Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Now, for the benefit of our listeners, I will just. I'll recap your last sentence before we hit record, right? Okay. Corrigan friends just said to me, quote, you're gonna learn today.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: I did say that. I. That was what I said before hitting record.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: And let me tell you something else, right? I know that I'm gonna learn today. And I'll tell you something else. I know that I have learned for the last four years, right? Because immediately before sitting down with you this evening, I was sat in front of who Wants to Be a Millionaire? Right?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Classic.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: And let me fucking tell you this. Let me fucking share this with you.
One of the questions which, by the way, the contestant whiffed on. Didn't know it.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Ooh.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: But I fucking knew it. And as I read this question, listener, if this ain't your first rodeo with us here on Jack of All Graves, you're probably gonna know it, too.
Which large artwork was stolen in 1934 and later replaced by a copy that remains in position today? Was it, A, the Ghent Altarpiece? Was it B, the School of Athens, C, the Biotapestry, or D, the Night Watch? Any fool knows the thrice blessed know that it is, of course, the Ghent Altarpiece. She used.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: It sure is.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: She used her phone. A friend.
Ooh, yeah. Who? He. He. He was like. Just as the minute was up and the 30 seconds or whatever, and he was about to cut off. I think it was the gen. And he was cut off. She walked away with a paltry sum of money.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Girls are fucking Tory as fuck, right?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Oh, how do you know this?
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Oh, come on.
When Clarkson said to her, what do you want the money for?
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Right?
[00:01:54] Speaker A: What are you gonna use the money for? Right?
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: She's. We do. We need a new barn. She's a fucking farmer who wants the fucking money for barn restoration. Get.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Fuck, love, I was about to say, so. I've talked about this with people here.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: I.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: Maybe even when you were here, but I. You know, I obviously auditioned for Jeopardy. Right before lockdown, right?
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: And so we did, like, mock games, and when you got up there, they were like, so we know that when you win the money, what you're really going to do with it is pay your student loans.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: However, if everyone said this, it would be boring and it would be depressing.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: An indictment on our society, if you could say that.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: So they said, just, like, make some up. So I said, what would yours have been? You know, I said that it was going to be a. That I wanted chickens and that I was going to spend it on a chicken named Pants. That was.
I said I was going to do with it.
You want it to be something stupid, right? Like something that just makes people go, what? Okay? And they. That's what they're looking for.
Give a little personality. But I think I would have said, yeah. So I thought maybe she's not a farmer. Maybe she.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Oh, she. Yeah, she's a farmer. Clarkson's a farmer as well. And by farmer I mean, you know, they, they use. Or Clarkson at least has openly said that he's used owning a farm just as a fucking tax dodge.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I think we have slightly different relationships with the farming profession. Not that it's great here either. It's also highly exploitative and terrible in this country as well, but maybe just slightly different.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: There's been a lot of angry farmers this week because there was. The new Labour government delivered their first budget, which I think it introduced. It kind of made inheritance tax on farming property handed down through generations, whereas it was exempt from inheritance tax before, whereas now it isn't. And farmers are like, oh.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: I deserve an exemption for reasons. Yeah, salt of the earth.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Massively asset. Wealthy families must be allowed to hand us down in perpetuity for it to.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe it is more like American farming than I'm giving it credit for. But Mark, we've got more cultural exchange to do. So let's not get bogged down in the details here Because, Mark, first of all, I just want to know what is voting day like in the uk? What do you do? What do you take with you? Can everybody do it? What are the requirements? How do you register? Tell me what voting is like over there.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Oh, fuck, I love it. Right, I'm gonna say this right now. I fucking love a general election. Jesus Christ, it's like fucking Christmas Day for me. I love it. Right? I go to the polling station before work. All you need is id, photo id, which you didn't until a couple of years back. The Tories introduced that.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll talk about that.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah, Tories introduced that as a way of, you know, thinning out eligibility. But you take your photo ID and you fucking whistle and poodle yourself along to your local polling station, Right?
[00:05:17] Speaker B: How far is your polling station from you?
[00:05:18] Speaker A: Mine? Oh, God, about half a kilometre down the street.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Okay, so like a quick like 10 minute walk.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Oh, if that. Polling stations are set up locally in generally in like school halls, community centers, you know, scout huts.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Just what are the hours like?
[00:05:37] Speaker A: All goddamn day. I think they open at like 6, 6:30 in the morning, maybe 7, and they run until 10pm so that, you know, you can vote before work, you can vote after work, you can work around childcare.
There's generally.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Do you have absentee ballots? Can you vote from home?
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah, you can vote by post, sure. It takes a little bit more admin, of course, but you can vote remotely. You can do a proxy vote, I believe you can set up somebody to vote on your behalf and it's generally, you know, the atmosphere is convivial. It's generally a kind of a community, in my experience, at least. You know, little chat, chit chat with the fucking community outside, small talk, culturally. Since Twitter, it's become a thing to share. If you're taking your dog, you know what I mean? If you're taking your dog with you to vote, share a picture of your dog at a polling station. That's a big thing in the uk.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: You don't get stickers.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: You don't get stickers.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: So you gotta bring your dog, bring your dog.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Or you can, you know, take a little selfie outside, hashtag, I voted. You can't take photos in the booth, obviously, but you get your little stubby pencil on a string in the booth, put your ex in the box, pop your little chitty in the little slot in the little box.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Are they all, are they all manual? You use pencils for them?
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Or do some places have digital?
[00:06:53] Speaker A: Nope. It is the law, you know, just. Just the way that elections work. You've got the ballots are all counted by hand on paper.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: And how do you register?
[00:07:03] Speaker A: How do you register?
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Are you automatically, like when you're 18, are you automatically registered? Do you have to go through any processes?
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Uh, no. If you're on the electoral roll, how.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: Do you get on that?
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Simply by being 18 and having a national insurance number and living legally and paying tax.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: So you don't have to do anything. You're just you. You come of age and you could walk in the next day.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: And vote.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Because. Because my memory isn't great. I can't remember if I.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: It's been a minute.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm 45, I'm an old man now.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: And my life will soon be over, but I can't remember if I had to register. You do have to register to vote, certainly.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Okay.
You just don't remember how you do that.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: No, and I don't remember doing it. But I know you have to register to vote. Yes, but yeah, you know, you get a polling card sent to your home, just advising you where your election, your polling station is, and off you go and you have a fun time and it's great.
And then again, if it's a general election, if it's a national kind of general election, at 10 o'clock, sit your ass down in front of the TV with drinks and snacks. Stay up as long as you can, watch your results roll in. There's always a kind of a informal kind of friendly bit of competition in the UK to see which constituency can be the first to return a result. So the national news will have, you know, local color pieces from polling stations where, you know, you've got some portly fucking local representative with a box of fucking ballots running into a taxi just, you know, just to try and get themselves to be the first in the country to return a result. And then in dribs and drabs throughout the evening, results will come in and, you know, you'll get whoever it is on the BBC or Sky or whoever, and a giant CG map of the UK which slowly turns red or blue over the course of the evening. It's just a fucking great bunch of lads. I love it.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: What is. What's not a general election?
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Okay, so your general election is the national election for which party is in control of the government. Yes.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: But then you'll have local elections, you'll have regional elections for council councillors, you know.
Yeah, yeah, basically local or national elections.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: And local elections, are they always separate or are they sometimes on the same ballot?
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, they're sometimes on the same ballot. You'll vote for your local councillor, you know, you'll vote for your vote for.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: If their thing is up at the same time as a general election, they'll be on the same ballot.
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yes, but generally, and again, I don't know specifics about how often local elections run, I'm not sure.
But, you know, you'll have whoever, your local kind of prospective councillors, your local Tory counselor, your local Labour councillor, Lib Dem, Greens, you know, for the weeks preceding a local election, you'll get a glossy leaflet through your fucking letterbox, vote for Steve Edwards, he's your local Green candidate.
Or if they can be asked if, you know, if you're in an area where, for example, the Tories don't think they're going to get much abuse, they'll knock on the door and go, hello, I'm Steve, I'm your name, you know. Yeah. It's just fucking amazing fun. It's probably one of the most fun Things as a human that you can do.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: I don't know that everyone gets that pumped about it. My dad certainly did when I was growing up, and he would always take me with them to go in the booth. And at the time, you know, it was like you pulled levers when you were voting for things. It was very satisfying. It was kind of sad when I grew up. And that was not how it worked anymore. It was legitimately levers that you pulled in the voting booth when I was a kid.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: I can't even visualize that. What, like a.
Like a machine?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it was like a big machine and you pulled levers on it. I assumed that it, like. Yeah, I assumed it was probably like poking holes in something or whatever. I don't know what the mechanism was that was happening, but I think it was poking holes in your ballot or whatever when you pulled the lever. And it was. Yeah, it was fun.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Like, I punched it.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: We don't use that anymore. And it's a bit sad. Yeah, I think it was something along those lines.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Literally pulling the levers of democracy. Fucking. Oh, I love that. I love that. Bring it back.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: Well, that's about as fun as things are gonna get, as I tell you. Uh.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: I mean, I think it's clear why I've led you here. Mark Lewis. It's decision 2024 time here in America. That's right. After what seems. Yes, after it seems like millennia of campaign ads on TV and flyers in the mailbox and increasingly unhinged texts in our phone spam inboxes, this Tuesday, we will finally maybe kind of know who the next President of the United States is.
And as we all know, the vast majority of our votes arguably barely count, because what really matters is the swing states.
We'll get into it, but just out the gate. Do you have any concept of what that means?
[00:12:02] Speaker A: So what is fascinating, and I've got BBC News on right in front of me here, and, you know, I'm seeing words like deadlock, and I'm seeing words, you know, phrases like neck and neck, too close to call, nail biter, down to the wire. And I gotta tell you, it has given me the biggest erection. I am fucking tumescent over this shit. I fucking love it.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: So that's not really. That's not really an answer to. Do you know what a swing state is?
Do you know what a swing state is? I'm hard.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Let me speculate, then.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Is it a state where, hey knows how this is gonna go? It could go either way. And it's Gonna be a dis. It's gonna be a decision maker. A state that can swing it one way or another.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: How's that? How'd I do?
[00:12:59] Speaker B: That's exactly it. Now, there's a reason why those exist, because obviously, in terms of numbers, that shouldn't be a thing. Right. If we were all voting, it should only matter the number of people who vote for one candidate.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Well, fucking hell. I haven't even thought of it like that.
Yeah.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Shit.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: Hang on.
Oh, God. If it's fair and right. Okay, rewind.
Is it that.
Is it is it states. It's whoever wins the most states, not individual votes. Have I got that right?
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Right, let me move forward and we're gonna get. We're gonna get into this, all right? I'm gonna explain this process to you.
But all that to say, you know, you and I, we've been friends for a long time.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Long time.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: And saved in a folder somewhere. I have a video message from you years ago. Years ago.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Why the fuck are you saving my video messages from years ago? Stop it.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Because it was funny.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: Oh, okay, carry on.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: I'm gonna explain what it is.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Don't keep the shit ones. Just keep the hilarious ones.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Just the funny ones. Yes. I have, like, maybe two to three videos of you over our. Okay, 13, 14 years of friendship.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Are you saying I've been funny, like, four times?
