Ep. 177: a scientology scandal & a brief history of assassination

[00:00:03] Speaker A: If I said the name Shelly Miscavige, would it mean anything to you? [00:00:09] Speaker B: How do you spell Miscavige? [00:00:12] Speaker A: M I s c a v I g. No. Okay, fair enough. I love that you checked like that was gonna be the thing. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Oh. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Oh. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Shelley Miscavige. Shelley Miscavige, modern era. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Well, that is the question. We'll get into that. I'm sure there are plenty of people listening right now who are Leo pointing at the podcast app, because they know exactly who I'm talking about. They might have even yelled into the void, where is she? [00:00:49] Speaker B: Oh, good. [00:00:50] Speaker A: That's the question. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:52] Speaker A: Where the fuck is Shelley Miscavige? [00:00:54] Speaker B: Where in the world is Shelley Miscavige? [00:00:59] Speaker A: What's. I thought you were doing Carmen Sandiego, but that wasn't Carmen Sandiego. [00:01:04] Speaker B: It absolutely was common San Diego. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Stop. No, it wasn't. [00:01:08] Speaker B: It was the reboot of common San Diego. Anyway, where in the world is common San Diego? [00:01:15] Speaker A: Stop. Is that how it sounded? [00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Where in the world is common San Diego? And it's brilliant. [00:01:25] Speaker A: It's not my rocket, though. [00:01:27] Speaker B: How does your version go? [00:01:30] Speaker A: Where in the world is common San Diego? And you have to start it with. Do it, Rockella. It's. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Nah, it's really good. I love Netflix. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Is that like the Netflix? [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:01:49] Speaker A: I know, right? All of a sudden, I watch Netflix all day. I'll have to. I'll. I'll give that a look. But it's very hard to top the OG carpet San Diego. [00:01:59] Speaker B: But Shelley Miss fucking cabbage, if she was a teacher, she'd be called. The kids would call her Shelly Miss Cabbage. [00:02:05] Speaker A: It's true. Yeah, definitely. She is the wife of the now also exiled Scientology head, David Miscavige. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Oh, former Scientology head, sort of. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Again, this is complicated. [00:02:22] Speaker B: We'll get it clear. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Well, of course, naturally, we've never delved into Scientology, specifically, in part because I feel like it's a little played out. Like, not that it's not interesting, but if you want to know more about it, you've got bajillions of podcasts on it. I always recommend last podcast on the left. Yeah. [00:02:41] Speaker B: To speak on this a little bit, I'm always weary on Joag of us talking about stuff that other people have talked about better than we have. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Cause we are a little bit cursory, and my grasp of fact, I don't really care about them. And while I don't want to just talk bullshit, I don't want to lie. I don't want to actually spread disinformation I also. I'm a broad guy. I like concepts. I like ideas. I like feelings. I lead with my heart always. And if it's a detail you want, I don't want to talk about concepts and ideas and events on which there are other painstaking, granular, detailed records of. And so Scientology is off books for us unless we're talking about, you know, something broad. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly how I feel about it. Like, we do, like, 20 to 40 minutes, like, looks at things, you know, when there's so many deep dives. Like I said, you've got last podcast on the left. You've got the South park episode talking about their beliefs. You've got Leah Remini's show, scientology in the aftermath, the documentary going clear of. And perhaps my favorite doc on the subject, Louis Theroux's my Scientology movie, which is a delight. Have you seen that one? [00:03:57] Speaker B: No, I haven't. But let me tell you, there have been plenty of times, many the times, actually, when I've been handed a pamphlet on a street. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:08] Speaker B: You know, do you feel sometimes that there are bigger things out there? Do you feel you were made for more? You know, just come to this address for a free screening of a movie. And I've kind of gone, and I've thought of these questions, and I've gone, fucking, yeah, I do. I love movies. I love watching movies. And I've walked past the fucking Scientology headquarters plenty of times. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Where is this London that they have? [00:04:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Where is it? [00:04:39] Speaker B: Oh, I can't remember off the top of my head. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. [00:04:42] Speaker B: Somewhere on the streets of London. And I've just thought, what if I just pop in and just say to them, I'm an empty fucking mess, man. I need something. I need something to fill. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Salivating. [00:04:57] Speaker B: Oh, God damn. My fucking. My. Is it my Midi chlorian count is so low. I need. Can you help me? [00:05:08] Speaker A: Oh, and they would be glad to, let me tell you. So, yeah, we haven't delved into Scientology if you know nothing about it. There are so many places that you could turn this off and go listen to before I talk about this particular thing. But there are plenty of little crevices of Scientology to explore because it's huge and dysfunctional and predatory and full of secrets. So I'm happy to discuss those. And there's perhaps no stranger corner of Scientology than the one where they've either hidden or buried Shelley Miscavige. So let's talk about who she is. Michelle. Shelley Barnett was born into Scientology, and was part of L. Ron Hubbard's commodore's messengers organization. I don't know if you. I mean, you've seen going clear and stuff like that. So a thing about L. Ron Hubbard is that in sort of the later years of Scientology, as he was dodging various legal proceedings and scandals and things like that, he decided to take to sea with Scientology. You know, get that maritime law going, make it, make it. So he was untouchable. And thus the, like, main sort of overarching organization, the power in Scientology is called Sea, S E a. And so, thus there's a lot of ship named things within this organization. So, like I said, the commodore's messengers organization. And this is basically a bunch of. [00:06:45] Speaker B: I love the idea of Scientology pirates, man. [00:06:48] Speaker A: It's like the lamest part. Pirates on the planet, just shit. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Feared by no one. [00:06:53] Speaker A: Exactly. I just want to give you a stress test. They're annoying. They're not. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Oh, can you fuck off? All right, then. Would you like to see a free movie below deck? [00:07:08] Speaker A: No, we can take care of your psychic scars, yar. I love it. So this organization, the commodore's messenger organization, was basically a bunch of teenage girls who answered to all of Hubbard's whims. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Like lighting his cigarettes and bringing him drinks, as well as carrying messages and commands to other members of Scientology, all while wearing hot pants and halter tops. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. [00:07:39] Speaker B: It was. It was difficult to excuse. Yeah, before the outfit. [00:07:46] Speaker A: This kind of stuff is always wild to me because all these girls parents knew and were proud to have their daughters dressed up like hooters. Waitresses serving this old ass, man, like, that was like a cool thing. And this is not the only cult that's like this. There are certainly other ones, like children of God and stuff like that, that have weird shit like that. Or the Oneida community that we talked about a while back where, you know, they would have, uh, the youngsters have sex with the older people so that. [00:08:19] Speaker B: Listen, couldn't get them pregnant. [00:08:20] Speaker A: It's like, what is so many examples. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Of people wielding power, getting their prey served up to them on a platter by their parents. I'm reminded of, you know, so many of Jimmy Savile's victims were just served to him by their parents who were fucking drawn into his spell and thought that they, you know, that their kids would gain some kind of fucking. Well, yeah, exposure, but not the kind that. [00:08:45] Speaker A: Wrong kind of exposure. Yeah. And there was that documentary a few years ago on Netflix. I can't remember what it's called, but it was like, bananas, where like, this guy just like, groomed the entire family until they basically just like, let him keep their daughter that he was sleeping with. And you're just like, what is wrong with you people? And Shelly became one of these messengers when she was twelve. It's just so gross. And I guess, to be fair, her parents weren't the most stable folks on earth. Her father was a struggling handyman, and her mother, as Vanity Fair puts it, had emotional issues. I see. And just for the record, a lot of this information, obviously, the sources are all on our blog and in the description here, but a lot of this biography and stuff comes from a very extensive vanity Fair article. That's one of the, like, most extensive retellings of everything that happened. So when I'm quoting stuff and things like that, unless I say otherwise, that's probably where it's from. And as such, they basically dumped Shelley and her sister off in Hubbard's care, making him more or less their parent and causing them to end up very close to him and his inner circle. Mike Rinder, who youll know if youve watched pretty much any Scientology content, said of young Shelley youd see this pretty young girl with blonde hair and sneakers, but suddenly shed be interrogating people with what are you doing and why are you doing it? Scientology is an extremely authoritarian organization, and people with power love to assert it in often domineering and abusive ways. So growing up at the right hand of Hubbard himself, its not surprising that Shelley was totes comfortable with being a tyrant to people multiple times her age. Meanwhile, Hubbard had also trained up another tiny tyrant who would become his replacement once he kicked the bucket, a five foot five asthmatic from Philadelphia named David Miscavige. Miscavige was Scientology's wunderkind. He started running auditing sessions when he was twelve years old, which are exactly what they're calling you in for from the street, like, oh, why don't you come in here? And then we'll give you this little test or whatever. And it's supposed to reveal these things using this device called an e meter. And it's going to talk about, what are those psychic scars inside you? What are the things that you have to deal with until you can go through these levels? [00:11:19] Speaker B: And eventually, as far as we know, that is still their practice today. That is still the way that they recruit new scientologists today. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yep. And it works. You know, I remember walking like, you know, walking through the mall or down Hollywood Boulevard, and there were always these people coming up and being like, oh, do you want to, like, free stress test? And, yeah, it was the auditing, and they're getting you in the door for that Scientology auditing. And once they get you in there, they're really good at keeping you there, which apparently miscavige was excellent at. And, yeah, it's still how they do it. I don't come across them much anymore because I'm a homebody and don't go anywhere. Scientologists are. But miscavige doing this as a child was unheard of. And at 16, he went ahead and dropped out of school to join the sea, basically. You know, like I said, the governing body of scientology, which requires you to sign a billion year contract of service. It's so good. And once a part of the organization, that's optimistic. It really is. Right. We're sitting here like, I don't know if there's gonna be an earth in 25 years, and they're like, billion years of service. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Fair play. [00:12:41] Speaker A: And you will serve it. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Good for them. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Good for them. You know, we need that kind of optimism in the world. But once he became a part of the organization, it's pretty well documented that he was a giant dick, a total narc, a backstabber. You couldn't trust him as far as. [00:12:59] Speaker B: You could throw him, which at five foot five. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's probably pretty far, actually. [00:13:04] Speaker B: I could sling that guy. This data isn't available, I'm sure. But Tom Cruise is not a tall guy, is he? [00:13:15] Speaker A: No, he is not. No. Probably. [00:13:21] Speaker B: I'd like to know if you were to line up all of the scientologists you know. Are they. Are they. Do they skew short? [00:13:30] Speaker A: Well, I mean, especially when you're talking about, like, the high ranking Scientologists. Yeah, a lot of them are celebrities, and celebrity men are tiny, so I. Do you know any more? Just off the top of your heads, tiny men? [00:13:44] Speaker B: No, no. Celebrity scientologist. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Oh, well, most famously, it was like, yeah, sure. The guy came to. Came to check out our sighting the other day. He was really little. No. [00:13:59] Speaker B: Is he a scientologist? [00:14:01] Speaker A: I'll ask him next time. Let's see. Obviously, John Travolta is the most famous. Not a tiny man, but he is a famous scientologist. Giovanni Rubisi and his sister Marisa. [00:14:11] Speaker B: Oh, such a shame. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Beck was raised in Scientology, I believe, but he is no longer associates himself with that. Okay, were we just doing Jenna Elfman from Dharma and Greg is a scientologist. What's her face from the handmaid's tale? Scientologist Elizabeth. Elizabeth Moss. Yes, obviously, the Masterson family. Danny Masterson, Christopher Masterson, tons of them. They're all over the place. You don't have to look very far too. Find a scientologist in the Hollywood landscape. They're usually fairly quiet about it. You know, you get the loud ones, like Tom Cruise, like the late Kirstie alley, things like that. [00:14:59] Speaker B: But in Juliet Lewis. [00:15:02] Speaker A: Ooh, yeah, I think I did know that. Yeah, I think I actually, when we were watching that one movie for the watch along, I looked and I was like, oh, right, yep. Yeah, a lot of those. Those lifelong, like, child star type people and things like that. Definitely scientologists. So, yeah, there's bajillions. [00:15:25] Speaker B: Isaac Hayes. What the fuck? [00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Remember he quit South park over the Scientology episode? Yeah, I know, right, tambor. [00:15:35] Speaker B: Very disappointing. Neil Gaiman. What the fuck? Get the fuck out here. [00:15:38] Speaker A: Is not a scientologist. There is absolutely no way that raised. