[00:00:04] Speaker A: Today, Ryan, I'm going to tell you about an artist utopia gone awry.
A vibrant but doomed community of bohemians, as they referred to themselves, who made their homes on the cliffs of the Pacific Ocean and attempted to fashion for themselves a Walden like existence, free from the bustle, temptations and chaos of early 20th century San Francisco.
But if you know anything about Walden, you know that Thoreau's hermetic experience, living off the land in perfect isolation with nothing but his thoughts in his pen, was always a lie. Yep. And so it was for the young bohemians who settled in the remote coastal California community of Carmel by the sea.
Does this ring any bells so far.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: No, but I already have a book recommendation after this.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Ah, perfect. Wonderful. Love that. So, Ryan, let's do this.
In the early 1900s, California was still growing into itself.
It had only been half a century since the gold rush had brought masses of white Americans to the new state. And much of it was still little more than a lot of sort of undeveloped nature.
Los Angeles, far from the hub of culture and smog it is now, was basically dusty farmland at that time.
San Francisco, on the other hand, was quickly becoming a big, shiny city full of business, industry, and the arts.
San Francisco was where you went to make your fortune, or at least that was the case until 1906, when a powerful earthquake hit the city that would almost completely reverse its fortunes overnight.
Oh, no.
Are you familiar with the 1906 earthquake, Ryan?
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, no, it's not great. Didn't go great, and I'll explain more about that. But this was one of the things I remember when I was moving to California as a kid, like, my conception of the place was a. That I remembered watching the world series in 1989 and the earthquake being that and it being terrifying and everything being on fire, and it was really scary. And then learning about the 1906 Earth earthquake, which was even more terrifying than that one had been.
So I was very scared when I moved to California of these things. Turns out if you live in California, you just get very used to earthquakes. It's just like a normal thing that happens all the time. They're usually not that big. And I have managed to get out before the big one that we have been awaiting for all this time.
Gotta happen at night. But I think the biggest I ever experienced was maybe like a 6.4 or something like that, which is big, but not like, you know, break the state kind of big.
But back to 1906.
The 7.9 magnitude quake, as you might imagine, caused the collapse of buildings all over the city. Like the Valencia hotel, which killed 50 people when it started, sunk 20ft into the ground and fell.
This is also like a very Bay Area thing because, like, so I went to middle school, Mill Valley Middle School. Right.
And it was built, like, on top of a landfill between a Martian. A sewage plant that smelled terrible all the time.
But also because, like, there's earthquakes and stuff constantly. The school was safe, sinking.
So, like, there were like actively sinkholes in, like, the concrete and stuff around the school that were like, bigger all the time. And like, by the time I left there, or by the time my sister left there, she's three years younger than me. Like, the place where you sat and ate lunch was like a foot lower than it been when I started there.
It's like, absolutely crazy. They're just constantly having to, like, fill in because it's just sinking all the time, which is really smart city planning.
But. Yeah. So this building, this hotel sunk 20ft and then collapsed and killed 50 people.
But what was worse than the collapse of the unstable buildings and the thing that gives me all my nightmares was the fire.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: God, the fire. In fact, usually when you hear about people referring to the 1906 earthquake, they're more likely to refer to it as the. The Great San Francisco Fire.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Because that was the thing that really did the damage. Gas lines ruptured and exploded, igniting the city and spreading out of control, sparing no home, business, or landmark in its path to stop the spread. And this is wild.
Soldiers blew up buildings in the fire lines with dynamite.
Basically. Better to strategically destroy a few edifices if it would keep them from then becoming vectors of the flame.
Huh. Bonkers. I've never heard of that before. Just like, shit, these might catch fire. Blow them up.
Yeah, smart, I guess.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: One witness said, quote, we decided to go home and make sure of our insurance papers and jewelry. Even then, our friends laughed at us. It was a strange obsession. No one seemed to realize that there was no water. And each one believed that the fire could not reach him.
Most people escaped with only the clothes that they wore when the fire was in. Within two squares of us, a woman in our house declared that our house could not burn and she would not pack her clothes.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Oh, my God, people.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Titanic. Shit. Yeah.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: This ship won't sink.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: Like, like, look outside.
What is. What would make you think that can't hit you, you know?
But yeah, people. People thought it was a panic. Don't worry about it.
The fire was an unthinkable disaster for which no one was prepared.
Deaths are estimated only to have been around 3,000, which is still one of the biggest earthquake related death tolls ever.
But over 300,000 people were rendered homeless and 80% of the city was destroyed in one fell swoop.
Yeah, that's a lot.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: The effort to rebuild began immediately and was rapid, shifting the entire culture and landscape of the city.
And while you'd think they would have made sure to enact strict building codes and regulations, speed took precedent. And buildings were constructed as quickly as possible, often of wood.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: The best. The best material to build with, arguably.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. This place caught fire and everything burned down. You know what? We should rebuild it with wood.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Wood.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: They didn't even do that in Chicago. They were like, that's a. We can't do this anymore. We need to not. Never again city out of. Out of wood. San Francisco was like, nah, it's fine. We got to get things up and running because as I said, like, this is like a hub of investment at the time, you know, post gold rush and all that. And, and businesses were coming up and flourishing. So they were like, we don't want investors to lose faith in us and like go to la, for example. So we got to get this stuff back in place as fast as possible.
So while San Francisco was able to restore itself and adopt new technologies like the streetcars and cable cars that made the city famous, life for citizens was chaotic.
The remnants of the gold rush era were gone. It was a new city, vibrant but moving at the speed of light.
And the city's artists found themselves longing for something slower, more conducive to their work.
Lucky for San Francisco's bohemians, poet George sterling had in 1905 moved to a small beachside town called Carmel by the sea. At the time nearly unoccupied, as no one wanted to live in the middle of fucking nowhere at a time when cars were barely a thing.
Imagine is moving there had basically been a promotional stunt. The lack of interest in living in a beautiful but extremely out of the way placement that prices to rent or buy homes were on the flat lore.
According to the poetry foundation, you could buy a $500 cottage with a $10 down payment. And rent in most places was about $6 a month.
And that's not just cheap to us. I checked.
That isn't one of those things. We're like, oh yeah. But that was like, you know, $100,000 back then.
It was $218 in 2025 money.
Gorgeous beach adjacent property for two hundo a month.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: I want it right.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: Sign me up. I'm there.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: Sign me up. I'm there.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: And this made it a perfect hub for artists who weren't going to have to, like, commute to work every day, so they didn't necessarily care that it was out of the way.
But they also weren't necessarily uber wealthy either.
Many of them did come from money, but that didn't mean they were personally rolling in it. They might have a trust fund or an allowance, but they weren't like Rockefellers or hearsts.
Sterling, himself, 36 years old at the time and a native of New York, came from a family that had been in the US Since Puritan times, when there wasn't even a US Yet.
He initially planned to become a priest, but thought the better of it and moved to California to work in real estate with his uncle, who was already making bank out here.
He married his uncle's stenographer, Carrie Rand, and began to focus his attention on. On writing poetry, a thing he had studied and excelled at when he was in seminary.
I may disagree with the excelled part, but we'll get there.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: I was gonna say I.
Yeah, that.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: That. That line.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: I'm like, excelled at poetry.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, sure, sure. One moment. We'll return to it. He soon became a big deal in the Bay Area lit scene, a member of the Bohemian Club, a sort of secret society for the artistic and business elite.
Here he hobnobbed with the big names of the day and soon became besties with Jack London and Ambrose Bierce, the latter becoming something between, like a mentor, an agent and an editor for Sterling, directing him on what kinds of poetry he should write and editing his works heavily to coach him toward becoming the great California poet.
And for what it's worth, like I said, I think the poems he wrote with Beerus's help are absolute shit.
Bierce instructed him to, quote, leave human experience out of his poems in favor of higher pursuits, as the Poetry foundation put it. He told Sterling, quote, you shall be the power of the skies, the prophet of the suns. Don't fiddle. Faddle with such infinitesimal and tiresome trivialities as, for example, the immemorial squabbles of rich and poor.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: How poetic.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: White men. Yeah, how poetic. This led him to writing poems like this one entitled the Testimony of the Sons.
Oh, armies of eternal night how flame your. I don't know what. Guidons. Guidons. How flame your guidons on the dark silently we turn from time to hark what final orders sway your. Might dim veils of fire, O that were the stubborn bastions of thy flame and reaches of abysmal flame, wherein thy spectral oceans stir.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:11:57] Speaker A: Trash.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Oh, buddy.
Fucking hell.
But Beerse declared that if the poem had been quote, written in French and published in Paris, it would have stirred the very stones of the street.
Sure, just pretentious bullshit trying to emulate the art of antiquity.
Not the point, though. The point is, under Bierce's guidance and with that bohemian club on his side, Sterling was heralded as the king of Bohemia.
And when the Carmel Development company hired him on as a land development developer, they suggested he moved to Carmel by the sea and encourage his hom to come with them. It was a perfect match.
Especially because George Sterling, under the sordid influence of the city, was kind of a cad.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: Alongside London, notorious for his perpetual wastedness, Sterling drank way too much and slept with any pretty girl he saw, despite the whole married to his uncle's stenographer thing.
Oops. Oops.
He knew, though, that this was probably not a great or moral way to live. So he was like, hey, I'm a move out to bfe, live off the land and stick with, as he put it, just one girl.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Oh, that's nice of.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Straighten up and fly right. He had a house built there that was designed for huge gatherings with a living room that was 30ft long by 8, 18ft wide.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Okay, Gatsby, Seriously, right?
[00:13:40] Speaker A: It's like. It's like as big as my. The entire first floor of my house.
It had a stone fireplace, a porch that overlooked the ocean, and, of course, a sacred grove with a pagan altar and a bevy of cow skulls tied to trees.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: I mean, who doesn't have that?
[00:13:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I assume that's what's going on back there behind your house.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Basically my backyard.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: In your woods.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: In my cult woods.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Yes, exactly.
He would fit right in in your cult woods, for sure. Totally similar quirkiness followed from other artists who moved to the colony, including Mary Austin, who spent her days writing in a tree house she called the wickiup as a reference to the abodes of the Paiute tribe.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Oh, good.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Okay, Mary, if you say so.
Sure, buddy.
From what it sounds like, it didn't even, like, look like one of these Paiute things. Like, a Paiute's wikiup is like a domed structure on the ground.
So like a yurt. Yeah, like a yurt kind of situation.
But there was a lot of weird indigenous appropriation going on from These folks, which is not unusual in the early 20th century, especially out west, they just loved cosplaying as the folks they eradicated to set up shop.