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Listen, you walked into this, so this is. You're gonna have to exclude me from whatever this is.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Just keep it. Keep it.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Anyways, we were.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Bring it out at my funeral.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: I have a video from you asking me what the fuck Super Tuesday is.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: So let the record show, dear Joe Ag Fam, that long before Jack of all Graves even began, we were basically already doing this podcast in each other's Instagram and Snapchat DMs.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: And we'd be doing it anyway.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: And we'd be doing it anyway. But also, it shows that the American voting system has been baffling Mark and probably other Brits for many moons.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Listen, at the dinner table earlier on, Owen, you know they often do on a Sunday. Dad, what's Joag about this week? That's how my kids sound.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: So cute.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: I said, you're gonna try and explain American politics to me. And Owen's like, go on then, Daddy. How does it work? And I had a go and it was fucking gibberish. Just.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: You didn't say, let me wait until she explains it to me. You were like, let me just.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: No, I outlined for him. That's exactly why this episode Is necessary.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Nice. Here's an object lesson and why we're.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: Talking about this, I don't fucking know. I think I said House of Representatives at one point. What the fuck does that mean?
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Look at you guys.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: I don't know what it means, though.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Excellent. Well, I will. I will tell you.
But, yeah, it baffles Americans as well. It's convoluted. The whole election season feels interminable. It's chaotic, toxic, inefficient, and in many ways discriminatory, which is.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: But that feels. But that feels like your politics in. You know, holistically, it feels unwieldy and like a fucking behemoth, a giant fucking machine that can't move.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah, in many ways.
And there's a lot of reasons for that. And I think this will sort of help you to see some elements of why that is. Okay. I mean, obviously, the big reason for that is that we are the size. We are a continent, more or less trying to run like your island does. There's going to be a lot more problems than smaller places would have, but we'll get into a little bit of how things.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Break it down, man. You gotta break it down.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: America is easily like five or six countries, right?
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, at minimum. Yeah.
So we're gonna go all the way back to the Constitution, the document that provides the basis for all of the laws in the United States, which is often a problem because it was written in the 1780s, and as you can imagine.
No, but it was written in the 1780s, and as you can imagine, those guys could not possibly have anticipated every single legal scenario. John Hancock in our Skynet. Oh, my God. I think you're thinking about the Declaration of Independence. This was put together by a group called the Constitutional Convention. It was not one guy who put this together.
Moving on.
So they couldn't have anticipated 2024 when they were writing this in the 1780s. And as such, there are those who look at it as sort of, I don't think. Document.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: They couldn't have anticipated 2024 if they'd written it in the 1980s.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, exactly. That's a very good way of putting it.
But if you there. So there are people who look at it as like a living document. You look at the intent behind it, but recognize that it's not comprehensive and that a lot of shit has changed. You simply cannot take everything as it's written because, you know, it could not account for the world that we live in today.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Other folks, who we generally call constitutional originalists.
Interpret the Constitution exactly as it was written.
This is very dumb. Also impossible, because everything is open to interpretation. Take the second Amendment, incredible, for example, which people tend to only quote as far as the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Leaving out the bit about that being for the purpose of a well regulated militia. Yes, well regulated.
And second amendment people think you should not regulate guns.
So, you know, originalists aren't super. They don't stick to the text way they say they do. Or take the 14th Amendment, known as the equal protection clause, which says that all Americans are entitled to equal protection under the law. So for example, when marriage equality was on the ballot a decade or so ago, anti gay marriage folks would say, well, we do have equal protection under the law because all of us have the right to be in a straight marriage.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: I see.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Gays are not asking for equal protection, they're asking for extra protection. They are perfectly welcome to marry a person of the opposite sex, therefore equal protection under the law. Obviously that's ridiculous, but this is what I'm talking about with like constitutional originalism and literalism. Like basically saying like, nope, it says this thing. Yes. And we have to interpret it that way. Even if society has completely moved to a different place than it was in.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: 1780, which is a fantastic bit of context. And it's like banging your head against a fucking solid brick wall, isn't it? It's incredible, right? Did you say 1780s?
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: If you were to fucking reach through time and grab someone from the 1780s and drop them in the middle of Times Square like I was a couple of weeks back, right.
They'd be like, fuck off.
Nothing makes sense. There's no contextual fucking connective tissue between the 1780s and 2024.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: You know what I mean?
It may as well be another planet.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: It's what that movie Kate and Leopold is about, only that's just like the 90s or whatever. Yeah, It's a completely different world on every possible level from what it was at that point.
So I mention all of this because voting is a constitutional right, but from the outset a poorly defined one with a lot of room for interpretation and a lot of very bad and racist interpretation.
Initially, the Constitution didn't have much to say about who could vote. That was left up to the states. And as you can imagine, for most states that came down to white male.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: Property owners, I think it was doppelganger, actually, that did a fantastic job of just forwarding the truth that it isn't just our democracy, but even Just so many of the structures that we work in and around have been kind of, all right, updated around the edges and retooled and, you know, modernized a little bit. But were designed around slavery and slave owning and the trade people.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, very much so.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: You know, like corporate stuff like HR and payroll and fucking things like that. All right, fair enough. They've been rebuilt, but at the core is. Oh, slavery.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. And this is no different, as we are about to discuss. So, like I said, didn't say much about who could vote. Left up to the states, white male property owners are the ones who end up benefiting from that. And as you were alluding to in the 18th century, when it was written, enslaved people were also property.
The constitutional framers had set out a bicameral congressional system, meaning you've got two houses. Bicameral, yes. It means two houses. Yeah. Camel.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: That's not a term I've heard before.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: I feel like this is the only way that people use it. I think it is. It's like Latin, you know, And I think people only use it when they're referring to the US Government.
Although I guess you have a bicameral government too, don't you? You've got a.
Like a House of.
House of.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: House of Commons.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah, House of Commons. Yeah. I think that's a bicameral system as well.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: Again, I won't pretend to know the specifics about what the remit is of the both of them, the House of Lords and the House of Commons.
But, yeah, it's two houses, both of which contribute to the laws and the reform of the laws in the uk.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Right. And yours? I was looking a little bit into UK voting history as well, and there are definitely some parallels between them, especially when certain groups of people got the right to vote and things like that. But obviously one of the central differences is that, you know, up until, like, the 18th century, it was that, like, it was about royalty, right. Like the king was the only one who had any say, or the queen and people weren't.
It was, you know, those people who were able to vote. And that gradually expanded to eventually, you know, encompass the rest of you, which obviously we never had a king. So we started at, you know, regular people could vote, but a specific subset of them. So we have the Senate and the House of Representatives. Those are our two houses.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: And every single state has the same amount of support.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: I'm going to be repeating this as we go along because that's how I understand. There's the Senate, the Senate where all the senators go.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: And how many senators are there? Is there a senator for each state?
[00:24:30] Speaker B: There's two senators for each state. No matter what size the state is, there are two of them.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Each state has two senators. And why is that?
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Well, this was.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Why not one?
[00:24:42] Speaker B: That's like a whole. Yeah, I have to get through this. So I'm not going to explain all of that right now. But every state has two of them.
And then obviously some states are much bigger than other ones. And so that's balanced out by the House of Representatives, where that is broken up by population. Right. So there's a lot more representatives, Congress people, you know, who represent people in that House than there are in the Senate.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: And the difference between a senator and a congressman or congressperson, One's in the.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: House of Representatives and one's in.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: One's in Congress. Right.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Things have to pass through both of those to pass. Right. Like, if there's a law, it has to go through both of those houses and be approved and signed off on by the president or vetoed by the president or whatever in order for it to become law.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: So I'm a senator, Right. I'm the senator of Arkansas. Right. Or fucking wherever. And my state has a big problem with rats. Right.
So my.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: This is not going to come to the Senate. This is for, like, federal, like, things. Not.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Hear me out.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Okay, go ahead.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Hear me out.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: My state, they. They. They want a fundamental change in the law that's. We want to be able to just kill rats by stamping on them. Right. We want to make it legal to tread on rats. So they'll lobby me as their senator to try and get that law passed through Congress and the House of Representatives.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: No. So states have their own courts, and there's courts in, like, municipalities. Like, there's district courts.
There's like a state supreme court. So anything like that. And before that even gets there, like, towns have their own, like, councils and things like that. Like, you've seen me work with the Montclair Township Council.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah, sure.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: So that would be like a township council.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: I see.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: Issue. Right. You would go to your town and say, right now we have a law in the books that says you're not allowed to stomp on rats. But our rat problem is so out of control that we think that it is worth overriding that for us to be able to eradicate this problem. And the council will say, you know, yes or no. And if the council says no, but you still think that's a thing, then you Might take it to, like, a district court, like a local court first, and then you go higher as the problem persists. But something like that is never going to. You're never going to see that in Congress. Right.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: They're dealing with briefly as an example. Then what kind of thing would I write to my congressman or my senator.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: About what say, like, Israel and Palestine, should we send money for weapons to Israel?
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: So more Senator, Your Congress.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. America's global position on matters.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Right. Or. Yeah. Things. Or abortion, national importance.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Right, okay.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Things like that. Yeah. So it's not gonna be largely the stuff that's going on in your town. It's going to be stuff that affects the whole country. We have much smaller bodies of government to deal with local shit.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm currently watching Parks and Rec with Owen, so. Yes, I get it.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. That's 100% it. We all have a Parks and Rec situation in each of our towns that all of that stuff will go through. And the Senate and the House of Representatives deal with much bigger issues.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: Parks and Rec actually does a lot of good work in terms of educating, you know, non Americans about how localized government works in the UK and Americans.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Too, for that matter, because Americans tend to be pretty ignorant of, like, their. The small town stuff, you know, and that's why people get so invested in, like, the presidential elections, because the rest of the time, they're not paying attention. So, like, they. This is the only thing that matters for a lot of people, while they don't realize that most of the things that actually affect them and that affects who ends up running for president 20 years from now is the stuff that's happening in Pawnee, Indiana and shit like that.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: So, yeah, great example of how this works.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: But. So representatives are based on population.
And as the Constitutional Convention tried to figure out this representation, Southerners were like, well, we've got slaves, which are technically people, so we should get more representation based on that. And the Northerners were like, but they have zero political capital and they don't own property, so why should they be represented when we're trying to dole out how many representatives people get? Right.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Right. Whoa.
Southerners had slaves. Ah, of course. This is the Civil War, wasn't it? This was what it was all about. We were bing, ding, ding, ding.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: Look at this. You're bringing it back. You're bringing back previous joag knowledge.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Yep. We're gonna. We're gonna break away from the union because we want to be able to have slaves. Thanks all right, Precisely. I'm with you.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yes. And as you know from my tour, the north did have slaves, but it was abolished much earlier than it was abolished in the South.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: So Joag is kind of like a longer version of what they were doing in Demolition man, isn't it?
I'm kind of learning, but over a far longer period of time.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Yeah. I think what they did in Demolition man was just education, but just fast.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Right.
It's almost like a longer version of that, isn't it?
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Very interesting. Very interesting.
So basically, Northerners were like, this is a ploy to give you more power than your population should have. Right. Which it was.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: And again, just to recap, because I have to vocalize, suddenly Southerners were like, look, there's more people here because we've got slaves, and on paper, they're human beings. So we would obviously. Obviously, it follows that we're going to need more representation because more people.
