Ep. 223: space goo & organ harvests

[00:00:03] Speaker A: All right, all right, all right. Something of a sequel of sorts here. Corrigan listeners, friends, lovers, it's. It's a privilege to me to be in a position where we're now such a long running podcast. One of the, one of the longest of all podcasts. One of the longest running podcasts, statistically, we probably are. You know, if there was a poll, we'd be right up there in the higher echelons. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Exactly. Like in the grand scheme of podcasts for sure. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Yeah, we're like elder statesmen of the podcast realm now. So it's a privilege, I think, that we get to circle back and do kind of follow ups to tales, sequels to stories, and that's kind of what we've got here. Right, okay. Think of this as a sister tale to an earlier episode. One of my favorites. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Oh, all right. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Sometimes Corey, right? Weird shit happens. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Wherever you are, wherever you live, wherever you know in the world, your situation, your community, sometimes weird shit happens. But the thing is, sometimes it happens again. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:19] Speaker A: Come with me, if you would. So it's 1994. Okay. Great time, actually. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Hey, listen, it was working. Things were working out pretty well for me in old 1994. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Great time. The 90s, August 1994, maybe not such a great time for the residents of Oakville in Washington. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Oakville, it's again, you know, I love that social context. You know, I love the geography. You know, I love to paint a picture here. So we are in a kind of a foresting kind of town. Right, right. We are tucked in here between kind of really dense forests in the. Just near the Pacific coast. Summer in Oakville. Are you looking it up? [00:02:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I was just giving a. Giving it a quick look. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Am I right? [00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah, excellent. Yeah. From what I can tell. Yeah. Foresty Washington State. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A feature of Oakville. And that area is, climate wise, it's quite rainy. Okay. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Yes. Am I northwest? [00:02:31] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. Heavy rain. Heavy rain. Around 3:00am, 3:00 in the fucking morning of August 7th, 1994, it rained. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Nothing unusual about that. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah, regular. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Nothing unusual about that, thought local fucking cop David Lacy, driving his patrol car to protect and serve, no doubt written on the door through the fucking, you know, the rural, twisty back roads. When the rain began to pitter patter on his windscreen. Very normal. But this time Officer Lacy switched on his fucking windscreen wipers. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Or windshield wipers, as he would probably have called them. [00:03:22] Speaker A: I noticed that the rain wasn't just being wiped away, it was smearing. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Ew. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Not a fan of that gelatinous, translucent, almost. Almost biological substance across his car windscreen. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Officer Lacy. He pulls in to a gas station and examines this a little more closely. The material, the film that it had caused on his windscreen was cold. It was odorless, it was soft. Later, in interviews, he would describe it as being like jello. [00:04:16] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:04:17] Speaker A: A greasy, oily film that resisted wiping from his windscreen. Across town that same morning at dawn, a retiree, a lady by the name of Dottie Hearn, 63 years old, retired, stepped outside on her porch and she found soft, gelatinous blobs. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Zaboba rain is what it was. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Tapioca. Fucking tapioca storm. These little tiny fucking blobs. Gelatinous blobs scattered everywhere. They were all over her garden, on her deck, clinging to her roof. She touched one, picked one up. Curiously. [00:05:05] Speaker B: This is like. I'm sorry. No, no. You're about to say is, of course you would. And I do. I do not understand. This is like the stuff. You know how in the stuff people see, like, it coming up out of the ground and then they're like. Then they taste it and I just. I don't pick things up if I don't know what they are. That's just not my vibe. [00:05:26] Speaker A: I. I think I would probably put some in a cup or a bag. [00:05:31] Speaker B: Yeah, like maybe. Yeah, like tweezers or like. I would not bare handed be like, what are these? And pick it up. [00:05:41] Speaker A: Well, here's. Here's the thing. This is probably why you shouldn't, because Dottie picks up the goop. [00:05:48] Speaker B: Mm. [00:05:49] Speaker A: And it squishes under her fingers like fucking jelly. [00:05:53] Speaker B: No. [00:05:54] Speaker A: And Corey. Corey. By mid morning, that very same morning, Dottie had become violently ill. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. [00:06:04] Speaker B: Oh, Dottie. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Dizzy. She was nauseous. She was barely able to stand on her own two feet. [00:06:12] Speaker B: Jesus. [00:06:13] Speaker A: She was found by her daughter, Sunny Bartlett. Sunny Barclift. I apologize, Sunny. She arrived at her mother's house to find her slumped over in the bathroom, disoriented, sweating. And Dottie was rushed to hospital. And all they found was an inner ear infection and the symptoms of baffled doctors. They had no idea why she'd fallen so ill. Huh? Corrigan? [00:06:38] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Dottie was not alone. [00:06:41] Speaker B: All right? [00:06:42] Speaker A: That morning, and for the days after, dozens of residents of Oakville turned up sick. Similar symptoms. Respiratory difficulties, vertigo, in some cases, blurred vision, fatigue. Fucking hell, Corrie. Even pets were affected by this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dogs, cats that had been Outside during the rain that morning. Some died, some were so sick. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Walter would have immediately been like that shit right up. Yeah. [00:07:17] Speaker A: And carked it. You'd have found him fucking paws to heaven, mate. Officer Lacy himself, the first reported discoverer of this phenomena, reported himself. Shortness of breath, flu like symptoms shortly after exposure. This is fucked. I'm sure you'll agree. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, big time now. Yeah, this is. Listen, friends. Don't, don't touch stuff. [00:07:46] Speaker A: Don't touch the goop. [00:07:47] Speaker B: Don't touch the goop. That's like such a good lesson for life in general. Don't touch the goop. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Isn't it? It's like in the song. [00:07:55] Speaker B: In the song. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Don't you touch that goop from the sky. No one knows exactly. The old standard came from a Y. But don't touch the goop. You know the song. You all know the song. You're all singing along now. [00:08:12] Speaker B: Everyone's. Yeah, everyone's joining in at home. [00:08:16] Speaker A: Space goop. Listen, Sunny, right? Sunny Barcliffe, Dot E's daughter. She was obviously determined to find out what was going on here. The town. [00:08:24] Speaker B: Sure. [00:08:24] Speaker A: The town of Oakville, absolutely need to get to the bottom of this. She collected a sample of the blobs and took it to the local hospital, submitted it to the local hospital. It was examined in labs by a technician under a microscope and fuck. Fuck. Discovered what was apparently human white blood cells suspended in the material. [00:08:50] Speaker B: The. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Ah, yeah, this is all source, by the way, where I'm. This is something. The Tacoma News Tribune of August 1994. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Well, and that doesn't sound like a. Like that's too weird and specific for it to be like a thing. Someone would come up. [00:09:07] Speaker A: This ain't just some shit. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah. If you were gonna make up what this was, human white blood cells would not be your go to. [00:09:14] Speaker A: That's right. That's right, that's right. This entire thing made an episode of unsolved mysteries in 1997. Right. This is a nice, very well documented event. The, the, the. The news spreads. The sample gets forwarded from there to the Washington State Department of Health, right? Where a microbiologist of the name Mike McDowell examined closer and found two different bacterial strains in cultures that had been grown from these blobs, right? One by the name of Pseudomonas florescensis. Fuck. I'm gonna take another run at that. I would ask you to cut this out. [00:09:53] Speaker B: You know I'm not gonna remember to do that. [00:09:54] Speaker A: But you fucking won't, will you? One Pseudomonas fluorescens and the other Enterobacter cloaked both bacteria common in the human digestive tract. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Sure. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Yep. [00:10:11] Speaker A: Now, interestingly, there was no nucleus in this bacteria, no nuclei. So the material itself didn't come from animal cells. This was not by like human tissue. This wasn't animal tissue. Bacteria more than animal cells make sense, kinda. [00:10:35] Speaker B: I mean, it's more like. I guess it makes sense. It's just more that, like, I don't understand, like, it's more of. I don't understand how this is happening. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Then what we've got here. What we've got here is bacteria that can be found in the human digestive tract, but is not human. [00:10:47] Speaker B: But it is not, Right? Yes. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Right. Okay, so intestinal flora I guess we're looking at here. And of course, then begins the speculation, right? Suggestions that these blobs might have been aircraft waste. So, you know. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Right. Like that would have been my first assumption because we know that it comes out in like weird, like frozen form or whatever. Like. Sure, yeah, that might be it. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Rule it out. The faa, Federal Federal Aviation Administration completely ruled that out. Aircraft waste, according to them, is very characteristically dyed blue and would have smelled of, none of which matched the Oakville goo. We've got pics of the Oakville goo, by the way, that, you know, that we can share, that you can see. Okay, But Corey, meanwhile, mean, while everyone's getting sick, while everyone's chatting and speculating, it keeps happening over the next three weeks. Weeks. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Oh, damn. [00:11:48] Speaker A: The gelatinous rain. Gelatinous rain. [00:11:53] Speaker B: Are people still touching it? [00:11:55] Speaker A: Well, you'd hope less so, right? [00:11:58] Speaker B: Like, come on, people can't still be getting sick. They have to have stopped touching the goo by now. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Don't touch the goo. But over the next three weeks, right? It keeps fucking happening at least five more times, according to the Seattle Times, at least five more instances of this death spunk falling from the sky, right? [00:12:16] Speaker B: And in each of these later, like over those three weeks, these are fresh goos. This is not leftover residual goo that someone didn't see before. [00:12:24] Speaker A: It is new, fresh instances of sky slime, okay? Over the same kind of roughly 20 mile area, over the same patch of land. [00:12:38] Speaker B: Hmm. [00:12:39] Speaker A: Every new incident brings new reports of illness. The fuck is going on here? [00:12:46] Speaker B: What the fuck is going on here, man? [00:12:48] Speaker A: What the fuck is going on here? No answers were forthcoming. So the speculation, the, the, the, you know, the science, the news, the townspeople look to history. What else has been. People were talking about the fucking Kentucky meat shower. [00:13:04] Speaker B: Sure, of course, yeah, naturally. [00:13:08] Speaker A: The same kinds of hypotheses get surfaced. Remember us talking about star jelly? Oh yeah, people were talking about star jelly. That's a kind of a folklore name for, you know, whenever strange jelly falls from the sky. Ever since the 14th century. Right. It happens in the UK, it's happened in the US star jelly gets talked about, talked about as a kind of a supernatural omen, a warning from God, from the heavens. Obviously it isn't that. Other, other, other explanations were things like amphibian spawn, you know, like so frog spawn or salamander eggs or whatever, being regurgitated by birds, slime molds after rain, kind of expanding. But in much the same way as in Kentucky, before the jelly could be properly studied, it evaporates, it dries out. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Okay, Leaving only speculation now, are there. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Like, do other jellies evaporate? Like if I put jello outside, will it evaporate? [00:14:33] Speaker A: What? Like as in if you make up a batch of jelly. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:38] Speaker A: And then leave it outside in it. [00:14:40] Speaker B: Leave it outside in its gelatinous form? [00:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it Will it evaporate. [00:14:44] Speaker B: Interesting. I'm trying to think of like. Well, I guess, yeah, like something that is in jelly form. I don't know what state of matter that is. Plasma, I don't know what that is. [00:14:58] Speaker A: But I think the difference between this and your traditional edible jelly, or jello, as you might would say, are that jello is set, isn't it? It's set in a gelatinous kind of stable form, whereas the Oakville. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah, like how does it get into this form, into jelly form and then evaporate that quickly? [00:15:22] Speaker A: Well, therein is just one strand of the mystery, you know. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:15:29] Speaker A: And let's. You know, for new listeners, for those not steeped in joag law, let's talk about the Kentucky meat shower of 1876 in that case. Similarly, chunks of a more kind of meat like substance rained from the sky over Bath county in Kentucky. But again, no definitive cause was ever found. The closest we got. [00:15:53] Speaker B: And they ate it. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Indeed they did. [00:15:56] Speaker B: The scientists ate the meat. [00:15:59] Speaker A: Several people just picked up the fucking sky meat and decided to, to try it. Closest they got to an, to an explanation for that was, was it vulture spirit? [00:16:12] Speaker B: It was vulture vomit. Yeah, I think that was what it turned out to be. But just why you don't eat the goo? [00:16:19] Speaker A: That was the most acceptable or accepted theory in Kentucky that vultures, who were kind of a symptom, a characteristic of a particular breed of vulture is that when you shock them, startle them into flight, they'll all have A kind of mass Earl vomiting incident. But that isn't what happened here. That is not what this was. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Okay? Yeah. [00:16:42] Speaker A: This was a completely unidentified and unidentifiable illness causing repeated phenomena that had, and to this day has no explanation. [00:16:57] Speaker B: Mark Lewis. [00:16:58] Speaker A: Sorry, mate. Sorry, mate. Fucking get in touch with the ghost of Robert Stack and get him to finish the job. Right. Because you're not gonna get this one tied up. No final explanation has ever been found for the Oakville Space Jizz incident, which I'm calling it, and. Yeah, go ahead. [00:17:20] Speaker B: Well, I was gonna say this has, like, the hallmarks of, like, the kind of thing, like, you know, when I was talking about the cattle abduction. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:28] Speaker B: And how people sort of born out of a, like, a mistrust of the government that they absolutely should have had, you know, started thinking, like, government conspiracy was involved in it. And one of the things that, like, once, like, 30 years later, they could, like, FOIA what had happened. Like, the documents talked about, like, how the government had, like, just accidentally released a gas that killed, like, a field of, like, thousands of sheep. [00:17:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:17:57] Speaker B: But, like, didn't admit to it until, like, later on, like, 30 years later, they did a FOIA and got the information. It was like, that's what happened. The government didn't say they did it. It was just, like, mysteriously, thousands of sheep drop dead. And, like, this has that kind of, like, thing where it's like, this has biological material in it that sounds like it was somehow, like, bioengineered if it didn't come from a human, but was human, biological material. That it's like, when enough time has passed that we can get those documents, we're gonna find out, like, it was some dumb mistake, some guy, like, released into Washington by accident over weeks, over separate instances. [00:18:43] Speaker A: And, you know, like I said, no explanation's ever been given. The case was just quietly kind of closed by the health Department. The samples all degraded over time. And I think the best way to wrap this up is Sunny herself. Sunny Barclift, as we spoke about earlier on, she was Dottie's daughter. She was. She took a kind of a lead in much of the investigating. She was. She wanted to know what was making her mum so ill, you know? [00:19:11] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. [00:19:12] Speaker A: And I'll end on a quote from her. From her. She said sometimes things happen that you simply can't explain. And that's what really frightens people. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker A: Listen, what's Joe Agru number one? [00:19:35] Speaker B: You know, it's true. JOAG rule number one, Never safe, man. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:19:44] Speaker B: Yes, please do. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:19:49] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:19:53] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex. [00:19:55] Speaker B: Cannibal received worst comes to worst. Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking. I'm gonna let it. [00:20:06] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:20:08] Speaker A: I think you feel great about it. [00:20:12] Speaker B: Ugh. Mark Lewis, you and your mysteries. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Listen, it's an unsolved mystery. Maybe that's a pivot for us. Maybe that's where we need to go. [00:20:20] Speaker B: I don't know. I deeply disagree with that assessment. [00:20:25] Speaker A: All right, we'll just dig us in. We're kind of doing like this then. Listen, friends, it can. Oh God, it can be tempting, can't it, to just give up. Right, okay, it's very tempting. It can be, yes, Generally it can be tempting to look at the data points, you know, and to look at the charts and the graphs and to see the erosion of rights and to see the collapse of ecosystems and structure, social structure and supply chains and to look at the inexorable fucking grab for growth and profit that capitalism fucking tries to wring from every last one of us. And to watch living standards decline and to watch fucking attention spans dwindle and war and fucking the fucking right wing fascist fucking fringe encroaching on the day to day normality that we've all taken for granted up to now. It could be tempting to look at all that and to give up, can't it? [00:21:36] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Welcome to Jack of all graves. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for that. [00:21:47] Speaker A: That's it. That's all I got. Welcome, friends, welcome. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Listen, we were talking before this, though, you know, about. In spite of all of this, you know, just cool things like going outside and I've been walking around enjoying the cherry blossoms and whatnot in my neighborhood. And we determined, I believe that, you know, this is. This is one of the things about being alive is you walk out there and you don't know if you're walking into a shit show or you're walking into the cherry blossoms. But it's part of the experience. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah, completely. You know, just like that first 20 minutes I'm hoping is brought home. You could open your door to a pleasant summer evening, you know, balmy air sweeping across your face. [00:22:31] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:22:32] Speaker A: Or you could just get hit in the face by a chunk of unidentified bacterial. Atmospheric space jizz. You just don't know. And that's thrilling. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Makes you think. [00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah, isn't it? Isn't that fucking thrilling? [00:22:45] Speaker B: Almost thrilling. Right? [00:22:46] Speaker A: Puts a spring in your step. [00:22:48] Speaker B: Listen. Yeah. Some space space jizz would really spice things up, I think. You know, we've all become accustomed to a certain degree of the horrors. And I think a little bit of space jizz is what we need right now. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Just a little bit. Just something left field, tiny bit. Just like a different type of horror might be nice at this point. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Yeah. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:06] Speaker B: So you know, whoever's in charge. [00:23:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So. Not to you, though, listener. No, no, no, no, no. Corry and I wish you. [00:23:14] Speaker B: Of course not. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Nothing but peaceful evenings, warm drinks, nice snacks, good entertainment, A loving family, employment that fulfills and rewards you. And, you know, your continued support and obedience. That's what we would love. Nothing. [00:23:32] Speaker B: That's all we ask. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's all we ask. But we hope you're well. Corey. Welcome back. [00:23:36] Speaker B: Thank you. It is lovely to be back. [00:23:39] Speaker A: You take one fucking week off, and what do I do? I end up hunched in my fucking home office doing the silliest things. [00:23:48] Speaker B: I really enjoyed this process because afterwards, I mean, I appreciated the effort that you put into this whole thing. Kept you up way past your bedtime, working on it. You. You were dedicated to getting this done and getting it right and all of that kind of stuff. And then I edited it, and you had told me that you clapped every time, you know, you made a mistake in this, which, you know, I was like, okay, I'll edit it. I'll listen for the claps or whatever. And one of the great things about editing this was how increasingly unhinged your reactions to getting things wrong became from sort of like just sort of a clap. Clear your throat, do it again. To, like, clap. Do a dab. God, to, like, clap. Manic laughter, Move on. [00:24:45] Speaker A: It was a load of fun. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was a good time editing this thing. And if you have not listened yet to last week's reading from Mark, I highly recommend it. This one, you know, we all love a Mark reading. This one goes above and beyond with voice work and things like that. It's a good long one. Keep you on a long drive to work or whatever. Yep, you got. You got Marco reading, so check that out. [00:25:09] Speaker A: But just super quick, give us a little capsule of your break then. How was. How was Japan? [00:25:13] Speaker B: Oh, it was. It was delightful. It was a whirlwind. Did Tokyo and the Star Wars Celebration. My sister had never gone to, like, one of Kyo's work things where you get to, like, go backstage and all that kind of stuff. And she was like. She loved it. Getting to, like, wear the little badge and walk around and do stuff other people can't do and go through all the tunnels and, you know, see the step and repeats and the. All the monitors and all that stuff. Get good seats for everything. So that was very fun. Then we went to Korea, which I've never been to Korea before, and that was. I mean, the food in Korea is pretty much unmatched. [00:25:55] Speaker A: That is that right? [00:25:57] Speaker B: Man, Korean food is. Yeah, it's. It's probably the best cuisine in the world. So I was, yeah, in heaven the whole time eating all the things. It was just. It was a fun little time. But I'm happy to be, like, back with my dog and trying to, like, recover from jet lag. Because the jet lag coming from Asia is so difficult. It's like. It's like the opposite end thing. So, like, you know, right now it's 5:20pm which means it's like 6:20am you. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Struggle with, like, daylight savings anyway, don't you? [00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the merest. Right? So. But it's like you're flipping it. So, like, what was my nighttime last week or four days ago or whatever is the middle of the day now? And so middle of the day, I'm like, it is. I should be asleep. And then when I go to bed, I wake up at like 3am like, it's the middle of the afternoon. So I'm struggling a little bit. I think today I'm kind of crossing the bridge a little bit. I'm a little. I'm a little exhausted. But not like. [00:27:10] Speaker A: But you're almost back. You're almost back. [00:27:12] Speaker B: Which. So the other day, I think I've mentioned this before, my local coffee shop around the corner opened up like eight months ago. Something like that. [00:27:22] Speaker A: Great one I've been to. Have I been there where we played Connect 4. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Where we played Connect 4? Yes, correct. That little place, Black owned all this, you know, just lovely. Every single seat has a outlet. Great spot. And for the past, like, since, like, Christmas, I have been going in there. And like, every other day I see this woman and I was like. I texted my friends and I was like, I am pretty sure. Michelle Alexander hangs out in my coffee shop and works in there. Michelle Alexander is the author of the New Jim Crow, which is the basis of the Ava DuVernay documentary 13th about the 13th Amendment, which basically is why slavery is not actually illegal in the United States as long as you're a prisoner. So, like, Michelle Alexander's work is, like, at the root of most of the, like, Black Lives Matter movement stuff and things like that that has been going on for, you know, the past decade or so. Like, this is where, like, a lot of people learned for the first time about what this all meant and where this came from, you know, and the history that brought us to the place we are, where, you know, the prison industrial complex is this horrifying beast that we're contending with. Michelle Alexander is one of, like, is probably the most, like, the name more people would recognize than others who have expounded upon this. And so for months, I've been like, I keep seeing Michelle Alexander. And so the other day, I went to the coffee shop, fresh off the plane, right? Like, been home for, like, eight hours. I'm, like, completely drained, you know? And I go in, I like the barista. I'm like, listen, is that Michelle Alexander? And he's like, I don't know who that is. And I was like, okay, you know, like the documentary 13th? He was like, yeah. I was like, she's like, the lady from 13th. And he's like, wait, hold on. And so I, like, show a picture. And he's like, yeah, yeah, that is her. That's for sure her. And I was like, okay. So I walk up and I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna, like, say hello or whatever today. So I walk up and I'm like, hey, sorry, are you Michelle Alexander? And she's like, yeah, I am like, great. But I was so tired that, like, I couldn't fully make words. And the first phrase that came out of my mouth was, I love the new Jim Crow. [00:29:54] Speaker A: Oh, dear. [00:29:55] Speaker B: It was like, oh, no. I mean, that's not what I meant. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Opposite of what you meant. [00:30:01] Speaker B: I do not like the new Jim Crow. That's not what I mean. I mean, I really. I like your work. Like, like, oh, God. And I kept on, like, trying to just, like, make sentences. And she was very sweet. She's like, do you live around here? And, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I, like, could not form proper words. I was like, why did I pick this day out of the last several months that I have been seeing this woman in this coffee shop? Why did I pick when I am fresh off of a plane from Korea to finally address this woman whose work has been so influential? So, you know, next time I see her Maybe I will try to, like, make up for it and be a little more coherent. [00:30:43] Speaker A: But she's a regular there. Yeah, you see that? [00:30:46] Speaker B: She's there all the time. She, like, works in there, you know. [00:30:48] Speaker A: She just take another run at her, have another go. [00:30:51] Speaker B: Just. Hey, I can speak English. [00:30:54] Speaker A: Let's try that again. [00:30:55] Speaker B: Yeah, but now I've met Michelle Alexander, so there's that. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Beautiful. I don't really have any stories like that around here. [00:31:06] Speaker B: Not so much. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Closest I've got was I saw Donny Osmond in our local Tesco. [00:31:14] Speaker B: What? [00:31:15] Speaker A: I'm fucking serious. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Donny Osmond was in the Bicester Tesco? [00:31:19] Speaker A: He fucking was. And upon going home and kind of researching online why the fuck Donny Osmond would have been. [00:31:25] Speaker B: Why would he have been there? [00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah, he was in Pando in Oxford. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Huh? [00:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And for whatever reason, he found himself in Bicester and I wanted to see him. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Surely there's, like, hotels in Oxford and things like that. What on earth was he doing? Maybe he wanted to go to the famous Bicester Village. [00:31:45] Speaker A: He might have. Yes, yes. But it was absolutely him. Donny Osmond in Tesco. Not as good as yours, and I didn't talk to him, but there we go. [00:31:54] Speaker B: That's pretty good, though. Thank you, Marco. [00:31:57] Speaker A: Yo. [00:31:59] Speaker B: It has been a minute since we have engaged in one of your favorite activities. [00:32:06] Speaker A: I. You must mean. You must. You could only mean running a watch along. That's the only thing you can possibly. [00:32:12] Speaker B: That's the only thing that could have possibly referred to. [00:32:15] Speaker A: It has to, has to be. Of course. Instantly, I knew that what you were going at. Yes, it has. And to that end, listeners, clear your calendars. If you've got Nothing on on the 10th of May, that's a week this coming Saturday. So 10th of May, let's do a watch along now. You still think that we have to run a poll? [00:32:37] Speaker B: We do, yeah. I don't think you're out of Feeble's jail yet. [00:32:42] Speaker A: That was a long time ago. [00:32:43] Speaker B: It was not that long ago. I think. I think that there needs to be like, at least your. Your sentence has to be at least, like a year before we can trust you to. To pick on your own to do like an executive decision. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Fine. But there's only so long I can apologize for that, you know, listen, you. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Just need to do your time. [00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:09] Speaker B: You know, restorative justice. You've done that. Yes, exactly. [00:33:13] Speaker A: All right, so listen, watch along on the 10th of May, friends. I've already got a theme. It's Going to be sci fi horror, Right. I'd love it to be not set on Earth. Space horror, please, with the emphasis on horror. Griblies would be great. You know, barren worlds, derelict spacecraft, tensions frayed in ships that are, you know, in disrepair, dripping pipes, engineering woes, the cold. [00:33:45] Speaker B: Literally just describing Alien. [00:33:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I've seen. I've been watching a lot of Alien of late and I'd like some more of that, please. But think, watch along. You know the vibe. [00:33:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:55] Speaker A: It doesn't have to be the greatest movie in the world. [00:33:57] Speaker B: No, it doesn't. [00:33:58] Speaker A: You know what I mean? Maybe. I'm sure Anna Martin would have some lovely suggestions up her sleeve. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:05] Speaker A: But, yes, watch along. On 10 May, Space Horror is the theme. Have a little think about it. [00:34:10] Speaker B: Yeah, Give us your suggestions. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. If you've got anything that meets the criteria, fits the bill, hits the notes. I will put a poll up, I'll put a fucking post up on the old Facey over the next couple of days and let's get a discussion going, let's get a conversation going and let's gather Once more on the 10th of May. Yes, in the year of our fucking Lord Jesus Christ, 2025. And let's get out, let's get together and use that discord again. [00:34:38] Speaker B: That dead Pope coverage is really starting to get all up in your head, huh? [00:34:43] Speaker A: Well, sometimes life is very interesting, isn't it? Sometimes life is very, very fun. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Did anyone have the Pope in their dead Deadpool? [00:34:55] Speaker A: Every single fucking year someone picks the Pope. Yeah, but not this year. [00:35:00] Speaker B: That's wild. Astounded. Everyone's like, surely he's safe. Not in a year of jubilee. [00:35:08] Speaker A: Every fucking year someone picks the Pope. This year, no one picks the Pope. The Pope dies. But in. In an absolute wonderful piece of, you know, providence kismet. On the day the Pope died. Died. My darling brother and I were at Ghost in Birmingham. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:35:30] Speaker A: With Fan Zone Access, which, you know, as those who know the Ghost experience will know, it's a museum of previous Ghost frontmen, previous Papa Emeriti, just basically dead Popes in glass caskets. [00:35:45] Speaker B: It's perfect. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So on the day of the Pope's death, you know, we were watching the most theatrically satanic band on earth and looking at dead Popes. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Looking at dead Popes. It's beautiful. [00:35:56] Speaker A: On the day of the death of the Pope. Absolutely wonderful bit of providence. [00:36:00] Speaker B: I also said to you while I was watching some of the coverage the other day, because it's, you know, I watched like, the local news for several hours every day, and it was unavoidable. It's like, mostly Pope funeral coverage for two days straight. And I was saying that they kept talking about how, like, the Pope's body had been on display and people could go through and see it and all that stuff. But I was like, but they're cowards. They won't actually show the body. You know, all that. And then on Friday morning, Saturday morning, whenever. I guess it was yesterday. Time has no meaning right now. But so yesterday morning, when they were showing the full funeral and stuff, they kept showing, like, full dead Pope. And I was very surprised, like, face and everything. The whole dead. I mean, he wasn't looking great those last days alive either, so. Pretty much the same. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:53] Speaker B: Pretty much how he looked when you saw him in these past few months. So. Yeah. But I was, you know, very shocked that American television put Pope corpse on. [00:37:07] Speaker A: Good for them. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Good for them. You know, sometimes you gotta. [00:37:10] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Good for them. So, yeah, I guess the Conclave are doing their thing. [00:37:15] Speaker B: The Conclave. We're doing that thing. I watched Conclave for a third time, you know, just to really get in the zone for what is happening right now, by the way. I watched it on the plane this time. And so I had headphones on, which obviously I don't normally do when I watch movies. And let me tell you, the sound design on Conclave is like, next level. Like, holy shit. The sound design on that is something else. So, you know, if you're the kind of person who watches things on a phone or a laptop or whatever, or just is trying not to wake up your kids, hey, Conclave actually very much rewards listening with your headphones on. [00:37:58] Speaker A: It's fascinating. It has. It's one that I want to get to anyway. You know, from time to time, I get struck with this. Seized by this desire to watch a capital R real movie. [00:38:10] Speaker B: Right, Totally. [00:38:12] Speaker A: And Conclave is certainly one that I want to get to. And if you've seen it three times, you know, I'll probably hate it. [00:38:19] Speaker B: I think. I think you'll enjoy it. It's got a very 90s talky thriller vibe to it. Yeah, I think. I think it's pretty up your alley. I can't say for sure, but, you know, I think it's a. It's a fun watch. Every time I watch it, I like it more than last time that I watched it. [00:38:38] Speaker A: All right, so. [00:38:39] Speaker B: So on that note, why don't we talk about the many things that we have watched lots in the past There. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Is much to discuss here. [00:38:46] Speaker B: I think it's very funny that while I was away, because of the time difference and because you took a week off from work while your family was on vacation, we actually managed to watch more movies together than we have in a minute. [00:39:04] Speaker A: So what was the last thing we spoke about? Did we speak of. Hold your breath. Is that the last thing we spoke about? [00:39:09] Speaker B: I don't think so. Because I went back and like, I remember watching this movie. I remember saying to you, oh, it has Sarah Paulson. There's going to be a lot of screaming. And I remember. I don't remember much else about this movie. I also remember cousin Richie is in it. I remember, like, no details. [00:39:36] Speaker A: So let me try and sketch this one out then. So old world America, by which I mean, what are we talking? [00:39:44] Speaker B: It's the dust bowl. For those of us who 40s, 30s, 20s. 30s. Yeah. 30s. [00:39:50] Speaker A: All right. Oklahoma. And it's dusty as fuck. I don't know why. Why was it so dusty? It's a sentence. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Look up the dust bowl is the answer to that. [00:40:07] Speaker A: And you've got a. So vibe wise the others meets hereditary. Feels like where we're at things. This movie has absolutely in its favor. Is my bestie even Moss Bakra? [00:40:24] Speaker B: Oh, God, yeah, that's the one. He's great. Yep. [00:40:29] Speaker A: I love him so much. Just seeing his face brings back all of the things I love the most about the bear. I. I find him just the most versatile, believable, fucking relatable fucking performer. I love him. I love the guy. And I'll. I'll watch anything he's in, but he's a spooky pasta. He's a spooky pasta who appears out the floor of somebody's fucking house and we never quite really know why. [00:40:56] Speaker B: I obviously, like I said, I don't remember a whole lot about this movie. So I don't remember if it's. I feel like there's like kind of a resolution to why that happened, but I don't remember what it was. But he does come out of the floor. Yeah. [00:41:09] Speaker A: So listen, Sarah Paulson, her husband is going to wait. A war maybe. [00:41:15] Speaker B: No, he's working. Yeah, he's. [00:41:17] Speaker A: There you go. He's working. And the fucking secrets of the community and spookiness within the dust all come to bear. And it's all very tense and oppressive and spooky and weird and there's dust. [00:41:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Claustrophobic. Yeah. [00:41:35] Speaker A: And yes. And at some point, Sarah Paulson does do hysterical white woman things. [00:41:40] Speaker B: She does. Yes. You don't cast Sarah Paulson if you don't want white woman hysterics. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Yeah. If you want a non Caucasian, level headed performance. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:52] Speaker A: That's not what you get from her. It is very derivative. It's a derivative ass movie. It's all. It's good, it's a nice three stars, but it's. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Right, like, this is what it's like. Why? I think it didn't make like a huge impact on me, but at the end of it, I was like, yeah, hey, I don't regret watching that. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yes. And neither will you. Don't seek it out. Don't carve, don't. Don't, you know, take. Don't quit your job for it. [00:42:15] Speaker B: But if you're flipping through things, don't get. Think of what to watch. And you're like, hold your breath, hold your breath. Yeah, yeah. All right, it's on now. [00:42:25] Speaker A: I will speak of thanatomorphose. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Okay. Not familiar. [00:42:33] Speaker A: It doesn't surprise me that you aren't familiar. Thanatomorphose. What a title. I'm gonna spell it. T H A N A T O M O R P H O S E. Thanatomorphose. Why and how did I come to this film? It's Canadian. It's from 2012. [00:42:55] Speaker B: All right? [00:42:56] Speaker A: And for whatever reason, I was in a body horror frame of mind. [00:43:04] Speaker B: Okay, that's not out of the ordinary for you? [00:43:06] Speaker A: No, certainly not. It's. It's one of the greatest of all types of horror. Thanatomorphose. Good God. Good God. I don't even know where to begin. So, plot wise, this is, this is. This is. This is a Kafka kind of plot right out of nowhere. [00:43:33] Speaker B: Could probably get that from the title. [00:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Of course, for. For reasons never explained, and for reasons unknown to her, a young woman in a unfulfilling abusive relationship begins to rot. She begins to rot from the inside. She begins to itch. She begins to decay. She begins to suppurate. [00:44:06] Speaker B: What does that mean? [00:44:07] Speaker A: It means she begins to seep. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Oh, gross. I wish I hadn't asked. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Wounds don't heal. Hair, nails fall away. [00:44:17] Speaker B: I think. I think we get the idea. I'm less into body horror than you are. [00:44:23] Speaker A: You get the idea, but I don't think you get the impact, Right? Because this is a movie right out there on the edge of what you've seen on a screen before. Okay? And when, when, when I'm telling you this, I want you to believe it. This is a film that is on the fringes of what you've seen horror doing on a screen. [00:44:46] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:49] Speaker A: You know, it isn't, it isn't a fucking, it isn't a great movie. It's, it's, it looks cheap. The performances are of kind of film student kind of level. [00:44:57] Speaker B: Sure. [00:44:58] Speaker A: But what it, what thanatomorphose is, is unflinching. It puts the decay and the, the, the kind of soft skin and fluids and hair in the middle of the screen and it doesn't move. It's, it's unflinchingly sexual. The decay is. You one, you know, has to feel that. It, it's, you know, this woman continues to masturbate in the face of the fact that her body is falling apart. She is taken advantage of by, by, you know, friends and acquaintances and rots and rots and continues to rot. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Ah, this is like my nightmare movie. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Oh, look, I'll say it, I'll say, you know a similar line that I say often. I will always, always, always go to bat when someone goes to the edge. When someone really, really goes that far. I love it. It's a thrill when someone really pushes what is and isn't possible on a screen. And Thanatomorphos for me does that. It is an absolute work of exploration on the fringe of body horror. It's. Oh, it was right up my street and I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend it to anyone looking for a laugh. Good time. [00:46:36] Speaker B: So a very specific audience for that. And if that's you, yes, there you go. [00:46:42] Speaker A: I will also, I will also very quickly talk of the Untamed. [00:46:47] Speaker B: The Untamed? [00:46:48] Speaker A: Oh, man. I think I, I watched Thanatomorphos after watching the Untamed because I was clearly in a body horror place. And the Untamed, I think it's Mexican. [00:47:00] Speaker B: Okay. [00:47:02] Speaker A: Again, a lady in a deeply unsatisfying, you know, fringe abusive marriage. The Untamed is another piece of body horror with a cosmic kind of angle to it. As much an intimate kind of family drama of a family going to shit. Our leading lady, her husband is having a homosexual affair with the kind of partner of her sister, I believe. But there's a cabin out in the woods with a couple who are hosting a fucking space, being nice. And it's a, it's a sexy space being. It's a sexy fucking space squid. And you can fuck the squid, right? [00:47:55] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the couple are like actively recruiting for people to come and fuck the squid in their cabin. [00:48:02] Speaker B: Feels like there's consent issues around that. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, there's loads of all of that kind of things in this movie. In the Untamed, what if a explicit, violent family soap opera had an interdimensional fuck squid in it? [00:48:20] Speaker B: It's a question I'm always asking. [00:48:23] Speaker A: Yeah, well, ask no more, right? [00:48:26] Speaker B: Ask and answer, thanks to you with answers. [00:48:31] Speaker A: The Untamed is the fucking answer to that question. Beautifully reserved in what it shows you and what it doesn't. It shows you a lot on a. On a human scale. It's very explicit. You know, nudity, straight, gay sex are portrayed unflinchingly, but it hides the fuck squid. The fuck squid keeps under, you know, under wraps. Keeps up its sleeve until it plays its card and shows you the squid. And it's almost like manga. What you see interesting tentacles and teeth and, you know, quills contorting and wrapping around and penetrating. It's quite intense. But again, again, it ain't like nothing you would have seen recently. You can't really draw many comparisons between these two movies. The Untamed and Thanatomorphos, both four easy four stars for me. Both really fucking really, really engaging and really surprising and unexpectedly captivating films. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Well, there you go again. I'm not entirely sure who that audience is, but I know they're listening to us. So, yeah, you know, if either of those appeal to you, there you go. [00:49:55] Speaker A: I would love it if, if nothing else from this week's episode, if. If any of our listeners would watch either the Untamed or Thanatomorphos and hit us up and report back. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, please do. If the. If you can, if that sounds like something you either are interested in or willing to subject yourself to, please let us know how that goes for you. [00:50:19] Speaker A: Before the others that we watch together. I'll mention Black Bag, Steven Soderbergh's marital spy thriller. Hell, what a. What a fucking fun. Tight little film. So short, so brief, 90 minutes. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I was very surprised by that. And I keep hearing great things about it. It's one of those things I just, like, am never in the mood for. But everything I've heard about it is, like, great. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Everyone seems to like it. Yeah. And absolutely, rightly so. So, so smart, you know, and stylish and slick and it gives you everything you need without spelling anything out. It doesn't write, you know, it doesn't fucking serve things up on a plate. It just. It just gives you everything in this, really. It just treats you with respect. [00:51:13] Speaker B: Sure. [00:51:14] Speaker A: Right. Black Bag is a film that values your time and is grateful for your Attention and gives you what you want. Oh, God, what a cracking little run of movies I had there, man. The Untamed, Thanatomorphos and Black Back. Oh, wonderful stuff. [00:51:32] Speaker B: I've. I've had an interesting sort of mix of flims as well. Before we get to the other ones that we watched together, I finally saw Kneecap. I don't need to, you know, tell everyone. Kneecap is obvious, obviously. Sort of the runaway hit last year, and it is every bit as great and fun as people said it was. So, you know, I big time recommend Kneecap. That's a. It's a cool little story, Mark. Lots of fun drug use that I think will appeal to you because these guys really know drugs. You're not gonna get those ones where you're like, ugh, that's not what it's like, ye. These guys. Because what's incredible about Kneecap is it is actually the guys from Kneecap playing themselves in this, and especially the dj. I was like, oh, they must have cast an actor to play this guy. And it's not. It is the real actual dj, he's just really that good. Yeah. And the other guys are good too. It's just like, he really kind of stands out as the one that you're like, oh, that guy has to. That guy has to have been an actor. Right. But as such, these are guys who do a lot of drugs making a movie about their own drug use. So it's, you know, I think you will appreciate their adherence to the fidelity of that, because I've seen other people comment on it as well. I watched Hollow man for the first time. Great. [00:53:04] Speaker A: Yeah, great. I've seen Hollow man twice and loved it both times. It's been a while. It's been a while. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say it's. It's been a while since you watched. It's a pretty irredeemable movie. And the one thing I will say is at least Verhoven hates it too. Yeah. Oh, it is. It is bad. It is so. So rapey and exploitative and just. It is. It's on top of, like, just everything about it being poorly made. It's. Yeah. It's a bad movie with. That's very misogynistic and let me just feel this out. [00:53:47] Speaker A: Let me just kind of explore this a little bit. [00:53:49] Speaker B: Yeah, please do. Again, for those who've never, like, just as, you know, what is this? Hollow man starred Kevin Bacon as a creep, basically, who is also a scientist working with a team that is trying, for whatever reason, to create like invisibility. Yeah. And they are testing this out on, like, monkeys and things like that. And then, of course, corporate pressures come into play and things like that, and they test it out on him, and he becomes stuck as this invisible guy who then uses that to do horrible things to women. [00:54:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So are you telling me that rather than it being a movie about a guy doing predatory, abusive, you know, horrific fucking, you know, sexual perversions, is the movie itself misogynistic, or is it about a misogynist? [00:54:52] Speaker B: It's both. It's very much both of those things. It's a thing where, you know, it's sort of like, clearly, he's a creep and you're not rooting for him or anything. But also, the way that it treats the women in the movie doesn't afford them any particular empathy or agency or personality or anything like that. They are just fodder to get raped, you know, and they're, you know. Yeah, it's just you're watching a guy constantly violate women in ways that are, like, set up to titillate the audience rather than repulse them, you know? [00:55:31] Speaker A: Yes, that's what I was asking. Yeah. Yeah. [00:55:33] Speaker B: They want it to be a sexy movie, but you have to ignore the fact that you're, like. The reason you're seeing this woman's titties is because there's an invisible man opening her shirt and playing with them. Like, things like that, you know, like, it doesn't really, like. And there's, you know, a weird, horrific rape scene that, like, apparently there's even elements of this that were, like, cut from it, too. Like, there's a woman who he's been watching strip and stuff like that from his apartment. That's kind of how we learn he's a creep in this movie. And he goes. And once he goes. Gets invisible. He goes and rapes her. And, like, that's it. We never. We don't hear anything more from her, see her again or anything like that. And apparently he filmed a scene of, like, the aftermath of that and, like, her, you know, sobbing and, like, you know, all these kinds of things dealing with it. It's not in the movie. So it's just kind of like a random moment where you get to, like, you know, see this sexy woman who's about to be raped. You know, instead of, like, actually being like, yeah, this is a horrific thing. It's just. It's bad. And Verhoeven himself says it's the only movie he's ever made that he thinks is irredeemable it's just. It's just trash. It's not good. So I do not recommend Hollow Man. [00:56:45] Speaker A: Yeah, fair enough. Again, you know, like I said, it has been a long, long time. [00:56:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Leads me to ponder time. I feel like it's one of those things that, like, we wouldn't have questioned as much because it came out in a moment where, like, everything was like this. [00:56:57] Speaker A: I remember seeing it, so I saw it at the movies. Went to the cinema to see it. Is. Are there any examples then? Because we can agree that movies about bad people doing bad things can be not bad movies. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, that's. It's not necessarily exploitative just to have that as. [00:57:18] Speaker A: Right. So what are the examples? Theme of movies who approach, you know, abhorrent deeds with empathy and balance. Do you. I mean, are there any that leap to mind? [00:57:34] Speaker B: Well, I think of, like, it's tricky because you can have people who make like, say, like anything Scorsese makes. Right. That like, somehow is about bad people and you can empathize with bad people, but also you're aware of, like, them doing horrific things that ruin people's lives and stuff like that. I feel like I was just watching this something. Oh, actually a movie that I watched last night, one of my classic Corrigan old movies. I think it's from 1967. I watched the Incident and it's a movie. It was. Who's the older? Sheen. Martin Sheen. Yes, Martin Sheen. His first movie. And it's about two, like, hoodlum guys who terrorize a whole bunch of people on a subway train. They basically lock them into the car and, you know, harass them and brutalize them and all this kind of stuff over the course of this 90 minute movie or whatever. And there's a lot of stuff in it that is dealing with, like, misogyny and racism and all this kind of stuff in ways that, like, if you were to take it at face value, it's like, oh, this movie has, like, a lot of misogyny and racism in it. But it's also doing it in such a way that, like, very much, you know who you are supposed to empathize with. And you know that any instance of them doing this is something that they are commenting on a societal problem in doing so. So I think, you know, there's plenty of movies like the Incident and things like that that show really horrible people, but there is no part of the gaze that makes you think. Yeah, right. That there is anything hot or, you know, appealing about what they're doing. [00:59:30] Speaker A: I do vividly it's one of. When I think back to watching Hollow Man, I do think of the titty squeeze scene, right? [00:59:39] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like, the first thing you're gonna, like, think of. And you're not necessarily like, ooh. Like, you don't mean to be like, oh, rape hot. [00:59:48] Speaker A: No, not at all. Not at all. [00:59:49] Speaker B: But rather, it's framed in a way to, like, get you excited. It's not framed in a way to be horrific. You know, like, that's. You know, there's ways you could shoot a scene like that. [01:00:02] Speaker A: That pulse you remember feeling from that was that. It was more a effects showcase. [01:00:12] Speaker B: Sure. Yes. [01:00:12] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [01:00:13] Speaker B: Which is movie, is that? In a lot of ways, yes. The movie is very much showing off, you know, the CGI capabilities of 2000 or whatever when it was made. So it definitely is doing that. But also is that when you do a, you know, demonstration of your effects capabilities. Wow. He is raping her really realistically. Okay, cool. So I don't suggest Hollow man, nor does its director. I also. I went back. Another one of my old movies that I watched was Bunny Lake is Missing, which, you know, I have heard a lot about, but without actually knowing anything about, which I was like, it's kind of like when I watched Eyes Without a Face, and I was like, I've heard of this a million times, but I've never actually, like, I don't know anything about it. And that was the case with Bunny Lake is Missing, which, you know, the basic premise being this woman drops her kid off at daycare. She is. She's an American woman who is living in France or England, somewhere in Europe, I think it might be England, but she has moved abroad and is starting her child at this new school, drops her off, and when she comes to pick her up in the afternoon, the school is like, we have never had a student by that name. [01:01:33] Speaker A: Oh, no. [01:01:34] Speaker B: What you're talking about. And so you're sort of the one. [01:01:38] Speaker A: Thing you don't want to happen, Right? [01:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're following this woman and trying to, like. And her brother trying to find her child, Bunny. And, you know, of course, you have this sort of question of, like, you know, is she an unreliable narrator? Does this kid exist? Like, is there a conspiracy going on? Like, why does no one know who this child is? Is, like, everybody in on it, what's going on? And, yeah, it's. It's a fun little flick. Very stressful the whole time that you're watching it. I recommend Bunny Lake is missing big time. I watched Opus. Opus. [01:02:19] Speaker A: Why do I know that? [01:02:21] Speaker B: Absolutely baffling movie starring Ayo IO. Edebiri? [01:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I saw Opus as well, actually. Did I not? [01:02:29] Speaker B: Did you watch it? [01:02:30] Speaker A: I did watch Opus, yes. [01:02:32] Speaker B: What is that movie? It is so bizarre. It feels like a parody, but it's not like. It feels like if someone were to make a movie making fun of a 24 movies, this is kind of what you'd get, but it doesn't know it's doing that. And so you've got, like, you know, John Malkovich playing a pop star turned cult leader, and he makes, like, like, weird, like, industrial almost music that, like, would never be popular, but they're trying to, like, play that off as if he was the biggest star in the world. Just bonkers. And because he's the biggest star in the world. He is. He has now started a cult, essentially, that, you know, she goes to, like, interview him for his first interview in, like, 20 years or something like that, and sort of gets sucked into this crazy cult that is happening. And every decision made in this movie is just inexplicable. [01:03:46] Speaker A: They're in a very interesting phase. Currently a 24, aren't they? [01:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:52] Speaker A: I don't know if it's a kind of a land grab for commercial profile or what, but what with Opus, this unicorn movie. [01:04:02] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [01:04:03] Speaker A: The Crystal Lake thing that they're doing. [01:04:05] Speaker B: Oh, is that them? [01:04:07] Speaker A: Yes, it is. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Huh. [01:04:09] Speaker A: Okay. Interesting show. [01:04:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:11] Speaker A: Very interesting phase that they're in. Quirky still. [01:04:18] Speaker B: But, like, leaning a little. Blumhouse. [01:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. That's what I'm. That's what I'm struggling with. [01:04:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Definitely. [01:04:25] Speaker A: Definitely leaning into neon kind of territory. [01:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's more. More apt. Yeah. And it's bizarre. It's bizarre. It feels this movie is, like, very much an identity crisis movie of, like, not entirely sure what is being made, which makes for, like, some just, like. There's a fun to it in the kind of like, just uncanniness of it all, where you're just like, I don't know why any of this is happening. And none of this makes any sense. And so, like, part of it is, like, when you kind of get on board for the ride, you're like, okay, but it is a. It's not good. And it is. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Yeah. You watch the whole thing kind of like. [01:05:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Okay. [01:05:08] Speaker A: Always quite detached. Ari Aster is on the way back. He's got a new one on the way. Did you hear? [01:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. What's the. What's the. I know, I've read about this. [01:05:17] Speaker A: Eddington. [01:05:18] Speaker B: Eddington. Right. I know that whatever this was did not appeal to me at all. I read what it was about and I was like, yep, no, I'm out. [01:05:25] Speaker A: I've. I'm. I'm trying my best to learn or know nothing. [01:05:30] Speaker B: Sure. [01:05:32] Speaker A: So all. Yeah. All I know is that he's got one. I think maybe something. [01:05:36] Speaker B: Something come in. The other thing that I watched, obviously is Sinners. [01:05:44] Speaker A: Okay. [01:05:45] Speaker B: Which I went and saw in IMAX as everyone instructed me to do, and that was the correct decision. If you have IMAX near you sinners, this is, this is the way to go. [01:05:56] Speaker A: But whatever way, you've fully brought me back around to wanting to Sinners because I was simply. [01:06:02] Speaker B: Yeah, you were in like meh mode about it. [01:06:05] Speaker A: Simply because every time I've been to the movies in the last six months, I've seen the goddamn trailer for Sinners. And at, at this point, I'm just kind of bored of it. I feel like I've seen it already, but apparently. [01:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah, you've not. Yeah. You have not actually seen the movie from that. I mean, there are things about that trailer that it's like, yeah, it kind of would have been nice if they hadn't showed certain cards, but it doesn't. Doesn't take away from it in, in any way. And it is, it is a movie. Like I felt like Nicole Kidman watching that flick. Just like, literally there was a point at which, like, my jaw actually was like dropped. I had to be like, close it. You know, like that's. It's weird to sit in the movie theater looking like that. You got to close your mouth core again. But it was like, there's some stuff in there that is absolutely mind blowing and stuff that you've never seen before. Colin was saying last night at book club that it's like the biggest opening for like an original movie in like a decade. [01:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I read today that it had the smallest second week drop off. [01:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it was like 6% or something like that, which is crazy. [01:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Really, really good longevity to it, which is great. [01:07:19] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So if you, if you have not seen Sinners yet, you gotta get out there and go see it. Like, if nothing else to support that. An original movie is making such huge waves, you know, in a horror. But it is doing things that you have. It's great because it is a mix of some really great styles and movies and things like that that you love already. And then it's just taking it to a place that you actually haven't seen before. So taking something that like knows its influences and is working with them and then just tweaks them into its own thing in really great ways. [01:07:58] Speaker A: Completely brought me back around. And I've got. I've got a little slot in my head all carved out for when I can see it as well. [01:08:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm gonna go see it again tomorrow. [01:08:07] Speaker A: There's some stuff we can smash through here. Let's just. [01:08:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:08:10] Speaker A: Let's just quickly disregard the Woman in the Yard. [01:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah. As everybody else as. Woof. [01:08:17] Speaker A: That's a waste of nothing to see here. Nothing. Nothing at all to see here. The fun. The best thing I can possibly say about the Woman in the Yard was that I chuckled a little bit to myself thinking of the line, you will believe a woman can yard. That's the. That's the only thing I take away from that movie. I thought of a mildly funny line about it. Shit title, shit premise. Bland. [01:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:49] Speaker A: Again, yes, we're in a great horror renaissance, but that doesn't mean that all horror is great. [01:08:55] Speaker B: No. [01:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. No, it's not. Neither was you think it might be like. And it's like that. [01:09:01] Speaker B: It's in the title. Yeah, that's what it is. That's the whole thing. Yeah. Neither is 825 Forest Road, a particular masterpiece in this time made by the fella who made the Hell House LLC movies. It's his first non found footage movie and he should stop. I think. [01:09:25] Speaker A: What if I told you right now that I may as well not have seen that film for all the memories I've got of it for the impression it made on me. [01:09:32] Speaker B: You just kept apologizing to me the whole time. Because this was your pick in our watches. [01:09:38] Speaker A: Balance the book somewhat. [01:09:39] Speaker B: Yeah. He was like, I'm. I'm sorry. Yeah. No, this one's shit. It's got an unnecessary sort of gimmick around it of having like three chapters or whatever that are all told from a different character's perspective completely unnecessarily. So you're just kind of getting the same information over and over and over again that isn't super interesting. Also the. I didn't realize this till I was reading reviews of it that like the one of the characters is a girl whose parents have died. And this whole time I thought that this girl was like 30 and apparently she's like a high schooler just going into college. I don't know why they cast a woman who was like, not in the way that like 30 year old teenagers look. But, like, genuinely is clearly 30 in this role. But that was deeply confusing. So I didn't understand anything about the relationship between these characters. I was like, why are they treating her like this, like she's a child when she is clearly a grown woman? [01:10:44] Speaker A: I mean, every single word of it. I have not a single fucking shred of memory of this film. It made nearly a single impact on me. [01:10:52] Speaker B: Nothing you will don't do. Yeah. 825 Forest Road. Skip it. Nothing in there for you. [01:10:58] Speaker A: However. Stuck. [01:11:01] Speaker B: Stuck. [01:11:02] Speaker A: Stuck. Right. Stuck. A movie from 2007. [01:11:10] Speaker B: 2007. [01:11:11] Speaker A: 2007. Directed by none other than fucking Stuart Gordon. Stuart Gordon was working in 2007. [01:11:18] Speaker B: This is his last movie. Yeah. [01:11:20] Speaker A: In fucking Credible. For those for whom the name doesn't ring a bell. Stuart Gordon, an absolute genre fucking superhero. We are talking Reanimator Dagon from beyond. Just some. Some of the greats. One we saw quite recently, robot jocks. That was Stuart Gordon. Fortress with Christopher Lambert. Yeah, nice. [01:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:49] Speaker A: Future prison where they've got the bomb collars. Fortress. You've seen Fortress? [01:11:53] Speaker B: I don't think I have. [01:11:54] Speaker A: You got a sea Fortress me. Okay, get yourself down to the video shop. Yeah, Ring. Ring the video shop and get him to hold Fortress for you when it comes in. Right. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Sounds good. Yeah. [01:12:05] Speaker A: Because you will have a great time, Dagon. Oh, my God, I fucking love Stuart Gordon. And the. The. The fact that he was still active in 2007 absolutely blows my mind wild. And what a great film, too. [01:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. This is one that was on my radar because, you know, I went through a big Stephen Ray phase back in the day. And in fact, met him at the Belfast Film Festival. Yes. Met him twice, actually. I was, you know, met him at a screening at the Belfast Film Festival. And then I was walking near Queens College with my friend Carlos and he was outside with his son. And Carlos and I were like. And Carlos was like, I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna say fuck me, Fergus, to him. Which he did not do. But we did go up and say hello to him or whatever. But, yeah, I'm a big fan of his. So that was why this was on my radar. And it is. It's a movie about a woman who we meet at first, kind of thinking of her as like, sort of a selfless person. She's a nurse who's kind of like overworked, but seems to have a heart of gold and a passion for what she's doing. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Likes to party. [01:13:24] Speaker B: Likes to party. Goes out, gets drunk and on her way home hits a very sort of down and out man who has fallen on hard times. Sleeping rough. Yes, fallen on hard times, exactly. He's homeless at the moment and he gets stuck in her windshield and she chooses not to deal with that. [01:13:48] Speaker A: The decisions get worse and worse and worse and worse as the movie goes on. Played by Mina Savari. Dead. [01:13:53] Speaker B: Yes. No, she's still around. [01:13:55] Speaker A: Who am I thinking of then? [01:13:57] Speaker B: I don't know. [01:13:59] Speaker A: Eight miles. [01:13:59] Speaker B: I have no idea. Oh, Brittany Murphy. [01:14:02] Speaker A: Not Brittany Murphy. No, Mina Savari. Not dead. [01:14:06] Speaker B: Not dead. She's fine. [01:14:08] Speaker A: And yes, absolutely fucking annihilates this vagrant, leaves him attached to her car through the fucking windscreen in a way that I think it's either. Is it Creepshow or Tales from the Crypt? There's a segment called the Hitcher. It's a tale. It's one of the creep shows. And this woman runs over a fucking hitchhiker and he keeps coming back in repeat, you know, ever more fucked up messaging. [01:14:39] Speaker B: Thanks for the ride, lady. [01:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah, you know that guy? It reminded me of that segment. It's that and it's almost, you know, pathos, as this guy tries to fucking, over the course of the last third of the movie, tries to detach himself from a fucking, you know, the fucking radiator grill in a car and get himself help, get himself to freedom while she's trying to cover the fucking crime up and decide she's gonna kill him. Really tense. Super tight for a student. For a Stuart Gordon film. For the first two thirds you're like, but where's the gore, Stuart? [01:15:17] Speaker B: Right? Oh, it gets there. Yeah, it definitely gets there. [01:15:21] Speaker A: So, like, one of your cold opens, Corrie. We get there. [01:15:24] Speaker B: Exactly. And the last thing that we watched together was the rule of Jenny Penn or. [01:15:36] Speaker A: Man, I. I'm. I'm lacking with my letterbox admin of late. I didn't put Opus on there. I didn't put Ginny pin on there. [01:15:46] Speaker B: Crazy if you can't tell. It's a Kiwi movie, but starring John Lithgow as an unhinged geriatric nursing home patient and Jeffrey Rush and Geoffrey Rush as the tormented roommate who is being, yeah, harassed by John Lithgow and his weird little baby doll puppet or baby, just baby doll named Jenny Penn. [01:16:17] Speaker A: Listen, unimpeachable credentials on this film, right? What I will say about the Ruler, Jenny Penn, is it is an earnest and fucking heartfelt attempt at making a real fucking movie that says real things and by and large succeeds. Tell you what. Fuck getting old. Fuck. [01:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Frick. You know what? I think I'm not gonna do it, but I think I'm just gonna not. [01:16:47] Speaker A: Well, I'm fond of saying, up to now I'm quite enjoying growing into my bones. I quite like being, you know, a whole ass adult. But after watching the Rule of Jenny Penn. Fuck me. No, I don't want it. I don't want somebody to have to wash me. I have to question the evidence of my fucking eyes and ears. [01:17:04] Speaker B: It'd be a good double feature with the amusement park. The. Have you seen that one? Is it Romero, I think, that made that one. Oh, yeah, and it's the most depressing film. It's only like 40 minutes, I think, but it's like a commentary on the way that we treat aging people. [01:17:24] Speaker A: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. In which case you're quite right, because that's exactly what Jenny Penn is. Yeah. Geoffrey Rush, is he, He's a judge, isn't he? Is that right? [01:17:33] Speaker B: His character is a judge who has like a stroke. [01:17:36] Speaker A: A stroke in the middle of court. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And has to go into a convalescent home. And gradually we notice kind of acts of bullying and privacy violation and abuse all by this guy played by John Lithgow and this creepy ass little hand puppet that he's got. And it starts off almost as juvenile kind of stealing of underwear and rifling through personal belongings. And it gets more and more intense, more and more sinister. And you know, you mentioned the unreliable narrator piece earlier on. We know that Jeffrey Rush's condition has left him, you know, frail mentally. So, you know, is this actually happening? Is, is, you know, is the show on the other foot here? Is John Lithgow is, is Jeffrey Rush actually the perpetrator? Very twisty, very cerebral and utterly, utterly unpleasant. The, the, the suggestion that I guess the reality. Fucking hell, man. That's what this film is confronting you with is. [01:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:39] Speaker A: The reality that at some point you have to abdicate responsibility for your own upkeep. You have to run your own truths by somebody else almost to validate what you're seeing and experiencing in life. You know, at some point you will no longer be responsible for yourself. That's what this film was telling me, and it was horrible. [01:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a rough watch, but it's very good. And you know, entirely off the strength of two just powerhouse actors taking on these roles as well. [01:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know, the fact that he's old John Lithgow and the fact that he's been in such a lot of stuff and now he's Dumbledore, isn't he? I'd like to hear more from him about that. I'd like to hear. [01:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah, let's just hear what he has to say about, you know, just things. [01:19:29] Speaker A: A lot of people. You know, a lot of people re. Repost Anthony Hopkins or Morgan Freeman. They. They've had a lot to say. They've had a lot of wisdom. [01:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:37] Speaker A: According to Facebook. Let's hear what John Lethko has to say about it. [01:19:41] Speaker B: I think it's time. Yeah, for sure. [01:19:43] Speaker A: So do I. [01:19:44] Speaker B: What pearls has he got for us? [01:19:46] Speaker A: So do I. We can also disregard Drop. For some reason. I went along to the movies to see that. [01:19:53] Speaker B: I'm not willing to say we can disregard this because you're the only person on all of my letterboxd who has not liked it. So silly. You can disregard Drop, but I'm not gonna say outright we're gonna not recommend it to our. [01:20:07] Speaker A: Silly. Silly, silly. [01:20:09] Speaker B: And I haven't seen it yet. [01:20:10] Speaker A: You are right in the middle of Blumhouse country here. [01:20:15] Speaker B: Sure. [01:20:16] Speaker A: Where there is nothing to challenge and nothing to, you know, nothing. Nothing really to engage. It's slick and it looks expensive and everyone's very pretty. And it is of. I found it of no value. I found it worthless. I found it. [01:20:34] Speaker B: I think it's. I mean, that's kind of what's on the box, though. And I. I think I have a higher tolerance for that than you do. I don't think that it promises anything that is going to challenge you or anything like that. I think it says you want to look at pretty people in peril for 90 minutes. [01:20:49] Speaker A: Nice. Nice. [01:20:50] Speaker B: Rated triple P. Hey, there we go. I love a P alliteration. That's a great letter for alliteration. [01:20:57] Speaker A: It is. It's really good. [01:20:59] Speaker B: But. Yeah. So other people on my letterbox have really liked it so far, so I do want to see it. And then maybe we can, you know, compare. [01:21:08] Speaker A: Maybe we can. [01:21:08] Speaker B: Because I think I like a broad. Yeah. Like a broad dumb horror, like, made for, like. It's the stuff that's made for people who don't watch horror movies. Right. Like, that's kind of what this is in. [01:21:24] Speaker A: And, well, I. [01:21:25] Speaker B: So I think I tend to like that. [01:21:26] Speaker A: I do watch. And maybe it's. Maybe it's a reflection of where my head was at in April that I gave four stars to a movie about a woman who rots from the inside. [01:21:35] Speaker B: Right. [01:21:36] Speaker A: Maybe it's just. [01:21:36] Speaker B: Maybe it's a me could not abide the pretty people. Movie. [01:21:40] Speaker A: Maybe it's a meeting. Maybe it's where my head was at this month. [01:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Mark. [01:21:48] Speaker A: Anything, anyone, anywhere. But it's not over. The new Ghost album. Right. Hell, Alan and I have had this conversation plenty of times about Ghost and how they do what they do. The trajectory of pretty much everything they release is always the same for me. And I know I speak for my brother here as well. Right. First listen. The first time you listen, you're like, ah, it feels a bit stuck. It doesn't really feel. It doesn't really feel like. Like it's really what I want from Ghost. [01:22:22] Speaker B: Yep. [01:22:23] Speaker A: And then literally the second time you're like, this is everything. Like a whole new album world now all of a sudden, right? [01:22:29] Speaker B: This is 100. Like, I texted that to you earlier too. I mean, not in those words, but it was like, I think this, this. This happened with the last one too. It's like the first time through. And I loved the singles. So that three. [01:22:42] Speaker A: That. That run of three singles at the start of that album is. God, like, it is unimpeachable. [01:22:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:48] Speaker A: Godlike. [01:22:49] Speaker B: And it was like, then I. I listened through it for the first time and I was like, yeah, I don't know. [01:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, I know, I know. [01:22:57] Speaker B: And then today walking the dog and then all of a sudden do it again. And I was like, what the was I thinking? Did I. Was this the same album? Has it changed since yesterday? I feel like I'm listening to a different thing. I absolutely love It's a new Ghost. [01:23:14] Speaker A: If you didn't know, not let you go. [01:23:17] Speaker B: Yes. Although you sending me like a thing about Mark is he likes to send lyrics sometimes completely out of the blue. And if you haven't memorized the same things yet that he has, it can be very confusing. So earlier today, I received a. A text. What did this say? Oh, it's not showing up on. On here. Oh, here it is. Yes, in capital letters. The marks are spreading everywhere. [01:23:48] Speaker A: Everywhere. [01:23:49] Speaker B: I completely misunderstood what Marx meant in this. And I thought somehow there was like a plague of marks. [01:23:58] Speaker A: Yep. [01:23:58] Speaker B: Happening. Or I was like, what. What's going on? And then that's. That's just a quote from a ghost song. [01:24:05] Speaker A: But wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful having them in the world. And I. I think I might have probably said this on Blue sky after I left the show last week, but I don't. I didn't care. This sounds. I'll say it out loud sometimes. Sometimes the right band can just make the. Make life easy to deal with and go do that for Me. They really do make the world easier to fucking bear. [01:24:34] Speaker B: Agreed. Yeah, absolutely. I think that makes perfect sense. [01:24:37] Speaker A: Good, good. [01:24:39] Speaker B: So, Mark, y'all, to close this out, I wanted to revisit something from my cold open a couple weeks ago before. [01:24:47] Speaker A: It's a week of sequels, isn't it? [01:24:48] Speaker B: It is a week of sequels, which I absolutely love. Continuity. Love it. Good job. Us, we had talked about, like, I gave you, like, a big overview of the Falun Gong cult, which, by pure happenstance, you had encountered for the first time. [01:25:06] Speaker A: Me? Yes. [01:25:07] Speaker B: That very week. Yeah. But what was sort of a footnote in my story was the thing that actually, you were most hung up on because it'd been your introduction to the group. You had met a practitioner on the street who wanted you to sign a petition about stopping the practice of forced organ harvesting on Falun Gong prisoners in China. And when you went home and looked into it, you were like, from everything I can tell, this is a legit thing that is happening. And that is so bad. [01:25:36] Speaker A: Credible. [01:25:37] Speaker B: Right, Right. [01:25:38] Speaker A: And I don't have my tabs open here, but articles from Reuters. Yes. Resolutions from the fucking UN World Health, you know, inquiry boards, academics, investigative journalists, law enforcement. There seemed to be a very credible consensus that this was happening. [01:26:01] Speaker B: Yes. And then I get in here, and I'm like, that's not real. It is highly unlikely that this is actually a real thing. And I. You know, because this was, like, a sort of a footnote in my story. I hadn't, like, prepared a whole bunch of, like, research and evidence, you know, to explain this. So it was like you had questions about it. I'm like. I can point to kind of, like, the vague, you know, why we know this isn't true. But, like, also, I was like, I feel like there should be. Because you're curious about it and because I don't want to just be, like, dismissing something, you know, that. You made the good point. It looks legit. I was like, I'm gonna look a little bit more into what was going on here and why. Why people think this is a thing and why I don't. [01:26:48] Speaker A: And on a personal note, I think it speaks to a very admirable quality in you that you won't just leave doubt hanging in the air like a miasma, you know, I will do that. [01:27:05] Speaker B: You. You love to do that to me. Yeah. Actually, that's one of your favorite things. [01:27:10] Speaker A: I leave doubt everywhere. I love it. But, yeah, you knew that. I was unsatisfied by that. You knew that. You know, Corey, you can't just say something didn't happen when the fucking UN says it does. [01:27:22] Speaker B: Who the fuck exactly am I, like, trying to explain why it wasn't to me, I understood why that wasn't satisfying to you because it wasn't coming from a place of like, oh, here, let me lay this out for you. It was like, I read a bunch of articles and, you know, this is what kind of the vagueness of it. So why don't we look at the supposed evidence that this is a thing that is happening. So while you will pretty much never hear me quoting Wikipedia, there is a sentence in the introduction of the wiki on this that I think is actually quite telling. So I am going to quote Wikipedia here. It says, quote, these conclusions are based on a combination of statistical analysis, interviews with former prisoners, medical authorities, and public security agents, and circumstantial evidence, such as the large number of Falun Gong practitioners detained. Extrajudice. Extrajudicious. Extra. Judicially. [01:28:23] Speaker A: I bet you'll cut that out, won't you? [01:28:25] Speaker B: I won't. We're just rolling with it. And the profits to be made from selling organs. So the thing that out the gate I want you to take from that little thing is that none of that said, this is based on observation of the practice. [01:28:44] Speaker A: Give me that quote just one more time, if you don't mind. [01:28:46] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, boy. All right. These conclusions are based on a combination of statistical analysis, interviews with former president, prisoners, medical authorities and public service agents, and circumstantial evidence, such as the large number of Falun Gong practitioners detained extrajudicially in China and the profits to be made from selling organs. [01:29:10] Speaker A: Okay, a word that does leap out. That is circumstantial. [01:29:15] Speaker B: Circumstantial. You will see just how circumstantial this is. Okay, but like I said, nothing in that paragraph said and observation of this practice occurring. Right. No mention of anyone having seen it. Just keep that in mind. Okay, so central piece of evidence is this. China has too many available organs for transplants with too short of a wait time for them to be getting those organs ethically, especially because voluntary organ donation is not popular in China. Because of this, in 1984, the government passed a regulation allowing for removing of organs from executed prisoners, either with their consent or in the case that no one claims their body. The result of this was that China would absolutely pay people, including prisoners, for their organs because people weren't volunteering to give them. And as such, there was a huge trade in organs. And by definitions used by government and humanitarian Bodies paying for organs is not considered consent, which is fair and valid. There are several levels of coercion there. Obviously it's taking advantage of desperate people. I can also imagine prisoners feeling like it's not really a choice and worrying something terrible might happen to them if they don't agree. Agree. So I'm not really arguing with the definition of consent here, but let's just think about this in the context of what that means. That means that the idea of forced organ harvesting, right, includes in its definition people who do give consent by under duress for their organs. Not even under duress necessarily under the. [01:31:03] Speaker A: Implication, but they not even going to have them anyway. Is that what you're saying? [01:31:09] Speaker B: No, I'm saying that could be potentially a thing. People think, okay, I never read anywhere that that is a thing. But this is the kind of thing that these organizations are working with, right? Like if you're paying for someone for their organs, especially a prisoner, of course there's a possibility that they don't really feel like they have a choice, so they do it anyway. I didn't read any cases of anyone saying I didn't have a choice here or anything like that. But that's like the thinking of a body like that, which absolutely makes sense. What I am saying is they are including in their definition of forced organ harvesting people who are not forced but are paid for their organs. So being coerced into selling your organs, as terrible as it might be, is obviously a considerably different animal than being stolen from your cell, pinned down and having your organs torn from your body, which is what Falun Gong is saying is happening to them. Right. So at the gate, this is one of the things that we're talking about here. In 2005, China's deputy health minister acknowledged that 95% of transplants from deceased donors, which made up 65% of all transplants, came from executed prisoners. So 65, 95% of 65% is from executed prisoners. And the World Medical association, like I said, condemned this practice and said that prisoners could not properly consent. So again, the definition here of forced organ harvesting is including people who did technically consent to having their organs harvested. But it doesn't count under the like, humanitarian definitions of what consent is. [01:32:45] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep. [01:32:47] Speaker B: And again, Falun Gong's assertion is that they are being targeted en masse for live organ harvesting without consent, which is very different than saying we are being coerced into donating our organs after death. Right. China has also said that they've since stopped this practice and a database has been created to track organ transplant donors and recipients. And while, of course, we can't fully verify that they're accounting for every single one, from what records seem to show, they've stopped the prisoner organ harvesting practice pretty much altogether. And we'll come back to that data. Now, you mentioned the image of that one guy with the scar who survived the organ harvesting, Right. [01:33:28] Speaker A: And very powerful visual, very powerful test. He described the prison that he was in. He described the regime there. He described the kind of the power structure within his prison. He described there were pictures of X rays from him showing fucking, you know, spaces where there should be organs. [01:33:48] Speaker B: Right, well, let me tell you about that, please, because this guy is the only alleged survivor of this practice known, and the story is dubious. According to Changpei Ming, he had been detained for practicing Falun Gong and tortured in prison. And I'm not necessarily disputing that because I don't know enough about Chinese prison practices. We torture people in our prisons, so I have no reason to think they wouldn't do it in China. Fuck prisons. Bad news bears. I believe him. In 2002, he says that he was suddenly transferred to two different prisons where he was tortured even more severely than he'd been at the one he'd been held at for the past several years. He said that they started giving him blood tests, which can be an indicator that they are planning to harvest organs. According to the articles about this, after all of this torture, he swallowed a, quote, rusty nail and a blunt blade he had found in the torture room. And here's where I start to call bullshit. He says that he didn't show any signs of ill health after doing this, but was forcibly taken to the hospital on November 16, 2004. They told him he had to undergo a risky operation to remove the objects, and he refused. They sedated him, and when he woke up, he had pain