In the wake of the earthquake, scores of artists fled to carmel. And by 1910, the San Fran. San Francisco. It's not how you say that it is now.
People in the bay get really annoyed when you call it Frisco. I know how to solve the problem San Francisco.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Solved.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: By 1910, the San Francisco Call noted that 60% of Carmel by the Sea residents did, quote, work connected to the aesthetic arts, which is pretty wild. Also sounds very useless.
Do they have a fire department? What's going on up there? 60% are just artists.
It's a nightmare town is what that is.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: I hate that.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: And if we really kind of want to put it into perspective because of the age of the people who were, like, doing this. The artist colony at Carmel by the Sea was basically like one of those YouTuber houses or like, TikTok houses, where all these kids live together and party and make stuff.
But because these folks already basically, like, came for money, it was a little less capitalist in nature than, like, a YouTube house would be, which worked less to its benefit than you would think, because ultimately Those TikTokers and YouTubers are grinding, right? Like, they can only party so hard because they have to be making content like, 24 7. It requires a degree of sobriety and diligence.
That was very much not the case in Carmel. As much as they aimed for that, these folks had, like, a very idealistic idea of what this community would be.
Many of them considering themselves to be socialists, communists and anarchists.
They avoided paving the roads or installing electricity. They rejected outside businesses, allowing only the ones that had been there when they arrived. Their groceries were, quote, left in covered wooden boxes on posts or trees. And the tradesmen's return the next week to pick up the money. The poetry foundation quoted his historian Michael Orth as explaining.
It's like all the kind of stuff that, like, you imagine, you know, like, you're, like, making up a little, like, oh, wouldn't it be nice kind of society.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: This is totally like the society at the beginning of the bigfoot book.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: I was gonna say. Yeah, the. The one by Max Brooks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Devolution. Yeah, that's the one. It's very much like that.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Well, like, drone in your groceries.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
We don't need the world, right? Exactly.
The residents would. At least it was planned work uninterrupted in the mornings, and then by the afternoon, Carmel was abuzz with social activities.
They held parties, picnicked on the beach, and had pagan ceremonies in the aforementioned sacred grove.
Like, honestly, the very dorky stuff that happens when you get theater kids together. It's a colony of theater kids.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%, yeah.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: One of the residents wrote of one evening's shenanigans. Quote, sterling had climbed to the top of the cliff in his bathing trunks.
Somewhere or other, he had procured a trident, and he was standing silhouetted against the sky while Jimmy Hopper was taking his picture.
This was too frivolous for Mary, dressed in a beaded leather costume and long braids of an Indian princess who was gazing at the setting sun.
Standing on the beach with outspread arms, she began something which sounded like an incantation, but which turned out to be a quotation from Browning. Tis a cyclopean blacksmith, chanted Barry, striking frenzied sparks from an anvil of the horizon.
London was standing with a fork in hand, having just disposed of an abalone steak. Taking a look around, which included both Mary and the horizon, he exclaimed, hell, I say this sunset has guts.
Giant dorks, a lot of them. God, these probably very high theater dorks.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: These guys, like, heard Mary Shelley's story about how Frankenstein was written, and they were like, I know what to do.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: I would like to do that. Yes. I mean, like, that's kind of the whole vibe is like they kind of like everything they're doing is kind of imitating what they think the artistic life is. Right. Like, it's not genuine. It's very much like this is the ideal, the romantic thing. We've, like, we've heard about other artists doing this and we're going to like, create a utopia where we do the same things.
Yeah, it's cosplay.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: But honestly, they were pretty aimless.
Despite the claims to mornings filled with creative work, Sterling's journal seemed to reflect a more unencumbered existence of doing pretty much jack shit. Productive. Just hiking and hanging out and whatnot.
And the environment didn't fix his wandering eye either.
At least two of his many affairs while in Carmel resulted in pregnancies.
Man, come on.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Come on, buddy.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Wrap it up, broski.
He wasn't a guy who fell in love, but instead saw sex as just part of the creative process.
And this was reflected in his and his cohorts attitudes towards women in general.
They had no use for women who weren't pretty, even if they were talented.
Women were there to be either muses or to do your laundry.
As Catherine Prendergast put it, quote, carmel was a roiling pot of exploitation. Women's horizons were limited by the identities the men assigned to them, namely scorned wife and elusive museum.
Prendergrass writes, even when men claimed to want women who were more sexually liberated or allowed to work outside the home, all the negative consequences of the flowering of liberation were women's alone to bear.
Such had been the case for celebrated up and coming poet Nora May French.
French had moved to San Francisco in the wake of the earthquake, lured there by her married boyfriend, Harry Laffler.
Again, being the idealistic and goofy artist types, all wrapped up in their new and exciting love, they lived simply in a house built from earthquake wreckage, unpainted and as close to nature as one could get in a city.
But as often happens in such arrangements, it became clear that Harry was never going to leave his family for her, and their relationship began to be a little more fraught.
Upon becoming pregnant with this child, she knew she could not keep it, in part because she would have to do it alone, and in part because she came from a prominent family that would have disowned her for bringing this shame upon them.
You see, she was the grandniece of Henry Wells, founder of Wells Fargo and American Express, and that was one side of her family. On the other, she was the granddaughter of the ninth governor of Illinois.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like kind of big shoes.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: So she couldn't be out there having bastard children. Willy Nilly just wasn't gonna. Wasn't gonna fly with the fam.
So she took care of it. And this was actually really interesting to me, Ryan. Abortion drugs were fairly readily available in 1906 San Francisco.
I had no idea about this. As Prendergrass writes, quote, her local drugstore boasted an array of cheerfully colored boxes on its shelves, advertised cannily as bringing on suppressed menstruation regulation or the cure.
Dr. Conti's females pins, Chichester's English pennyroyal pills, and Dr. Trousseau's celebrated female cure, Chichester's, sold in small metallic boxes of red and gold, were advertised in the newspaper as safe, devoid of dangerous substances, and always reliable.
Is that crazy?
[00:23:12] Speaker B: How do we get those back? Why did they go away?
[00:23:15] Speaker A: Well.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Okay, maybe not those ones, but, like, yeah, how do we get abortion Right.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Exactly. Do we need to give them all cute names? Is that the way we just need.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: To trick the men?
[00:23:30] Speaker A: That's exactly it. Put them under other names. Yes, precisely. Yeah, put them in cute little box.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: So we just need to give It a new name.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Right? Exactly.
Chai Testers. English Petty Royal Pills. They'll never know.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: They'll never know. They're not gonna look into that.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: But yes, of course, this was not actually safe or reliable as advertised. Not only because they contained chemicals that are obviously bad for you, like turpentine, but even the stuff that they put on the box that was like natural was super dangerous, like pennyroyal.
It's from the Mint family and it can cause cardiovascular collapse, liver damage and death.
Oh, that's some up mint, man.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Jesus.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: What? I didn't know that existed.
Add that to my. My perfect murder method. Put some Penny Royal in somebody's lemonade.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Yes. Crush ups. Wham, bam, you're good.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: I found this mint. Why don't we try and have a.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Little drink with it in my backyard? I just thought it was normal mint.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
So on the one hand, it was super easy to access drugs that would enable you to abort a pregnancy at home. But on the other hand, it was also super easy to die in the process.
Real tossed up.
Still, she risked it. And while going through the excruciating pain of terminating her pregnancy, she penned a letter to Harry explaining her decision, writing, quote, very dear. I have been through deep waters and proved myself cowardly. After all, I have gone through every shade of emotion. It was as if we were walking together and my feet were struggling with some pulling quicksand under the grass. I would come near screaming very often.
And being an actually good poet, unlike our boy Sterling, she added, motherhood. What an unspeakably huge thing for all my fluttering butterflies to drown in a still pool holding the sky a.
Come on, man.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Women.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Women.
Good grief.
Not long after this, while engaged to a timber merchant named Alan Highley, French came to Carmel as a guest of George and Carrie Sterling.
And George fell head over heels for her in that way he did, lusting over her and making her his muse without any thought as to how this might affect her or his wife.
And his wife was long suffering in so many ways, a writer herself, you'd never know it. Her role in the community was endless. Cooking and hosting, supporting the literary and social life of her husband, as he brought in girls like Nora May French to be infatuated with right in front of her.
Meanwhile, French herself was in love with Operation, who was also married with four children, who are all part of the Carmel community.
He ultimately rejected her advances, and these flights of fancy can probably be attributed, at least in part, to her depression, which she wrote about regularly both in her Diaries. And in her poems, suicidal ideation was a constant companion and she would act on that impulse. On November 13, 1907, when she arose in the middle of the night in the Sterling home, casually poured herself a cool drink of cyanide and died.
Yeah, in their house.
George was away, only Carrie was there.
And as I'm sure you can imagine, the press was all over it.
Here she was, this beautiful, young, promising poet living amongst this storied group of pagan, socialist, free loving drug using artists in California, caught up in a web of affairs and now dead of self inflicted cyanide poisoning.
Like even now we wouldn't hear the end of that. Like that would be all over the news. It would be, you know, the news cycle. For months, rumors abounded about the bohemian community and some of them were like, super weird. For example, the Oakland Tribune ran a story claiming that Carrie Sterling had found her on the beach, carried her body inside and thinking she was alive but just cold, climbed into bed with her corpse in an attempt to warm her.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Oh no.
[00:27:53] Speaker A: So detailed. Who comes up with something?
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Like, so many details.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Like it's so macabre.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: Like that's someone who. That's someone who wanted to be part of this community and was like, look how good I can write.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Seriously, let me prove myself in this art.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: This is my audition.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: The San Francisco Call claimed that a friend had had a vision of her death. Just all kinds of bonkers spread because, let's be real, the situation was interesting and salacious as. And newspapers at that point said whatever they wanted. Yeah, wasn't super concerned with the facts.
So just what the hell were these theater kid weirdos doing up there?
People wondered.
And her death took on a weird mythic quality within the community too, according to Sterling's biographer, Thomas Bennett. Ben. Ned.
There's too many letters in this name. B, E, N, E, D, K, T, S, S, O.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: That's too much.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: What do I. What am I to do with that?
Ben. Thomas. Ben. The Thomas group, quote began.
Group began to talk obsessively, almost voluptuously, about suicide as the only appropriate death for a poet or a hedonist. Married dad who had rejected her, wrote, quote, that girl, if I evaded her in life, she certainly has sees me good and plenty in death.
These men are just like the worst. Just the absolute worst. I hate them. I hate them all.
Sterling wrote poems about her death that were published in Century magazine.