[00:31:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Which would then artificially weigh the balance of power in their favor.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Exactly. You're nailing it. Got it in one.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: So the Constitutional Convention compromised, and enslaved people would count as three fifths of a person in terms of representation.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Oh, God, I'm. Ew.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's horrifying. Right?
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Listen. Not great. Not a word of a lie. That actually made my stomach lurch. That was vile.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: It should. Yeah, that's the proper reaction to that. And as the Root put it, quote, this meant that Virginia, with about 690,000 people and Pennsylvania, with about 430,000 people, had the same number of votes in Congress as Delaware with a population under 60,000, and Rhode island, with a population under 65,000.
So this basically just sort of made it. So there was a shift in the balance of power. Not necessarily that all the Southern states had more power than the north, but they had more power than proportionately for the number of people that they had.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: And who passed this, the Constitutional Convention.
[00:32:25] Speaker B: So it's in the Constitution of the United States of America.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: It's in the Constitution.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: It.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: What? It. It was written into constitutional law that a slave, a Black slave, is 3/5.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Of a human being, not of a human being, but three fifths of a legal representation.
Yeah.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: Yes.
So from the jump, we're looking at a document that had nothing to say about whether or not black people could vote, meaning that in most states, they couldn't. Some they could, but in most, they couldn't. But that ensured Southerners could use their bodies to up their representation in the government.
Off to a great start here now The Constitution also set up this little thing called the Electoral college.
[00:33:11] Speaker A: Now that is one of those terms that I don't have a single fucking iota of a clue what it means.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: You have more of one than you think you do.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: If you can clear this up to me.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yes. So this system means that the President isn't picked by popular vote. It's not that the person who gets the most votes total in the whole United States becomes the President. Instead, there are these people called electors who represent the party in each state equal in number to the congressional delegation for a state.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Yep, I'm gone.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Which I'm going to elaborate. Okay, don't worry about it. Just try to stay with me because I am going to explain this to you. And you see here, once again, it's an issue because of that whole three fifths compromise baked into the Constitution was this stipulation that meant property owning white men who owned lots of people had disproportionate power in electing a president than everyone else.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:05] Speaker B: And it's by this, it's like this, by design. Again, I am going to explain further, but James Madison thought that we should have direct elections, meaning we vote and we each get one vote for the President directly.
But he fought it because the south would be at a disadvantage population wise. Using a system of electors was more advantageous precisely because it gave the south an outsized vote by including the enslaved.
So a slate of electors is chosen. These are actual people. Right. Like say it's me, I'm an elector. Right. And how this is done varies by state, but they're picked by the state parties. So I go to the Democratic National Convention. Right. Or not Democratic National Convention, but I go to the New Jersey State Democratic Convention.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: And they're like, These are the 12 people that we want to be electors representing our party. Okay.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: In New Jersey.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: In New Jersey. And the Republicans are going to have their own convention and they're going to say These are the 12 people that we want to be the electors representing our party. Okay.
[00:35:17] Speaker A: So will there be 12 from each party? Right, right.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: So 12 electors from each party in New Jersey is 12 just an example.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: Figure or are they 12 per state?
[00:35:26] Speaker B: I think I'm pretty sure New Jersey.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: Is 12, but there will be more or less depending on the size of the state, the population of the state.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Exactly right. So Wyoming, for example, gets four. Right. Because that's how many. You know, it's got a smaller population than New Jersey does. So they're going to pick out their electors. Right. And like I said, this isn't the same in every state, but let's say we're in New Jersey. So they pick out their electors, each of the parties, and that elector pledges to vote for a candidate, essentially their party's candidate. So I am a Democratic elector for New Jersey, and I pledge to vote for Kamala Harris. I'm not legally obligated to do that.
I could technically go rogue.
And people tried to encourage that in the last election so that Trump wouldn't be handed a presidency that he lost, but they don't usually do that. Electors pledge to vote for someone, and that is who they vote for.
So when you go and you cast a vote, right, when you write on your ballot, I vote for Kamala Harris.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: Pull your lever.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: You pull your lever. You have not voted for Kamala Harris. You have voted for me. You have voted for your elector, and you have voted for me because I have pledged that in December I am going to go and I am going to vote for Kamala Harris.
You see what I'm saying there? So you do not vote for the president.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: You're not directly supporting that individual with your vote. What you are doing is you are pledging almost you are. You are voting for someone who has pledged to vote for that person in the future.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Right?
[00:37:22] Speaker A: Fucking what?
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
And I think most Americans would not know. Like, we understand there's an electoral College and that somehow, you know, there's some sort of representation here, but I don't think people understand that. Some states in America do actually say the name of the electors on their ballot. But if you ask the average American, they probably would not realize that they are not voting for president. They are voting for an elector.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Right.
This has just changed the game. I had no clue. This is completely just upended things. So the electoral college is the group of people made up of the electors from each state.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:38:05] Speaker A: That is known as the Electoral College.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: Yes. Correct. And those are picked by their state's party.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Fucking hell, man. Wow. So again, that's wild, right? Gotta say it out loud.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Mm. Do it.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: I'm fucking, you know, Dwight from fucking wherever. Right. And it's voting day. Rooting tootin. Voting day. Right. So I'm gonna shoot my six guns in the air. Yeehaw. And I'm gonna sure pool my ass along to the voting station. Yes.
[00:38:35] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: And I'm a big Trump guy.
He's gonna fix the economy, and he's gonna make it, you know, legal for me to own people again. And I pull his lever. I Put my fucking tick in his box. That is not a direct endorsement of Donald Trump. What that is is that goes into, like a pot of votes which the elector then takes to the real election. Is that right?
[00:39:11] Speaker B: Exactly that. And here's the thing about that, right? In most states, I think there's only like two or three where it isn't like this. In most states, this is winner takes all. So if, say, Donald Trump gets 40% of the vote in New Jersey and Kamala gets 60%, he doesn't get 40% of the elector votes. Right? He gets zero elector votes. Votes. And Kamala gets 100% of the elector votes. So it's not representative. Even on that level. You either win or you lose a state.
Aside from, like I said, I think there's two or three states where they do do it representatively, but it is winner takes all. So you either win the state or you. You either win all of the party's electors or you lose all of the party's electors. You do not get part of them.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: I. I'm not for a second holding up British democracy as a kind of a. This is better than yours kind of. I'm really not. Let's take British democracy out of the fucking equation here completely. But what you've just described is fucking mental. Mental. It's absolutely fucking sane that something so convoluted is a system which is so fucking important and has such weight to it and ramifications to it. Yes, that it's this fucking hell.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: And I'm going to come back to this. But I'm about to explain further why this is not a mistake that we have such a dumb fuck system here. Okay?
It is intentionally this much of a dumb fuck system.
So after the Civil War, the enslaved folks were freed. So obviously that made the whole three fifths compromise obsolete. Right? There are no enslaved people. You don't own anybody. You don't get extra representation. These are just regular people.
Black men were initially able to vote and even hold office, which as a result they did in great numbers. Right? There were more black people than white people in the South. So all of a sudden you've got this new voting bloc of all these freed people. And the south was like, oh, oh, no, no, that cannot be allowed to happen.
So the Southern states moved real quick to put laws into place to prevent that from happening, criminalizing pretty much every aspect of black life, barring blacks from holding office and restricting their right to vote. Like I said, the Constitution doesn't give a whole lot of rules about who can and cannot vote. So this is up to the states and they immediately move to be like, absolutely not.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: It's also worth noting that while black folks had gained some voting rights at this point, and many of them were taken away, but they did gain some that didn't extend to other racialized groups like Asians or Native Americans, nor did it extend to women, regardless of race.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: When did women get the vote? When did women get the vote?
[00:42:09] Speaker B: 1920. Wow.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: In your country, I believe it was 1927.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: You know what? The first one was the first to have women's suffrage war here or there in. In the world, at least of countries.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right, right. Globally. Globally. Ooh, let's see.
Is it guessable? Is it? Is it? Does it?
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's guessable.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
I would say somewhere Scandinavian.
[00:42:41] Speaker B: No, it was New Zealand. Well, fuck, I saw a mural for it when I was there. It was like the late 1800s, women were given the right to vote.
[00:42:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:42:51] Speaker B: Anyways, so the 15th amendment in 1870 gave all citizens the right to vote, regardless of race. But this didn't deter individual states from creating laws that still kept black people disenfranchised.
This included things like literacy and civic tests or poll taxes. And if you had spent your entire life enslaved, it was highly unlikely that you were going to have the money or the education to overcome those barriers when it came to vote voting, of course.
And even when they did, often they'd just be like, failed on a technicality. Like, someone should be like, actually, that's the wrong answer. Even if it was the right answer.
[00:43:24] Speaker A: Tell me something or confirm a suspicion.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: Was there any kind of national level welfare or education or onboarding, I guess, program for ex slaves?
[00:43:42] Speaker B: No, not so much. America has had an incredible educational system forever. That is one thing that we've got going for us is education here is fantastic and always has been.
But I mean, obviously the Republicans are trying to change that. But, you know, as an institution, education from the very early days of this country has been great and often more inclusive than you would think. So from very early days, a lot of times, you know, women were educated, people of color were educated. Sometimes enslaved peoples were even educated, especially in the North.
But once blacks were integrated into society before there started to be more of these, you know, rules like Jim Crow and stuff like that, they were integrated into the schools. Right. So.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: It would be hard for someone if you were, you know, 40 and you had been enslaved to ever pick up on the education.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: But somebody of School age would transition into.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: If you were school age, you would go to school.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: Okay, cool. Okay, fine.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: It may be a segregated school. Right. But it would, you would go to school just like everybody else.
[00:44:53] Speaker A: Right, Fine.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: But yeah, so these tests, like I said, they might fail them on a technicality or the tests would be made to be unpassable. There was just no way a white American would never pass them.
And this is on top of.
Sorry.
Oh, this is on top of discriminatory laws that like I said, made everything black people did illegal. So for example, vagrancy and loitering laws.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:45:23] Speaker B: Those were created to make it illegal just to be like walking around aimlessly, you know, the things that a black person might be doing, they weren't going to enforce that on a white person. It was basically like, hey, what's this black person doing out and about? About you're being a vagrant. Yeah. Employment laws that made it illegal for a black person not to have a job.
This made it very easy to exploit black people. Cause white folks weren't hiring them in high paying gigs. And so they were basically making them all but enslaved again. And black people had no other choice because they could be arrested for not having a job. Yeah, just take what's available.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: And again, I'm treading water a little bit here because I am so far removed from this. But you know, when was it you talked about the kind of the holdover in modern life that shows up in things like the low rates of swimming ability in black people? Right, that's that, innit?
[00:46:20] Speaker B: It's that, yes, 100%. Yeah. You're completely grasping what's happening here. It's all part of the same thing, the same designs.
And so, and you may or may not know this, but According to the 13th amendment of the Constitution, slavery in America to this day is legal if you're a prisoner.
So getting arrested is an easy way to be re enslaved with thousands of black men at that time dying, being rented out to build our railroad system, among other things. Our railroads in America were built on literal piles of black bodies that they have uncovered at this point. That many of them were guys who were thrown in jail for stealing 10 cents and things like that. And they were. You could re enslave them thanks to the 13th amendment and they would just die.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: Which is still in place. Which is still in place, still in.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: Place to this day. Which is why prisoners do a lot of labor in the United States because it's free, unpaid or paid very, very.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: Small wages in like prison. Bucks.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: Mm. Right? Yeah. It's fully legal to enslave black people. And that's one of the reasons it's very hard to end the prison industrial complex here is because people are making a ton of money on enslaved people of color, essentially.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: Mark, you're learning today.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: I told you.