in his side and a bloody tube connected to him. He was shackled to the bed and had a 35 centimeter incision to the left side of his chest. In March 2006, he went on a hunger strike and then was hospitalized again. His family was told that he had ingested a knife, and once again he would need surgery. He says that this surgery was actually a ruse and they were planning to kill him. But he asked to be unshackled to go to the bathroom, and when he went, he found an escape and fled, eventually becoming a refugee in Thailand. [01:35:42] Speaker A: So his ingesting of these implements was an escape ruse, an escape plan. [01:35:48] Speaker B: Maybe he does not explain why he did this. It could have also been like suicide, like an attempt. [01:35:57] Speaker A: Sure, sure, sure. [01:35:58] Speaker B: Especially since he refused to be treated for it. So we'll kind of come back around to that. But years later, he came to the US and tests revealed that parts of his liver and his left lung had been surgically removed. And this has been used as evidence that they are for sure carrying out this organ harvesting practice. But, Marco, the red flags are pretty clear here. The man was admittedly engaging in self harming behaviors like swallowing sharp objects. And while he didn't consent to surgeries for it, that they didn't listen to him and opened him up anyway is not a wild concept. Prisons usually don't just let prisoners kill themselves. You know, if they find someone in the midst of hanging themselves or cutting their wrists or things like that, they will intervene. So that they performed a surgery on a guy that had swallowed razors and nails isn't crazy. And then, I mean, like he says, they did this, like, out of nowhere, Even though he showed no sign of illness. But what are the odds that, like, he swallowed a rusty nail and a razor and there was no physical sign of illness? That doesn't really. Doesn't really add up. So out the gate, like, he's lying about what happened to him here, or even he's just traumatized. Right? Like that's a valid point of this. I can absolutely buy that. You know, he was traumatized from the torture that he experienced in prison and he was freaking out and, you know, interpreting the things that were happening to him in really scary ways. His family was warned that these surgeries had a high probability of being fatal. And if he swallowed a nail or a razor and aspirated it into his lung, that's got a real high chance of killing him. Similarly, swallowed foreign bodies can also end up penetrating the liver. One medical study I found talked about this. It said, while more common in children, adults may also swallow foreign bodies that can reach the liver by penetrating the stomach, duodenum, or colon. We describe the case here of a young lady who accidentally swallowed a needle, which was later found in the liver by abdominal x ray. [01:38:00] Speaker A: Well, who was the fucking girl from the church who kept eating the needles, sticking the needles in? [01:38:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, right. And they start, like, coming out her skin. Exactly. Yeah, right, precisely. It's obviously a rare occurrence. As the study points out, most foreign bodies aren't sharp enough to penetrate the wall of the gut and end up in the liver. Nails, razors, and knives are absolutely among the things that could choppity chop right on through your tum tum and get lodged elsewhere, leading to the need for surgery and potentially removal of part of your liver. So you can aspirate these things when you swallow them and they end up in the lung. You can end up swallowing these things and they perforate your stomach and end up in your liver. These things easily could lead to you needing surgery that would remove parts of these. These organs. So the one person we have evidence this has actually happened to admits that they swallowed several sharp objects before the alleged procedure. And the parts of that person that removed concern that are removed are consistent with areas that can be affected by the ingestion of sharp objects. Their families were also informed of the procedures before they occur. Which feels like a thing they wouldn't bother doing if they plan to illegally harvest organs from someone and then disappear them. [01:39:17] Speaker A: Agreed. [01:39:18] Speaker B: Like tell the family. Agreed. [01:39:19] Speaker A: Agreed. Agreed. [01:39:22] Speaker B: It's also worth noting that he had no suspicions that he'd had his organs harvested until the US doctors told him so. He was quoted as saying, quote, at the time, I didn't realize that it was organ harvesting. After undergoing medical tests, I found out my organs had been harvested. Part of my liver and lungs had been removed. I didn't even know about it until I was examined in the US So this wasn't a guy who like came to the US as a refugee, like, they took my organs. He came here and they were like, they took your organs? And he was like, oh, okay. And he clearly had traumatic experiences in prison and probably attempted to take his own life on multiple occasions, both through swallowing objects and hunger striking and then attempting to refuse surgery afterwards. It wasn't until U.S. doctors told him of the damage that it gave him a new narrative and he could sort of retain retconned that story into something that was far more meaningful. And let's just go back to the claims that Falun Gong practitioners are being systematically targeted. The bodies of prisoners are returned to families that claim them. So why aren't these families reporting a whole bunch of scarred up bodies and showing them off to the media? That seems weird. [01:40:31] Speaker A: It does. [01:40:33] Speaker B: And what was it that that lady said to you about why they were taking Falun Gong organs in particular? [01:40:38] Speaker A: I remember it vividly. It was in the little leaflet. [01:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:42] Speaker A: Falun Gong practitioners, Corrigan, are being singled out for organ harvesting because Falun Gong is known to give its practitioners better health, better bodily, physical health. Because of the energies, you know? [01:41:01] Speaker B: Right. Yes. [01:41:02] Speaker A: Because of the longevity, because of the benefit to respiration and cardiac Health marks them out as being excellent targets for excellent candidates for transplant because of the vitality. The vitality of this practice. [01:41:18] Speaker B: Yes. Well, in another fantastic coincidence. What was that? [01:41:23] Speaker A: Oh, just. I will, you know, I will call out that. I also had marked that out as bullshit, obviously. [01:41:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that was. The thing is, like, the whole reason this thing started, that you came and looked it up was because your bullshit meters went off kind of immediately and you were surprised to find when you came home. [01:41:40] Speaker A: That's exactly. Wait a minute. [01:41:42] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. So you. You initially, like, saw red flags right away. So. Yeah. And another coincidence, I was doing my morning coffee reading of Carl Sagan's the Demon Haunted World, which was written in 1996, and it contained this passage talking about Falun Gong and qigong. Some patients died under the ministration of one of these masters of qigong, who was arrested and convicted in 1993, Wang Hongcheng, an amateur chemist, claimed to have synthesized a liquid, small amount of which, when added to water, would convert it to gasoline or the equivalent. For a time, he was funded by the army and the secret police. But when his invention was found to be a scam, he was arrested and imprisoned. Naturally, the story spread that his misfortune resulted not from fraud, but from his unwillingness to reveal his secret formula to the government. So here we see an early form of exactly what this lady was saying to you about China harvesting the organs because they're especially desirable and people being arrested just because they are practicing a harmless religion. Here we had a qigong practitioner whose scam actively killed people. But the narrative that was spread was that he was imprisoned because he had a special secret formula and the government wanted it. This is the playbook for Falun Gong. Everything that, you know, the government is doing to them is because, like, oh, we have. We have the secrets, right? We're healthier. We know how to do magic. [01:43:11] Speaker A: You know, this is coming into focus. Yes. [01:43:14] Speaker B: Right. Now let's look at the evidence against, you know, recognizing that it is very difficult to prove something is not happening. Right. Like, oh, how do you prove something like it does not exist? That's pretty hard. But there's facts that kind of can lead us in this direction. For example, US State Department officials paid two visits, one unannounced, to Sujetun Hospital, where Falun Gong practitioners claimed that these organ harvesting events were occurring. And they found no evidence in either case. Naturally, they still came back and said they were concerned that this practices practice was happening. But they came into that prison by surprise, went around the whole thing and saw no evidence that this was actually happening. They then came back by invitation and toured it. No evidence that this was happening. They still perpetuated that it was happening, but they did not see any evidence of this. On another occasion, Canadians David Kilgore and David Matas investigated and determined that because China makes it difficult to talk to eyewitnesses or go investigate in person, the only explanation for the organ transplant statistics must be harvesting. And when the report was released, it was criticized for the fact that that was just an inference. There was no evidence of the practice found, just assumptions based on what they already thought. There's too many organs there. [01:44:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:47] Speaker B: We can't explain it. They must be being harvested. [01:44:50] Speaker A: So how. How do you account for that then? [01:44:53] Speaker B: We'll get there. Further investigations are super circular, with the people providing evidence largely being the same researchers, including Modus and Kilgore, who are all over pretty much every single thing that you will read that claims that this is happening. They are at the center of it, with their central thing being there's too many organs. How do we account for the organs as well as, you know, a handful of Falun Gong practitioners who claim to have witnessed this, even the chair of the World Health Organization's Task Force on Donation and Transplantation of Human Organs and Tissues said that none of the investigations provided any direct evidence that this harvesting was occurring. So someone, again, whose entire job is monitoring harvesting of human organs and tissues could not find a single piece of evidence that this was occurring. The witnesses that they do have were not subject to organ harvesting, but to things like blood tests, urine tests, EKGs, and chest X rays that they found suspicious. These prisoners asserted that the doctors did no other tests besides tests on their organs and blood, which they concluded meant they were being screened for fitness for transplants. They never actually had any of their organs harvested. They just assumed that was the next step. Because why would you take my blood? [01:46:18] Speaker A: Yep. [01:46:19] Speaker B: If you weren't screening me to find out if I was a match for an organ transplant? As I mentioned in my cold open on this, publications like the Washington Post talked to experts on the ground who would have absolutely witnessed this or engaged with people who had. And they had seen no evidence of this practice occurring. Like Lang Xiaojun, the lawyer who had defended hundreds of Falun Gong practitioners and said he had only ever even heard of three or four Falun Gong deaths in prison total, as opposed to the hundreds of thousands that are claimed by Falun Gong. Further, there are real good reasons why it makes no sense for example, WaPo points out, Transplant patients must take immunosuppressant drugs for life to prevent their bodies from rejecting their transplanted organs. Data compiled by QuintilesIMS, an American healthcare information company, and supplied to the Post shows China's share of global demand for immunosuppressants is roughly in line with the proportion of the world's transplant China says it carries out. In other words, the database that China now keeps of where its organ transplants come from matches up with the number of people receiving organ transplants and then taking the requisite immunosuppressant drugs. [01:47:30] Speaker A: Okay. [01:47:32] Speaker B: That means there are not a large number of untraceable or black market transplants happening, which would be the case if tens of thousands of Falun Gong members were being secretly murdered each year for their organs. You would have a complete discrepancy between the numbers that are on that register and the people who are taking the drugs as a result of that. There is no discrepancy between that. They keep a list of who those organs come from, who's getting them, and it matches up with the amount of immunosuppressant drugs that are being given to people. [01:48:07] Speaker A: You know, again, just in the interest of asking questions, is it completely infeasible to think that those records aren't accurate? [01:48:18] Speaker B: So these are American records of the drugs? Yeah. So there's international. Yeah, like this comes from so many places. [01:48:29] Speaker A: Non China nationals who have received donations from China and are taking immunosuppressants. [01:48:36] Speaker B: And Chinese people. Yeah, everybody who is. Who has received and. Yeah, so all the people who are getting these things, they get their immunosuppressant drugs from, like, a certain group of pharmaceutical companies, and those are matching their registers. The paper also pointed out that if thousands of practitioners are being executed or disappeared each year, their families would certainly speak out despite state representation repression. While we have this idea of China being a place with exceptional censorship, people actually quite often speak out against the government, especially people who have fled. We have a ton of Falun Gong followers here in the US I saw tons of them in Japan and Korea these past couple of weeks. Why don't any of them have personal stories of family members and friends who have died? Why aren't they searching for these people who this happened to? They're not real. Those people don't exist. And when it comes down to it, there has never been one single witness to the practice of harvesting organs from Falun Gong practitioners or anyone else. The only evidence we have is assumption. They seem to have too many organs, therefore they must be stealing them. A guy who swallowed a bunch of sharp objects, had surgeries, and therefore he must have had his organs stolen. Some prisoners had various medical tests run on them that could have possibly been the kind of tests you get if you were being screened for organ compatibility. So they must have been about to get their shit harvested. Meanwhile, everyone who has been in the prisons and worked with the prisoners is like, I've never seen that. Even people from foreign governments hostile to China, who went over there