And all of this ended up morphing into a weird suicide pact with Bierce's nephew, Carlton Procuring. Them cyanide from his job at the chemical division of the San Francisco Mint.
They then divided it up amongst them in vials, which they kept to quickly dispatch themselves if life got too hard or tedious.
There's every reason to believe that this was largely a bunch of artists just being dramatic, right? Like, you know, it's the kind of thing that you would do, like, as a teenager. Like, I keep this cyanide in case it gets too much.
It's really silly. The husband of one participant laughed out loud as she said, it was kind of a cult, though. Marty, her husband, was not gonna do it. He lived his life out.
Still, violence and death ended up plaguing the community.
A scourge that some said was set off by French's death. Like, she'd put it into everybody's heads as some sort of social contagion.
Women. Am I right?
I mean, if you, like, only look at women as, like, muses that inspire you, then, like, yeah, sure, I guess. Then she kills herself, and then everybody's like, to me too, I just do what the muse says.
So ridiculous.
In. In 1914, artist Helena Woodsmith was found strangled on the beach after having been missing for days.
The New York Times ran an article at the time in which the racism is pretty thinly veiled.
They said, quote, suspicion was immediately directed at George Kodani, a Japanese artist photographer who had been a frequent visitor at Ms. Smith's cottage. He had remained at Carmel by the sea since her disappearance and had appeared to be greatly concerned about her fate. But on the discovery of the crime, the party of searchers, headed by Frederick R. Bechdolt, the novelist, went to Sheriff W.J. nesbit and laid before him their grounds of suspicion.
Sheriff Nesbitt arrested Kodani at once. The Japanese at first insisted he was innocent and argued that Miss Smith must have fallen from a cliff near the spot on the beach where she was found.
This, however, did not account for the cord about her throat or for the burial in the sand. And after a long questioning, the Japanese admitted that he had killed her.
I did it in self defense, he said. We had been taking a walk on the beach. She cried because the laws of California prohibited her marriage to a Japanese. We quarreled and she attacked me with a knife, and I had to kill her to save myself.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Lot going on here. Her friends and family, for their part, claimed that it was bullshit that she'd wanted to marry him and said he'd done it to steal a $252 check from her.
And a similarly fucked up article from the Sausalito News described the spectacle of his trial. Quote, crowds of the morbidly curious flock to the city hall to be present at the eliminate at the preliminary hearing of George Kodani, the Japanese who has confessed to the killing of Ms. Helena Wood Smith, the Carmel artist. Policemen laborers, Japanese members of the Carmel Artist Colony, many young girls and outside visitors worked their way into the building in a few frantic endeavor to get a glimpse of the Oriental who has brought upon himself and the Monterey Pen peninsula so much notoriety.
He was not represented by an attorney, and he had no case to present.
When the case of the people had been submitted. Justice of the Peace Ernest Michalis ruled that Kodani be held to answer to the charge of willful and premeditated murder in the Superior Court and that he'd be bound over without bail Lot to unpack in all of that goodness. And earlier that year, writer Alice McGowan retrieved some chili cone carne from her back porch in the Carmel colony and spat it out because it tasted weird.
She assumed that it was spoiled. She also found in the cooler an unfamiliar tin of marshmallows, which she assumed had been a gift. Alice here is kind of the definition of that. What happens when we assume joke. The dads always tell, like, girl, think this through, all right?
She gave the marshmallows to a Japanese man named Aki, which is Kyo's brother's name, who did odd jobs around her house. And upon biting into one, he became violently ill, convulsing and dropping to the floor.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: He recovered thankfully. But upon inspection, it was found that the marshmallow had been hollowed out and filled with strychnine.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Great.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: Apparently enough strychnine to have wiped out the whole colony.
Seems overboard.
Oh, my God. Yeah.
McGowan had no idea who could have had any reason to want her dead. And indeed, it might not have been fully about her, as several other women in the colony received threats about watching out for strychnine in their food.
The culprit was never identified.
But predictably, after the death of Helena Wood Smith, people blamed Kodani for the McGowan incident as well.
And an article in Alta Online suggests that all of this shit could very well have been the result of anti orientalism that was rampant at the time. As Kodani was never really given a fair shake or fair trial to defend himself. He was just immediately assumed guilty based on the suspicions of the colony.
So we don't know if he did any of this stuff, including that murder. He may have just sort of been coerced to confess. And he wasn't given an attorney to, you know, really say his side of the story. So we may never know what really happened there.
Sometime in late 1913 or early, early 1914, Ambrose Bierce disappeared at the age of 71, having inexplicably ridden off to join the Mexican Revolution, according to letters he'd written to Sterling. And he's suspected to have died in, like, a skirmish. But for all we know, he never even actually went. No one ever saw him again. It's complete mystery.
This guy just was like, deuces about. I go into Mexico for reasons just gone so weird. So goddamn weird.
Jack London died of a morphine overdose in 1916, which may or may not have been a suicide. We don't know. But he was only 40, which is bananas. Like, can. All these people are so young. And like most of these people, you've never really like these, like, Ambrose Beers and stuff like that you've heard of, but, like, a good chunk of these, like, we don't really know. But Jack London wrote a ton of shit that we've all been forced to read and watch movies of things over the course of our lifetimes, and he did that before overdosing at 40.
Wow, right?
[00:36:28] Speaker B: My life's almost over, I guess, right?
[00:36:30] Speaker A: Like, I will be 40, like, three months. What am I doing over here?
I have made 225 episodes of a podcast, I'll have you know, Jack.
So take that. That's true.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: Doing great.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: In 1914, Carrie Sterling, who had divorced George a few years before, engaged the cyanide from the suicide pact while listening to Chopin's Piano Sonata Number 2, otherwise titled the Funeral March.
The Los Angeles Herald read ran an article reading, quote, Mrs. Carrie Sterling, divorced wife of George Sterling, noted California poet.
I hate that so much, is dead today at her bungalow in Piedmont, having swallowed poison last evening after giving all her personal trinkets to friends and attaching tags to her furniture and other possessions, telling to whom they were to go.
She had been increasingly despondent since her divorce three years ago and left notes saying the beauty had all gone from her life.
Carrie deserved better than this man.
Terrible, terrible stuff.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: That's rough.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: Meanwhile, George's drinking worsened in the wake of her death, till he became more or less unable to function, engaged with society anymore. And in his room above a Bohemian Club dinner In honor of H.L. mencken in 1926, George, too, used the cyanide he'd been carrying for over a decade since the suicide pact.
He had burned his papers before doing the deed, but one line survived on a burnt up page reading, quote, deeper into the darkness can I peer than most yet find the darkness still, beyond which I'll grant you know, kind of a banger to go out on. It's like a. Not bad. It's not like the bear went over the mountain of depression.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: All right, George.
One last one for the road.
In what may be a bit of irony, or maybe exactly what you'd expect, the Carmel artist colony had produced very little that bore the test of time.
But artists continued to follow their lead and move into the area, albeit just kind of to live and work rather than to create some weird cult like they had done.
Residents and visitors to the area included Henry Miller, Langston Hughes, Jack Kerouac, and it's Edna St. Vincent Malay, D.H. lawrence, George Gershwin, Charlie Chaplin, and on and on and on.
But these days, an up and coming artist would have to have a real sizable trust fund or patron in order to relive the glory days of those folks with medium median home prices in Carmel hovering at a breezy $1.2 million.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Oh, man. Just out of reach.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: Oh, so close. Maybe. Maybe if we pool our funds, we can do it.
[00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: So. So while the weird cult at Carmel by the Seas Legacy is now a bunch of overpriced homes full of bougie white people, for a moment they were the center of California's artistic scene. And their short lived experiment inspired the likes of Kerouac and those new bohemians and beats of the 1950s and 60s.
How you feel about that depends on your opinion of that cohort. But it is one way in which what otherwise might have been a total violent, suicidal, infidelity ridden wash lives on.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: Bonkers, right?
My God, isn't that a heck of a thing?
[00:40:04] Speaker B: We've really gotta stop putting all the artists together in one place.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: That's actually the moral of the story. The moral of the story.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: You gotta have like, I don't know, like a psychiatrist.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: Big time. Right? You gotta keep them separated.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, Jesus.
Yeah. So my. My book recommendation based on.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: Right, yeah.
[00:40:33] Speaker B: Artist, Commune and Bad Things Happening. There is a Delilah S. Dawson book called It Only Hurts for a Moment or it'll. For a Moment.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: All right.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: It is. It's. It's real, real good.
There is a lot of trigger warnings for sexual assault, but it's like a memory. It's not like an actual. It's not like actively happening it's flashbacks, but it is haunted as Nice.
[00:41:02] Speaker A: I'm always down for that.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: And it's great. It's like, this woman is like, yeah, I'm gonna, like, take my life back. I'm, like, escaping my abusive. Whoever, whatever. I'm going. And I'm going to go to this, like, commune and, like, work on my art. And then, like, nothing good starts.
Yeah, nothing good ever happens at an.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Artist, multiple brothers who are raised in communes. And I'm just saying, zero stars.
Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. Yes, please do.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Fucking look at these nerds.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Oh, mise en scene. Think anyone has ever said measles said in such a horny way before? The way I whispered the word sex Cannibal routine. Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: Thank you. That's really, really sweet.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm. I'm going to leg it. You know how I feel about that, Mark.
I think you feel great about it.
Ryan.
Ryan Clark.
Hello.
Hello.
Thank you so much for joining me this fine Monday.
Our dear Mark is suffering.
He's ill.
He woke up yesterday and had a extremely sore throat and headache and couldn't speak and has sores in his mouth and very fun things like that.
So hopefully next week that'll be sorted out. But for now, he could not talk to be on this podcast. But luckily, our good friend Ryan, bookseller Ryan of Gibson's Bookstore and the Lay down podcast, is here to join us. So thank you for coming along. You're having a good day? You're having a good week? Everything going well?
[00:42:51] Speaker B: Yeah, things are good. I. I finally had a normal week last week. The week before, I was at a, like, industry conference.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. I looked when you said, you know, oh, I'm at an industry thing in Connecticut. I was like, oh, where is it? Maybe. Maybe I'm nearby. I'm like, nope, other side.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Other side.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: Two and a half hours from here. Yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
So that was super fun, but totally threw off my whole schedule of, like, I don't know where I am when I am.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Like, that's amazing. Like, the, like, littlest change in routine. This is just one of those, like, adult realities, you know, it's like life in your. Your 30s and whatnot is where it starts to be that, like, the. The most minor change in things, and all of a sudden you're like, time has no meaning anymore. I don't know who I am. Like, yep. What is our purpose?