But. So all of this meant that even when black men were technically granted the vote, it was extremely difficult to actually exercise that vote while they'd been politically convenient. When they were giving white men an extra 3/5 of a person's worth of representation in Congress and in the Electoral College, they were a problem when they became full people with the full right to vote for their own interests.
And this is, like I said, something that in America, right wing people still find to be an issue. And we've implemented all kinds of things to keep black people from voting. At least one such thing that you talked about before having been adopted in your neck of the woods. But I will get to that. Id.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Photo id.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: In 1920, the 19th amendment made it so that women could vote too. But again, this doesn't include Native Americans or Asians who are not recognized as full American citizens.
For Native Americans, this doesn't change until 1924, which is crazy that they can't be US citizens, the land that was stolen from them until 1924.
And for Asian immigrants. Hold on to your butt. It wasn't until 1952 that they could legally become naturalized American citizens and participate in voting.
My parents were alive when Asians were able to become naturalized US Citizens.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: Pretty sure that was the year my dad was born.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, my mom was born in 52.
So we've talked about, like I said, doing a history of American racism on here, but it's so racially specific, it'll take several episodes and talking about anti Asian racism will blow your mind.
But just take that much when it comes to voting.
But anyway, by the end of the 1920s, pretty much everyone born here can legally vote, regardless of race or gender.
But states are still allowed to impose poll taxes until 1964, when the 24th Amendment prohibits taxes on voting. And to contextualize this, again, my mother was 12. That means when you could. When they stopped using poll taxes to disenfranchise black people.
The Voting Rights act of 1960.
[00:50:04] Speaker A: Just clarify for me what your.
What you mean by poll tax, because the. There was a poll tax here for a while under the Tories, under Thatcher, which was hideously unpopular and led to riots in some towns. But I think. I think they Mean different things.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: Oh, really?
[00:50:21] Speaker A: In respective countries. What do you mean by poll tax?
[00:50:24] Speaker B: Just means in order to vote, you have to pay a tax.
[00:50:27] Speaker A: I see, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:50:29] Speaker B: What did it mean for you?
[00:50:32] Speaker A: Bear with me. I'm just kind of looking it up. It was. It was local taxation introduced by Thatcher. Of course. Each taxpayer was taxed the same fix sum with the precise amount being set by each local authority. Yeah, it's. It's more like a council tax. It's more like a.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: Yes, it seems kind of like your TV thing or whatever, like in order to.
[00:50:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:50:57] Speaker B: Right.
Yeah. I think this was more. I think this was directly a tax on voting because otherwise, like, if everyone had to pay it one way or another, it wouldn't prevent anyone, would it?
[00:51:10] Speaker A: So it's like a fee. It's like a registration fee. Almost a buy into democracy.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. Yeah. Because if everyone was paying it, it wouldn't really matter. Yeah, you would just have to pay it. Different things entirely. Yeah.
Still terrible either way, though. Nobody should have to pay to vote.
[00:51:27] Speaker A: No.
[00:51:29] Speaker B: But a different thing entirely.
I think it's just. It's implemented differently.
[00:51:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:51:36] Speaker B: I don't know what the. Like, you know. I know, like, you can be arrested if you don't pay your, like, TV thing. Right.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Not your t. Not your TV license so much. But what is known of your council tax, which is money goes directly to your local authority to pay for things like upkeep of roads and fucking rubbish collection and local kind of amenities.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: And what happens if you don't pay it?
[00:52:02] Speaker A: That is. Yeah, that is enforceable by law. You will get arrested for paying council tax. Yes. And it varies depending on, you know, it's depending on the size of your property, depending on the area you live.
[00:52:13] Speaker B: Council tax varies and I'm assuming. Yeah. If you didn't pay your poll tax.
[00:52:19] Speaker A: Yep, same.
[00:52:19] Speaker B: And then you voted anyway, that would probably be voter fraud or whatever. If you didn't vote, it probably wouldn't matter. Right, so it's. Yeah, this is.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: This was 1987 and I. My memories of that are of, you know, huge scenes of civil unrest in the uk.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
I mean, that's. That pretty much defines the Thatcher era, doesn't it?
[00:52:45] Speaker A: Oh, it does, yeah, of course, of course.
[00:52:49] Speaker B: So the Voting Rights act of 1965 made it illegal to pass laws or policies denying any citizen the right to vote based on immutable characteristics.
[00:52:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:58] Speaker B: And over the following decades, that was expanded to include people like language minorities. Seeing as the US does not have an Official language. You can't require that people speak English to vote.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:09] Speaker B: And so you have to make it more accessible to people who don't speak English, people with disabilities. Their access to polls became protected by the Voting Rights act as it was expanded. And in 1993, it was expanded to make having access to the vote more readily available and by having people be able to register to vote at the dmv. That's how a lot of folks register to vote. Now you go to get your license and there's just a little checkbox at the bottom. Do you want to register to vote today? Check. And now you're registered.
[00:53:39] Speaker A: Well, that seems like a stop gap solution which never got fixed.
[00:53:44] Speaker B: What do you mean?
[00:53:45] Speaker A: Well, why the fuck would I register to vote at the same place I get my driving license?
[00:53:49] Speaker B: Because you're already there. Right. It's easy. It's supposed to make it easier for you. Right. Like there are other ways you can register online now.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: Okay, fine, fine, fine, fine.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: You know, like, it's not the only way to register. It's just it was added that now at any DMV in the United States.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: Right, Right.
[00:54:05] Speaker B: You can register to vote.
[00:54:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I was under the impression I was miss under the Mishap Ranch.
[00:54:11] Speaker B: You were thinking it was the only.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: Way you could do it.
[00:54:13] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no. It just adds to the ways in which you can register to vote, making it very easy for people to do so. Especially before the Internet. Right.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: Like, got it.
[00:54:21] Speaker B: Now it's. You can do it anywhere, but at the time, it would have been a little harder to get somewhere and do it.
But poll taxes and literary literacy tests aren't the only ways that you can disenfranchise people. And particular, there are numerous strategies they use to keep marginalized folks from voting.
For one, they're simply poll hours. If you limit the hours during the day that people can vote, you can keep people who can't get off work to get to the polls from voting. Our polls are not like yours, where it's everybody 6:30am to 10:00pm or whatever, they can have their own hours. If they want that poll to, you know, run from 10am to 4pm, they can do that.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: Stop it. So at state. Stop it, Corey. So at state. At state level, I can decide the hours that my democracy runs between.
[00:55:16] Speaker B: Yeah. In municipality levels, you're. Yeah. You're putting up these.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Is there like a polling station? Is there like it has to be 8 hours or less?
[00:55:25] Speaker B: Not federally, No. I don't think so. So pretty sure that's completely up to them.
So if you limit the hours, like I said, people might not be able to get off work. Absentee ballots have grown in popularity.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: So what's stopped me then?
And who would, who would have the final say on this?
The hours that my.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: I think it depends. Yeah, everything is not across the board, the same in every state. So I think that would depend.
[00:55:53] Speaker A: It's a fucking mess.
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Yeah, what's this?
[00:55:55] Speaker A: Surely there's a mechanism in place to stop me going. Okay, so big election today, folks. You can vote between 115 and 145 and that's it.
[00:56:07] Speaker B: I mean, appearances, right? Yeah, more than anything.
[00:56:09] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:56:10] Speaker B: That's what stops you. But going on, just wait for it.
Because like I said, absentee ballots have grown in popularity, famously. Trump is among those who wanted to make them entirely illegal, knowing that a good chunk of the votes using voters using them would be voting against him.
But to what you were just saying, there's also poll locations. If you don't put a polling place close enough for people without cars or access to other forms of transportation to get there, they can't vote.
And sometimes people will show up to vote and find their normal polling place is just closed for seemingly no reason. Just can't vote there.
So there is nothing to stop you per se from being like, yeah, you just, you can't vote here anymore. You're going to have to go somewhere else. Okay, you can do that. You can close polling places similarly prohibitively lengthy lines. If you have an hour lunch break to go vote and have to stand in a two hour line, you're sol. So it's very easy to limit the ways in which people can vote simply by making the place and time untenable.
[00:57:10] Speaker A: Yep. The way that works over here, polls close at 10, but if you're already.
[00:57:15] Speaker B: If you're in line, stay in line.
[00:57:16] Speaker A: You know, you're fine, you shall have your say.
[00:57:19] Speaker B: Right. Which is great at 10, you know, but if you're on your lunch break, what are you gonna do? You gotta go back to work. We don't get time off or anything for that. So you have just that amount of time.
In many largely Southern states, felons can't vote even after they've served out their time.
And while we don't technically have those black codes, Jim Crow laws that made it so black folks could be arrested for things like not having a job, black, Hispanic and indigenous folks are still disproportionately arrested and given harsher sentences for crimes than their white counterparts who've done.
[00:57:54] Speaker A: The same thing as is the case over here, of course. Yep.
[00:57:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:57:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:57:59] Speaker B: Pretty much.
[00:58:01] Speaker A: The vagrancy thing, is that still on the books? Could a black Vlad be arrested for just chilling, hanging about?
[00:58:08] Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. It's a law that like vagrancy and loitering are laws that still exist. And a white person could get arrested for them, but they're not as likely to.
[00:58:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:58:18] Speaker B: Statistical as a black person is. Yeah. That's that they look more menacing. So you know you're gonna get them, not just some harmless white person sitting around. Yeah. These still 100% exist and are deployed pretty much in the same way that they were at that time.
By the way, just to the thing I just said, if anyone listening to this is ever in Philadelphia, I highly recommend visiting Eastern State Penitentiary, which was one of the worst prisons in America, but since shutting its doors, has reopened as a museum and now is dedicated to talking about the prison industrial complex and its outsized impact on marginalized people in the us. It's a very cool place to go. Eastern State Penitentiary. Go check it out.
But yeah, that's to say that making it so that people who have been convicted of felonies can't vote is a very easy way to keep the poor and minorities out of the voting booth.
And one of the most popular strategies, and I'm not even scratching the surface, there are more strategies than this. But one of the most popular is of course, voter ID laws.
These seem innocuous on the surface because like, yeah, we should all have IDs. Who doesn't have an ID, but that's not the case. And the people who are most likely not to have them are the poor, the disabled, the unhoused. It's not easy to get an id, despite what a lot of conservatives will tell you.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: The vibe was when the Tories introduced mandatory voter ID at polling stations. It was too, because obviously the youth vote is far more left leaning, is far more liberal.
[00:59:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:00:00] Speaker A: So kids are less likely to have photo id. Great. Let's make photo ID mandatory. So, you know, we make sure we shore up the gray old cunt vote, which is historically more.
[01:00:12] Speaker B: Right.
Yeah, youth is definitely like younger people, for sure. I think we get more young people have them here because we drive more than you guys do. But for sure, younger people are disenfranchised by this too. I have read that in some things. But let's talk about the complications of getting an id.
An ID requires you to be able to get to a DMV during Hours most people have to work. The DMV is known for its terrible hours.
