:06] Speaker A: Shit, I think we have. [01:39:08] Speaker B: Well, okay, listen. Let me tell you what I. What I'd like to do here, okay? I'm gonna save my tale here, and I'm gonna just tease it. That's gonna be my opener for the next week, right? [01:39:18] Speaker A: Oh, well, I mean, I still have my. We still want to talk about this topic, don't we? [01:39:22] Speaker B: Oh, we do. Good. I thought you were wrapping us up. I was like. [01:39:24] Speaker A: No, I meant like. Well, do you. I mean, you usually want to go to bed, so if we were to talk out this topic, it would take us past midnight for you, probably. [01:39:33] Speaker B: Well, it's a bank holiday tomorrow, so I'm. [01:39:35] Speaker A: Oh. [01:39:35] Speaker B: But at the same time, I want to do it justice. [01:39:40] Speaker A: Listen, why don't we do it. Why don't we do it next week? I think we have filled the ears of our listeners with lots of information, and let's do this justice next week, because I know I have, as is my custom, several pages to talk about this. You really want to talk about the thing you're talking about, So I do. [01:40:00] Speaker B: The topic that Corrigan has suggested. I'll just tease it because. [01:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah, do it, do it. Do that. [01:40:05] Speaker B: Right. It's a gimmick in sci fi TV and movies. Right. That I'm sure you will have come across. [01:40:12] Speaker A: Okay. [01:40:13] Speaker B: This idea of the evil counterpart to the protagonist. [01:40:18] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. [01:40:19] Speaker B: Come with me on this. Sam Beckett had, like, an evil leaper that he would sometimes come up against. [01:40:25] Speaker A: Oh, leaper? [01:40:27] Speaker B: Yes. What do you think? I said? [01:40:29] Speaker A: I heard like, leaper, like. Like dua. Lipa. Not familiar. [01:40:36] Speaker B: This. This idea of there being an evil counterpart to the hero. [01:40:39] Speaker A: So Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap, your universe. Kirk and Spock. Exactly. [01:40:44] Speaker B: The doctor has the master, right? [01:40:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Who. [01:40:47] Speaker B: Who have all of the. The attributes and lots of common ground with our hero, but are the inverse. We're actively trying to undermine them and to undo their work, often for. Often for similar, you know, kind of reasons, but they're the evil version. [01:41:07] Speaker A: Totally. [01:41:07] Speaker B: Corrigan's theme that. That we're gonna cover next week was that of grifters. [01:41:13] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:41:14] Speaker B: Grifters, cheats, you know, scammers. [01:41:21] Speaker A: Scammers. [01:41:22] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I kind of love a grifter. I like this idea that there are people out there moving through the world, right? The world with all of its imperfections and with the deck being stacked against the regular schmoes like you and me, systems that are already built to, you know, to kind of limit social mobility and fair play. And even amongst all of that, all of the odds already stacked against us, there are people out there moving amongst all of that still actively trying to fuck over other people. Isn't that incredible? [01:42:12] Speaker A: It is really something. Yeah. [01:42:15] Speaker B: The paucity of morals there, the lack of any kind of moral fiber or, or, or just the willingness to do bad for bad reasons. [01:42:29] Speaker A: Right. [01:42:30] Speaker B: Just in the interest of just turning a profit or climbing a ladder or getting a little win. Just grifters who are able to just lie and cheat and steal, like Ellie Guerrero, you know, as fucking scummy as. As that is as a pursuit, man, you gotta, you gotta respect it, haven't you? [01:42:55] Speaker A: Well, that is, you know, as some things that I read today, we're talking about, that is in fact one of the sort of things about grifters is that we begrudgingly kinda respect the game. [01:43:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, I, I think, I think a lot of it is maybe to do with the fact that I can't, I can't make that leap myself. I can't imagine what it must be like to be just willfully bad on purpose. [01:43:23] Speaker A: Yeah, completely. [01:43:25] Speaker B: I'm, I'm. You know, something I'm fond of saying is I don't, I don't believe that anyone wakes up in the morning and decides they're gonna be a dickhead. [01:43:31] Speaker A: Right. [01:43:32] Speaker B: And decides they're gonna fuck shit up for people on purpose and just be the worst thing about your day. But there are people who do. [01:43:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:43:40] Speaker