[00:43:43] Speaker B: What. What even. What is my job? What do I do? What am I doing here? What's happening?
[00:43:48] Speaker A: So you're settled back in, though, so.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Settled in. I'm settled in. Came home with a. A lot of books, of course, and, you know, got to. Got to chill with Joe Hill.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: So that was. I know, right? That's super rad. That's so cool. How did you end up. I saw you introduced Joe Hill and, you know, his talk at this thing. How did that work out?
[00:44:10] Speaker B: Yeah, so I am on the board of the New England Independent Bookseller Association.
[00:44:16] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:44:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm on the board of directors, and so I get to help plan the art industry conferences.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: Nice. So you get dibs.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: I get dibs, basically.
And I've been introducing authors at these things for years now. I think the first one was Aaron Morgenstern.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: 2019 bucket list.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Shit. Right there.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: Yes. Started with the bucket list one.
[00:44:46] Speaker A: That way you're comfortable. From that point forward, you've already, like, hit, like, oh, my favorite author.
I was like, so everything else is smooth sailing, easy peasy.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: And. Yeah, and so, you know, I kind of had like, a.
You know, I'd done a bunch of these. You know, they. They would reach out and be like, hey, Ryan, we know you like this author. Do you want to introduce them?
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Okay. And I had, you know, proven myself that I can, like, yeah, do a decent intro and, like, not fangirl too much.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: The author and, like, just appropriate amount.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: So I've gotten to introduce Aaron Morgenstern, Grady Hendrix, so many others that I'm, like, blanking on right now. I've done it so many times, and, yeah, it was really funny. I don't even remember the conversation where I must have volunteered to introduce Joe Hill. Probably, like, in a meeting. It was probably like, and, Ryan, you'll introduce him. And I was probably like, yeah, of course.
It was like, I got an email, like, a week before the conference that was like, and here's the run of show, and obviously Ryan will introduce Joe Hill. And I was like, oh, I should write an intro for this.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: A really good idea. Who would be figuring out what I'm gonna say?
[00:46:04] Speaker B: But, yeah, so that was fun. So I got to, like, chill with him in the green room a little bit, and he's a delight, so I love that.
[00:46:10] Speaker A: It's always lovely to hear, you know, you want to think good things, people. Oh, yeah, what's it called?
[00:46:17] Speaker B: Yeah, the. It's called King Sorrow. And it's very like, deal with the devil, revenge, karma, kind of. But also the. The thing that they've made a deal with is a huge, scary dragon demon that demands human sacrifices.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Excellent. I think, you know, one of the things about Joe Hill is I feel like there's a lot of parallels between him and his father's work. But I do think that, like, in some ways, he has managed to avoid some of the snafus of Stephen King things and, you know, in many ways is kind of the better author of the two of them, not the more popular of the two of them, but I think, you know, but his work is often more complete.
Less dialogue from space, things like that. But a lot of similar sort of themes and. And ideas.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. This one's fun. It's huge.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: It's that he does get from his father.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: That he does get from his dad, which I feel like he doesn't always do. Like, horns is not very long, like. Well, he does a lot of, like.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: Short story, which I guess Stephen King does, too. Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, I guess it's a mix.
[00:47:31] Speaker B: This one is like a full, like, I don't know, three inches thing.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Massive.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: And I brought home, like, three arcs of it.
[00:47:39] Speaker A: Nice. Excellent.
You need a doorstop.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. You're great.
But that was fun. That was fun. I've been, you know, doing a lot of events, horror events at the bookstore.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: Love it. Love to see it. I always wish that New Hampshire was just, like, a little closer so that it'd be easy.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: There have been so many that I'm.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: Like, oh, Corey would love this. Yes, I would have so much fun. The thing is, the last time that I went to an event there, too, like, I feel like. I feel like it's longer, it's farther away than it is because there was, like, an insane rainstorm when we went, and the traffic was, like, through the roof and, like, so it took, like, two hours longer than it was supposed to. To get there, too. So, you know, one of these days I'll make it out for another one of those things. But I did get also a signed book from you, from Chuck Wendig's last voyage over there. So at least I did. I did manage to get that this time.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: It's true.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: For my mom, who has a weird obsession with staircases in the woods, there was, like, this period of, like, six months where constantly. To me and my sister, she was constantly asking us, have you heard about those staircases in the woods?
She never remembered that she had asked us this. She was always coming downstairs. Have you heard about those staircases in the woods? Just for like six months straight, constantly.
And so I think I texted you at the time when the, like, when I heard. In fact, it was because he had, like, mentioned it at.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: You were at Gibson's. I was at the event that birthed this book. Right. And so, you know, it's come up a few times and I was like, I need.
Because this is an obsession of hers. So it's finally out and her birthday is in a week and a half or whatever, so.
[00:49:33] Speaker B: Excellent.
[00:49:34] Speaker A: I'm a good daughter.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: Excellent.
[00:49:37] Speaker A: This is gonna. Now, though, she's gonna go back to asking. She's gonna text my sister immediately, be like, hey, have you heard about staircases in the woods?
[00:49:45] Speaker B: She can come to New Hampshire and visit.
[00:49:47] Speaker A: Come see one.
[00:49:48] Speaker B: The one from the book.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: The origin story of this.
And it is pret.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: It is the one in the book as well. It's not named, but it is in New.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Yes. Like, it is the one that is directly being referenced.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:04] Speaker A: Pretty neat. Yeah. I like that. I was there for the, you know, inception of the whole thing, which is pretty fun.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it was so cute. The person who.
So for people who don't know, like, he tells the story in the acknowledgments of, like, being at Gibsons, and he, like, shouts me out specifically. And he, like, tells the story of how someone in the audience was like, oh, have you visited this? The staircase in the woods at Madame Sherry Forest. And he goes. The next day, he sees it, and then he writes the book.
The person. That person from the audience, he, like, couldn't remember his name. He reached out on Instagram.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: It was like, oh, good.
I'm so glad they reconnected. That's rad. Hopefully, you know, he gets, you know. Yeah. A super signed copy.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: I hope so.
[00:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
The next edition. He'll be mentioned.
[00:50:49] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: In the acknowledgments.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Well, we'll get into some.
Some horror wrecks from you this day, but we are gonna. We're gonna do a little what we watch. Because you said this time you have actually gotten to see a few horrors.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: I've seen some movies recently anymore.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: What a glorious thing. So what have you seen lately, Ryan?
[00:51:13] Speaker B: Okay, well, I. Okay, I did. I did see Sinners.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: You saw Sinners?
[00:51:21] Speaker B: I. I took myself to the movies to go see Sinners.
[00:51:24] Speaker A: Beautiful. At least somebody listened to me. I still can't get Mark to do it. He's now like, I'm not going because I want to see Final Destination more so I don't like Butt Head. Fucking idiot.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: I.
Oh, my God. What a flick.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: What a flick. Yeah.
[00:51:43] Speaker B: Holy moly.
I can't, like. I don't. I don't want to, like, talk too much about it.
[00:51:49] Speaker A: Right. That's the thing is joy to. Yeah. To watch it unfold and experience. Right, Exactly. Like, you know, there's enough memes and things like that about it that I'm sure people have come across things, but it really.
It's one of those things that's worth seeing for yourself and not having someone delve into.
Yeah.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: It's just everyone go see it. Support.
Support horror in the theaters and support black movies.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: Yes. Interestingly, like, Final Destination is so huge that apparently it beat Sinner's opening box office, which is crazy. So, like, two horror movies in a row that just, like, absolutely owned everything.
[00:52:31] Speaker B: I'm telling you, people make the movie forever love to go see horror.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: We're the audience show up.
[00:52:38] Speaker B: Like, that's the thing.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: They don't give awards for the movies people go to.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: No, but they should.
[00:52:46] Speaker A: But they should. They absolutely should.
What else?
[00:52:49] Speaker B: Have a horror Oscars. That's true.
Let's see. Not horror, but I did go see Thunderbolts, which was delightful.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Surprising one, right?
[00:53:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: It's like very pleasantly surprised by Thunderbolts.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: Listen, this.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: I.
[00:53:08] Speaker B: If anybody needs to be convinced to go see Thunderbolts, I. I. Depending on your flavor in person, you either have Bucky Barnes in a tight black T shirt taking off his leather jacket and True. Preparing to fight and like, that scene of that. That, like, gif alone is worth the price of admission.
Sure. Or you have Florence Pugh just being Florence, viewing around like, you.
That's truly. That's all you need. And then you have Bill Pullman's son being an absolute delight. Right.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: He's a treasure. It's so funny because I have this thing, like, I. I have. I don't like younger boys. I'm not like, a tr. Like, if someone's under 35, they are invisible to me. And I was like, why is it that I keep seeing this guy? And, like, for some reason I find him attractive. Like, it's bothering me. And then I was like, Bill Pullman's kid. That's. Yeah. Like, because he looks like his dad. Really? Because I'm thinking about the older guy that I had a crush on since I was, you know, a kid watching Independence Day. Now it all makes sense.
But he's. He's. Yeah. Just a delight. I like him A lot.
[00:54:27] Speaker B: He. He was. He was so, so good.
[00:54:30] Speaker A: Bob.
Bob.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: And then I watched a few movies at home.
I watched one on Shudder called the Rule of Jenny Penn.
[00:54:42] Speaker A: Oh, we watched that one. What did you say?
[00:54:45] Speaker B: I was pleasantly surprised by that. I had no idea going in, I was like, this is. I don't know what this is, but the cast is unbelievable.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Right?
[00:54:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, okay.
And my entire review is just getting old, man.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: That was basically what we came to as well. If you didn't listen to us talk about this one a few weeks ago. The Rule of Jenny Penn or the Rule of Genie Pin, a New Zealand movie starring John Lithgow and Jeffrey Rush that is basically about the horrors of aging and losing memory and your faculties and things like that as someone, you know, uses that to. To torment you and whatnot.
And. Yeah, it's on Shudder. Rule of Jenny Pen. And it's worth a. Worth your 90 minutes or whatever to watch.
[00:55:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. I think if it had gone on much longer, I think I would have.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: Been like, be too much.
[00:55:43] Speaker B: Oh, God. But had a nice little arc, and then it was over. And then it was. But yeah.
[00:55:49] Speaker A: And then you can just sit with your mortality.
[00:55:52] Speaker B: Good boy. Yeah.
I saw Heart Eyes, which I know is.
Has mixed reviews.
[00:56:01] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.