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Scientologist in East Grinstead. Oh, he's left. He's quit. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Ah, there you go. That's the crazy thing, though, is that, like, that people are raised in Scientology. You know, like, because it seems like something that you get sucked into later on, especially because that's what their outreach is. Right? Like, they're trying to get people, especially aspiring actors and stuff like that. They'll do, like, offer acting classes and stuff like that with a famous person. And so it's hard to imagine that people are raised in it. Like, they're raised Catholic and whatnot. So there are also Scientologists, celebrities who were raised in it, but no longer are part of the church. [00:16:27] Speaker B: I love it. I love this. [00:16:31] Speaker A: It's wild, isn't it? Like, I don't think I've ever heard the rabisis talk about Scientology, but. But they are definitely actively members. And Elizabeth Moss has, like, come out and been like, oh, all the rumors about Scientology are not true and stuff like that. But generally, she doesn't talk about it a whole heck of a lot. It's like, when forced, she had to say something. So, yeah, where were we on this? Rabbled a little bit, so. Right, so David Miscavige is an absolute asshole. Can't trust him. Let's see. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Just super briefly, I was very disappointed to hear about Giovanni Rubisi, but upon looking him up, I realize that I've confused him with Paul Giamatti, so that's fine. [00:17:23] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah, those are very different. [00:17:26] Speaker B: So different. [00:17:27] Speaker A: But I had a giant crush on Giovanni Rubisi when I was a kid. I saw the DPO episode of X Files and was like, I like that guy a lot. [00:17:38] Speaker B: I tell you what, this. This does not bode well for the rest of the episode. This lack of focus. I'm so sorry. [00:17:44] Speaker A: Well, you know what? It's fine. I mean, I hope it's fine, dear listeners, I hope it's fine with you too. [00:17:50] Speaker B: So little wheezy David Miscavige. [00:17:53] Speaker A: Little wheezy David Miscavige is a total, total asshole. Um, uh, let's see. One former scientologist who had the misfortune to live in the dorms with Miss Cavage, reported that after he told him he was having some doubts about Scientology, quote, he made sure that all of my stuff was taken out of our dormitory room and put it in the hallway. He just moved me out lock, stock, and barrel, so I had no place to sleep. Just told on the guy. That's so insane. Like, and he wasn't like a teacher. He was just a student. [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I hate a narc, man. I fucking hate a narc. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Come the fuck on. So David and Shelley's dedication to Scientology and love for exercising power over their peers made them an obvious match, especially when paired with their golden child statuses within the organization. Of course you'd want Hubbard's darling and the upstart auditing prodigy who'd betray his best friends for the good of the faith to date each other. And Shelley wasn't a whole lot more popular with her peers than David was with his, her friends, finding her to be too status hungry, causing them to leave her out of things. Thus, abandoned by her parents and ostracized by her peers, David's attentions became her world. But as Rinder points out, that's not to say she was subservient at the time. She didn't kowtow to David just because she was super into him. They had equal status in the organization, and she was a force to be reckoned with in her own right. After much maneuvering and backstabbing, David Miscavige was named the successor to Hubbard upon his death in 1986. And he took Shelley with him, making her not only his first lady, but his assistant. And not in, like, a taking calls and setting up his meeting sort of way, but more in a, like, Commander Riker sort of way, that kind of assistant. After a while, though, things started to shift. She was no longer his equal. He was her boss. And they didn't even interact like a married couple anymore, or at least not one with a super healthy relationship. They were never alone when they went out, and when they came home, they went to separate bedrooms. One former scientologist who worked closely with them said that in 15 years, he never saw them kiss or be affectionate with one another, never saw him even casually touch her while hanging out in informal settings. This was validated by another ex C.org staffer who said there was obviously a working relationship, but odd. I don't think I once saw miscavige, hug or kiss or anything. Shelley. I spent a lot of time with them. There was no real affection. Signs that their weird relationship was taking a toll on her became apparent. She allegedly began to obsess over her makeup, her hair, her weight, and rigid adherence to an all natural diet made her increasingly gaunt. What relationships she had managed to build with female colleagues began to grow increasingly strained, and she had strong negative reactions to attractive women, especially if they seemed to be flaunting it. Tom devoted. [00:20:58] Speaker B: What does that mean? What does that mean exactly? [00:21:01] Speaker A: Tom Devote reported Shelley once bursting into his office, slamming the door and shouting at him to get his bitch, cunt, fucking whore wife away from her husband, continuing to complain that she's always hanging her tits in his face and claiming that it was obvious they were having some sort of affair. She sounds lovely. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Oh, what a turn of phrase. That's fucking beautiful. She's always hanging her tits in her face. Bitch, cunt, Titan. [00:21:31] Speaker A: It's a really phrase right there. [00:21:33] Speaker B: I. She might. I've got a free movie that I think she'd benefit from. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Someone needs a stress test. Yeah. And according to the article, like, basically, devote's wife was just known for wearing, like, tank tops, and that was what set her off. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Oh, I think we have different ideas about what tank tops are, though, don't we? [00:21:54] Speaker A: Oh, do we? [00:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Describe for me a tank top if. [00:21:57] Speaker A: You would like a shirt with straps. [00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. It's a woolen vest. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Nope. [00:22:07] Speaker B: But we also have different ideas about what a vest is. [00:22:10] Speaker A: That's true too, I guess. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:12] Speaker A: But it wouldn't be woolen, like, a tank top is like. Yeah, be like cotton or whatever. Like woolen. [00:22:19] Speaker B: It's like a jump of straps. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Or like, a wife beater would be a tank top. [00:22:22] Speaker B: Okay, thank you. [00:22:24] Speaker A: Which I know there's a word other than wife beater for, but I can. [00:22:26] Speaker B: Never remember what it is. [00:22:29] Speaker A: What do they call it now? It's got, like, a name. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Unusual that you would have chosen that term, Corey. I don't know. You of all people. [00:22:38] Speaker A: Listen, I was raised in the two thousands. It was a terrible time. I don't know what this better world calls things anymore. Somebody. [00:22:46] Speaker B: I mean, I feel I've grown throughout the joag journey. [00:22:50] Speaker A: And yet you don't know what it's called either. [00:22:53] Speaker B: No. [00:22:54] Speaker A: There you go. Anyways, she would wear tank tops. Shelly didn't like it because of the tits hanging all over the place, but sexual escapades didn't really seem to be Miscavige's vibe. Like Hubbard, he surrounded himself with hot young women, but more for their undying loyalty and servitude than because he was interested in them sexually. David's central interest was basically becoming a dictator. He was verbally abusive and physically violent with people in the organization, especially the high ups. Usually in these kinds of organizations, you're more protected the closer you are to the leader. But it's the exact opposite in Scientology. If you were just an everyday Joe in Scientology, you'd most likely never experience the ugliest elements of the religion. But if you were in David's inner circle, he was prone to bouts of punching, shoving, and choking, as well as subjecting anyone the cut of whom's jib he didn't like that day to what Vanity Fair describes to you as north korean style re education camps, wherein you would survive on a meager diet of rice and beans and do not only hard labor, but do it in humiliating ways, like scrubbing a bathroom floor with your tongue. [00:24:11] Speaker B: Oh, Christ. So he. He wasn't sexually into, you know, the honeys that he would keep around, wouldn't go near his wife. [00:24:20] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:21] Speaker B: Something up with the guy? [00:24:24] Speaker A: I mean, it's. I mean, he could be asexual, he could be gay, or he could simply just, like, not give a fuck because he's too busy trying to, you know. [00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm just. I'm trying to build. I'm trying to profile this little. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I don't think that there's, like. I don't know that anyone has a sense of that. I don't think that there's anything that, like, obviously, there's a lot of. Within Scientology, one of the common things that you hear is that, like, a lot of the men in it are gay and are using Scientology as cover ups. Tom Cruise and John Travolta being. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. [00:24:55] Speaker A: The huge examples of that. However, with Miscavige, there's no, like, there's no infidelity rumors at all, like, with male or female, there's no rumors that he has ever hooked up with anyone. So I would guess at, like. Like, maybe he's asexual and he's just interested in power and not interested in sex at all. Yeah, would be my guess. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what his porn intake is like. Maybe he's very sexual on his own. [00:25:24] Speaker B: But he's still alive, then. [00:25:26] Speaker A: He is still alive, yes. He's not that old. I think he's probably in his fifties. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Okay. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Something like that now. Interesting. Yeah. So, yeah, it is a weird vibe, though, that it's like he's not interested in his wife. He's not interested in any of these girls. He doesn't seem to be interested in men. He's just interested in being total ass to everyone around him. And so, for the record, the torture and abuse at these, like, re education camps is described in the last podcast and the last episodes on him. And I very much recommend giving that a listen, because it's, like, deeply unhinged, the stuff that they would make people do at these camps. And it's wild to me how much shit he put his staffers through, and they just fucking took it. Both of them. [00:26:15] Speaker B: That would never not be crazy to me. [00:26:17] Speaker A: Right? Like, both of them were absolutely miserable to be around, and it was really hard to challenge them because you didn't want to be on the receiving end of whatever punishment they doled out. But I think it's important to recognize here that Scientologists are true believers. I mean, I don't know what David believes. He maybe doesn't. I don't know. He's been in it so long, he may really believe all this, but adherents really believe this stuff. So there's a lot at stake. If you find yourself on the wrong side of the organization, you will, and you'll take a lot of bullshit if you think it's about saving your everlasting soul, you know? So I think that's all, obviously, at the core of a lot of people sticking around. Despite being, like, horribly abused by this terrible person, and despite all evidence saying otherwise, including the fact that she would verbally berate even her best friends, for whatever reason, folks seem to think that deep down, there was a decent and nice person inside of Shelley. Sounds like a touch of the deluge. [00:27:19] Speaker B: He said he wasn't David. [00:27:22] Speaker A: No. But, um, for the sake of argument, I'll allow that. Maybe she had a good heart, but learned some really horrible coping mechanisms due to the admittedly shitty way she grew up. She apparently was committed to volunteer and charitable work. She made sure sea members with health issues received care. She mentored girls in the messenger program, and she even seemed to show genuine interest in her family members who had left the church, asking how they were doing, just to know rather than to gather intel, which is usually why scientologists ask about former members. One of their big things is if people leave, they make sure they know everything about you, so that if you ever say a word against them, they can come after you. She often ran interference when David, in a rage, would sentence members to rehabilitation camps, finding ways to sort out whatever offense they'd caused and prevent the punishment she'd do behind the scenes, finagling to soften some of the church's unhinged policies, and would try to intervene. When she saw David's rages turn towards physical violence, and under her own ragey and controlling surface, most people saw a pitiable figure who was lonely and isolated. They may not have liked her, but they felt bad for her, which is deeply embarrassing, to be honest. The idea that everyone hates you, but also they just let you do your thing because you're pathetic. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Oh. [00:28:45] Speaker A: That is the worst possible thing that I can imagine. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, all right, whatever. Sure, you're sad. [00:28:54] Speaker A: In a story that makes my tummy hurt with pity. One woman says that she saw Shelley having breakfast alone and asked if she wanted to hang out. They went shopping and then to Benihana's for dinner. And when the chef asked if they were sisters, Shelly replied, no, we're best friends. After one outing. That's so sad. Like, Jesus Christ, Shelley. So to add a further tragic layer to Shelley's story, her mother had left mainstream Scientology in the mid eighties and joined a splinter group that went against Miss Cabbage. Kind of like, you know, latter day Saints and fundamentalist latter day Saints and things like that. There's always. You're like, that's a cult. When you split off, you should leave. But then they just make another group. And this, of course, really enraged David. Her mother was found dead of a supposed suicide, having somehow shot four bullets into her own head and chest with a long rifle and slit both her wrists. Seems legit. [00:29:58] Speaker B: Wow. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. I. Yep. Silly act. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm struggling. Shot themselves in the head four times. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Fuck the head and chest four times. And slit her rests. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Wow. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Feels difficult, to be honest. [00:30:18] Speaker B: It feels like an act of real purpose, you know? [00:30:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Almost as if, you know, someone who was mad at you did it. [00:30:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Instead of yourself. Um, Shelley acted hard about it, allegedly responding, good riddance that bitch. When she heard. But when clearly your husband had your mom killed. What are you supposed to do? Make a thing of it? You gotta walk it the fuck off. Obviously, as one ex member put it, Shelley was cowed. She was always stressed, she was never sleeping. She was just run ragged because of that. She was often in a bad mood and thats where some people would say they just hated her. But she was never an evil person. And I thought she really cared. It was just a God awful situation. Situation. But now it has been nearly 17 years since anyone has seen Shelley Miscavige, who completely vanished from public view after last being seen at her father's funeral in August of 2007. She had already largely been out of the public view since 2006. The writing was on the wall when David demanded restructuring within the sea, but balked at every draft that was presented to him. Shelley ended up making some executive decisions and sent out a chart with new titles and duties that she had not run by David first. What was perhaps worse, as David was leaving elsewhere, she boxed up and moved some of his stuff to what Vanity Fair describes as a temporary housing unit while she was trying to remodel the place. He didn't like that. What came next is chilling. People said that Shelley knew she was living on borrowed time, becoming withdrawn in the following days, doing little work, and telling her staff that shed cook for herself and that they shouldnt bother looking after her. She sheepishly inquired in a roundabout way as to whether her husband was still wearing his wedding ring, and before long, she was stripped of all duties and kept under constant watch. After the funeral, her staff was told that they wouldnt have to launder her clothing anymore as she was on a special project. There was never any announcement. It wasn't addressed among scientologists. Cause that wasn't the sort of thing that you questioned. But one. Leah Remini, star of the sitcom king of Queens, Scientologist and friend of Shelley Miscavige. Miscavige did. She was baffled as to why Shelley wasn't present at the wedding of scientologist's biggest star, Tom Cruise, to Katie Holmes. It's like if Kate Middleton suddenly disappeared from public view in January, and the royals started posting photoshopped images and videos from November to try to prove she was fine. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Please. [00:33:01] Speaker A: No, I just had to bring it back. I'm sorry, I just had to. But seriously, the first lady of Scientology not showing up for the crew's wedding was unfathomable. And Remini just couldn't stop asking about it until she was told, quote, you don't have the fucking rank to ask about Shelley. [00:33:20] Speaker B: Which is like, are they? And I don't expect you to know this. I'm just kind of thinking out loud, but, you know, does Scientologist. Does Scientology have kind of delineated ranks like that? [00:33:34] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Oh, it does. Mm hmm. This is what, like, so obviously, the sea is, like, up at the top and things like that, but, like, you're. It's an inherently ranked thing from the bottom. Right. So as you do those auditing sessions and whatnot, and you're trying to get clear, there are levels that you go through to get you closer and closer. And I think eight is the top level. And that's when they can reveal the whole truth of Scientology to you. And that's, like, what that. The parts that, like, the South park episode was talking about where there's, like, this weird, like, xenu alien God guy and all that kind of stuff, and it's like, insane science fiction craziness. Like, you don't hear about that in those early levels after you take your little stress test. They don't. They're not trying to scare you away. If the first thing they told you was like, ooh. Also, you know, there's all these, like, alien things involved in this stuff. Like, most people would be like, okay, this is crazy. And they would leave. So you work your way up through these ranks until you finally get to, like, possess the actual knowledge of this. [00:34:42] Speaker B: That bit I kind of knew. But, I mean, like, is there. [00:34:45] Speaker A: And then within the sea, you have all these different levels of people who are, you know, in the sort of inner circle. You've got, like, those. You know, it's basically, like I said, like, because he sort of modeled this out of, like, a naval thing. It's like, you've basically got a little navy of people with their various ranks around you. So, yeah, some people would have the rank to be aware of, like, the stuff that's going on in the inner circle. The vast majority don't. But, like, the thing is, like, you know, I don't mean to make this. I'm not being silly this time about the Kate Middleton comparison, but, like, genuinely, the thing with, like, the Kate Middleton stuff was, like, we all were making fun of them because all they needed to do was say what was going on. Right? [00:35:36] Speaker B: Yes. It was an easy fix, wasn't it? [00:35:38] Speaker A: The COVID up of what's going on is what makes the conspiracy. Right. In this case. Like, if Leah Remini's asking after Shelley, like, they could have let her talk to her. They could have, you know, put a picture out, like, any number of things to be like, see, she's fine. Like, have her talk to her on the phone or something. She's clearly not okay, because they did nothing to try to cover it up. Just said, you don't have the rank to know. Which is, like, inherently, she's been sent somewhere she's not. Fine. [00:36:15] Speaker B: The silence is damning, isn't it? [00:36:17] Speaker A: Right? And they're hiding it. They're not pretending, like, oh, you know, she went to go visit her cousins. She's really sad about her dad. You know, like, they're just like, we did something to her, and you don't have enough rank to know what we did to her. So at Christmas time, she didn't receive her yearly thank you note from Shelley, which raised further questions. For seven years, she kept asking and kept getting told to shut the fuck up. And according to Vanity Fair, journalists who followed Scientology came to the conclusion that Shelley had been sent to, quote one of the church's secretive and tightly controlled outer bases, a thing even most sea members aren't aware exist. So again, there's level even within, like, the highest rung of people. Only a certain circle would have any idea this exists, and this would still continue, because one of the things that's important about scientologists is they don't read outside news on Scientology. So we know more about how Scientology works than scientologists do, which is a crazy thing to think of. But they are not told any of this. And it is deeply not allowed for them to read publications talking about this. So they wouldn't know that this compound exists. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Um, tangential here, but related. Right. My darling, darling, darling, darling wife and life partner, right. Who I am visibly affectionate towards. And, you know, I. You know, I'm not like, the kind of miscaviges, you know, we have an actual relationship where we're actually. [00:37:53] Speaker A: I've seen it with my own eyes. [00:37:55] Speaker B: There you go. I kissed her one time. It was great. She is part of a society known as the Freemen of Oxford, right? [00:38:06] Speaker A: Okay. [00:38:07] Speaker B: And it was a whole thing with her because she was one of the first ever kind of, uh, uh, non male, uh, people to be sworn into this rank of Freeman of Oxford. You've got to be descended from Oxford natives. And it. And it's fucking. I I find it comedic, but it's bullshit. Right? [00:38:26] Speaker A: Stone cutters type shit. [00:38:28] Speaker B: It is exactly that. And if you're a freeman of Oxford, you get grazing rights of your cattle on a particular fucking bit of blah, blah, blah. [00:38:36] Speaker A: And you don't have a cow. [00:38:38] Speaker B: No, not yet. I mean, if we. If we get one that'll certainly play into the decision. Yeah. But it's. It's just absolute fucking pointless bollocks. Right? [00:38:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:49] Speaker B: And yet Laura doesn't so much, but her family take it so goddamn seriously. [00:38:54] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. [00:38:55] Speaker B: And they, you know, and they're super proud of her for having been having done this. And she went to some fucking little ceremony, and it. It serves and achieves nothing of any fucking substance at all outside of that little fucking club of dickheads. It is for no reason. It is for no purpose. It isn't for anything. [00:39:18] Speaker A: I mean, it's for networking, right. I mean, and for power. [00:39:22] Speaker B: A lot that I. Not. Not that I'm. Not that I've seen. I mean, they print a little newsletter, interacts with. [00:39:29] Speaker A: It probably makes a difference, but she doesn't. [00:39:31] Speaker B: She doesn't. That's what I mean at all. [00:39:33] Speaker A: By not interacting with it. She's not, you know, a part of that. But I would wager, like, the Masons and things like that, you know, that the stonecutters were based on. And even, like, more benign organizations like the Elks and stuff like that, like, they're meant to be networking organizations. And often, you know, the reason they're all men is it's about power and, you know. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Sure, sure. Yeah. [00:39:57] Speaker A: So, like, now your weird remnant of that is like, oh, you can graze your cow on this land. But I'm sure that at one point, there were a lot more perks that the men who were a part of this organization got than what they have now. [00:40:16] Speaker B: What strikes me is that not so much Scientology, because it clearly still has pawns in place all over the fucking place, you know? But, you know, and organizations like that and the Masons externally, to those looking in, it just. It is. It is just laughable. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's dumb. Like, you do you watch the righteous gemstones? You have to watch the righteous gemstones. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Oh, I've seen gemstones. Fucking love the righteous gemstones. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Yeah, righteous gemstones. Great. And then it's. I think in the third season, I was about to call him Kenny, and that's not his name in this show. I didn't even watch that. [00:40:52] Speaker B: Kenny fucking powers forever. [00:40:54] Speaker A: Kenny Powers. [00:40:55] Speaker B: Oh, eastbound and down is the shit. You've got to watch east bundle down. It's superb. [00:40:59] Speaker A: There's so many things to watch. But whatever his name is on righteous gemstones, he joins, like, an organization that's like that, too, you know, and where he constantly gets in trouble for swearing within the organization, and they do this, like, elaborate spanking ritual in the place. And it's like, yeah. Is so stupid to those of us on the outside, but, like, on the inside of it, like, this is deeply meaningful to people. And, of course, a lot of this stuff, again, at least historically, was about the transfer of power between people. So you. Normally. The people, that's why this club she's a part of, you have to be able to prove, like, your Oxford ancestry and things like that. Like, think about who's excluded from joining that club because they can't say they're from here and stuff like that because they're trying to maintain power amongst a certain group of people as a result. Right. So, I mean, I don't think it's, like, inherently that different from this or, like, any kind of weird. [00:42:08] Speaker B: There are parallels, aren't there? That are certainly parallels to be drawn. [00:42:11] Speaker A: Yeah. When you look from the outside at all the pomp and circumstance in these kinds of religious things, it's like, these people are crazy. But on the inside, it's like, no, this is important tradition that we must uphold. [00:42:24] Speaker B: Humans, man. [00:42:25] Speaker A: Human fucking humans are weird, man. I think that, like, I think about this a lot, and maybe it's something that we can talk about at some point at length. But I. I think some of us are more turned off by the Larp than others. You know, like, some people really get into, like, you know, acting like they're a military or acting like they're some. [00:42:47] Speaker B: Sort of important totems, symbols passed down, hereditary, nice cloaks, titles. Oh, people get fucking proper into that. I know. [00:42:57] Speaker A: Where to me, I'm like, it's. It's artificial. You're. You're playing dress up. [00:43:01] Speaker B: It's shit that you've invented for no reason. I don't care. [00:43:04] Speaker A: Like, you might as well, like, do you have legos? Like, are you guys gonna have some fruit snacks at the end of the meeting? You know what I mean? So, yeah, all of this stuff is kind of in that vein. But anyway, to get back to Shelly here. [00:43:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:19] Speaker A: At Christmas time, Leah Remini didn't receive her yearly thank you note from Shelley, which raised further questions. Like I said. So seven years she tries to find out, and seven years she is told, fuck you. You can't know what's going on here. And so the journalists think she's at this compound specifically. [00:43:38] Speaker B: Do you know where this compound is? Physically where it is? [00:43:41] Speaker A: I was about to tell you that. [00:43:43] Speaker B: Excellent. [00:43:44] Speaker A: I yearn for the knowledge there are multiple of these compounds, but specifically, the ones she's thought to be living in is in Lake Arrowhead, which is up in the mountains outside of Los Angeles. It's a nice little place that we all like to go, to go see the lake or to ski and things like that. But it's full of the worst human beings you've ever met in your life. Just deeply conservative, backwards ass people live in Lake Arrowhead. The dozen or so people who live at this compound there have pretty much zero contact with the outside world. But if you're there voluntarily, it's considered a huge honor. You're protecting Scientology's most prized documents and secrets. So, like, these different little places they have set up in various points all over the United States, all, like, harbor, different stuff that is deeply important to Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard's archives, things like that, you know? Yeah, but Shelley would have been put through the wringer first with a sec check, which involves a bevy of interrogations that would have been reported back to her husband. Afterwards, she would have undergone months of auditing and reprogramming, followed by another several months of hard labor, until she finally evinced satisfactory degrees of contrition, obeisance, and clarity. In that vanity Fair article, former scientologists explained that she would do all this and stay at the compound, not because she has to, but because she wants to, explaining she lives in a sort of demented, altered universe. Whatever she thinks of David Miscavige, she is devoted to Hubbard. That's the only life she's ever known. But that article was published in 2014, when she'd been missing for seven years. A decade later, still, no one has seen her. There are only two, three ish reports of anyone having glimpsed her since the funeral in 2006. One was by police, who, after Remedy, filed a missing persons report, claimed