It requires a fee, which, you know, for middle class folks like us may be annoying, but like it's fine ultimately. But it might be absolutely impossible for someone who's already struggling not to overdraft on groceries and rent.
It requires transportation to get there. I looked this up because I was curious. The closest DMV to me is a 17 minute drive and a 56 minute bus ride with multiple transfers away from me.
That means half hour minimum driving, just getting there and back. And make that two hours on the bus, round trip if you're able bodied enough to make three transfers and walk 10 minutes of that journey.
[01:01:18] Speaker A: If you have a photo ID, if.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: Well, this is to get a photo ID, right? This is to get a photo ID. That's the process we're going through right here. Right. So this is to get to the dmv.
So once you get there you need documents, birth certificates, Social Security cards, passports, green cards, all of that kind of stuff. And they won't accept just one form. You can't get a id, a license, driver's license or a state ID without multiple forms of identification, which you have to. I struggled to, in person, I struggled to get my passport due to lack of documents.
When I went to get it, you could. And this can happen to anyone, regardless of class. You could lose your shit in a house fire. Like many reasons there are that this could happen, but this particularly affects people in situations like having unstable home environments where they can't just go, like ask their parent or guardian for a copy or unhoused people whose belongings are regularly cleared from encampments and thrown away.
[01:02:21] Speaker A: So you're still not able to digitally submit the documents that you need for a driving license. You've got to rock up.
[01:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I love it. It also costs money to replace that stuff. Yeah, famously I lost all of our important documents when we moved from California to New Jersey. So I had to pay at least a couple hundred dollars to get a new Social Security card, a new birth certificate, a new passport, a new marriage certificate. And again, it was frustrating for me, but ultimately I could just whine and shell out, you know, go to the movies a few less time for a couple months and it's fine, it balances.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: But of course, if you decided you didn't want to do all that, no voting for you, no voting.
[01:02:59] Speaker B: Right.
And for other people, that would break them. And politicians know this, which is why they push for voter ID laws. It seems uncontroversial if you're a citizen, just get an id. Anyone complaining must be somehow trying to commit voter fraud.
[01:03:15] Speaker A: Sure.
[01:03:16] Speaker B: And they know their voters aren't, or their supporters aren't going to go well, wait, are there actually systemic barriers to certain segments of the population getting IDs?
And if they do think that, well, they probably think it's also fine because they don't want those people voting. Yeah, there might be systemic barriers to Spanish speaking, Latino immigrant, naturalized citizen, getting a license, but I want there to be barriers because I don't want that person to vote. Right. That's, that's how they think. It makes the whole thing work.
And on top of all this, what makes it so easy to do that is that in 2013, a key provision of the Voting Rights act of 1965 was deemed unconstitutional, essentially on a technicality. I'm not going to explain the whole thing, but this allowed various once again Southern states to implement a whole bunch of policies that were previously illegal because of the vra.
According to the Brennan center for justice, literally the same day as the Shelby County v. Holder ruling that did this, Texas announced that they were implementing the strictest voter ID law in the nation.
Between 600,000 and 800,000 registered voters in Texas at the time lacked photo ID, and over 300,000 of those were Latino.
Nearly half.
These aren't undocumented immigrants that they're all so scared of. These are registered American citizen voters that don't have IDs and therefore are not allowed to vote.
Other states have attempted to follow suit, although they didn't pass. Like Alabama, where 30% of voting age citizens live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID issuing office and where 11 predominantly black counties had licensing offices only open once or twice a week.
Or Mississippi, where 35% of the state's population lives more than 10 miles from the nearest issuing agency and 13 predominantly black counties lack any full time licensing offices.
In the decades since then, the results have been pretty horrifying. The voter turnout gap between black and white voters has grown substantially in states like Alabama and Georgia, doubling in Atlanta between 2012 and 2016 and increasing every year since, except for 2018 multiple. The gap between white people and black people voting has increased every single year, except for one since then. And it didn't. Like, you know, that's a fascinating data point.
[01:05:45] Speaker A: What happened in that year then.
[01:05:48] Speaker B: It just didn't increase. So it's the same amount of disenfranchisement. It just more people weren't disenfranchised that year just. It stayed the same.
[01:05:57] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:05:58] Speaker B: It wasn't suddenly a whole bunch of black voters. Yeah.
In multiple states, officials have convicted, conducted purges of the voter rolls, disproportionately purging voters with Latino last names on suspicions that they're actually non citizens.
There's a story about this I saw just yesterday, and it's not the first time it's happened. Thousands of people purged from the voter list, most of which with Latino last names, and already they found at least 100 were definitely done in error, like arbitrarily. Yeah. Just taking them off the list because they're like, these people might not be citizens, might not be citizens, might not be not. They aren't. They might not be.
And yeah, there it's deeply racist. Okay, so taking the fact that everything about our voting system has been put together since the Constitution itself to disenfranchise the poor people of color, indigenous folks, etcetera, let's return to that motherfucking Electoral College and why, when it comes to the President, it's all farce and none of this really matters.
The representation these days is insane on its face. Proportionately, as Harvard political scientist Gautam Mukunda points out, people in Wyoming have nearly four times the power of people in California, which is antithetical at the most basic level to what we say we stand for as a democracy.
The result of this stupid fucking system is that in the past 24 years, since 2000, Republicans have twice won the presidency without winning the popular vote.
And that could very well happen again.
[01:07:35] Speaker A: The. You defined the popular vote as, like, directly.
[01:07:41] Speaker B: So the number of people voted for.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: Proportionate.
[01:07:44] Speaker B: Not proportionate, but direct.
[01:07:46] Speaker A: Right.
[01:07:47] Speaker B: This number of people. So, like, in the last election, I believe Hillary Clinton got 7 million more votes than Donald Trump as.
[01:07:57] Speaker A: And she lost in terms of the country as a whole. 7 million more people.
[01:08:01] Speaker B: 7 million more people voted for Hillary.
[01:08:03] Speaker A: Clinton than they did Donald Trump yet.
[01:08:05] Speaker B: But he won because of the.
[01:08:10] Speaker A: I'm having a palpitation at this. This is.
[01:08:14] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. It's insane. It is like, that's not a small amount of people. That's not like, oh, you know, 100 people somewhere.
[01:08:22] Speaker A: Let me say that. Let me once again, just to check my own understanding of this before I go fucking telling my kids. Right.
In the last U.S. presidential election, which was Clinton v. Trump two elections ago.
[01:08:37] Speaker B: I apologize.
[01:08:38] Speaker A: Yes, of course. Two elections ago, 7 million more people voted for Clinton in the U.S. than they did Trump. Yet because of the college system, Trump won.
[01:08:50] Speaker B: Right.
[01:08:51] Speaker A: Fuck off.
[01:08:52] Speaker B: I know.
Right. Like how are we not in the streets? It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy that we accept this.
[01:09:02] Speaker A: Try that shit in France.
[01:09:05] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
So that could very well happen again because of this process and as such, only a few states really matter.
[01:09:17] Speaker A: So what is democracy then? What is your democracy? That's.
[01:09:20] Speaker B: Let me finish, let me finish talking about this first and then we can, we can philosophically debate this. Yeah, but so some states are pretty much always going to be consistently read or consistent. Consistently. Blue, red being Republicans and blue being Democrats. I know that's basically backwards for your country.
[01:09:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:37] Speaker B: My state, New Jersey is reliably blue.
California is reliably blue. Arkansas is reliably red. Right. Tennessee is reliably red. We can already basically count out those electoral votes they're promised.
There's not going to be a shake up there. We know what that's going to look like.
[01:09:56] Speaker A: Right, right. And again, just fill in the gaps for me because there are lots. Why is that the case?
[01:10:02] Speaker B: Because of the people who live there.
[01:10:04] Speaker A: Right.
[01:10:05] Speaker B: And all of that disenfranchisement that we've spent the last hour talking about. Right. So the people who can vote and who are not excluded because they don't have an idea.
[01:10:14] Speaker A: Give me those states again. Give me some of those locked in states again.
[01:10:17] Speaker B: I'm just about. Oh, the locked in ones. It's most of them except for seven states. Those are the ones, the swing states.
[01:10:23] Speaker A: So for most of the states, thanks to systemic disenfranchisement and you know, flat out fucking chicanery like removing people from electoral registration lists and just systemic barriers.
[01:10:44] Speaker B: Right.
[01:10:45] Speaker A: The vast majority of states, it's pointless even fucking reporting on them basically.
[01:10:52] Speaker B: Right.
And, and you see that like, you know, as like you see shifts in places and you have to realize like a lot of people will, will say really shitty things about the south like, you know, like, oh, we should just cut them off or you know, they vote against their own self interest, things like that. And a lot of the south because of slavery is black.
But they can't vote for various reasons. They're not voting against their self interest. They're being disenfranchised from voting.
So those places being reliably read, it's not because like, oh, everyone is a Republican there. It's because the Republicans are the ones who have access to the means to.
[01:11:33] Speaker A: Vote more than everyone else are greased culturally and socially to the point where those who are most likely to vote Republican are. It's made easy for them to do so.
[01:11:43] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. Whereas in the states that are more reliably blue, they usually have larger populations, bigger cities, and less restrictions on who gets to vote. For example, most northern states, aside from a few in the Midwest, as soon as you serve your term, if you have committed a felony, your voting rights are automatically restored. Right. So you don't disenfranchise that entire population. So take places like Florida, like you. You will never automatically get it back. You are always going to have to jump through hoops if ever you get that right back. Right. So places that are more reliably blue tend to have fewer barriers in the way of everybody voting than the plate than the other places do.
[01:12:33] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep.
[01:12:34] Speaker B: So who counts then in this election? Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania. And Wisconsin.
As you sort of said before, these states could seven states. These states could go either way and have enough electoral votes to tip the scales one way or another.
And as such, I can sit here and write in President D's nuts in New Jersey, and it will make not one single, solitary difference, because this is a blue state, and our 14. We have 14 electors in the state, not 12. All of them are going to be casting their votes for Kamala Harris. Doesn't matter what I write.
And so, as I explained to you before, even if it's split, even If Trump got 40%, she got 60, all 14 of our electors are going to vote for Kamala.
You have a question?
[01:13:32] Speaker A: No, I don't. I don't. I'm. I'm just. I'm making. I'm trying to make it make sense.
That's what I'm doing. I'm putting this all in a kind of a narrative, and I'm trying to make this work in my head.
[01:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:13:43] Speaker A: So now.
[01:13:44] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead.
[01:13:45] Speaker A: You've got 14 electors in New Jersey.
Yes.
[01:13:50] Speaker B: Mm.
[01:13:53] Speaker A: Just do me. Just recap for me the process by which those 14 electors, you know full well they're all going forward to vote for Kamala Harris. Why is that?
[01:14:03] Speaker B: So this state votes reliably blue.
[01:14:05] Speaker A: Fine. Fine, fine, fine, fine. Yeah. Okay.
[01:14:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And since it's a winner take all.
[01:14:10] Speaker A: State, you are not a swing state. New Jersey is not a swing state.