I.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: So I came to Josh Rubin through the Dropout.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: And so I love him.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:13] Speaker B: Because I came to him through, like.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: He'S great and game changer.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: And like, him. He's like, friends with Brandon Lee Mulligan, and I love him and I want to put him in my pocket. And so I watched it because I.
[00:56:25] Speaker A: Was like, I want to support this.
[00:56:27] Speaker B: Cute, adorable. And then I was like, oh, he's got a whole ass career. What the fuck?
[00:56:30] Speaker A: Yeah, like, exactly.
It's so funny because that's like, my sister is the same way. Like, she, you know, she only knows him from Dropout.
And I had said, like, I was like, oh, yeah, I don't really vibe with his movies in general. Like, I like him, but I. I don't vibe with that. And I remember the first time that I watched, like, make some noise or something, he showed up and I was like, is that Josh Rubin? What's going on here? It's my frame of reference. The exact opposite.
It's like, it's the guy who directed, like, Scare Me and Werewolves Within. What's going on here?
[00:57:02] Speaker B: Oh, it's so funny. And so I think. So I.
I liked Heart Eyes, but here's why I'm gonna. I'm gonna defend it because. I know. Because I can see why people hate it.
[00:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I was mid on it. Like.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:19] Speaker A: Mark kind of hated it. I was more mid mid on it.
[00:57:22] Speaker B: And I. I totally get it.
But to me, it was like.
It had a lot of the same vibes and, like, like, direction choices that the, like, late 90s, early 2000s movies.
[00:57:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: He made it in between, like, Scream and I know what you did last summer, but then, like, put it out in 2025.
[00:57:51] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. It definitely.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: That's why I liked it, because it was like. It was very, like, goofy, cheesy, like, dumb dialogue, like.
[00:58:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Dumb characters, but then, like, you know, some decent gore and, like, some fun little twists. So, like, it's just. It's a good time. It's not a great time, but it's a good time.
[00:58:12] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Even having, like, the two, you know, detectives and all that kind of stuff and your monologue villains and even stuff that I didn't like about it is, like. It does feel very much like it is of that period that I really like, which I think is why I didn't, like, hate it as much as Mark did. I just, for me, like, the thing in his movies is that the, like, winky, nudgy humor gets really grading after a while.
[00:58:39] Speaker B: Totally. And I.
[00:58:40] Speaker A: But I like the idea and, like, you know. Yeah, yeah. It has good gore. It has a lot of. I like the setup. All of that stuff.
Just the humor went a little too. And, like, I don't like monologue villains, and it went, like, a little too far.
[00:58:57] Speaker B: I was, like, cackling. I was like, yeah. So, like, stop telling me your plan.
[00:59:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
Just. Okay. This is. This is how you get interrupted and killed.
Yeah.
[00:59:10] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, but. Yeah. And again, I think, because I came from him as a comedian.
[00:59:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:18] Speaker B: As a horror director, I was like, yeah, this is Josh Rubin's humor. Like this.
[00:59:22] Speaker A: Yeah. You're more primed for, like. You're looking for that.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:59:26] Speaker B: So I liked it, but I fully understand, like, I won't fight anyone who didn't like it, because I'm like. No, I get. I get. I get that. It's not for everyone.
[00:59:34] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:59:36] Speaker B: And then what else? The Ugly Stepsister.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Mark and I watched that one this week as well. You enjoyed this one? You enjoyed it?
[00:59:46] Speaker B: I did not at first.
[00:59:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:59:51] Speaker B: It started and I was like, who.
Who the fuck edited this?
[00:59:55] Speaker A: Like, and for those who don't, who haven't, like, gotten in on this action yet movie just released on Shudder from Norway. That is like a body horror take on Cinderella. Yeah, right. Yes, Cinderella. I always. My entire life, I've always gotten Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty mixed up. So it always takes me a second. I'm like, so which one is the Ella Enchanted? Yep, it's Cinderella.
[01:00:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the Cinderella story.
It's the. The grim version that they're. That they're riffing on.
[01:00:28] Speaker A: Right. Like the. The dark version. And it's. Dark version from sort of. I mean, I don't even know if this really. It sort of focuses on one of the ugly stepsisters. Not necessarily from her perspective kind of, but yeah. Focuses on a little bit.
[01:00:42] Speaker B: But, yeah, she's the really. The main character.
So it started and it looked like one of those, like, really bad made for TV movies.
[01:00:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:54] Speaker B: And I was like, okay. And then it was not in English and I was like, oh, no.
[01:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah. That was a surprise. Neither of us knew that when we turned it on, I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
[01:01:08] Speaker B: And. And I don't mind subtitles. I know that you don't like them. I use them for everything because. Right. My brain works.
But I was like, okay, all right. I don't. But, like, I was gonna, like, play phone games. I guess I have to focus now.
[01:01:23] Speaker A: I have to sit here and watch it. Yeah.
[01:01:25] Speaker B: But then, you know, as it. As it went on, I. I think what I liked the most about it was the gore was just like how. How gross it got at the end.
I don't know. I kind of.
I see. I love a twist on a fairy tale. That's. That's like I went through when I started at the bookstore. I was like the YA specialist. And it was like during the time of the twisted fairy tales, like, that was like, the thing.
[01:01:56] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:01:56] Speaker B: And I read all of them.
[01:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Target audience.
[01:02:01] Speaker B: Cinderella in space, Right.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:02:02] Speaker B: Give me Beauty and the Beast in the woods, in the Whatever. Give it all to me. Injected in my veins.
[01:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:02:10] Speaker B: And so, you know, I did like that this was not just a twist on Cinderella, but the fact that it was the stepsister that we were focusing on, that we were actually getting to, like, sympathize with this poor girl who goes through, like, all of these fucking body modifications that her mother demands of her so that she can go to the ball and, like, you know, get the prince to fall in love with her. And the more she does, the more hideous she becomes. Like, it's like you're looking back and.
[01:02:47] Speaker A: You'Re like, you were so cute at the beginning. What's happening?
[01:02:50] Speaker B: Come on it's like, meanwhile, Cinderella is being Cinderella, of course, and. But, like, kind of bitchy, but.
[01:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Very dislikable.
[01:03:01] Speaker B: Very dislikeable in this one.
[01:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:04] Speaker B: And then. And then the other sister is just, like, off in the shadows, living her.
[01:03:09] Speaker A: Life, doing her thing, riding her horses.
[01:03:11] Speaker B: She's like, oh, the.
The guy who takes care of the horses got fired. I guess I'll do it. Like, whatever. And, like, comes into her own beauty.
[01:03:22] Speaker A: Like, it just was like, she's the hero of the movie. Really.
[01:03:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I just. Like, it, to me, was such, like, beauty industry horror, but set in, like, whenever that is. A long time ago.
[01:03:37] Speaker A: A long, long time ago. Yeah.
I was trying to explain this to somebody else the other day, and I was like, it's set in Cinderella times.
[01:03:46] Speaker B: Cinderella times.
[01:03:48] Speaker A: I don't know when that's supposed to be. Yeah. I don't know. It's. To me, I think, like, with this one, I think it's somehow slim, like, sort of slamming you in the face with its beauty industry message while also not really challenging it in any meaningful way. Because ultimately it kind of ends up with, like, yeah, I mean, if you are ugly, you don't get a man, and if you're pretty, you get a man. Like, it's kind of one of those things where it's like, when you get to. And, like, I don't know really what it's like. Like, I know what it is telling me. It's saying. I don't know that it's said that.
[01:04:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:24] Speaker A: In it.
[01:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:25] Speaker A: And I felt like the whole time it was very much so focused on, like, the body horror in it that it felt like the characters in the story kind of fell to the wayside. And it just kind of assumed, like, you guys know what Cinderella is about.
That's what this is.
Yeah.
We don't need to tell you anything. You know this. So let's just focus on her, like, chopping off her feet and eating a tapeworm so that, like, by midway through the movie, I was like, I don't totally know, like, if I'm supposed to sympathize with anyone or anything like that, or if I'm supposed to hate everybody. But also, I'm just wondering what's going to happen with the worm?
And that was, like, most of the movie, the only thing I was thinking about was, like, what's gonna happen with the worm? And not, like, how is this a commentary on, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, or whatever. Like, it felt just too, like. It is. It's it's very much telling me its message without necessarily, like, earning that. And so I kind of. And it very much, to me, like, it was so focused on, like, the body horror and the gross and the shock, you know, like when there's like all of a sudden, like, whole and the whole penis and stuff like that, like, on screen, that I was like, what is it saying? Yeah, like when you show me just a single shot of a hard dick for 10 seconds, like, what am I supposed to process about that? Like, what? Or are you just going, look, penis.
Let's focus on this girl's upward facing naked asshole. Yeah, what am I supposed to get from that? Like, other than like, you thought this was going to shock me? You know, that was kind of my thing with the Ugly Stepsisters. I think it was just so focused on what if we made this really gross and really, like, you know, sexual and things like that and not enough on, like, what are we really saying in this story?
Someone said that this movie tried to reheat the substances nachos and failed. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's basically what I get out of this. Like, you know, people. People complain about the substance being obvious or whatever, but there's more layers, I think, to what it's saying. And that's why people think it's OB because they go, they look at it and they see one thing and they're not looking at all the other things that it's saying. I feel like this is the reverse of that where it's like, it's. Yeah, it's got a thing. It's trying to tell you it's not really doing it.
It's saying that.
So. But that said, like, Mark and I both didn't like it, but we are in the minority on that. A lot of people really love this movie. So, you know, your mileage will absolutely vary depending on just like, what you're looking for in the movie.
[01:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah. 100. It's.
It's a good, you know, it's a good time if you just want some, like, good body horror.
[01:07:15] Speaker A: Like, if you just, like, want to watch something. Yeah, it's a shutter.
[01:07:18] Speaker B: You know what I mean?
[01:07:19] Speaker A: Expectations should be at Shutter.
[01:07:21] Speaker B: It's like a shudder original or whatever. Not original, but it's like one of the featured ones on Shutter. So, like, do with that what you will. Right. Like, we all know that shudder is cheap for a reason. Like, yeah, he loves them, you support them.
And also, this is not in theaters, right?
[01:07:39] Speaker A: Exactly. There's a reason this did not get wide distribution. It's. It's for the sickos or whatever, you know, like.
[01:07:46] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:07:46] Speaker A: And so if that's kind of.
Yeah.
[01:07:49] Speaker B: If you read the grim fairy tale version and you want to see.
[01:07:52] Speaker A: You want to see it up.
[01:07:55] Speaker B: Happen to the ugly stepsister.
[01:07:58] Speaker A: Right?
[01:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. This is for you.