specifically with the goal of surprising the Chinese and catching them in the act were like, oh, well, there's nothing going on that we can see, but we should still keep an eye out just in case. I read dozens of articles claiming that the practice exists, and not a single one provided anything other than the same innuendo and circumstantial evidence. Not one was like, someone went to the prisons and saw this occur, or bodies were found with transplant scars, or thousands of Falun Gong families report their relatives executed in prison. Nothing. There's just no reason to believe that there is mass harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners organs. No matter how super spiritually tasty those. [01:51:01] Speaker A: Organs might be full of that Qi Gong energy. [01:51:11] Speaker B: I really tried, I really tried to find like something other than like these fucking Canadian researchers who were like, they just have too many organs. But there's just. There's just nothing there. [01:51:26] Speaker A: Look, to back this up, what we have here is an object lesson in information literacy, isn't it? What we have here is an absolute. Just a demonstration of the fact that you don't need to. You don't need to make up horrors. There are plenty, right. Fucking space jizz, for fuck's sake. You know, just a couple of nerds like us over a couple of weeks. All you have to do is just ask questions and just interrogate a little bit what you're being told. [01:52:07] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Especially when it's like, you know, like we've said, it got your hackles up immediately. You know, you could tell the story, didn't add up, you know, and while the sort of surface level sources on this seem to validate it, it's if you start looking at their sources that the things again, don't add up. You know, it's like I can't remember what it was, but I was talking a couple. Oh, in our group chat when this is so dumb, but we were talking about converse, right, Chucks? [01:52:42] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. [01:52:44] Speaker B: And that Richard had made some comment about like Chucks being slippers. So that they can be like sold with different tariffs or something like that. And I was like, I wear a lot of Chucks. I've never noticed like this soft fuzz that apparently is supposed to be on the bottom of them. And so I clicked like, you know, he like LinkedIn to the source of this, which is from NPR. That should be like a valid source. And then I clicked the npr, like where they linked their source to. And it was a tweet. And then where was the tweet leading? It was leading to a podcast. It was like, there is often even the sources that seem like they should, they should be trusted and can be trusted are getting their shit from nonsense. [01:53:34] Speaker A: Yep. [01:53:35] Speaker B: I just got a new pair of chucks. I'm wearing them right now. And they have no fluff on the bottom of them. They are not slippers. [01:53:44] Speaker A: This particular case, the Falun Gong organ harvesting case, that was what was giving me such a problem. [01:53:51] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [01:53:52] Speaker A: A story which didn't fucking ring true. Seemingly being lent, you know, credulity and credibility by some pretty heavyweight sounding organizations and names. Yeah, it's incredible to me that, that all circles back to this very, very, very flimsy core of non evidence. [01:54:15] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, it's. I think one of the things that is so interesting about this story is that it does, you know, it, it makes us have to question the things that. Like the propaganda that we're subject to. [01:54:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:54:32] Speaker B: As well. Right. Like the fact that, you know, one of the reasons that seeing these, these reports and stuff like why they believe the evidence here and stuff like that is based on what we think about China, that is largely, you know, complete seems, seems plausible, you know, and I have a good amount of friends who are either from China or live in China now, and none of the stuff that like we think about China is true to their experiences. But we have, you know, this idea of like what kind of place that is, that is like uniquely horrific and is committing these incredible atrocities that are unheard of by other countries. And like I said, you know, when I talked about this a couple weeks ago, like, I'm not caping for any government. Like, I don't think there are, if any, there aren't many governments that aren't horrible and repressive and, you know, do terrible things to their citizens and whoever else. That's not my point. My point is that there is a line between what kinds of government repression and things like that that are occurring and what is propaganda that we've accepted uncritically that makes us go, yeah, it sounds right. [01:55:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:55:50] Speaker B: That's essentially what has happened here. [01:55:52] Speaker A: And, you know, not to want to be facetious about, you know, space jizz or whatever, but even. Even at a global level and at a, you know, at a government level, there is so much actual human rights atrocity taking place that, you know, does it detract focus? You know, is it like a fucking radio clang? [01:56:13] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. There are these, like, all these people from Falun Gong going out into the streets and like, getting people riled up about this shit when, like, imagine if that were, like, focused on something that actually is occurring, you know, that there are so many human rights violations happening every day, including by our own governments, that we should be paying attention to, and instead we're trying to get justice for imaginary people. [01:56:43] Speaker A: And without knowing, because, as you'll recall, she couldn't tell me without knowing what organization this woman was canvassing on behalf of. [01:56:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Who are these signatures for? What's the point of this? [01:56:55] Speaker A: But every individual she spoke to, you know, or the ones that didn't flat out just walk away from her. Right. [01:57:02] Speaker B: Just leave. [01:57:04] Speaker A: Is leaving that conversation with a. An even an idea of China. That is. What's the word I'm looking for? A. A phantom view of China. A spooky kind of spectra spectre kind of view of China. [01:57:21] Speaker B: That's what. Right. We call it the specter of communism. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:57:25] Speaker A: Well put. [01:57:26] Speaker B: Thing over us. It's. It's the name of one of the books that. That Falun Gong has put out about China. I mean, that's the idea, right, Is to spook us about China. Because Falun Gong is deeply anti China and disinformation buy into it. It's disinformation. That's exactly what it is. It's disinformation that we are prone to accept because of our, you know, the confirmation bias. [01:57:54] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [01:57:55] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I think that's an interesting scotched. [01:57:58] Speaker A: Of this whole thing. Scotch that one. Cross it off the list, mate. Jack of all graves just scotched. Yeah. [01:58:08] Speaker B: Next time you run into a Falun Gong practitioner in public, which, listen, will probably happen because they're everywhere, you know, you have the. You have the facts. Maybe if we could get back to them, the. [01:58:20] Speaker A: The two episodes here, if we could get those in like a QR code. [01:58:23] Speaker B: Right, Yeah. I think I would be curious as to, like, how they would respond to that, though, because, like, famously, like, say, like Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, if you, like, kind of push them on their views. They often just, like, leave because they've done their job. Like, you know, they have witnessed their whatever, and they are not there to answer your questions and, like, you know, defend this. Whereas, like, Mormons will. Mormons will, like, actively try to push back on you with that. And I'm curious, like, I am sure that these Falun Gong practitioners have never heard the other side of this, you know? [01:59:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't for a second believe that that lady was acting in anything other than good faith. [01:59:11] Speaker B: Right, exactly. And I'd be curious as to, like, say, like, Mormons are prepped with, like, if someone says this, then say this. You see this in heretic. Right? Like, they have kind of an answer for everything that, you know, Hugh Grant's character says to them, because they are prepped with, like, these are the things that you're gonna hear from people who don't want to believe it. Here are the answers to those things. And with Falun Gong, because the information is so controlled, I wonder if they would be allowed to know what those other arguments are. Yeah. Because again, to go back to Jehovah's Witnesses, one of the things with JWs is that they're, like, deeply discouraged from, like, getting an education and things like that, because the body of Jehovah's Witnesses knows that if you're exposed to other ideas, you might go, hey, is this. [02:00:06] Speaker A: This is nonsense. Yeah. [02:00:07] Speaker B: Right. So I am curious if. If a Falun Gong practitioner would have answers prepared or if they'd be like, I've never heard any of this, but I know you're like a Chinese agent, so if anyone runs into one and kind of brings these things up, I would be very interested to see how they respond to being challenged on. On this. [02:00:31] Speaker A: I. It feels to me as though we're building up to our first ever live scotching. Like, had I. Had I known, had our fucking podcast, had our episode worked when I was in Newcastle a couple, I would have chased that woman down the street and asked her if she wanted to come back to my hotel and beyond and talk. [02:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah, can we talk about this? [02:00:54] Speaker A: She probably would have thought I was trying to fucking nick her pancreas or something. [02:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's, you know, clearly a risk. [02:01:02] Speaker A: It's always a risk, isn't it? You never know. [02:01:03] Speaker B: It's always safe. Listen, you're never safe. So someone might nick your. Your pancreas. You know, we can't say with any. [02:01:12] Speaker A: Certainty that they won't, but if they do, at least take a photo and Assemble an. A rigorous account of what happened. [02:01:23] Speaker B: Right. Yes, please. [02:01:24] Speaker A: I would love to know the last thing you. [02:01:26] Speaker B: Bathtub of ice and all that shit. [02:01:28] Speaker A: The last thing you want is Corrigan and Marco scotching you on next week's Jack of All Graves. [02:01:32] Speaker B: It's true. I'm a need hard evidence, all right? I'm a need to feel that scar. Like Thomas. It's a Bible thing. [02:01:42] Speaker A: Oh, definitely. Hanging in the air, waiting for me to go. Like in the Bible. [02:01:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I know you know Thomas. So, friends, listen, if you watch the movies that Mark has recommended, if you meet a Falun Gong practitioner, if someone nicks your liver, we want to hear all about it. [02:02:05] Speaker A: Yes. [02:02:06] Speaker B: If you have suggestions. [02:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:02:08] Speaker B: Yes. [02:02:08] Speaker A: Sci fi. Horror. Space horror. Not Jason X doesn't count. We saw that once. [02:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. We've been. We've done that one already. Great time. [02:02:16] Speaker A: I want low. I want low production value. Value is what I want. I want. You know what I mean? I want. What other kinds of things I want. I want like, not even Critters four. That isn't quite it, but it's. It's in there somewhere. It's. It's. Maybe, yes, like Fortress. It's that kind of vibe, right? [02:02:34] Speaker B: Like maybe a little bit of camp. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. [02:02:38] Speaker A: That's the. That's the place I want us to take us to on the Watch along. [02:02:41] Speaker B: You can put Fortress in the pole for the record. You just can't unilaterally choose it. [02:02:46] Speaker A: It and listen. Hey, we listen to you as much as we love you listening to us. Maybe. Do you want to cut me a break? Maybe those who were on the discord that night. [02:02:57] Speaker B: Oh, end the sentence. [02:02:59] Speaker A: Meet the female. [02:02:59] Speaker B: Maybe. [02:03:00] Speaker A: Maybe it's time to commute my sentence. Maybe I deserve bail. Maybe. Maybe it's time to forgive. [02:03:06] Speaker B: Well, we'll. We'll leave it up to people and see what they're saying. [02:03:09] Speaker A: All right? The kangaroo cord of Joag. [02:03:15] Speaker B: You know it. [02:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:03:16] Speaker B: This ain't no democracy. [02:03:20] Speaker A: Anything else to wrap us up on? I don't think so. That was a lot of fun. This has been a lovely time indeed. [02:03:25] Speaker B: Glad to be back with you all. Glad to be with you, my darling. Marco. Friends, you have one thing that you have to make sure that you do over the course of this week, no matter what else occurs when you step out that fucking door. [02:03:39] Speaker A: And if you forget what it is, you simply get hold of Helicope and read her fucking ankle. [02:03:44] Speaker B: Yes, it'll tell you. Oh, my God. [02:03:48] Speaker A: It'll tell you. I was. Can I just. Just briefly. I can't actually. I can't describe how it felt, seeing that it was. [02:03:58] Speaker B: You gotta give context here. Not everyone will have seen it. [02:04:01] Speaker A: All right, so at Ghost last week, Alan and I met up with. I pro. I want to say our biggest fan. I want to say. [02:04:09] Speaker B: I feel like. I feel like the. Yeah, we've reached that. [02:04:13] Speaker A: Our biggest. Our biggest supporter. She's been. She's listened to the journey end to end now more times than I'd care to mention, and she's done the un. The un. The unpredictable, the unforeseen, the. The unbelievable. And has the joag zombie arm on her one ankle. [02:04:29] Speaker B: Yes. And. [02:04:29] Speaker A: And the legend stay spooky in spooky text. On her other ankle, blown away. [02:04:33] Speaker B: Beautiful. [02:04:34] Speaker A: If I were to offer feedback, maybe tucked away in the ankle. If it had been kind of above the neck, maybe. [02:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I have to, like, really commit. Yeah, definitely under the eyes. [02:04:46] Speaker A: Throwing that out on the island. [02:04:48] Speaker B: I can stay spooky. [02:04:50] Speaker A: Maybe next time. Hannah. I don't know. Don't. Don't do that. That was a joke. [02:04:53] Speaker B: It was a joke. But incredible stuff. And we are, yeah, Deeply honored to have that permanent place. And we hope that we always live up to it. And you never have to get it covered up. [02:05:07] Speaker A: Yes. That means neither of us can now. You know, the skeletons in our closet have to stay there. [02:05:15] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [02:05:16] Speaker A: Otherwise Hannah's paying for lasers. All right, that was it. Stay spooky. Love you. [02:05:23] Speaker B: Bye.