[01:14:12] Speaker B: Not a swing state. No. We are reliably a Democratic state. And since even if 49% of New Jersey were to vote for Trump and 51 for Kamala, it doesn't matter. Those Democratic electors have been elected by the state of New Jersey, and they are going to vote for Kamala, but that's it. It will never be that close in New Jersey. It is always going to be reliably leaning Democratic when it comes to the presidency, not necessarily for other offices, which is also, you know, everyone should always vote, even if you don't vote for the president, because the other stuff on the ballot matters more, like, more obviously to you than that does. But in terms of the president himself, unless you live in one of those seven states, you are not the deciding vote. You don't matter. You functionally don't vote for president. I mean, you don't vote for president. Literally. You vote for an elector, but you have very little say in that. And many people.
[01:15:13] Speaker A: Just to recap, there's nothing illegal about an elector pulling a sneaky, going rogue. And even though everybody who voted for that elector told that elector they wanted them to vote, you know, Democrat, there's nothing to stop them. They don't have to declare what they've done.
[01:15:34] Speaker B: I mean, you'll know, like, the vote is public. So when they vote, you would know, oh, that elector voted for Trump instead of Kamala.
[01:15:43] Speaker A: Has that happened ever?
[01:15:47] Speaker B: I don't know if it's ever happened or not. I want to say, like, it must have, but I've never heard of it.
[01:15:53] Speaker A: But why would it.
[01:15:54] Speaker B: So if it happens. Right. Yeah. Like, why would it. Because the thing is, like, there is a consequence for you. Not illegal, but, like, you'll never get that position again. You'll probably have a really hard time getting any political position if that's what you're trying to do. Although electors cannot be office holders, at least up until that time. But if you later wanted to do something and you were the elector who couldn't be trusted, it would not work out well for you.
[01:16:17] Speaker A: So electors have to be drawn from the general public.
[01:16:20] Speaker B: Do that.
Yeah.
[01:16:22] Speaker A: Right.
[01:16:22] Speaker B: They can. They can't be someone in office. No.
[01:16:25] Speaker A: Right.
[01:16:26] Speaker B: And they don't have to be Joe Schmo. They could. Like, you could. Oprah could be an elector if you wanted, but they. They can't.
[01:16:33] Speaker A: A civilian.
[01:16:35] Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
[01:16:36] Speaker A: And I.
Obviously, it is. Obviously. But it's illegal for an elector to receive kind of money or gifts from sides. Right, Right, right, right.
[01:16:52] Speaker B: Definitely.
[01:16:52] Speaker A: Just checking.
[01:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah. No, and there would just. There'd just be no reason to do that.
You know, even if one elector went rogue, most of the time, that's not gonna be the deciding thing.
[01:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:17:07] Speaker B: And you've got the balance of the other people.
[01:17:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:17:10] Speaker B: But electors do make it close. Right. Closer than it would be if you were using a popular vote. You're talking about the difference between, like, millions versus, like you need 270 electoral votes to win. And so, you know, a vote here and there can swing it as opposed to a million, seven million, whatever extra votes.
And many people have called for the abolition of this unhinged system, including Kamala's vice presidential candidate, Tim Walz.
It disproportionately favors Republicans, and thus they fight tooth and nail to make sure that it endures. Yes, and since our Supreme Court is constitutional originalists, it'd be kind of a lost cause to try to do anything about it at this particular moment in time.
There are plenty of, like, I read a few articles that were like, practical ways that we can change the electoral College, but it's very difficult at this moment.
For the time being, we are stuck with a voting system that is not only racist, anti indigenous, classist and ableist, it also makes zero sense and has the potential to hand a madman a second term whether the majority of Americans want him there or not.
[01:18:18] Speaker A: Earlier on this week, there was just a brief little piece on the news about how, you know, it's come to light that lots of kind of lots of institutions in the uk, more than you might think, like, for example, the railway network, post office, a lot of private companies like legal firms and so on in 2024, are still communicating through fax machines.
[01:18:49] Speaker B: Right.
Yeah.
[01:18:52] Speaker A: It's analogous, I feel, to this, that the machinery has been built on top of old and corrupt as fuck foundations.
[01:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Now just imagine also the fax was very racist.
[01:19:13] Speaker A: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may.
[01:19:15] Speaker B: Yes, please do.
[01:19:16] Speaker A: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene.
[01:19:20] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before.
[01:19:24] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex. Cannibal receive.
[01:19:27] Speaker B: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science.
[01:19:30] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking. I'm gonna leg it.
[01:19:37] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that, Mark?
[01:19:39] Speaker A: I think you feel great about it.
[01:19:43] Speaker B: Good. Feel it. Feel like you've learned.
[01:19:46] Speaker A: Oh, fuck. Yeah. Look, I.
I can now hear the term electoral college vote and not go.
[01:19:56] Speaker B: You'll do that just for a different reason.
[01:19:58] Speaker A: Well, yeah, yeah, I'm making that noise, but it's. It's because I get it and not because I don't.
[01:20:04] Speaker B: I like that.
So. So how's it going, Mark?
[01:20:09] Speaker A: Oh, listen, great again.
It's a similar reaction to reading that book a few months back.
And this is very much.
[01:20:24] Speaker B: Doppelganger is the book. He's.
[01:20:26] Speaker A: Doppelganger is the book. Of course. But it's the Joag mission, isn't it? I mean, when we set out to talk through how fucked everything is.
Mm, yeah. Okay.
It might be air quotes, fun to talk about the visceral and the gory and the immediate and the visual and the stuff that grabs your attention and the stuff that makes you go, what the shit? But underneath all that, the most fucked things about the world, it feels to me more and more are the systems that are built to keep it fucked, you know?
[01:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah, indeed. That's a good way of putting it.
[01:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah, the world is fucked, but it's fucked in favor of a very specific group of people. And it's been working real well for that specific group of people. So it's now the people who fucked it wanting to keep it fucked in perpetuity.
[01:21:31] Speaker B: Right.
[01:21:32] Speaker A: Even though. Even though it's leading rapidly, in real time, before our eyes, to the end of our species.
That isn't hyperbolic. That isn't hyperbole. That is factually accurate. It is leading to the end of the fucking world.
[01:21:48] Speaker B: Have you read the Sixth Extinction yet? I know I've recommended it to you at some point by Elizabeth Colbert.
[01:21:54] Speaker A: No, I haven't. I did get to. I did get through. The heat will kill you. That was fucking. Again, brilliant.
[01:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah, brilliant and gnarly.
[01:22:02] Speaker A: Yes. But I have not read the Sixth Extinction. No.
[01:22:05] Speaker B: Recommend it. But that, you know, really goes into how literal that is that we're talking about, you know, humans ending ourselves.
[01:22:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:22:15] Speaker B: And, yeah, the power is in the hands of a very small group of people that the system works well for, and they don't really care that a generation or two from now, everyone will be dying off, because they won't be there. So it's fine.
[01:22:28] Speaker A: I have come to think of it as the Great Filter. I have come to think of, you know, inequality being a foundational fucking principle of a species. And maybe we'll talk about this later on. I honestly, I can't see me get into my topic later. But.
[01:22:48] Speaker B: No, it's gonna be another one of those. Gonna become, like, on Jimmy Kimmel, he always says, like, apologies to Matt Damon, we ran out of time. I see this is going to be your topic.
[01:23:01] Speaker A: I see.
[01:23:03] Speaker B: For the rest of this podcast.
[01:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I've come to think of it as what is.
I'm a little stunned and a little speechless.
I've come to think of it as the one thing that we cannot and will not get past power imbalance. Power imbalance is the thing that is going to kill us. Right.
[01:23:29] Speaker B: Because there's. This is. It's. So I think when I think about things like this. Right. It's like there's more of us than them.
[01:23:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:23:36] Speaker B: And yet we can't get past that. They built the systems.
[01:23:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:23:42] Speaker B: And they have no investment in changing it. And I know that sounds conspiracy theorist. I keep using they. And them about this stuff. But like, I mean, the people who. Who I have just talked about.
[01:23:53] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not some kind of nebulous.
[01:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. It's. These are specific.
[01:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:23:59] Speaker B: People. Not a amorphous. Oh, they don't want you to know or whatever. We're talking about corporations and politicians.
[01:24:06] Speaker A: That's the difference between a conspiracy theory and the conspiracy. You actually have the fucking receipts.
[01:24:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not hidden from any of us. We can very clearly look at how these structures are formed and we know that most of us are not on board and yet we have no meaningful way to challenge this. And I saw someone talking about like, they. They were saying that they were like a sociologist or something of that nature who had studied and like interacted with like billionaires, like extremely rich people like that. And that one of the things about them was simply that they, like, they just lacked the ability to sort of conceptualize the world as full of people.
[01:24:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:24:57] Speaker B: Essentially. And we've talked about that with like Elon Musk. Right. And the idea that he sees everyone as NPCs, like, this is like billionaires kind of. That's the way they see things.
[01:25:08] Speaker A: Right. I can't remember which it was, but I overheard one of my kids using that term recently, like. And I fucking chewed them the fuck out.
They sure as shit know that that ain't cool.
[01:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:25:23] Speaker A: But I gotta tell you, I mean, I've. I've noticed even in the kind of. In the area that I work in and in other. In companies that I've kind of worked with and alongside past. A certain level of responsibility, maybe, or a quote, small p. Power, empathy dwindles. And I'm generalizing wildly. There are always outliers, and I'm not.
[01:25:52] Speaker B: Of course, but I think from a sociological perspective, I think that that is true. I think that there's plenty of research. I remember that there was a study looking at traffic in San Francisco that was just like this thing where researchers sat on a corner and they looked at the cars going. There was like a crosswalk and seeing who did and didn't stop. For pedestrians.
And the more expensive the car, the less likely people were to stop. And it's just simple things like that where you can see that becoming the main character and losing empathy and ability to understand that, like other people live lives like yours increases for people.
[01:26:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:26:39] Speaker B: And someone made a joke on Blue sky that I think is like, unfortunately very apt. Right. They said something like, you know, billionaires, once you reach the like being. And it doesn't even have to be billionaires, but you reach a point of wealth where any problem that happens to you, you can buy your way out of.
[01:26:58] Speaker A: Oh, listen.
[01:26:58] Speaker B: And many times. Well, go on, hold on, let me just finish this thought. But as a result of it, like, how do you feel?
[01:27:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:27:07] Speaker B: At that point when, like, there is no problem that money can't fix. And they said something like, you'd basically have to hunt people for sport to like feel any form of emotion because it's like there's just no stakes when you have that ability.
[01:27:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And when a. When a punishment is a fine, it's only a punishment if you can't afford the fine.
[01:27:29] Speaker B: Right. And even when you think about like just basic, like romantic interactions and things like that, like you can't trust that anyone loves you for you because you're super wealthy and you probably are an asshole too, so you wouldn't trust you. Things like that. Like, so people become like a strategic element of your life instead of.
[01:27:52] Speaker A: Beautifully put. It's. Yeah.
When the world is a fucking spreadsheet.
[01:27:58] Speaker B: Right.
[01:27:58] Speaker A: And it's made a lot of news over here the past couple of weeks again. And I hate giving the fucking cunt a time, but this fucking piece of skullduggery that Elon Musk is up to with awarding a million pounds a day to a voter in specific states.
[01:28:17] Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
Not only is that deeply illegal, Deeply.
[01:28:22] Speaker A: Illegal, but the only punishment for that for him would be a fine, which he can just walk off. So that's interference and fucking tampering, I guess, from a certain angle, which will have absolutely no. You know.