[01:08:02] Speaker A: I also feel like I'm like, you know, I'm not like a huge twisted fairy tales person either. But also a thing I've said many on times on here is I just. I don't like not liking everybody in a movie and Alma isn't in. In it enough to save it for me, so. That's true. I'm just like. I don't just kill them all. It's fine.
[01:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's fair. Whereas I was, like, very sympathetic to, like, I was like, very, like, oh, this poor girl. Like, my God, like, all she wanted was to, like, like, have a nice life with the prince. And he's an.
[01:08:36] Speaker A: And he's horrible. Yeah. It's tough, though, because she is. She is a.
And.
[01:08:42] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, she's not. Yeah, she's crazy.
[01:08:46] Speaker A: Yeah, she's absolutely crazy.
[01:08:49] Speaker B: She gets it from her mama.
[01:08:50] Speaker A: Yeah, right. It's, you know, family drama, and she is not breaking that cycle, that's for sure. No, she is steeped in it for sure.
Yeah. Did you watch anything else other than. Than those ones?
[01:09:06] Speaker B: It's a good question. I think if I did, I don't think I.
[01:09:13] Speaker A: They were not worth letterbox.
[01:09:15] Speaker B: I've been. I've been watching, like, the Last of Us.
[01:09:18] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
You know, catching up on the TVs. Catch up on the TV. I watched that Steve Carell show on Netflix, the Forces.
[01:09:26] Speaker A: Oh, how is that? Yeah, it was.
[01:09:29] Speaker B: It was surprisingly. I guess.
[01:09:31] Speaker A: I think I've heard that it's pretty good.
[01:09:32] Speaker B: Steve, Carl and Tina Fey.
[01:09:33] Speaker A: It was good. Sure. Yeah.
[01:09:35] Speaker B: It's a great cast.
[01:09:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I've heard good things.
[01:09:38] Speaker B: It's funny. It's what I like about it is that all of the times you think it's gonna go in that, like, really cringy direction where you're like, oh, no, there's been a misunderstanding and they're not gonna talk to each other. It kind of subverts that and, like, just doesn't.
[01:09:52] Speaker A: It's the Ted Lasso way. Yeah. It's like, you think, like, cringy thing is gonna. It's gonna curb your enthusiasm and then instead, like, no, actually, yeah. People talk to each other, so.
Yeah, I liked it.
[01:10:04] Speaker B: I liked it.
Genuinely looking forward to another Season of it.
[01:10:09] Speaker A: So nice. That's good. I've been watching a few TV shows lately mostly because I've been grading and stuff and so like I always want to focus on movies and TV is better background sometimes. Like I tried to watch, I was trying to catch up on Doctor who the other day and watch like three episodes while grading but then I was like, I don't know what happened, how any of these things resolved. I'm going to have to watch them again. So didn't work out. But I also, I put on his background the other day, the Minecraft movie, thinking that could be background but I was so confused the whole time that that was also distracting. I have never seen a more inside baseball movie in my life where it's just like if you are not, you know, under the age of 14 and have dedicated your life to this, there is nothing for you in this. It does not attempt to like bridge the gap at all. It's not, it's not Shrek, it's not a Pixar, 14 year olds, right? Like it is for the kids. It's for the kids. It is not. There is no attempt to make this like, oh, it's for the whole family. Like, no, no, your kid is going to go batshit crazy for it and you are going to be sitting there like, am I on drugs? Like I genuinely felt drunk and like had to remind myself I don't drink like because I was like genuinely like, I feel crazy.
What's happening?
Yeah, Minecraft movie.
[01:11:38] Speaker B: That's funny.
[01:11:39] Speaker A: Needless I did not rate that one on letterbox because I just had no idea what was going on.
But I did. I watched a really fun one the other day as we are in the resurgence of Josh Hartnett and he is in a new action movie called Fight or Flight. Have you seen this yet?
[01:11:59] Speaker B: Oh no.
[01:12:01] Speaker A: God, it is so stupid and so fun in all the ways that you want. Josh Hartnett plays like washed up former like assassin who worked for the government until somehow we know that he like was kind of like cut off and now he's like sort of stuck living in Thailand I think or maybe it's the Philippines. He's living somewhere where he just kind of drinks all day and you know, that's about it. But he's called back in to do one more job which is to find this, this hacker person who has been interfering with governments and with businesses and things like that. But the only problem is they don't know what this person looks like. They only know they will be on this Flight.
So he has to identify who that person is on this flight. But there's one more problem, Ryan.
[01:13:00] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[01:13:02] Speaker A: Everyone else on the plane is looking for them too, and they're all trained assassins.
[01:13:09] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[01:13:11] Speaker A: Like, come on.
Are you kidding me right now? It sounds like so much fun. So much fun. And Josh Hartnett is clearly having the time of his life. Just like in Trap. Like, whatever you think of that movie. There's no.
No question that Josh Hartnett is having a good time.
Same thing with Fight or Flight. He is having the time of his life in this movie, and it is a blast. It's so much fun. So find this one, track it down, rent it, whatever. It's a good time.
[01:13:40] Speaker B: I love that.
[01:13:41] Speaker A: Love it.
So, Ryan.
[01:13:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:13:45] Speaker A: You got some recommendations for our horror heads here?
[01:13:48] Speaker B: I mean, always.
[01:13:51] Speaker A: That's what I like to hear. That's what we keep you around for.
[01:13:56] Speaker B: Always, all the time, forever.
And, like, I'm pulling up my.
My list right now. There are two places people can go anytime if they're like, I want a book recommended by Ryan, but I don't know how to get in touch with her, which is silly because I'm all over the Internet.
[01:14:20] Speaker A: It's true. Yes.
[01:14:22] Speaker B: You can either follow me on storygraph, because I update it multiple times a day, constantly reading, like five books at a time.
I'm always there and I. And I put all my reviews on there as well. Or you can go to my staff picks
[email protected] Ryan. Nice and easy. That is very easy where I'm going right now.
[01:14:51] Speaker A: Beautiful.
Looking up your own recommendations.
[01:14:54] Speaker B: All the good ones.
[01:14:55] Speaker A: Nice.
[01:14:55] Speaker B: Love it.
So the.
So obviously we already talked about a little bit about Staircase in the woods, but I do just want to actually, like, fully recommend because it is so, so good. So it's by Chuck Wendig. It is.
He's an author that. Oh, I bet you can hear my kids now. My kids are home.
[01:15:19] Speaker A: Justin Le.
[01:15:22] Speaker B: Shout out to the little ones.
He is someone that I recommend for people who read a lot of Stephen King because he does a lot of the same kind of like really big stories.
[01:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:15:38] Speaker B: Multiple things happening at once.
Huge cast, but he ties them up at the end.
[01:15:47] Speaker A: Yeah, he's very good at ending a story.
[01:15:51] Speaker B: Good at ending a story. So I'm like, if you want to, like, graduate from Stephen King into other horror, go with a Chuck Wendig. Doesn't matter which one. Like, they're all good.
And this one is really, really fun in part because it's Set in New Hampshire.
[01:16:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:16:08] Speaker B: But it's a group of teens go out partying in the woods. They find a staircase in the woods, and one of them goes up it and disappears.
[01:16:18] Speaker A: Nice.
[01:16:19] Speaker B: And.
And the teens just kind of panic and leave. Like, they just like, pretend they don't know what happened, and they just kind of like, move on with their lives, acting as if he just went missing in the woods. And they like, nice. Cops never find a body. Right. Like, it's just like, yeah, we don't know.
And then, much like it, years later, they come back together, and one of them gets the group back together, and they're. And he's like, yeah, I found another staircase, and we're gonna go find our friend into it.
[01:17:00] Speaker A: I'm there.
[01:17:01] Speaker B: It is so good. It's so scary. It's so, like, my brand of scary, too. Like, there's everything in it. I was like, did you make this for me?
[01:17:13] Speaker A: Love that.
[01:17:16] Speaker B: And then I also.
When that just. Also. Just came out is the new Nat Cassidy. It's called when the Wolf Comes Home.
[01:17:24] Speaker A: Okay. I haven't read any of his, so he's really good.
[01:17:29] Speaker B: Nestlings was the first one I read of his. And it's Jewish horror. Like, gargoyle horror.
[01:17:38] Speaker A: Oh. Like a. Like a golem kind of situation.
[01:17:41] Speaker B: But like. But, like, vampire.
[01:17:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:17:44] Speaker B: And it's. Yeah. Like, set in a hotel. Real weird. Real weird vibes. But also it's about, like, parenthood and, like, how some people just don't bond with their kid. And maybe that's okay, you know?
[01:18:00] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:18:01] Speaker B: Parenthood is tough, you know?
[01:18:02] Speaker A: Right.
[01:18:03] Speaker B: But so this one, when the Wolf Comes Home, on its face, it looks like it's just a werewolf book. So that's kind of like. I went in being like, okay, it's a werewolf book. Oh, my God. Nope.
[01:18:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:18:16] Speaker B: So much more than that. And I. I really don't want to give too. Too much away, because there is a joy in discovery in this book. But I will say that there is. There is a kid, and there's a young woman who is suddenly in charge of this kid when he, like, turns up outside of her apartment, and he's basically, like, fleeing from his abusive father. And she's like, okay, I'll take care of you. And they go on the run, and the kid has some powers.
[01:18:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:18:53] Speaker B: And it is unbelievably good. This book is, like, so absurdist and amazing.
[01:19:01] Speaker A: Nice. Okay.
[01:19:02] Speaker B: Scary, but, like, fully tapping into, like, the fears of a child.
[01:19:08] Speaker A: And it's excellent.
And what was it called again?
[01:19:11] Speaker B: It's called when the Wolf Comes Home.
[01:19:13] Speaker A: When the Wolf Comes Home. Beautiful.
[01:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it is so, so good.
And then I wanted to shout out a couple.
I. I can't come on here and not talk about Victorian Psycho.
[01:19:27] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Which I just saw, like casting news about yesterday. I'm so excited.
[01:19:34] Speaker B: I listen. There was this weird phenomenon at Gibson's in like December where my.
My rep for the publisher, Norton, handed me a like, bound manuscript. Like, no cover, like eight and a half by 11, massive, nice white pages. Just like here.
This is the closest thing I have to horror on my list. You need it.
And I was like, okay, sure, sure, Kelsey.
And I started reading it and my first thought was, oh, no, this is like a historical fiction. I don't know.
[01:20:20] Speaker A: I've been tricked.
[01:20:21] Speaker B: I don't know if I could do this. And then I got like three more sentences in and I was like, oh, oh, this is going to be a time.