to have been in contact with her and dismissed that anything was wrong. But the cops are famous for being in cahoots with Scientology. And in a Twitter thread in. Oh, yeah, very much so. Yeah. In a Twitter thread in 2022, Remini more or less called that welfare check a farce. When she asked the cops if they had actually physically seen Shelley, she was told they couldn't give her that info and that she could file a public records request if she wanted to know more. She spent $50,000 in legal fees trying to obtain those records, but the cops kept on blocking it, and she never got to them. In the thread, she showed emails between the captain of the Hollywood division of the LAPD and Scientology showing the friendly relationship between him and the organization, and that he actually offered them extra help and connections. Further, the detective specifically in charge of the Miscavige case, spoke at an event at the Scientology Celebrity center. So not exactly the most reliable narrators about Shelley's whereabouts when they are deeply in the pockets of Scientology. The other sighting was reported in 2016, when a source said that she had seen Shelley going into a hardware store the year before, escorted by two men and looking disheveled, almost like she was homeless. The same source said she saw her a few months later at a market near the hardware store where she'd initially been spotted. One other source did claim that she was seen at a cafe in Redlands, California, with three Scientology handlers. And this story came out in 2020. So people thought it was, like, contemporaneous. They were like, oh, okay, she's fine. She's been seen in 2020. But one website tracked down that source, and this had happened sometime between 2008 and 2013. So she said that at the time, Miss Cabbage was looking, well, Shelley. But the witness added, quote, most likely this was long before the interminable nature of her isolation had set in. So the best case scenario is that Shelley Miscavige has been voluntarily living in exile and isolation near Lake Arrowhead for near nearly two decades. Worst case scenario, she's being held against her will. Or sometime between 2015 and now, she got the same treatment as her rebellious mother. [00:48:06] Speaker B: Yep. [00:48:07] Speaker A: The church can't tell us either way, because we're not supposed to know that they have weird ass compounds and re education centers and whatnot. And certainly acknowledging that they've done this would lead to further investigations of what goes on within the organization, which has already seen several scandals. Like a woman who died of a pulmonary embolism during a week long auditing session or the massive cover up of the multiple rapes committed by Danny Masterson. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not. Not Scientology specifically, but legally. Are organizations like. I'm thinking the church. I'm thinking other quasi religious, kind of culty kind of, um, you know, organizations. Are you legally allowed to keep bases of operations? Which are, why haven't the cops been there, is what I'm saying. Why? Why. Why has no one been into. Look, why are these. [00:49:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it's certainly private property. Yeah, there's. You can't, like, go in unless you have a. Just like, a cause, right? Like, there's laws about that. And certainly, you know, it's an adult woman, so, you know, there's obviously, like, is she missing or did she disappear herself? Like, that's usually, like when it comes to adults going missing, they're like, we have limited stuff we can do because, like, people are allowed to disappear if they want to. That's not illegal. [00:49:38] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Like you said, private property is a thing, right? You know, the term secret compound is another. You know, could also be just some property that we own. It's. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Right. Like, that's the thing. They pay taxes on it. [00:49:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Or don't. Because they're a church, but, like, yeah, the buildings, it's secret from us. It's secret from their parishioners. It's not a secret from, you know. Yeah, whatever. Some real estate agent sold it to them. [00:50:07] Speaker B: You know, the government up there can someone fucking well. [00:50:11] Speaker A: And they are like, they. If you try to look in, in any way, immediately people are on you instantly. They would shoot down a drone in an instant. There's no way you would be able to get something like that over it. Someone talked about when, after seeing her going and trying to take pictures of the compound, and immediately, just like, SUV's coming out of the place with armed guards in it. Like, yeah, you can't. You can't do that. [00:50:34] Speaker B: This is where. LA? [00:50:36] Speaker A: Yeah, this is near LA. It's, like, about hour and a half outside of LA. [00:50:43] Speaker B: We can't kind of go for the day, can we, when I'm over? [00:50:46] Speaker A: No, it's the other side of the country. Yeah. It's as far away from here as I am from you right now. Okay, so, no, not so much. But the Church of Scientology's best defense has always been to discredit their detractors, whether by simply disparaging them in public, by leaking secrets from their audits, and raising questions about their motives, or by taking them to court, a thing most people can't afford to contend with. As such, we may never know the truth about Shelley Miscavige, but that won't stop folks like Gerard Carmichael at last year's Golden Globes from asking where she is. [00:51:30] Speaker B: He did that publicly, did he? [00:51:31] Speaker A: He did, yeah. It went down poorly in the Hollywood crowd, but he also said miscovage. So I wondered if people just didn't know who. Like, he mispronounced it, so maybe they heard it wrong, but he got crickets for it, and it was great. It was a beautiful moment. But for the record, now David Miscavige is on the run, too, as child trafficking charges have been brought against him. Not sex. [00:51:57] Speaker B: There it is, labor trafficking. [00:52:01] Speaker A: He is allegedly hiding out at a separate complex in Clearwater, Florida. Super paranoid and a total recluse. And so to your point. This shows us that cops aren't even trying to get him. Like, we basically know where he is on this compound. They have perfectly just cause to go in there and be like, hey, you have child trafficking charges against you. Let's come get you. But they aren't doing that. But we can all take solace in the fact that he is fucking miserable and probably will be for the rest of his natural life. And I think that's beautiful. [00:52:39] Speaker B: I thought that was all beautiful. And I. I know this might sound disingenuous and that I'm taking the piss. I'm really not. I would like, as your co host and your friend, to absolutely doff my cap on a fantastic 50 minutes of content. I thought that was fucking great. [00:52:55] Speaker A: Well, thank you, my dear friend. [00:52:58] Speaker B: I mean, I enjoyed the shit out of that. Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:53:04] Speaker A: Yes, please do. [00:53:05] Speaker B: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:53:09] Speaker A: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:53:13] Speaker B: The way I whispered the word sex. Cannibal receiver. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:53:19] Speaker B: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking. [00:53:26] Speaker A: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:53:28] Speaker B: I think you feel great about it. Yes. Yes. You know the score. Friends. Jackable graves, Easter edition. He is risen. Fantastic news. You don't gotta worry about nothing. You haven't got anything to fucking worry about for. He is risen. Great news. [00:53:46] Speaker A: Risen indeed. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Ah. I fucking love knowing that. Just the. The fact that even though it's never happened since, just somebody can just rise from the grave and fucking roll the stone and fucking make themselves known again. Alleluia. Alleluia, indeed. He is risen. Right that out the way lot to get through today. So I'll just fucking dive right in, if you don't mind. On my list here, number one. Let me see. Corrie. Milk duds. The fuck are they? [00:54:19] Speaker A: Wow. We're jumping right in. Milk duds. [00:54:22] Speaker B: What are they? I've heard them mentioned recently. Don't know what the fuck they are. Milk duds? What are they? Please? [00:54:28] Speaker A: I always get them confused with one other thing, so I'm just gonna make sure I'm picturing the right one. Yeah. Okay, good. I was getting. I can't think of what. So milk duds are like caramel, like, little. They're like little balls, sort of. They're an odd shape, but they're, like, kind of, like, balls with caramel and chocolate around them. [00:54:51] Speaker B: Lovely. There we go. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. Movie theater snack. You get it in a box. [00:54:55] Speaker B: It's classic. I think you've just described poppets. [00:54:59] Speaker A: Poppets. [00:55:00] Speaker B: P o w p E t s. Poppets in a little box about. Yeah, you shake it, they'll rattle you. Poke your thumb in, open the box, pour yourself out some poppets. Again, a cinema snack. A classic movie snack. So thanks for that. [00:55:14] Speaker A: I got you. Did you have another question? [00:55:17] Speaker B: No, that was it. Thank you. More as they come to me. How are. How is everyone doing? I hope everyone's well. I hope you've had a good Easter. What is he still. What does he still look like? Not just in the Corrigan household, but in America generally? What? [00:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah, this is such a funny question because, so, like, obviously I don't have kids and I'm no longer religious, so Easter is a non holiday to me. Right. Like, there's, like, no reason to even think about it. And apparently I know that for brits it's always been a little bit more of a big deal. Like, especially just because it's like, what you structure your holiday around, like, you know, kids get like a week off or whatever for. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Kids get two weeks off. [00:56:03] Speaker A: Two weeks off, right. Yes. I've had two weeks off of my welsh class for. Because of this. It started last week for Wales. So, yeah, two weeks of not speaking Welsh and forgetting it. But so, like, you. You guys have always kind of made, like, a bigger thing of it than we did. But apparently since I was a kid, it's become a much huger thing than it used to be. When I was a kid, it would simply be, you know, my mom would hide some boiled eggs around, like, the night before we'd die, some eggs and you'd hide them around the house. Do you not do that? Wait, do you not do that? [00:56:37] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, we hide chocolate eggs around the place. Not actual boiled eggs. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Not actual boiled eggs. Okay, well, what would you do? [00:56:45] Speaker B: You need it. Would you. When you. [00:56:46] Speaker A: Yeah, you'd eat them after you put them in the. No, you put them in, like, the back in the thing again. And you put them in the fridge and eat them all week or whatever. Yeah, you dye the boiled eggs and then you hide them. You go on Easter egg hunt. Because my mother has unmedicated ADHD. Inevitably she'd forget where one was and we would eventually smell it, like two weeks later. But, yeah, we would do that. [00:57:07] Speaker B: And then, of course, actual fucking. [00:57:10] Speaker A: Yeah, this is annoying. [00:57:11] Speaker B: A lot of cholesterol. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Well, you don't eat them all at once. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just like, in the morning, you go and you have, like, a hard boiled egg that you made or whatever. Me too. Oh, it's one of my favorites. I, to this day, still just constantly have a bowl of hard boiled eggs in my fridge, whether it's Easter or not. But you then would like. You would also search for, like, your Easter basket or whatever, and your Easter basket would have candy in it, you know, usually a chocolate bunny and your little jelly beans, things like that. I have noticed over the past couple weeks that, like, all my parent friends have been doing, like, two to three weeks of Easter festivities, parties, and all this kind of stuff that I'm like, what? What's happening here? And on the screamin chat, Laura was saying that, like, yeah, it's become like, Christmas season. It's like a second Christmas. And the Easter baskets don't just have candy in them. They have, like, video games and stuffed animals and, like, real toys and shit in them. Like, your Easter basket costs, like, $60, which is. [00:58:17] Speaker B: We haven't gone back. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Insane to me. [00:58:20] Speaker B: You know, if trends or anything to go by, that's where we'll end up in five years from now. But I do want to think of it as, like, a springtime Christmas, if only for the time off and the religious connotations. I mean, work wise, we've got a lovely four day weekend. Even if I hadn't booked next week off work, I still wouldn't be working until Tuesday. So it's a nice little breather, you know, it's a nice little chance to, because nobody's got any fucking holiday left after Christmas. So the January to march is a slog when it comes to work. [00:58:53] Speaker A: So it's like, yes, here there is no holiday. Like, it's you just on Sunday, your family gets together or whatever, all that kind of stuff. But you don't get any days off work or anything like that. That's not a thing. Kids don't get the time off or anything. [00:59:07] Speaker B: Crazy shit. Crazy shit. But that cultural exchange, isn't it, Jack? [00:59:10] Speaker A: Of all I know, that's what we're here for. [00:59:13] Speaker B: Once again, delivering what for many people is, I think, is their favorite podcast. [00:59:20] Speaker A: I was gonna say, yeah, we have. [00:59:22] Speaker B: People out there who, who, for them, were their favorite podcast. Isn't that beautiful? [00:59:27] Speaker A: It's such a beautiful thing. Someone left such a nice comment. [00:59:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:31] Speaker A: About this. [00:59:32] Speaker B: I'm gonna actually shout this out because. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Yeah, please do because it was so sweet and, like, it was. [00:59:38] Speaker B: It was fantastic and it was very timely. It was something that I needed. Right? So, a good friend of mine, one of my very, very, very best and closest friends, who I love dearly, Mark Llewellyn's in a band in the UK called Delua, who are fucking, really fucking good. [00:59:50] Speaker A: They're super good. [00:59:51] Speaker B: I'm not just saying that because he's my mate. They're actually really good. They sound like. I liken them to Deftones, like, but. But really, really good deftones. And I just commented randomly on one of his threads and was replied to by a guy I'd never met before, a guy called Neil Phillips. Hello, Neil. [01:00:10] Speaker A: Never fucking hello, Neil. [01:00:11] Speaker B: I don't know who he is, but he's a listener, and I'm gonna quote his message, because I swear to fucking God, it was so perfectly timed. I needed it. Hi. Just wanted to say I'm a huge fan of the Jog podcast and never miss an episode. I've enjoyed each and every single one of the 176 currently out there. Keep up the amazing work. It's right up there for me. In fact, it's most definitely my number one favorite podcast out there. And I listened to many a podcast. Much love and respect to you and Corrie. Peace, Neil. Fucking thanks, buddy. Sincerely. Thanks. [01:00:38] Speaker A: I wonder if you drunkenly met this guy at your friend's wedding. [01:00:41] Speaker B: But I might have done. I might. [01:00:43] Speaker A: Yeah. But still, that's incredible for Neil, mate. [01:00:48] Speaker B: That's exactly how I consider you. So sincere. Thanks for that. And, hey, maybe he's not alone. Maybe you're out there right now, and you're thinking, hey, that's Neil is me. It's my favorite as well. So that's enough. That's enough of that. [01:01:03] Speaker A: Well, I just wanted to say along those lines, though. It just reminded me, like, having someone say that out of nowhere reminded me, like, we talk all the time about how bad we are at, like, promotion and things like that. And I was like, does he know we have a Facebook that, like, he can. He can be in? So, like, hey, friends, if we haven't said it in a minute, you know, there's a Facebook group. It's a private Facebook group. We are not. We're not about the collecting followers. No offense to those that do. I have friends who are in groups that, like, they are big and stuff like that. I don't want to, like, offend my other horror podcast homies, but our group is not about the numbers. We're about, like, keeping it small. And family like and all that stuff. So, hey, come join our Facebook group. And also, meanwhile, we haven't said in a while, go write us a review on your podcast apps so that more people can find us. You know, buy our merch on teepublic if you want to wear our things. I don't know. Whatever. Join our ko fi if you. If you want more content, which there is lots more right now because we are in that end of the month crunch. There's obviously, we have Kristin and my thing from a couple weeks ago. We posted new let's play last night. There will also be a snack tonight for you on the Ko fi, so we're gonna try to spread these out a little bit more next month, but those are all there for your pleasure. Also, people who subscribe to our top tier all got postcards with handwritten stories from me. A shout out to Sam, who acknowledged the inevitable hand cramp that came from me writing all of those postcards. It is really difficult to write a whole story really small on a postcard. So thank you for acknowledging that penmanship. [01:02:51] Speaker B: Is clearly a dying art. [01:02:54] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. [01:02:55] Speaker B: I go for weeks without writing anything. [01:02:58] Speaker A: You know, I was just thinking the other day I wanted to buy a notebook so that I can go back to, like, writing a little more, because I do enjoy it, but, boy, am I out of practice. [01:03:07] Speaker B: I wonder. I wonder if it's soon to become an affectation, you know, writing something, you know, like pocket watch or a fucking monocle. Yeah, or those wax mustache pricks. Oh, I hate fucking twirly mustache. Honestly. Interestingly. Or I'm wondering if there's, like, a nega kneel out there if, like, we're people's most hated. [01:03:29] Speaker A: Listen to us once. We're like, well, that's the. This is the thing that drives me crazy is that, like, there's at least one person who gave us a one star rating on Apple podcasts, but, like, like, so they hated it, but, like, not enough to, like, write. Why? [01:03:44] Speaker B: Oh, is it just a random one star drive by? [01:03:46] Speaker A: One star? There's no comment or anything like that. I'm like, who hates something so much that they rate it poorly? [01:03:53] Speaker B: Give us some feedback. [01:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Or, like, you know, just let it out. Right? Like, all those irish people on our YouTube, like, just, you know, like, isn't that the point? The point is to rage. Why would you just leave a one star review and not say anything about it? [01:04:07] Speaker B: Disappointing. Hate us better. [01:04:08] Speaker A: If you're gonna hate us, hate us better. [01:04:11] Speaker B: Cool about it. Right? So milk dads take that off. Ice. A good point on spot here. I saw a question asked on Reddit recently, which I was as soon as I saw this question. I was dying to ask you this. And I don't ask it before. It's been a lot of years, the purge. Right? [01:04:31] Speaker A: Sure. Mm hmm. [01:04:33] Speaker B: The one night a year all crime is legal. What are you gonna do with the purge? What are you. [01:04:38] Speaker A: I think you have asked me this before. I don't know if it was on the podcast or if. If it was elsewhere, but. Yeah, it's. It's break student loans. It's the banks. It's fight club. That shit. Take down the banks. That's my thing. I don't understand why everyone goes out and murders people when you can simply kill the banks. [01:04:58] Speaker B: Tough to do in one night, though. Tough to do in 24 hours. Bring down. [01:05:01] Speaker A: Well, they did it in fight club, didn't they? Like, you plan up until then, and then you execute it. I see on that night, like. Yeah, you don't have to, like, come up with the whole plan on the night of the purge, but you execute it on purge. [01:05:16] Speaker B: So you're purging for the good of all. You're purging for humanity. [01:05:18] Speaker A: Exactly. Everybody is better. Jubilee. It's all. Yeah, that's mine. What about you? [01:05:24] Speaker B: Wonderful. Oh, I'm just. [01:05:28] Speaker A: I'm gonna guess it's not for the. [01:05:29] Speaker B: Killing and killing and killing and killing. My fucking. My hands would be red up to the fucking elbow, mate. Just. I would kill and kill and kill again. [01:05:41] Speaker A: I think. You know, I think we did talk about this on here. Maybe it wasn't, but I think that my. I still have the same thought, which is that all someone would need to do is knock your glasses off, and you're like, you're done. [01:05:54] Speaker B: Nope. I would. I would. My planning for the year would be to construct a kind of a strap, a goggle of some kind, right? [01:06:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Maybe I'd wear my contact short. [01:06:06] Speaker A: Yep. [01:06:06] Speaker B: You know, I build a murderer. [01:06:09] Speaker A: Suit. [01:06:10] Speaker B: You know what I mean? I would protect myself, protect my vulnerable areas. Neck and groin and. [01:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah, why don't people send a mask, build a murder suit in the purge movies? [01:06:20] Speaker B: That's a really good point. If they spent less time on stupid fucking neon glow up, glowing masks, right? [01:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, they want to look cool, but you gotta do, like, you know, something that looks like one of those old ass, like, scuba suits from the 1940s, you know? [01:06:35] Speaker B: Yes. Chain mail is the way. Chainmail. [01:06:37] Speaker A: Precisely. You got to be strategic. [01:06:40] Speaker B: Yes. And then killing, killing, killing. Oh, God. [01:06:43] Speaker A: Who would you kill, though? Like, just random people? Um, like, see, that's my thing. It's like, target feels important to me when it comes to the purge. Like, I don't want to. Like, I don't want to kill somebody who's, like, nice, but they're out. [01:06:59] Speaker B: No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be breaking into homes. [01:07:01] Speaker A: Okay. You're just talking about, like, people who are already out there to cause mayhem. [01:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, if you take to the streets, if you've built a purge suit and you're out there in your shiny mask, you. You know, it's. It's almost like a different kind of social contract, isn't it? It's purge law, purge rules. I'd like to say. Obviously, I would aim for royalty, or I would aim for. You know. But they'd be. [01:07:23] Speaker A: But they're not gonna be out there. [01:07:25] Speaker B: No. They'd be in a purge bunker. [01:07:27] Speaker A: That is kind of like what the first movie is, though, isn't it? [01:07:30] Speaker B: Yes. [01:07:30] Speaker A: That is the politicians or whatever. [01:07:33] Speaker B: I really like the purge. I think it's a great concept, and I love the movies. I don't mean. I don't mean. Not, like, in a. Yeah, no, no, no, no. [01:07:44] Speaker A: But, yes, I do enjoy the concept as a film thing. [01:07:48] Speaker B: Good laugh. A lot of fun. A lot of fun. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Speaking of movies. Yeah? I forgot to pull up my letterbox. [01:07:58] Speaker B: So why don't you start another week without Godzilla minus one? I did read why it's been so conspicuously absent from streaming. [01:08:07] Speaker A: Gone. [01:08:08] Speaker B: Well, it's because of Godzilla Kong, isn't it? There's a. Legally. There's been legal negotiations between Touhou and Hollywood that Godzilla Kong has to have a free fucking reign of the. You know, it has to have first refusal on the hearts and minds of the Godzilla public. [01:08:30] Speaker A: So I just never get that as, like, a. Like, that seems like dumb marketing to me because I am more likely to see something when I just saw something like it and loved it, you know, like, or. And I won't go see something if I hadn't. Haven't seen the other thing that is in that universe. Like, I'm not gonna see this new movie if I've never seen the other, even if they're unrelated, I'm not gonna go see this because I haven't seen that. [01:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:55] Speaker A: Like, that's what people do. That's how people's brains work. It makes no sense to be like, no, we don't wanna saturate the market with this thing. People want. [01:09:04] Speaker B: So stupid. But it's so dumb. [01:09:06] Speaker A: We live in binge culture. You should take advantage of the fact that people are watching the other thing and get excited about it. Why don't. Why don't we rule everything is my question. I just feel like I'm better at it. [01:09:25] Speaker B: No arguments there. Absolutely no arguments there. And I feel, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if you're chasing the money, which obviously is what it's all about. [01:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:34] Speaker B: Why wouldn't more of something that people are loving and better. [01:09:38] Speaker A: What, where does this principle, this, like, this is not where scarcity applies. [01:09:44] Speaker B: No, no. Manufactured scarcity. [01:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't work that way. [01:09:51] Speaker B: Anyways, very excited. Very excited to be going to see Ghostbusters on Tuesday. [01:09:55] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [01:09:57] Speaker B: My excitement has only deepened or heightened, however you want to call it. Due to this wild disparity between the critical response and the audience response. Apparently people are lapping it up. Audience scores are huge. Everybody I know who's seen it has gone. You know what? That's a fucking solid ass Ghostbusters film. [01:10:13] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:10:15] Speaker B: And, you know, being weak at the knees for Ghostbusters like I am, all that's done is just whetted my appetite. I can't fucking wait. [01:10:22] Speaker A: So Ghostbusters is another one of those franchises, like, maybe not as much as, like, Star wars and things like that or wrestling or whatever, but one of those things where it feels like people who like it build their identity off of hating it more than anything else. And it's like, every Ghostbusters movie has been fun and they have built a personality off of deciding to hate everything because it's not the first one. And it's like, just like, just let yourself and listen. I'm sure there's plenty of valid reasons. I'm not saying anyone who didn't like this movie, it's because you've made a personality of hating Ghostbusters. But overall, this is just such a Ghostbusters fan thing to just be like, nah, I fucking hate it. It's not the first one. Like, okay, yeah, all right. [01:11:10] Speaker B: One can only speculate. I mean, I. I believe that it comes from a place of wanting to protect something that you love and something that you remember and something that you. You're so fondly, you know, like, why. [01:11:23] Speaker A: It doesn't do anything to the old one. You know what I mean? [01:11:26] Speaker B: Like, what do you protect? [01:11:28] Speaker A: We know it's like, you can still watch it. Nobody's taking it away from you. It's just such a silly, silly thing to me. I'm never mad at a remake because it's a remake. I'm mad at it if the quality is bad or whatever, but I don't know. It's just silly to me how much Ghostbusters fans stake everything on the first one's. The only good one that's ever been made. [01:11:50] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:51] Speaker A: Well, I'm gonna go ahead and enjoy all the other ones. And you can be surly. That's right. [01:11:55] Speaker B: But I'm delighted. You know, before it, before it coming out, there was kind of consensus that I've read that it had to hit like 50, 55 million to be considered a success. And it's done more than that. It's done in the sixties, which is fantastic. So hopefully there'll be more and more and more and more and more and more because Ghostbusters is the shit. Yeah. Yes, it is. I'm gonna see Tuesday with the boys, and I can't wait. So that's fantastic. Yes. Haven't watched much, though. Haven't watched much. Did we watch anything together, personally? On my own. [01:12:25] Speaker A: Well, you watched a movie without me that we were supposed to watch together. Oh, I did. And then I watched it on my own. [01:12:32] Speaker B: Now. You didn't enjoy you'll never find me, did you? I've not seen your letterbox, but I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you didn't like it. [01:12:38] Speaker A: It's australian horror. Why would I not like it? [01:12:40] Speaker B: Okay, fine. [01:12:41] Speaker A: Good, good. No, I think finally some sense. Wow. This is the version of me you have in your head is perpetually baffling to me. Mark Lewis. Good grief. [01:12:56] Speaker B: It's built on what seemed like years of us not enjoying one another's Rex. Have I made that up? [01:13:02] Speaker A: Is that revision? I totally made that up. Yeah. Like, I don't know where it came. I think we probably had, like, a month where we were, like, not in agreement about things, and that is, like, colored the entire thing. But generally, I think we, like, we're pretty good with recommending things to each other and having very similar feelings on things. There are certain types of movies that, like, you know, I don't like and I know you don't like and things like that, but I don't think this is one of them. You'll never find me australian horror, which I did not realize when I started it. And then immediately, the first time someone spoke, I was like, uh oh, we're in for a ride here in which a young woman arrives at the door of this surly man's camper during an intense rainstorm, having car trouble, I guess, and wants to be driven to a police station or somewhere or to use his phone. [01:14:04] Speaker B: A surly man who looks so, so much like a friend of mine who is also an actor that for the first kind of ten minutes of the film I was convinced it was my friend from uni, John. [01:14:19] Speaker A: Weird. [01:14:20] Speaker B: I was fucking. He's got the same beard. He's kind of bored. He's got the same kind of look. You see John Cummins in things without knowing. Without knowing who he is. I guarantee you he's a bit. He's kind