[01:28:40] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. There's no amount of money you could find him that would. That would make any difference to him.
[01:28:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:28:45] Speaker B: What's worse, I think is that something like that should like any. If I did it, it would be jail time, but that is not on the table.
[01:28:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:28:56] Speaker B: Like the punishment isn't a fine. It's. It's only that because it's Elon Musk and he doesn't have rules.
And that's. Yeah, that's kind of what it comes down to is that we can all sit here and watch and be like, yeah, there's no rules for them. And there's a proportion of the population that's going to say, well, let's let them have power, because I want to be that too. And I think that, you know, they're going to make it so that I can be that way.
And then there's a proportion of the population that says, like, clearly none of these people are for us.
[01:29:31] Speaker A: Right?
[01:29:32] Speaker B: Those are, you know, back in, back.
[01:29:34] Speaker A: In those early days four years ago and change, I.
A common bit of mine was that things are so. Things have failed so hard now and the consequence is now so visceral and so tangible, it's the end of us all.
That I, more than ever, more than I did back then, I'm convinced that the solution isn't peaceful anymore.
[01:30:10] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, I mean, I think we've long.
[01:30:12] Speaker A: Since passed that the solution is not peaceful. And this I'm. Oh, fuck, man. The solution isn't democratic either. It is because we know and it has been proved time and time again and it's going to happen on Tuesday and it happens all the fucking time in so many different places that power and the powerful only want to maintain and keep that power. So the systems under which that is allowed to continue have to go. And democracy, I'm afraid, is one of them. It has to fucking go. Given the choice, people won't make the right choice. So you have to take away the choice. I'm sorry. Choice is no longer a luxury that we can afford. Oh, God, that's horrible.
[01:31:01] Speaker B: Right? I mean, it's, it's. Yeah. And I don't know if it is, if that is true or not, but it certainly feels that way.
At minimum, it's not simply going to be something that we can sort of kumbaya our way out of by asking nicely enough and keeping on voting Democrat or labor or whatever the case may be. It's not. That's not going to work.
[01:31:29] Speaker A: What my head keeps going back.
[01:31:30] Speaker B: It has to be more forceful than that.
[01:31:32] Speaker A: What my mind keeps going back to is how nakedly and openly kind of fossil fuel companies, petrochemical companies, plastics companies, banking companies, banking companies especially, profiteered so much from disaster, right? Profiteer from pandemic. Profiteer from, you know, kind of war and government and spin and media are so fucking entrenched with corporation.
[01:32:12] Speaker B: Right.
[01:32:12] Speaker A: Money flows upwards and yet onus is placed on the individual at individual level. Get out and vote. Yeah, get out and vote.
Fucking, you know, Separate your recycling.
[01:32:27] Speaker B: I mean, this is like, what I was ranting about last week, that so many people do the, like, vote shaming thing, right? Like, oh, if you. A vote that's not for Kamala is a vote for Trump, or, you know, things like that, like, and people get so touchy if you criticize the candidate that they like. And all of this is. Is.
Is a part of that whole. That whole problem, you know, of this, like, very entrenched, like, way that we deal with things. That's just kind of like the power.
All these people want is to stay in power.
[01:33:00] Speaker A: That's it. That's it. And we.
[01:33:01] Speaker B: We help with that from. From the bottom by being like, well, as long as they're wearing the right color, then, you know, they're above my criticism or anything of that nature. Where.
[01:33:14] Speaker A: Go on. Sorry.
[01:33:16] Speaker B: Well, I was just saying nothing is. Nothing is accomplished that way. Right. And if you look, a lot of that is a rewriting of narratives. Like, if you look at the civil rights movement or whatever, we rewrote Martin Luther King into an unchallenging guy. Right. All he did was stand up there and march and, you know, talk about how, like, you know, eventually we will all just learn to love each other and things like that. When this was a guy who was, like, arrested all the time and the CIA was trying to ruin his life constantly and was a villain because he sided against capital and was constantly talking about the evils of capitalism. We don't learn about that in school or anything like that. Nothing was accomplished because, you know, we were peaceful and asked nicely enough. It was because of the threat of the infringement of communism, because communists were using it against us. It was because they were afraid of Black Panthers in the streets with guns. It was because they were afraid of both the international and domestic implications of not making changes.
And it was never simply sitting peacefully on a bus. That was just a piece of the puzzle. But we act like that's all there is.
[01:34:33] Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
Much in the same way, as, you know, Israel, Palestine is widely regarded now as having started on October 7th. Right.
[01:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Just ignore that this has been going on for 70 years and stick with this unquestioned narrative. You know, people get mad about you not voting or whatever the case may be, because they don't want to do any further work, which is what really needs to happen. It's not enough to just show up and vote. If you actually want change, there's going to be a lot harder stuff you have to do than this. And people want to believe that that's their moral duty. All they have to do is vote and they can wash their hands of it. And when other people don't follow that narrative, it's challenging for them.
[01:35:24] Speaker A: They don't want to hear something else that, that is a huge contributor to the what's the word Cluster.
While the systems have continued to propagate under, you know, on top of rancid foundations, something else that has been going on in parallel is that oh, certain things have got way better like health care, longevity, life expectancy.
And I've said this time and time again, sorry to keep, to repeat, apply this well worn furrow. But even though all of this fucking corrupt thread is holding everything together, if you were to ask, I'm generalizing. But if, but people, people are healthier and more comfortable generally. So change is all the more difficult, right?
[01:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah, if you're comfortable, it is harder to.
[01:36:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:36:24] Speaker B: You're easier to plake. It's just like, you know, the idea of being entertained. Right. As long as you've still got your TV shows, as long as you've got food on your table, as long as you have, you know, the things that make it so that you personally, individually can lead a nice life. Yes, it is much easier to make it so that you don't actively challenge.
[01:36:45] Speaker A: But as kind of general, kind of health care and sanitation and you know, the kind of the safety of the, of the western world at least population is fucking doubled just in my lifetime. Literally just in my lifetime. The fucking population. I've read a stupid ass fucking statistic recently which I'm paraphrase, but of all of the people that have ever lived, ever on planet Earth, a crazy percentage of them are alive today.
[01:37:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I have. I don't remember what the percentage is either, but I do remember I've read that before.
[01:37:25] Speaker A: Fuckingly huge proportion of all of the human beings in history live and breathe.
[01:37:30] Speaker B: Today are alive now.
[01:37:32] Speaker A: And an aging population is an expensive population.
[01:37:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:37:36] Speaker A: So it's fucked. It's. And that's in parallel, you know, the strain that that puts on those anti catered systems. All it's done is just exacerbate and hasten the, the infuckening. And then, and then that leads to me asking myself, hang on, didn't. Did the generation before me say this? And the generation before that and the generation before that. Is it just. Is it just fear?
[01:38:01] Speaker B: But here's the thing is, I mean that's a thing. Yeah, that's the thing that a lot of conservatives like to throw out, too. It's like, oh, well, they. People were upset about this before, and I think that is true. Like, with population, it is not as dire as we make it out to be. Population is not our problem. There is space for more humans. It's fine. No, population is not the issue at all. If the structures were set up differently, you would have room for plenty more humans on this planet. The issue is not how many people are here.
[01:38:26] Speaker A: It's not to believe that health care would be of a higher quality if it had to serve less people. That isn't a stretch for me to believe.
[01:38:36] Speaker B: That's a capitalist mindset. Right. Like, if healthcare is a commodity, then. Yes, that is true. If healthcare is not a commodity, but a human. Right, then that is not true.
It's being divvied out according to it being something that is afforded to the people who can pay for it. Right, okay.
So, yeah, I think there are degrees to which people have talked about overpopulation since it was half the amount of people here and stuff like that. And that's always going to be a thing. But there's also the sense that it's like, yeah, people started talking about, as we have discussed, climate change first became a thing someone brought up in, like, 1878 or something like that, and then became, you know, a bigger thing in, like, the 50s. And then truly in like, the 70s, people said, you know, we have 50 years to fix this. And people along the way have been like, oh, well, people have been saying this for ages. Well, 50 years is here. And sure enough, yeah, all of the things that they predicted have happened. Yes. And it is just as dire as those scientists were saying. And we can see it. It's not. It's not existential anymore. Right. Like, it's not a, like, thing that's on the horizon. We're watching, you know, places get wiped off the map by floods where, you know, it's 80 degrees in October. We're watching tornadoes happen in places they're not supposed to happen, all kinds of things like that. It's here, what they said. It's not a. Yeah, they said that. They've been saying this for. For generations. Because it was true. Yes, it's. It's. They were right, is what that is. So I don't think it's a get off my lawn or whatever kind of thing to say. I think it's, you know, actively surveying the landscape and seeing it accurately.
[01:40:23] Speaker A: And I will roll back on the statistic that I posited just then.
It's not.
It's something like seven. Well, it's still fucked, but it's not as fucked. Something like 7% of all of humans are alive now, and that is still pretty fucked up.
[01:40:42] Speaker B: That's a lot of people.
But, yeah, if the systems weren't what they are, then we would not have an issue. We're not running out of space.
[01:40:52] Speaker A: No. That much.
[01:40:53] Speaker B: There's enough room for all of us. Yeah, it's about, you know, the. The way we treat the planet that we're living on. That's the problem. And notably in places that do have high birth rates, they're often not places that are contributing to the destruction of this planet to the degree of some of our places where birth rate is falling.
[01:41:11] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[01:41:12] Speaker B: So.
[01:41:13] Speaker A: Which I for one, think is terrific news.
[01:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah. The fewer of those of us who are contributing to all of this, the better. But ultimately, you know, the people and how many of us there are not the problem. It is always systems and it's always this power that is the problem. People who don't have any incentive not to destroy as long as they get paid.
But I. You know, we're a little doom and gloom today, I think. You know, you. You've been in existential crisis mode a little today, and we just talked about something that seems impossible to stop or fix in any way, and America just keeps getting worse and worse.
And so, yeah, I think, you know, that puts us in a weird spot. But we've also. We've also had positive things that we've talked about on here too, and things that look up.
It's just sometimes it's a little harder to see that.
[01:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it is.
And again, you know, to come back to our remit, to come back to our principles, to come back to what we fucking do here every week. Not necessarily every Sunday, but every week.
You know, our mission statement is to keep us fucking sense of humor. Things are so bad that there's really no other fucking. What are you gonna do, cry? No. You might as well fucking have a Chuck.
[01:42:44] Speaker B: Maybe a little bit. You can cry some.
[01:42:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that is difficult, right?
That is difficult. The lolling at it all is the bit and the bedrock is a kind of a paralyzed fear.
[01:43:03] Speaker B: Mm.
[01:43:05] Speaker A: And that's a condition that I am in a lot of the time.
[01:43:11] Speaker B: Right.
[01:43:13] Speaker A: And it's causing me issues. It's caused me a lot of issues over the past couple kind of few months just to be kind of frozen with feelings of pointlessness and with feelings of futility and confusion. And not knowing what the fuck to do next. It's a problem. It is an issue for me and I don't it. Well, I've rabbit holed a little bit here but that's why I'm. I'm kind of examining my own mental well being and my own. What am I doing to enable myself to continue to function in this.
Listen, being completely candid, it has crossed my mind that is joag causing me more harm than good.