So Victorian Psycho was kind of billed as like American Psycho meets Wuthering Heights. Sure you are.
It is told by Ms. Winifred Naughty, who is a governess to just the worst rich family, right?
Horrible kids, horrible parents, and she's a psychopath. Beautiful and one of.
Basically, I read this book, I fell in love with it, I handed it to one of my co workers and I said, I need you to read this because I need to know if is as funny as I think it is.
Because I cackled my way through it.
[01:21:18] Speaker A: Amazing.
[01:21:19] Speaker B: But I might just be crazy.
[01:21:21] Speaker A: Sure, that's always a possibility.
[01:21:23] Speaker B: And. And thus began the sisterhood of the traveling book.
[01:21:27] Speaker A: Because I love when that happens.
[01:21:29] Speaker B: Single staff member at Gibson's has read this. Now that's the best one of my favorite reviews because I made everyone write a staff pick review for it.
And one of the my favorite reviews was by Reagan. And the first line of her review was, Ms. Winifred Naughty has 30, 33 teeth and most of them are hers.
[01:21:51] Speaker A: That's good. I like that.
[01:21:54] Speaker B: I love her. She's crazy.
She's psychotic. And there it opens like the first chapter ends with like, basically flash forward to like, yeah. And then the Massacre at Christmas.
And you're like, okay. And then you're like, counting down to.
[01:22:11] Speaker A: Christmas, I gotta pick this one up.
I'm sure the hold at the library is like a million years, but I gotta put in for that probably.
[01:22:17] Speaker B: But it is worth it. It's so good. It's so short. It's the teeniest, most adorable little book.
[01:22:23] Speaker A: So much.
[01:22:24] Speaker B: I probably have it next to me I have like nine copies.
[01:22:26] Speaker A: Do you have those, like, tea lights, the purple lights on there? What. What's. What makes your. Oh, nice. Excellent.
[01:22:32] Speaker B: I have little purple twinkle lights all over my book.
So that's Victorian Psycho. It's by Virginia Fato. It is just. It's just a.
I haven't met anyone who didn't like, love it or if they didn't love it, it was because they like. Like, because I don't think Laura. Laura loved it, but I think it was like, went into it wrong. You know what I mean?
[01:22:56] Speaker A: Like, went into an expecting expectations were in the wrong place. Yeah, yeah, totally.
[01:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, you have to go into it being like, this is simply a story of a crazy woman who's about to do a whole lot of murder.
[01:23:09] Speaker A: Nice.
[01:23:10] Speaker B: And she's gonna have so much fun doing it. No one. I'm on board her job more than.
I love her so much.
It is so fun.
And then, let's see. I want to get some. I want to get some diversity in here, so I want to scroll for a second.
[01:23:29] Speaker A: Nice. And just for the record, I will put all of these in the description as well so that if you missed a title, you can.
You can look them on up there. Just like I do with the movies every week. If you miss what we said it was. It's always. It's always listed there for you to come back to there.
[01:23:47] Speaker B: Which is so helpful because, my God, I know that you guys have talked about the reformatory a couple of times on here, but given the everything of the world and like the burning of the plantation and all that, I just wanted. I do want to shout out to Nanarive due and reformatory. I know, I know it's come up, but I do just want to like. No, really read that one.
[01:24:13] Speaker A: No, seriously, read it.
[01:24:15] Speaker B: Really read it.
[01:24:16] Speaker A: You're wondering why people are cheering things like this, you know, to not redo the reformatory.
[01:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I also.
There's a book, I think it's.
Yeah. Korean horror.
I have a couple.
One is the Eyes are the Best Part by Monica Kim.
[01:24:37] Speaker A: Oh, what a title.
[01:24:39] Speaker B: Oh, oh, what a book.
It's. It's a serial killer origin story.
[01:24:47] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:24:47] Speaker B: About a girl who's just so sick to death of racist, misogynistic men.
[01:24:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:24:55] Speaker B: And she develops a taste for their eyeballs. Nice.
And I love her.
[01:25:01] Speaker A: I love her so much. From the good for her literary universe.
[01:25:06] Speaker B: It is such a good for her book. It is such a good for her book.
And then I actually. I just read one, so it's not even. I haven't even written a stack review for it yet. It's pretty fresh.
But it's called Strange Pictures, and it's by Ukeda, who I believe is like, an online personality. Oh, and is one of those. Like, no one knows who he actually is.
[01:25:34] Speaker A: Like, he wears a mask, and it's.
[01:25:36] Speaker B: Like, very, you know, a little bit. Chuck Tingle.
[01:25:39] Speaker A: I was about to say Chuck Tingle, but maybe not pounded in the butt by the economy or whatever.
[01:25:46] Speaker B: Less erotica.
But this. This book, I think it's.
Oh, gosh, I don't want to guess I should look it up. Is it.
I'm gonna be like, oh, I think it's Korean horror. I don't. I don't know. I should look it up. And not.
[01:26:01] Speaker A: The name sounds Japanese Ish.
[01:26:03] Speaker B: But I think it's Japanese horror.
It is translated from the Japanese.
[01:26:08] Speaker A: Okay, nice. Okay.
[01:26:09] Speaker B: Japanese horror. And it's.
It's so interesting because it's set up up as a. A little series of short stories.
[01:26:19] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:26:20] Speaker B: And each one is about a strange picture or a series of strange pictures.
[01:26:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:26:26] Speaker B: Literally, just, like, drawings and things. Right.
[01:26:29] Speaker A: And that's the most New Hampshire thing you've ever said.
Drawings. She says drawings.
[01:26:38] Speaker B: Drawings.
And I thought I, like, read the first story, and I was like, ah, man, I want more from that story. Like, I don't.
[01:26:51] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:26:51] Speaker B: I was, like, bummed that the next story started, and then I realized that they're all connected.
[01:26:56] Speaker A: I love a connected short story.
I have a hard time with short stories that, like, aren't connected, because I think I do. I always want, like, I want it to go on or, like, it never feels complete for me. But if you give me ones like Goblin and stuff like that that are connected, that I'm, like, on board or even, like, Revenge by Yokoagawa. Like, you know, it's like they all kind of. You know, it doesn't necessarily form a single story, but they all kind of circle back in.
[01:27:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. And this absolutely has, like, those vibes and strange pictures.
Very, very spooky. Very, like, weird and unsettling in that way of like. Like you're slowly piecing together this mystery, and it's getting more and more sinister as the pieces fit together.
I like this a lot.
[01:27:46] Speaker A: Excellent. I'm on board for that, too. That sounds right up my alley.
[01:27:50] Speaker B: Oh, and then I finally read a book that a lot of people read, I think, last year or even. Yeah. I think it came out in 2024. And I just never. I, like, kept starting the audiobook and then zoning out and then being like, I have lost all context and just start over. And so like, I kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off.
I finally sat down and I was like, I'm going to read this book. And I did, and it was great. And it's called Someone youe Can Build a Nest In.
[01:28:20] Speaker A: Oh, by.
[01:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:28:23] Speaker A: All right.
[01:28:24] Speaker B: By John Wiswell or Wiswell.
And it is really great and gross and lovely.
[01:28:35] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:28:35] Speaker B: It's. It's like a. It's like a really weird love story between like a creature and a person.
[01:28:44] Speaker A: Those are. Those are all the rage right now, right? I think we've talked about that before.
[01:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah. But what's really. What I love about this is that this creature can like, she will. She will like, like, you know, eat. Eat something and like absorb everything in it to like create her body. Right. So she'll like, she'll like, I don't know, say she like takes down a horse or something. She'll then be able to like use the bones to like create a different arm or like. So she can like look however she wants as long as she's like healthy and like has been fed, like, has eaten. She can. So she can have this human exterior, but that if she like, you know, gets too tired or weak or like hasn't eaten long enough, like her body starts to kind of like eat itself and she starts to kind of fall apart and she falls in love with this woman and it.
The. There's like she lives, you know, on the outside outskirts in the woods of this village that has been hunting her for years.
[01:29:58] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:29:59] Speaker B: They've been hunting this monster, but they don't know what it looks like.
[01:30:02] Speaker A: They think.
[01:30:03] Speaker B: They think it's like this worm thing. They don't know that it can change its shape. So she'll go into town and like buy.
[01:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:30:10] Speaker B: And like they don't know that it's her.
It's great. It's so well written and just. It scratches that itch of like. I just want something weird.
[01:30:21] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, totally weird.
[01:30:24] Speaker B: Like, like really well written.
[01:30:25] Speaker A: Sometimes you got weird. Yeah.
[01:30:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So that, I mean, what a delight.
What a delight.
[01:30:34] Speaker A: This horror that reminds me. I did. I read one that is worth wrecking, I think from 2024 as well. One of those things where it's like I actually jump because you know, you read a lot of the up to date things, but it always takes me a little bit longer because of, you know, A, finding out about it and B, the library wait for them most of the time. But I just listened to We Used to Live Here.
Have you.
Yeah, it's a very sort of creepy story about a family who, you know, it's a queer couple that moves into a house and you know, they've. They, of course, you know, got a great deal on this place or whatever, but it comes with some baggage. And one day a family shows up who claims to have lived there before and wants to come in and see the house. You know, just reflect on the. On the memories of having lived there. And while there the daughter runs and hides the things she apparently does from time to time, but which ends up sort of trapping this poor woman in the house with this family.
And then things get real fucking weird from there.
And yeah, I really, really liked We Used to Live Here. I think that's. That's one of my favorites of the. Of the year so far that I've read.
[01:32:02] Speaker B: Amazing.
[01:32:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Goes through a lot of. A lot of different themes and stuff like that will also being like very creepy and weird and you're just constantly wondering like what the. Is happening here.
[01:32:12] Speaker B: Ah, I love it.
[01:32:13] Speaker A: I love like a. It's like kind of a sort of slow home invasion in that way. Right. Like being invaded without even realizing it. You've let them in and now you've been home invaded. What do you do with that?
[01:32:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep, good stuff. It's funny you mentioned that I'm always like constantly reading like the brand new things and so let's talk about some that aren't out yet.
[01:32:36] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah. Give us a picture. What do we got coming?
Yes.
[01:32:40] Speaker B: Because, you know, one of the perks of the job is that the publishers send me the books way before they actually exist.
[01:32:47] Speaker A: Right.
[01:32:49] Speaker B: So I just like last night at like midnight basically finished Clay McLeod, Chapman's next book, which is a YA horror, which I love for him. He's branching out. It's called Shiny Happy People.