of. He does a lot of theater, I believe, still. And he's. He's got some bit parts and some quite, quite major productions. He was in House of the dragon. He was in the witcher. [01:14:44] Speaker A: What's House of the Dragon? [01:14:46] Speaker B: Oh, that's. [01:14:47] Speaker A: That. [01:14:48] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna make that up. No, I haven't made that up. I've conflated it with the witcher. He was in the witcher. He was in 24. [01:14:58] Speaker A: John Cummins with a c u m m I n s. That's him. Actor. [01:15:05] Speaker B: Yes. [01:15:05] Speaker A: That guy is not the. Oh, he does look familiar now that I think about it. [01:15:10] Speaker B: Yep. [01:15:11] Speaker A: But he could also just look like the guy in the movie that we just watched. And so that could be. He was. He was in doctor who. [01:15:20] Speaker B: Yes. He's been in doctor who. Yes. [01:15:22] Speaker A: So there's that midsummer murders. My uncle's really into that. [01:15:26] Speaker B: Yes. [01:15:28] Speaker A: But anyways, thought it was him. [01:15:31] Speaker B: Wasn't him, wasn't it? So, great story, Mark. Thanks. But what we've got here. Hey, passes, my wonderful. You know, is the dialogue good? Could you see this on a stage? Yes, you absolutely could. It's one set. I did a corrigan and I guess what was going on very early. [01:15:48] Speaker A: Did you? [01:15:50] Speaker B: Yes, I did. [01:15:52] Speaker A: That's interesting. [01:15:53] Speaker B: Like, did. I had it pegged after like 25 minutes. [01:15:56] Speaker A: I'm curious because we'll have to talk about this afterwards because I'm like, I don't even know, like, what's going on is per se. If you were to ask me, like, what happened, I could not tell you that in this movie. So I'm like, you'll have to tell me what you mean by you caught it out. Because I don't know. I don't know if it has a twist in it or, like, it just felt, like, very sort of straightforward, I think. But this is like, the tension is through the roof and you'll never find me. And, like, I genuinely was sitting there, like. Like, scared watching it. And it helped that it started raining at exactly the moment I started the movie. Oh, so really good vibes. [01:16:44] Speaker B: Pissing down in this film. It's pissing down in a caravan park. So the constant, you know, rhythm of rain on the ceiling. Yeah, lightning. It's. It's super fucking moody. Kind of, you know, sturmundrang of the fucking weather outside. It's oppressive as fucking this. [01:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very claustrophobic and like. [01:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:07] Speaker A: Trapped by it. [01:17:11] Speaker B: This doesn't sound enjoyable at all, but this Giza, this fucking guy, it's. It's almost like a constant monologue. He is always monologuing just the entire fucking film. Is him talking about the nature of loneliness and memories of his past and old relationships and who he is and what he's about and his hopes and his fucking nightmares. Always talking, talking, talking at this girl, this, you know, this interloper who comes into his life, his solitary life. And why is he so secluded? Why is he so alone? You go on a little journey with him. Obviously. Initially you think, ah, weirdo, living on his own, big beard in a cabin. He's obviously some weirdo or child molester. But then you. It goes on a little journey. Is he fucking cool? Is he a good lad? [01:18:00] Speaker A: Or he being chased is. [01:18:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:04] Speaker A: Like, what's going on here? [01:18:05] Speaker B: Yeah, this is some fucking low budget, high quality good shit and high quality. [01:18:13] Speaker A: I think that's what, like, so impressive about this is that, like, it is well lit. The sound is good, the script is good. The acting is good. Everything about this is so well made. [01:18:24] Speaker B: Wonderful, high fucking quality performances. Like, theater grade performances. [01:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:29] Speaker B: Fucking really. Everyone takes it seriously. I love that. I love a fucking. To say that something takes itself seriously is often a pejorative, is often used as. [01:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't necessarily like that, but. But that I make the difference between, like, taking it seriously versus being self serious. [01:18:46] Speaker B: Yes. There you go. It's taking it seriously as opposed to taking itself seriously. There you go. There you go. And this falls in the former camp. It is a work that. That takes it seriously, takes the quality seriously. Yeah, I just. Yeah, great, great, great stuff. Really, really good. You're never gonna fucking see it. You're never gonna see it if you don't seek it out. [01:19:07] Speaker A: It is like the. The featured movie on shudder right now. So when you open shudder, you'll never find me. First thing, watch it. [01:19:13] Speaker B: Then. I withdraw my comment. I withdraw it. I am, as we know, I am an avid and voracious pirate of media. [01:19:21] Speaker A: And it's always so funny because it's. It'll be like, oh, I can't find this movie or whatever. And I'm like, it's literally on shutter, a thing you subscribe to, and you're like, oh, I never opened that. [01:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah, my first protocol is I steal things before I pay for fucking streaming services. [01:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:37] Speaker B: Hey, except Disney plus, let me tell you, I am delighted to have cancelled the fuck out of Disney. [01:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah, we cut the court even though it's like, I think our account expires in like, november. But ain't nobody paying $20 for Disney. Come on. [01:19:54] Speaker B: I ain't being price gouged by these pricks. No fucking chance. I pay for Disney annually, right? And it went up ridiculously at the same, like, hundred and five quid a year from 80 odd. Fuck you. Fuck you. Am I paying 80 quid for the Mandalorian, which I haven't even been asked to watch all of? [01:20:11] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm gonna miss a few things, but it'll be fine. [01:20:15] Speaker B: Although whilst just before, just before Disney died, I was sat with Owen looking for something to watch. And there is a tv show on Disney called Dog with a blog, right? [01:20:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I remember. Dog with a blog. [01:20:34] Speaker B: Dog with a blog. [01:20:36] Speaker A: Did you watch it or you just like the title? [01:20:38] Speaker B: Oh, fuck no. But what a great title. They obviously came up with the title and work backwards, right? [01:20:44] Speaker A: Yep. [01:20:45] Speaker B: But great title, great concept. Uh, flipped through some of the episode descriptions, and it is exactly what you might think. It's about a dog who communicates readily through current forms of media. [01:20:59] Speaker A: What a world. [01:21:00] Speaker B: A lot of fun. A lot of fun. [01:21:04] Speaker A: With the screamin chat. We watched a little movie called Rotten Tale, a little Easter theme, because it was on Joe Bob this week, last drive in on shudder, pun on cottontail. Yeah, there you go. [01:21:17] Speaker B: There you go. [01:21:17] Speaker A: Yes. This stars Cornek, who I told this story in the screamin chat. But I loved Corinne Nemek. When I was a kid. He was on a tv show called Parker Lewis can't lose. And I just thought he was so cute. And in his adult life, he ended up transitioning into, like, you know, Sci-Fi channel type stuff. [01:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember Parker Lewis can't lose. [01:21:40] Speaker A: You, do you? [01:21:41] Speaker B: Vaguely, yes. It was on. It was on sky when Sky was. Wasn't the kind of huge media behemoth it now is. Sky used to be quite a quite, you know, in the early days of cable and satellite tv in the UK, like, early to mid eighties, sky was quite niche. And if a family had sky, ooh, they were doing okay, you know, nice. [01:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:04] Speaker B: If a fat. If you. If you were to see a satellite dish on someone's house. [01:22:07] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:22:08] Speaker B: Oh, they do. And, um, Parker Lewis can't lose was on sky, who was in Park Lewis can't lose, and who has kind of made a lot of themselves. Was Cameron in it from Ferris Bueller? Was. [01:22:21] Speaker A: No. I think the thing is that it has. It's definitely playing off the Ferris Bueller vibe. And so that's why you would think that nobody in it is, like, huge. There was a guy in it who shows up, and he's like, a. That guy you'd recognize named Abraham Benruby. But, like, yeah, I don't think there's anyone who was on that who, like, you'd be like, oh, yeah, they blew up. But Cory Nemec has been working consistently, doing schlocky movies and Sci-fi channel stuff and things like that. And one time I posted something that I added him on Twitter about, probably because I was watching something on Sci-Fi channel and said something about loving Cora Nemek, and he then proceeded to go through the media tab on my twitter and all my first traps. Very nice. [01:23:09] Speaker B: Oh, that must have felt good. [01:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Little five year old me on the inside was like, oh, my gosh. [01:23:17] Speaker B: What was his name again? [01:23:18] Speaker A: Corinnemic. C o r I n n e. [01:23:21] Speaker B: M e c. He sounds like Ambassador Corrine Nevick. [01:23:26] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. That's, like, such a Sci-Fi name. [01:23:29] Speaker B: Open a channel. Yeah. Yeah. Picard it is. I, Corinne vec. A little wrinkle on his forehead. [01:23:38] Speaker A: Well, this film, for the, like, three minutes he is himself, he is still cute as a 47 year old man or whatever do you think he beat. [01:23:47] Speaker B: Off to your instagram? [01:23:49] Speaker A: Oh, okay, well, let's not get weird. [01:23:54] Speaker B: You can't categorically say that he didn't. [01:24:01] Speaker A: Oh, no. So much more wholesome, the way I was thinking about it. So rotten tail is a movie in which Cora Nemek may or may not have pleasured himself to my Instagram photos. [01:24:21] Speaker B: He did. He definitely did. [01:24:24] Speaker A: You're terrible. He's like a scientist who slowly turns into, like, the nuts actually quite quickly turns into a deformed rabbit. Oh, my God. [01:24:37] Speaker B: Mark Lewis, come back into a deformed rabbit while looking at your fucking pose. [01:24:45] Speaker A: Oh, no, no. I don't want to talk about this movie anymore. What did you want? [01:24:52] Speaker B: Oh, no, that was it. [01:24:54] Speaker A: No, no, no. Rotten tail was. It's deeply stupid, insanely gory. Like, everyone who gets killed in this just spurts fountains and fountains of blood, usually all, whoever is anywhere near. Yeah, yeah. It's all practical. [01:25:09] Speaker B: Good, good. [01:25:11] Speaker A: Maybe not. I'm sure there's, like, some, like, electricity things and stuff like that that are not practical. But, like, you know, the. The gorr is very silly. Practical gorr, very stupid. He's a very, like, sort of beetlejuice esque character in it. Mumbles to himself all the time like this, you know, like that kind of thing. Excellent. [01:25:30] Speaker B: Excellent. [01:25:32] Speaker A: And so if you like those kinds of, like, schlocky things, like, you know, big fake boobs all over the place and lots of ridiculous gore and. Oh, come on. [01:25:44] Speaker B: Mumbled, look at the rack on this girl. [01:25:50] Speaker A: Rotten tail is fun, if you like that kind of thing. I also, I watched Dog day afternoon this week. Yes. Which I think you watched, like, a month or so ago or somewhere in that vicinity. And it's been on my DVR for probably, like, two years. Like, it was so far, it was the last thing on my DVR. So that's how long ago I recorded this. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm in the mood to watch this. And it's fucking perfect. It's so good. If you've never seen Dog Day afternoon, it is based on a true story about a guy who, he and his friend hold up a bank, and as a result of sort of the hostage negotiation process, end up sort of being hailed as, like, heroes by all the people looking on outside, and they're sort of pitted against these cops who are the bad guys in this. And you're watching as, like, even the people who they have held as hostages are, like, very sympathetic towards them. And, yeah, I don't want to give anything away about it, not because it's like, oh, there's a twist or anything like that. But for me, I didn't know a ton about it going into it, and I felt like taking the journey of the movie was, like, surprising and interesting. It's funny, it's sad, it's. Oh, it's so many things. And Al Pacino is fantastic. Everybody in it is fantastic. Yeah. Watch Dog day afternoon. It is absolutely worth your time. [01:27:31] Speaker B: Younger me, de niro, adult me, Pacino, as in preference. [01:27:40] Speaker A: Uh huh. [01:27:41] Speaker B: You know, particularly now that I've seen movies like, you know, like Dog Day after, like, right. [01:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:49] Speaker B: The fucking range on that guy is unreal. Unfucking real. I'm much like you. I saw Dog Day afternoon knowing nothing about it, really. And it just blindsides you. The fucking. [01:28:02] Speaker A: Yes. [01:28:02] Speaker B: The swerve. It takes the territory that it goes into. [01:28:06] Speaker A: Yes. [01:28:07] Speaker B: Is completely unheralded by the first third of the movie. You don't, you know, when motivations get revealed and when. When you start to kind of understand a little bit more about what's actually going on in that film, it is so fucking, for the time, so progressive. [01:28:20] Speaker A: Right? [01:28:20] Speaker B: Just it, yeah, it. It uncovers a depth to it which is uncompleted, like a bolt from the blue. You just don't see it coming. And it's wonderful on every level. What a film. [01:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Definitely recommend checking that one out. [01:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:34] Speaker A: And then the only other thing that I watched was a documentary called the Truth version versus Alex Jones. However much you think you hate Alex Jones, you will hate him even more after watching the truth versus Alex Jones, which goes into the courtroom during the trials, the civil trials, with the parents of the Sandy Hook kids who basically he sicced his terrible legion of followers on to harass for a decade, claiming that their children never died and they were all actors and things like that. And so you're sitting there watching him in the courtroom, watching the parents in the courtroom. The parents are absolute fucking heroes. The way that they handled all of that for so long, so much torment at his hands and seeing him be just an absolute smug bastard the whole time. And while he's going through this trial and claiming he didn't say certain things like that, he's then leaving that courtroom, going on the air and saying the exact same things while it's going on. It's incredible. [01:29:42] Speaker B: Cost him DeeDee, didn't it? Didn't it? You have to pay a lot of money. [01:29:45] Speaker A: Right? But he still, he hasn't paid any of that much. Like Trump. Like, people like that, they will never pay, but, like, you know, wasn't really the point. But, yeah, it is infuriating. Like, that's another reason that you just hate him is that, like, he has no intention ever making good on