B: Who make it their fucking life's work to, to fucking tread on necks for their own benefit. Very interesting shit. [01:43:50] Speaker A: Yes. So next week we will get into that because, yeah, we're both excited about this topic and have much to say. And I am going to tell you all the tale of a grifter that I've been watching from afar for the past five years that I'm very excited to finally discuss. [01:44:09] Speaker B: And I'm gonna tell you the tale of a grifter, a group of grifters who grifted the fucking world. [01:44:18] Speaker A: Very exciting. Very exciting. So stick with us, friends. Come with us this weekend to our watch along this Thursday. [01:44:28] Speaker B: If you're working, if you're working next Saturday, quit your job. Right? [01:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:34] Speaker B: If you've got family plans, excommunicate your family. [01:44:38] Speaker A: Sure. [01:44:39] Speaker B: If you have commitments, let them down. If you've made promises, break them. Attendance is mandatory. [01:44:51] Speaker A: That's right. [01:44:53] Speaker B: Not really. We. But we'd love you to be. [01:44:58] Speaker A: Yes. And Thursday, of course. New Fan Cave. So we're going to be discussing Ready or Not. So if for some reason you've never seen Ready or Not, get your together and watch. [01:45:10] Speaker B: Can I. I'm just going to tip my meds here. Hang on. Can I just say, I. I don't think you're being hard enough on Kristen. Ready or Not. It's light work. [01:45:22] Speaker A: It's a balance, Marco. Because listen, you know, if I traumatized her every month, she would stop coming back. So, you know. [01:45:31] Speaker B: Well, what was last month was. [01:45:33] Speaker A: Last month was Elm Street. No. Battle Royale. Oh, no, it was Elm Street. Yes. Elm street was last last month. [01:45:40] Speaker B: Okay. No, fair enough. At least. At least it's not all kind of fluff. [01:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah, right. You gotta throw a few, like, fun little things in there and then slow. Some, like, real, you know, gritty stuff and whatnot. But like, not to want to backseat. [01:45:52] Speaker B: Fan Cave, but I think you could maybe turn up the heat. [01:45:56] Speaker A: We'll get. We will certainly get to it. You know, there's some kind of. Especially, I feel like when it gets towards fall and towards Halloween season and stuff, that's when we kind of like turn up the heat a little bit on. On the spooky stuff and whatnot. But, like, summer is a little light and breezy. I was like, you know, may, it's wedding season. Let's get ready or not in there. [01:46:16] Speaker B: Fair enough. Fair enough. [01:46:17] Speaker A: You know, I love a theme. You know, I love when something is, like, thematic. [01:46:21] Speaker B: You do enjoy a theme. You enjoy a through line. [01:46:24] Speaker A: I do. I really like that. So, you know, that's kind of how it works. Also, we've got book club, of course, the third Saturday of the month and the. I cannot, of course, remember what the book is, but. Jackofallgraves.com bookclub find out what it was. This book club this past month was very funny because none of us liked the book. But we had a really good time discussing why we didn't like the book. [01:46:49] Speaker B: And who suggested the book. [01:46:51] Speaker A: None of us could remember. We don't know where this came from. It's just here. [01:46:57] Speaker B: Well, all I'm saying is here, right? Book club, you get a book none of you like, brush it off, watch along. I suggest a movie no one likes. I'm in fucking film jail. One million years Dungeon. [01:47:11] Speaker A: This is different. [01:47:12] Speaker B: Make it make sense. [01:47:14] Speaker A: The reasons why we didn't like it were very different. Than the meet the feeble situation. [01:47:23] Speaker B: I'm just saying there might be something there worth discussing, that's all. [01:47:26] Speaker A: Listen, you put it to the crowd. And you were found to not be out of jail yet. So parole denied. [01:47:34] Speaker B: This thing's interesting, isn't it? How, you know, it's one rule for the readers. [01:47:42] Speaker A: So, you know, get on the Kofi, do all the things with us. We'll be back in action. Now that I'm back from vacation and all that stuff, doing our. Our let's plays and, you know, another snack and all that stuff. And, you know, just join us, hang out. [01:47:59] Speaker B: We love you. [01:48:00] Speaker A: We do. It's true. [01:48:02] Speaker B: Even in the face of impending catastrophe globally, we still love you. Isn't that special? [01:48:10] Speaker A: It's really special. Warms the heart, doesn't it? Stay spooky.