[01:33:08] Speaker A: Nice. This is so funny because we said, I don't know if you watched it, but we were talking about this on.
On the Fan Cave how with Grady Hendrix, Kristen was like, he's such a good writer, but I just wish he'd write something like, you know, a little bit less. A little less. Yeah.
A little less adult, you know, a Fear street version or whatever. So it's funny that Claim a Cloud, Chaplin is doing, Chapman is doing that.
[01:33:33] Speaker B: Clay is doing it.
And it's very much like Invasion of the Body Snatchers meets, I don't know, Talk to Me meets Smile. It's very.
There's like a new party drug makes its way into this suburban town and bad, bad things happen.
And the teenagers who take the drug, it's like they, they change and maybe they change for the better.
[01:34:13] Speaker A: They're, you know, like a disturbing behavior sort of situation.
Yeah.
[01:34:18] Speaker B: And our main character, Kira, God bless her, she's got so much trauma, this poor girl.
[01:34:25] Speaker A: And as characters in Flame of Cloud Chapman books tend to. Really.
[01:34:30] Speaker B: Yeah, she's just trying to. She's just trying to get through her day and she's watching all of her friends and peers and family members succumb to this thing and she's trying to fight it and she's like, it might all come down to her.
[01:34:46] Speaker A: Beautiful.
Yeah, that definitely gets my disturbing behavior spidey sense tingling and I love that very.
[01:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. I think you'll get a kick out of it. I think you'll like it a lot. It's definitely for like the, the like older end of ya.
[01:35:01] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. Just because, I mean, if we're talking about party drugs.
[01:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I, you know, don't, don't maybe don't give this one to your like 12 or 13 year old. Like maybe give it to your 16 year old.
But I, I loved it a lot. And I actually was on the phone with Clay earlier today because he was like, you're the first person I, I have talked to about this book other than like my editors. So please tell me your thoughts.
[01:35:31] Speaker A: Amazing.
[01:35:32] Speaker B: It was very sweet. I love it.
[01:35:33] Speaker A: Great. Looking forward to that. I still have to finish his last one, but yeah.
[01:35:37] Speaker B: Oh my God.
[01:35:37] Speaker A: Forward to that.
[01:35:38] Speaker B: Oh, that book.
[01:35:39] Speaker A: Who.
I think I mentioned last time you were here that the. Just the issue with that one was the fact that like it's the paper version that you gave to me and I've become so terrible at reading hard copies of books, so I, you know, just gotta get like an audio version.
[01:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and what's tragic about that one is I think it's an Audible exclusive.
I did not realize I was. So I went to look it up because I know one of the not know, but like I recognized one of the names of one of the narrators and I was like, oh my God, I didn't know that was one of the books this person worked on. And I went to look it up and Libro FM was like, you can't have it.
[01:36:18] Speaker A: And I was like, have that. You.
[01:36:19] Speaker B: I can't have it. And then I went to the Libby app and they were like.
And I was like, what's happening? And then I went to audible and I was like, oh, you far. Sucks.
[01:36:31] Speaker A: I hate it.
[01:36:31] Speaker B: Hate that.
[01:36:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:36:33] Speaker B: Hate that.
But it. I wonder. It might be on Spotify sometimes. Spotify has.
[01:36:39] Speaker A: I don't have that either.
[01:36:40] Speaker B: I don't know.
[01:36:41] Speaker A: But it was.
[01:36:43] Speaker B: It was a huge bummer, especially because I.
Based on who the narrators are, I'm sure that it's a phenomenal audiobook, but alas.
But yeah, Wake up and open your eyes is real, real good and real, real intense and real, real relevant.
[01:37:01] Speaker A: Yes, agreed.
[01:37:04] Speaker B: But another one that is coming out later this year is Play Nice by Rachel Harrison.
[01:37:11] Speaker A: Nice.
[01:37:11] Speaker B: I will. I will read anything she writes.
To the ends of the earth and back.
And this one is.
It's like a. A twist on the haunted house trope because the house is actually possessed.
[01:37:26] Speaker A: Nice.
[01:37:26] Speaker B: And we've got a character dealing with family drama as her mom has died. But her mom was also a raging, like, narcissist and kind of put her through hell.
And so she's, like, not that sad about it.
[01:37:46] Speaker A: Sure.
And, like, the Jeanette McCurdy approach.
[01:37:50] Speaker B: Yep. And her family's like, like, come on, man. Like, you gotta. You gotta, like, I don't know, chill out a little bit.
And they're like, we're just gonna, I don't know, sell the house or whatever. And it's got a little bit of the, like, how to sell a haunted house. Like, all right, yeah, go in and, like, whatever. Clean it out. And she discovers that maybe some of the things that she thought her mom was, like, delusional about or crazy, like, may not have. May not have been her mom.
It is.
I. I, like, I have to read it again before it comes out because I want it to be fresh when it comes out, but it's not till September because I read this so early again. I was, like, the first person nice to read it, but so it's not, like, super, super fresh in my mind, but, like, the vibes were so good.
[01:38:44] Speaker A: What was it called again?
[01:38:45] Speaker B: It's called Play nice.
[01:38:47] Speaker A: Play nice. Rachel Harrison.
[01:38:49] Speaker B: Rachel Harrison. She can do no wrong.
And then there's one I gotta see is this one. When does this one come out? I got one for the freaks.
[01:39:01] Speaker A: Excellent.
[01:39:04] Speaker B: Because, you know, listen, we got some of this. I. I loved this book.
There's a new Sarah Gailey coming out. And of course, it's not going to tell me when it's coming out. September. Okay.
[01:39:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:39:20] Speaker B: Another September book.
It's called Spread me.
[01:39:24] Speaker A: Spread Me.
Oh, you are not kidding.
All right, Corey, This.
[01:39:34] Speaker B: This book is.
It's like the thing but erotica okay with the thing?
[01:39:46] Speaker A: Sure, why not?
[01:39:49] Speaker B: So this is. This is.
Believe it or not, this is not the first horror novel I've read where the main character has a kink about, like, viruses or parasites.
[01:40:02] Speaker A: Oh, all right.
[01:40:06] Speaker B: This is like the second or third I've read. I don't know what's happening.
[01:40:10] Speaker A: Interesting.
[01:40:12] Speaker B: It's a thing, I guess.
Listen, I'm not gonna.
[01:40:15] Speaker A: What the kids are into these days, you know, what are you gonna do?
[01:40:19] Speaker B: What are you gonna do? But I.
I loved this book because it's like.
So it's this scientist, she's at a research facility, like, out in the middle of the desert.
And her and her team, like, come across this weird dog looking thing.
And they. They bring it inside and it's like, clearly dead. And they're like, we're gonna run some experiments on it. And, like, see, like, why. Why does this thing have, like six legs? Like, what's happening here?
And chaos ensues and suddenly they have to quarantine because some of them got like a face full of, I don't know, spores. I don't. I don't remember how it, like, never good. Never good. Right? And the main character realizes that whatever this thing is, whatever this, like, virus is, it can talk to her, like in her brain.
[01:41:29] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[01:41:30] Speaker B: And she, like, has a thing about viruses and she doesn't know why and. But she has this, like. She wants to be infected by a virus, but the virus.
[01:41:45] Speaker A: Good news.
[01:41:46] Speaker B: Oh, you wanna me.
And so it's like. It's like trying it. So it's this whole thing. It's a very short story. It's a very, like, probably 200 pages or less.
And it's this whole, like, one by one, the team members are getting.
One by one, the team members are getting, like destroyed by this thing.
Until, like, it's. It's clearly leading towards, like, you're gonna be the last one. And then we can live happily ever after. And she's like, that's.
You're killing my friend.
[01:42:24] Speaker A: Listen, I like you, but what I want.
[01:42:28] Speaker B: But it's like. It's like really fun. It's like erotica, but, like, I don't know, like scary.
I don't know. Sarah Gailey does such a good job with this weird little book.
[01:42:45] Speaker A: Strange balance.
[01:42:46] Speaker B: It's a weird balance. And somehow they just like walk that line and just like nail it. And I just. Perfect. I had a really fun time reading it.
[01:42:54] Speaker A: I was like, sounds like something Mark would like.
[01:42:58] Speaker B: I think Mark would love it.
[01:43:00] Speaker A: Squid adjacent.
[01:43:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Mark also texts me every time he's reading one of the books that I gave him. So cute.
I have given him too many books.
[01:43:13] Speaker A: No, it's good for him. It's good for him. It is.
[01:43:17] Speaker B: It's good.
Yeah. I'm sure there's so many others.
[01:43:21] Speaker A: Well, we'll have. You don't have to get it all.
Yeah, well, but Mark will have strep again or whatever, Covid or you know, things like that. And you can give us more. But this is a wonderful list. Like I said, they will be.
[01:43:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:43:37] Speaker A: On the description so that you can dive in yourself to these with.
Yeah. It's always great to have nice horror recommendations. You know, it's my favorite thing to do.
It's a beautiful thing. And of course you can find more of those on the Lay down podcast where all the podcasts are found. You can find that Gibson's co Gibsons bookstore dot com. Ryan, you can go on the story graph. And it's Ryan Wonderland, right? Yep. Yep.
Same on the. The Tickety tackity.
[01:44:10] Speaker B: I think so. Yeah.
[01:44:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So you know many ways to get more wrecks.
[01:44:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:44:17] Speaker A: All over the place. You weren't kidding. So thank you again, Ryan, for filling in on such short notice and bring in the wreck and listening to my. My Sordid tale.
[01:44:28] Speaker B: Oh, I love it. And people, join our book club. Come with us.
[01:44:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. Jackofallgraves.com Book Club we are reading Such.
[01:44:37] Speaker B: A Pretty Smile by Christy Demeaster.
[01:44:40] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[01:44:40] Speaker B: Also makes horror candles, which are dope.
[01:44:45] Speaker A: Can vouch. Delightful stuff. So pick up a copy of that, join us.
Is it this Saturday?
[01:44:51] Speaker B: I think it's this Saturday.
[01:44:52] Speaker A: It's this Saturday. Yes. This coming Saturday. Yeah. I'm like, yes, let's do that again this Saturday. We all better get a copy of the book and get together and read it and talk about it. So dear friends at home, of course you have one thing that you should do, Ryan. Tell them what it is.
[01:45:09] Speaker B: You gotta stay spooky.
[01:45:11] Speaker A: You gotta.
![Ep. 226: the carmel-by-the-sea artists' cult [w/ Ryan Clark]](https://episodes.castos.com/5f48161b9c2639-52745663/images/2042770/c1a-298q-pk4m6154i2g-ahf0op.png)