that. So it was all circus. It was all a theater to him. But I do recommend it. It's very worth watching. The truth versus Alex Jones on Max. [01:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah. After finishing doppelganger this week, he's somebody whose name comes up more than once alongside Bannon. Steve Bannon. Yeah. Just as I came to think of those in the same way as I think of mediums or psychics. Right. There's only, there's only two possible explanations here. You either believe what you're saying, which is fucking crazy in itself, or you don't. Yes. Both of those are fucking horrific. [01:30:40] Speaker A: Right? Exactly. Yeah. And he's, he's a tough one to. Tough one to crack, because I think it's a combination of both of those things. You know, he's very good at deluding himself and wants to believe in bigger things and wants to believe that he has knowledge that other people don't have. You know, so, you know, he's misleading himself along with everyone else. Yeah, he's just a vile person that I hope in the very near future meets a long and painful end. [01:31:15] Speaker B: Are there, are there, I mean, if you think of those two guys, Bannon and Alex Jones, as architects of mis and disinformation, those who are actively actively uniting the cranks, actively trying to dismantle what we know to be true and right about the world, what, what any fucking, you know, anybody who isn't online, anybody who simply believes the evidence in their eyes and ears, knows to be the fucking fabric of an actual real, decent, whole, you know, well rounded life. Those people are actively trying to dismantle that and fill the void with, for whatever reason, their own fucking version of events. Are there any figures who are doing the opposite? Who. Who has the reach that they have? [01:32:06] Speaker A: Hmm? [01:32:07] Speaker B: Who has the power that they have to unite, right? And to try and reestablish fabric and to actually build instead of deconstruct? Where is the opposite to Bannon? Where is the opposite of Steve? [01:32:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that people like that have an advantage in is just being willing to be underhanded in their methods. And I think that is always going to be a limitation for people who are on the other end, you know, because you have to be willing to say sensational things and sometimes lie and, you know, infiltrate people's circles and, you know, be devious about stuff. In order to really get that kind of power and influence, you know, you have to speak to people's basest instincts, you know, and people who tend to be on the other side of that, like a Naomi Klein or something like that, that's not what they do. You know, that you don't want to do that. You want to believe that you can appeal to people's better natures instead of, how do I just, like, get to their hatreds and their fears and things like that and manipulate them through those things? So I think it's hard. You know, I think there's certainly, like, there are plenty of people who are famous for being good people, but I feel like there's always going to be a little bit of inefficientness, inefficiency to that because you have to be able to speak to what scares people and manipulate them. [01:33:41] Speaker B: Heal tactics. [01:33:43] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, exactly. You have to be a bit of a heel to be able to really control people. Cause that's what it is ultimately. Right? Like, it's not even just about the ideas, it's about the control and being able to, like, get people to parrot all of your talking points and things like that. You know, that's one of the things that always gets me about people who, like, really subscribe to, like, Alex Jones and Bannon and the stuff that's on Fox News or Tucker. All that stuff is, like, they have. Because of what those people tell them. They see themselves as free thinkers while simply parroting exactly what someone else told them to think. [01:34:26] Speaker B: Yep. And, you know, the cry is often, do your own research. [01:34:30] Speaker A: Right? [01:34:31] Speaker B: Do. If you look into it, your research. [01:34:34] Speaker A: Was someone told you and you decided to believe. That's not doing your own research. Like, come on, someone told you the thing you wanted to believe already, and now you just parrot that over and over again. It's just so bizarre to me that people can not make that connection in their minds. [01:34:56] Speaker B: Well, that's where we are. These are bizarre times. [01:34:59] Speaker A: These are. That's for sure. So, Marco. [01:35:04] Speaker B: Yo. [01:35:06] Speaker A: Should we chat about some assassinations? [01:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah, look. Hey, classic little bit of a Joag bookend topic here. Right? [01:35:13] Speaker A: And. [01:35:15] Speaker B: Why did I happen upon this topic? I don't know. Look, Russia has been on my mind a lot. [01:35:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And it started, I think, because I suggested a few weeks ago that we talk about whistleblowers. Yes. And I'll get into why that is after you sort of bring us through. But I think that was, like, the catalyst, as I was thinking, about the Boeing whistleblower who allegedly took his own life, and then that sort of spiraled you into another area. [01:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah. This idea of assassination in and of itself, right? The conscious act to remove an opponent of yours, a high influence, high stakes opponent, to take that fucking decision, to take him out. And it's been on my mind, obviously, because Russia has been such a massive fucking attention magnet for me lately. And the. The Marco of maybe a year ago that just found endless entertainment in the kind of the ever quickening trajectory of destruction that we all seem to be on. [01:36:23] Speaker A: Right. [01:36:25] Speaker B: Quite often, a russian foreign minister by the name of Sergey Lavrov speaks on radio four. He's the kind of go to guy who talks on Russia's behalf whenever there's a newsworthy russian story, like the death of fucking Alexey Navalny, the fucking poisonings in Salisbury the ongoing assault on Ukraine, the special military operation. It's Sergei Lavrov. Who they go to, who they get on the Today program, who they get on fucking world of one to talk about it. And he much like that iraqi foreign minister from fucking decades ago. What was his name? The fucking dude. You know, the dude. There are no tanks. There is no invasion. [01:37:07] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah. [01:37:09] Speaker B: Sergei Lavrov is a. Is just the most hilarious, funny as fuck. Just blanket lying, right? Just blanket lies. Didn't happen. What do you mean? You speak against Putin? What do you mean the election was rigged? You dare to tell us that the fair and, you know, rigorously applied democratic process, and you dare to fucking accuse us? Hilarious stuff. [01:37:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:38] Speaker B: And it. Well, it isn't, obviously, it's fucking. [01:37:41] Speaker A: But that's the same thing with, like, all the israeli politicians coming on stuff, too. Just like, nuh uh. [01:37:48] Speaker B: It is. [01:37:48] Speaker A: It is it, like, it'd be comical if it weren't, like, horrifying, horrific. [01:37:53] Speaker B: And it kind of got me wondering about assassination. I mean, what are the. What's the history of assassination? What are the best techniques used when, you know, at what point does a. Does a. Does an organization or a force or a body or a party decide? Right. This is. It's time to resort to murder. [01:38:11] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. [01:38:12] Speaker B: Incredible stuff. Did you, did you. Corporate assassination was. Was in particular something that got me thinking. After your topic suggestion of whistleblowers, it kind of makes sense, I guess the examples news easily find, you know, easily accessible information on corporate assassination is very hard to come by. [01:38:38] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. They don't, like, announce it, per se. [01:38:43] Speaker B: But talk to me about what, you know, where you went on this topic. What did you kind of come out with when it comes to assassination? Would you be interested to know about the first ever recorded victim of an assassination? [01:38:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it would. [01:38:58] Speaker B: Would you be interested to know historically. Right. The first ever recorded victim of assassination, and the records obviously are sketchy, have been lost to time, but there's general consensus that the first ever recorded victim of assassination was an egyptian pharaoh, Teti. [01:39:17] Speaker A: Okay. [01:39:18] Speaker B: Yep. Who was the king? [01:39:20] Speaker A: It would be. [01:39:21] Speaker B: It would be, wouldn't it? King of the 6th dynasty of Egypt. The pharaoh Teti had nine daughters, right. [01:39:30] Speaker A: Okay. [01:39:31] Speaker B: One of whom was called Sesh Sehet, the second was called Sesh Sehet. The third daughter was called Sesh Sehet. [01:39:42] Speaker A: George Foreman. George Foreman. [01:39:44] Speaker B: The 7th, 8th and 9th of his daughters were all called Sesh Sahet. [01:39:48] Speaker A: And it makes calling everyone to dinner a lot easier. [01:39:52] Speaker B: It does. And they added different parts of their names. To kind of identify who their mother was and so on. But he named all of his daughter Sesh. That. Interestingly, on that, there is a minor british celebrity and sportsman by the name of Emlyn Hughes. Right. For a long time, he was a co host on a british institution called a question of sport tv show on BBC, which is just a sporting quiz. Emlyn Hughes, Emily Hughes had. I think I'm right in saying, I'm gonna look this up, but he had three kids, right? Two boys and a girl. Both of the boys he called Emlin, and the daughter he called Emma Lynn. [01:40:30] Speaker A: I just found out that wanye Morris, from boys to men, did this too. He had, like, five sons. They're all named wanna Morris, and they formed a boy band called Wanmore. [01:40:41] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cool. Let me just fact check my Emily Hughes assertion here. Yeah. Two children, Emma Lynn and Emilyn. There we go. I fucking love that. Isn't it? What's all that about? Much like egyptian pharaoh Teti now, um, it is said that he was murdered by his palace bodyguards. After a plot amongst a harem of ladies that he kept. And he was succeeded by a usurper who was. Who installed himself on the throne after his assassination. So there you go. Assassination. By no means. [01:41:16] Speaker A: That's a classic, classic kind of assassination. You know, classic power play assassination and usurp. Usurpation. [01:41:23] Speaker B: Usurper y. If I were to ask you, who would you say are amongst in modern. In the modern world, globally, who would you say are some of the best assassins organizations? Who would you say? Nationality. Apart from the Russians, who might you suspect are some of the best assassins? [01:41:46] Speaker A: That's a good question. Who would be good assassins? Like Russians? [01:41:51] Speaker B: Obviously, Russians are good assassins if you don't consider anonymity. [01:41:59] Speaker A: Yeah. That we all know. [01:42:00] Speaker B: If you take that out of the. [01:42:02] Speaker A: Equation, they're great at it. [01:42:03] Speaker B: What they aren't good at is covering their tracks. Sure, yeah. [01:42:07] Speaker A: I don't know. [01:42:08] Speaker B: I'll help you out. Israel is a fantastic assassin. [01:42:10] Speaker A: Oh, well, yeah, I guess that should have been obvious, shouldn't it? [01:42:13] Speaker B: Yeah. The list of, you know, kind of Mossad assassinations is as long as your fucking arm. All, you know, all scientists, all many of them, you know, physicists, nuclear scientists, rocket scientists. An example is a guy called their own. Yes. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. [01:42:42] Speaker A: A guy called people who know too much. [01:42:43] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. A guy with the name of. I'm gonna take my time pronouncing this. Mohsen Fakrizadeh. Mohsen Fakhrizadeh. Prominent iranian scientist. He was pivotal in the iranian nuclear program. Right? And he was assassinated, incredibly. And again, consensus is difficult, but stories seem to suggest he was assassinated remotely by a satellite. Fucking guided remote machine gun. The actress from fucking space beamed commands to a remote weapon, which took him out in his car. Absolutely wild. Wild shit. [01:43:28] Speaker A: That's the kind of thing that, like, before the past, you know, six months, I would have been like, what? Bullshit. Now I'm like, oh, no. They do that shit all the time. But that is insanity. [01:43:39] Speaker B: Yep. Absolutely crazy shit. Back in the seventies, a guy by the name of Wadi Haddad, this guy was a palestinian militant. He was kind of a key figure in the popular front for the liberation of Palestine. Right? Mossad poisoned his fucking toothpaste. Poisoned his motherfucking toothpaste with a toxin they developed themselves, meaning every time this guy brushed his fucking teeth. Every time he brushed his teeth, poison was moving through his mucus membranes and poisoning him slowly. Over months. Over months. In 78, he was sent to Germany for, you know, for tests. Yasser Arafat sent to Germany for. For testing. And they pack that fucking tuba. Toothpaste in his attache case to send with him. [01:44:27] Speaker A: Wow. [01:44:28] Speaker B: It was part of his fucking, you know, part of his, you know, his. His fucking flight bag, for fuck's sake. [01:44:34] Speaker A: That's bananas. [01:44:35] Speaker B: Incredible stuff. He ended up dying of leukemia ten days after arriving in Germany for health testing. All through a slow acting poison. Fucking toothpaste. Incredible shit. [01:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like. Like Inspector Gadget stuff. Like, you know, stuff like out of a bond, maybe. Like, that doesn't exist. There's no way. [01:44:55] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it's. It's. It's that kind of close quarters assassination that fascinates me. You know? Yeah. Again, the stuff that Russia does, the. The polonium in the tea, the, you know, the door handles smeared in toxin. That kind of stuff is incredible to me. [01:45:17] Speaker A: Right. [01:45:18] Speaker B: Is it just me? [01:45:19] Speaker A: Is that. [01:45:19] Speaker B: Is that not a really fucking fascinating area? [01:45:22] Speaker A: No, it absolutely is. And I think, you know, I wasn't necessarily, like, in the ones that I was thinking about. Thinking necessarily of, like, the. The incredible ways that they do it. In fact, the. The two people that I was going to talk about are just guns. [01:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, hey, they're classics for a reason, you know? [01:45:43] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Like, I think so. There's, like, so much inerrant danger, right? Cause I was thinking about, like, whistleblowers. There's so much inherent danger in taking on giant corporations or governments. Like, is the case with, like, you know, all these people in Russia or organized crime syndicates and things like that. Like, you know, we both love mobster movies, gangster movies, things like that, you know? And one of the things kind of, to your point of, like, what's fascinating about this is, like, how much these things do play out. Like movies, right? Like, poisoning the toothpaste or whatever, things like that. And