[01:44:00] Speaker B: Right. Just thinking about it, is that.
[01:44:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:44:02] Speaker B: Making it worse?
[01:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And it actually feels quite liberating to admit that to you.
I have wondered at length if like worrying at a fucking scab or.
[01:44:17] Speaker B: Right.
[01:44:18] Speaker A: If this ritual that we perform every week is fucking me up.
[01:44:24] Speaker B: I think we have talked about that before too. You know, what's the balance when it, when it comes to that stuff? Like is it. Yeah. Is it, you know, making it worse or is it a place to go with it? Like, you know, would you not dwell? And that is a delicate balance.
Probably changes by the week whether that's the case.
[01:44:47] Speaker A: Yes, it does.
[01:44:48] Speaker B: But you know, I think for me it's mostly a place to go with it instead of just sitting and letting it give me a tummy ache. Because that's usually what happens. Tummy ache about it.
[01:44:59] Speaker A: I'm not, I'm not tapping out. I'm not tapping out.
[01:45:01] Speaker B: No, I know you're not. I wasn't, I was merely stating my. I think what I've come to terms with on this is it more, you know, gives me somewhere to just say the rant.
[01:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:45:12] Speaker B: And have people, you know, and say hey, me too. Or it's not that bad, you know.
[01:45:20] Speaker A: And yet just 10 minutes outside my front door, man, it's just fields and beautiful blue skies and it's. And it's a lovely evening and people are friendly, you know, and it's so sometimes really, really difficult to reconcile that kind of local picture of my fucking. My neighbors always have a smile for me and I've got a really nice affluent area and my family are great. Right.
That's. That's so fucking short distance though. It's so narrow.
[01:45:55] Speaker B: It's so that come. I mean, I think that, that yeah, that's people who really grapple with the human condition and with empathy. Like that's. I think about this all the time because obviously, you know, I'm passionate about a lot of things, things like Palestine and stuff like that, you know, civil rights and the prison industrial combat complex and yada yada. And yet, you know, as far as I'm concerned, life wise, I'm like, I cannot imagine a better life for myself, I'll tell you.
[01:46:27] Speaker A: Fucking hell. If 45 year old me could just show even 16, 17 me where I've landed.
[01:46:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Be like, what, how, buddy, things are better than. How'd you pull it off?
[01:46:42] Speaker A: Yes, man, I'm a fucker.
[01:46:44] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. But yeah, I think that's an important element of it though is recognizing that duality of. For a lot of people like we were just talking about that comfort means that they don't want to be challenged by the fact that it is not like that everywhere. And that some of the decisions that we make in our day to day life are making things worse for other people or, you know, whatever the case may be, whether that's a thing we buy or, you know, can a kind.
[01:47:17] Speaker A: Of decision that I make.
Fucking, you know, white ass, mid-40s, middle England. Marco. Do I really have any agency, Do I really have any agency to change things positively or otherwise?
[01:47:32] Speaker B: Well, see, this is exactly it though, is that when you drill it down to that level, me comfortable in my house, you know, living my middle class life. Of course not. You don't matter. But it is when you get so many people that complacent. Yeah, that's why you don't matter. That's why what you do has no impact on the world because it benefits.
[01:47:54] Speaker A: There's so many of you fucking disproportionate section of the human fucking race.
[01:48:01] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That.
[01:48:03] Speaker A: I'm cool, I'm fine.
[01:48:03] Speaker B: And I think it's, yeah, it's our job not to do that. Not to insulate ourselves and to think, you know, what does it matter? I'm so comfortable and ultimately I'm just one drop. You know, it's everybody thinking about that that's the problem.
Comfortable people are the problem. It's the white moderate situation that, that Martin Luther King was talking about. Right. It's the people who ultimately, no matter which way this goes, aren't impacted by it. That's going to get. I'm going to be hotter in the summer. My basement might flood more. But I'm not going to be devastated by climate change the way someone in Guam is. So should. Does it matter then? You know, I think it does.
And that's, that's our job is to, is to think beyond us.
[01:48:54] Speaker A: On the two. Maybe twice I've, I've, I've tried to remonstrate with my dad. Right.
I was so disappointed the first time.
Exactly what he said was it was around the time of a general election. And he said I was on the phone to him just chatting shit.
And he sound. He ended the conversation. He. He threw this in at the end of the conversation because he knew it would lead to words. And his exact words were, see, I think it's time we. We kept Britain for the British, innit, boy? That's what he said. That's what he said to me. That's what my, My father said.
[01:49:38] Speaker B: Yikes.
[01:49:39] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, listen, hey, we'll. We'll talk about that another time.
I mean, he's my dad, but he's also a fucking horrific, fucking horrible, racist provincial kind of mindset, you know, I.
[01:49:52] Speaker B: Mean, this is why I've said, as much as I loved my dad, I'm kind of glad he's dead.
[01:49:56] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, I love my father and I'm glad he's, you know, he's still with me.
But yeah, his views aren't great. And my response to him was, fucking hell.
If you think it's bad now, then you just fucking hang on.
[01:50:16] Speaker B: Wait till the climate wars.
[01:50:17] Speaker A: Exactly. Wait until the climate migration happens. Wait until fucking water fucking scarcity is a thing. Wait until a couple of wet bulb events pops.
[01:50:25] Speaker B: Right.
[01:50:26] Speaker A: Wait until you get a couple of them in the world and then try and you'll be lucky if you can keep fucking Wales for the Welsh, mate. Or fucking Trediga for the fucking, you know, for. For Tretagarians.
[01:50:39] Speaker B: I guess you'd live on a fucking island. You know, you're lucky if it will still exist and you're not the climate refugees.
[01:50:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[01:50:47] Speaker B: Like, let's be real here.
Yeah. It's just. I don't know. And obviously it's. It's a funny thing to be like. I think that when we talk through these things, it reminds me not to be complacent or whatever. After I was just like, also, my vote doesn't count. But I'm specifically talking about that because that is a call to us to do more than just fill in a bubble every four years and wash our hands of it. You know, that we have to be engaged beyond that and not just simply sit in our own comfort knowing that it's gonna suck for somebody else, but not me.
[01:51:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:51:26] Speaker B: It's just part of the process.
[01:51:29] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep, yep. And yeah, processing is all I do, man.
[01:51:38] Speaker B: Yep. Which we all know you have said many times on this show is your least favorite thing to do.
[01:51:47] Speaker A: Well, if it. Only if that is true, then it's only because I can't Stop doing it. I can't stop thinking.
[01:51:56] Speaker B: Because it's a permanent state.
[01:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah. All the time. All the fucking time. All the time.
[01:52:02] Speaker B: Right. Which I think. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing is not like this is going to sound like I'm trying to convince you to stay on the podcast. I know you're not going anywhere. No, but I think that's one of the things is I don't think that would stop if we didn't talk about it.
Just. It's hard not to be in that state when you're watching everything collapse. So obviously, yes. You know, and just. Just thinking about things like what you said about longevity and healthcare and stuff like that in the United States, it's. It's getting worse. Our. Our longevity is going down for the first time in history. Maternal death rates are up. You know, it's getting worse to be here, not. Not better.
And that's not supposed to be how things work. And meanwhile battling all of these other kinds of things. And it's just, you know, you can't fight everything, I suppose. But I just. I want us to be able.
I want us. I want to know how we're going to organize, you know, I want to know what we're going to do. Because these rich people are going to kill us. Yes, that's really what it comes down to.
[01:53:17] Speaker A: Look, I gotta face the fact that even though I am currently in this very, very rigid loop, this feedback loop of panic and worry and analysis and anxiety and introspection, I can't get out of my own head.
But the alternative is at least I'm in my own head and I'm fucking thinking about this shit.
[01:53:45] Speaker B: Right.
[01:53:47] Speaker A: The alternative is to what? Not just.
[01:53:51] Speaker B: Yeah, just turn it off. Just, you know, play FIFA or whatever.
[01:53:57] Speaker A: Which is what I tried to do during COVID was to just shrink my horizons and shrink my fucking, you know, my boundaries and. And just look to my immediate. My dependents, those that I love and love me back, and look to us and make sure we're fine. That.
[01:54:20] Speaker B: Right.
[01:54:20] Speaker A: That was. That was my kind of damage limitation approach when things were fucking remember that? That was fucking wild, wasn't it?
[01:54:30] Speaker B: Sure was.
[01:54:32] Speaker A: But it breaks through. It breaks through the cold fucking reality that we've outlined or tried to fucking outline breaks through for me. I can't keep it out.
And it is. It's really damaging me somehow.
[01:54:57] Speaker B: I wonder, you know, if, like, getting involved in something or whatever would help, though, you know, like, that's one of the things. Like you again, like, you've seen that. I try to get involved with, like, my local politics and things like that. And I feel like, you know, at least moving the needle in town or whatever makes a difference, you know, it's not, it's not saving the world, but, like, maybe there's some benefit to people in Montclair of having me there.
You know, I think that sometimes that's like, what it takes is just like just doing a thing that feels like it isn't for that small world, the people in your house. You know, things like that can make.
Can take the edge off of feeling like everything is impossible and feel like, you know what, there are people out here doing the work.
[01:55:52] Speaker A: I mean, a balm for me is making certain that my ears carry some of this.
[01:56:05] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, exactly.
[01:56:10] Speaker A: I've heard it said that, you know, you can be judged on what you're prepared to ignore.
And I don't, you know, they. They know what's cool and what ain't.
[01:56:22] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. If you, you know, even something like talking about people as NPCs or something, you know, like, when they know. Yeah, right.
Learning to see people as. As people.
[01:56:34] Speaker A: Empathy will.
[01:56:35] Speaker B: Empathy. Yeah.
And that's something, you know, to. That, you know, every day you're passing that on and that you see it in your kids and stuff like that. I think those are the, those are the things. Those are the, the kinds of things that you look at. It's, you know, the kids that you're raising or the people that I'm, you know, helping in town with things or whatever the case may be is like, that's, you know, it's putting it into practice.
And I feel like there's something to that. You can't, maybe you can't save the.
[01:57:04] Speaker A: World, but you can leave it better.
[01:57:07] Speaker B: Maybe someone here, Right. Leave it better. And maybe someone that is a. In your, you know, network. I think it's just. It's feeling like people are doing the work. I think that's what it comes down to. It's. It's when you recognize that as we're sitting here looking and it looks like nobody is that people are actively doing it.
Helps to take away some of that existential dread.
[01:57:33] Speaker A: Yes. On that, I absolutely agree.
[01:57:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
Hey, look at that. There's some silver lining in this dread fest. If you guys are, you know, what do you guys use? What's. What do you do? Who do you look at? You know, it's like the Mr. Rogers thing. Look for the helpers. Like, what is it that makes it so that you don't sit and stare at the world and go, we can't fix this. What are your.
What are your mechanisms for that? Would love to know more about what you're doing and thinking and feeling and how you process.
[01:58:09] Speaker A: Do you know? I'll second that. And echo that and amplify that. I would love to know what.
What am I missing?
[01:58:19] Speaker B: Mmm. Yeah.
[01:58:21] Speaker A: Where are the cracks of light?
Show them to us, please.
[01:58:28] Speaker B: Hear, hear.
And while doing so, don't forget to just keep on keeping on staying spooky.