even the way people are shot, like, it's exactly what you see in a movie. And you just go, it's a movie. [01:46:27] Speaker B: Yes. [01:46:27] Speaker A: Like, that's not a thing that happens. And, you know, despite my ominous cold open today, I'm not, like, the conspiracy theorist type. I recognize, like, you know, like I said, this. This started in me from the death of the whistleblower for Boeing. And I recognize that people come under a lot of stress and can absolutely be driven to take their own lives, especially if it feels like the torment is never going to end from whatever the situation is. Like, I don't think it's insane to believe Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself, but also, there was no life ahead for that guy. So it's also not crazy to accept that he also probably did, like, either one of those things makes sense. [01:47:09] Speaker B: Do your own research. [01:47:11] Speaker A: Do your own research, man. You know? Like, it's like, yeah, very easily I could believe people had him killed. Like, look at. Look at what information he had. At the same time, it, like, you think a guy who's used to the life like he had was gonna be, like, super happy spending the rest of his life in jail where, like, people were going to attack him for being a child trafficker like you. [01:47:32] Speaker B: Right. I tend to. I use. I tend to revert back to Occam's razor when it comes to stuff like this. And the, you know, the amount of people it takes to keep a conspiracy theory under wraps. To keep a conspiracy under wraps, it. Knowing how fallible people are, unknowing, just generally what dicks people are. [01:47:54] Speaker A: Right. [01:47:54] Speaker B: I find it really difficult the stuff like that can be, you know, in the case of Epstein, it does baffle me that he was, far as I know, no charges anyway, have been brought on anyone apart from. [01:48:08] Speaker A: Right, yeah, exactly right. But she's still kicking. [01:48:15] Speaker B: This is true. [01:48:16] Speaker A: You know, that's. Yeah. If you're gonna get rid of one of them, you need to get rid of the other one. But certainly, yeah, I think obviously, a lot of very powerful people were a part of this. And I don't think, again, like, it's a conspiracy, but it's not a conspiracy theory. It's like, clearly that's the case. We know this to be true. How his life ended is, you know, is a question. But certainly, you know, the fact that they're the only people who have faced any consequences is, you know, that's power for you. But the Boeing guy, I think, got our attention because, a, it happened in the midst of all of us realizing that those planes are fucking death traps, and b, this guy has dedicated years to this process, by all accounts, was looking forward to testifying and getting it out of the way, and then decides to take his life the day he was finally going to go and do this deposition, and he'd started the deposition process, but he was about to be cross examined that day. Like I said, that's straight out of a movie, right? Like, that's not even trying to cover it up. This is like, you know, oh, just gotta get rid of that guy. So in case people don't know what I'm talking about. A couple weeks ago, a guy by the name of John Barnett was found dead of an allegedly self inflicted gunshot wound. Barnett had worked for Boeing for over three decades and retired in 2017 after having been employed for the past seven years as a quality manager at the company's plant in Charleston, where they build the 787 Dreamliner. Two years post retirement, Barnett told BBC that, quote, under pressure, workers had been deliberately fitting substandard parts to aircraft on the production line. He also raised questions about the oxygen system, saying that they were showing a failure rate of 25%, meaning one in four oxygen masks would just straight up not work in an emergency. Yeah. He said that the assembly process was being rushed and safety thereby compromised in order to get new planes built faster. And so he took Boeing to court over this and was scheduled for cross examination by his counsel, but failed to show up. He was found in the parking lot of his hotel, dead in his car. One of his lawyers said, quote, he was in very good spirits and really looking forward to putting this phase of his life behind him and moving on. We didn't see any indication he would take his own life. No one can believe it. His brother, however, said that he was suffering from PTSD and anxiety attacks as a result of being subjected to the hostile work environment at Boeing, which we believe led to his death. And that sounds like he's saying that it likely was a suicide. But he was also quoted as saying it came out of nowhere and agreed with his attorney that the timing made absolutely no sense in light of his coming vindication, an end to the stress that had been killing him. For the past seven years. Boeing, for their part, said, we are saddened by Mister Barnett's passing and our thoughts are with his family and friends, which is they just couldn't muster any fucks for that statement. [01:51:08] Speaker B: Yikes. [01:51:09] Speaker A: Just like bare minimum of that. It's. Yeah, but this isn't the first time this has happened. The other one that I wanted to talk about came from 2002 when Enron whistleblower John Cliff Baxter also died from an allegedly self inflicted gunshot wound and was found in his car with a suicide note. [01:51:29] Speaker B: Right. [01:51:30] Speaker A: Baxter had been subpoenaed to testify against Enron after complaining about what the Guardian called murky accounting methods at the company prior to his resignation. The suicide note wasn't released. And people already sort of getting into like the. This doesn't seem like an accident or doesn't seem like a suicide thing. Were like this suicide note. They're not releasing it because it must mention Enron. Eventually they did release the suicide note and Enron wasn't mentioned, which to me sounds a lot shadier. You're like, you're really gonna kill yourself from the stress of a subpoena but not mention the fuckers who drove you to it? [01:52:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? You'd wanna be. You'd rant, you know? [01:52:11] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Like, I think you would. If you were gonna take the time to write a note, you would probably mention something about that. The note is actually on Wikipedia and it's super vague. It's basically like, it's to his wife. And he is like, I've tried to do the right thing, but I can't anymore. I'm so sorry. You know, like, basically just the most generic suicide note. And it's not signed. It's like, interesting. It's like they didn't want to try to forge a signature. [01:52:39] Speaker B: That's such a half asked cover. [01:52:43] Speaker A: Right, exactly. I think this is from BBC, but I just put this paragraph in from here. So the experts found several things highly unusual. First, the peculiar ammunition. Not regular bullets, but something called rat shot. This kind of ammunition cannot be easily or readily traced back to the gun from which it was fired. [01:53:07] Speaker B: Now, having played red dead redemption. [01:53:10] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [01:53:12] Speaker B: I think I'm right in saying that. Like, rat shot, much like birdshot, is kind of a wide scattering. [01:53:19] Speaker A: That's what I always like. Yeah. What? I guess when it comes to things that are like something shot is like. You're gonna get pellets. [01:53:26] Speaker B: Yeah, little pellets, maybe. Not enough to kill a man at much of a range. Yeah. [01:53:30] Speaker A: In fact, it says yeah, it's not frequently used by people for any reason. It's not the type of ammunition one finds in guns has specific purpose. Shooting at snakes and rodents in order to get a distribution pattern of the small pellets contained within the nose portion of the bullet. It's not something that a person is likely to have and to use if they intended to kill themselves. Now, I will say Wikipedia claims that this is not true, that there's, you know, it wasn't this rat shot or whatever, but. So that's BBC versus Wikipedia on this. But other unanswered questions include mysterious wounds on one hand and unexplained shards of glass in Baxter's shirt. All reasons to look deeper, to rule out murder. And they did not investigate really at the time. They just immediately called it a suicide. They later sort of went into it and, of course, ruled that. But I find these fascinating because, of course, compared to, say, like you said, those russian ones, it's like, we know exactly who did it with this stuff. They leave a trailer. They're not concerned with us not knowing they did it. They just go, they send your Sergey what's his name to go, duh. What? No, we did. And that's about all they fucking. That's all they do. Like, they know we know, and it doesn't matter, you know, but these corporate assassinations, or potential corporate assassinations are interesting because, like, we really can't know. There's every reason why, like, these people could have from the stress of this stuff, actually taking their own lives, you know? Like, it definitely is stressful to be a whistleblower. And, you know, I can imagine the strain that it puts on people's families, on themselves. You know, people, you are getting threats from these corporations, and even from a financial standpoint like these, they're so much more powerful than you are. They could bankrupt you, take everything you have, destroy your life and everyone you love, you know? So, like, there is that degree to this, but at the same time that it's like, these things that, like I said, are so much like just a movie. Like, they're always in their car with a note, having shot themselves, left where people can find them easily. [01:55:44] Speaker B: Goodbye, crew. World on. [01:55:46] Speaker A: Like, yeah, right. As they're about to testify, it thinks that they showed no indication that they did not want to testify, that they were, like, ready to do it, get it out of the way. And then, you know, like, in the case of the guy from Boeing, like, he'd been going through this for years and it was about to end. Why, at the end of the process, would you do this? [01:56:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:07] Speaker A: You know, it doesn't really. Doesn't really add up, but we can't. We can't know that. And then the other thing about that, like you said, is that, like, they'll get away with it if they did do it, you know, because it's like they. There is no way for us to really prove that unless the person they hired to do it or something comes out and says it. Right? [01:56:31] Speaker B: Yep. [01:56:32] Speaker A: So it will always be a mystery. And the company will, you know, Sally forth doing whatever they. They do, while families and everyone like that is left to these questions about, like, it's. [01:56:47] Speaker B: It's Hollywood shit. Like you said earlier on. It is. It is. It is, you know, it is. It's crime thriller. It's gangland. It's mob shit. [01:56:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's exactly what Jack Nicholson would do in the departed. You know, it's exactly what Whitey Bolger would do. [01:57:03] Speaker B: I mean, I'll, you know, I'll wrap up on what I think is the most Hollywood fucking assassination that I've read about. Right? It's incredible. Again, back to the seventies, back to 1978, the guy called Jorge Markov. Okay? The guy was Bulgarian. He was an author and journalist, actually worked for the BBC. And on the 7 September, okay, Markov is on his way to the BBC. He's on his way through London, across Waterloo Bridge. Super fucking busy. People all around, right? He is waiting for a bus. He feels a sting on his back, on his leg, right? On the back of one of his legs. He turns around and disappearing into the crowd. Jumping into a taxi is a guy picking up with an umbrella. Jumping into a taxi. Okay. Markov gets to work at the BBC. And over the day starts to feel ill. He starts to feel pain. He notices that area at the back of his leg where he felt that impact has started to swell. He develops a fever. He goes to hospital and dies. Dies after four days. Right? On autopsy, they take a look at the leg. They take a look at this site. This kind of raised, this bump. And after loads of kind of searching and scanning, they find a pellet. Just fucking a 1.7 millimeter sized palette. Fucking tiny for comparison. A pinhead is 2 mm. [01:58:38] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. [01:58:39] Speaker B: Right? [01:58:40] Speaker A: I was thinking of it in terms of, like, your pencil lead and a mechanical pencil. [01:58:43] Speaker B: Tiny, almost microscopic, 1.7 millimeter metal pellet made of platinum. So finely engineered, it had holes in it with a cavity inside it covered in like a kind of a sugar that would dissolve when in human flesh releasing. And this is hypothesized based on his. His symptoms and the speed he died in, the way in which he died. Ricin. Oh, right. [01:59:13] Speaker A: That's right. [01:59:14] Speaker B: Which it had been determined because a similar attempt was made ten days earlier in France. Somebody had brushed up against him with a fucking umbrella spike. [01:59:26] Speaker A: Uh huh. [01:59:27] Speaker B: Containing this fucking ricin pellet which they jabbed into his leg with a fucking umbrella. Disappear. [01:59:34] Speaker A: Yeah, like that. That's, you know, that would be in a movie. And you'd be like, of course that's not a thing that you can really do. What? [01:59:43] Speaker B: Yep. Just find. And that. That. I think there it is. That is what. That is what got me fucking on. On this rabbit hole in particular. It's the science, right? [01:59:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:56] Speaker B: Orchestrated, focused, fucking skullduggery and murder in the most elaborate pantomime. Kind of theatrical, kind of orchestrated ways. You know, that's a genre of murder all, you know, in and of itself, I think no one's doing that on a personal level. No one is fighting. [02:00:15] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Because it's not like. [02:00:17] Speaker B: Yeah, no one's doing. [02:00:19] Speaker A: Or even just like a suicide, you know, a faked suicide or something like that. You know, like a person doing a regular killing is not, you know, not worried about it. And all of this has to be orchestrated by, like, multiple people in order to work. [02:00:39] Speaker B: Yes. What can I say? It's fascinating shit, friends. It's around us. It's amongst us. And this is where you'll find us. This is where you'll find Jack. Of all graves, in the weird, in the inexplicable, in the unbelievable, in the shit that you couldn't fucking believe were it not the truth. Hey, tell you what's occurred to me, huh? The anti Bannon, the anti Alex Jones. Maybe it's us and nobody. [02:01:06] Speaker A: Maybe it's us. [02:01:07] Speaker B: Maybe it's us. [02:01:08] Speaker A: Fucking hell. Well, you guys better, like, rate and review or whatever so people can find us and we can be the anti Bannon. [02:01:13] Speaker B: If you could drop a review, that would be great. [02:01:16] Speaker A: That's the first step. [02:01:17] Speaker B: A lot of fun. [02:01:20] Speaker A: Thanks, dear friends. Hey, we love you. [02:01:23] Speaker B: Yes. [02:01:24] Speaker A: And you've got one assignment for your. What do you call this? Like a half term or whatever? [02:01:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the bank holiday. [02:01:31] Speaker A: You'll make holiday. [02:01:32] Speaker B: Choose to accept it. This podcast will self destruct unless you stay spooky.