Ep. 167: sasquatches & spiritual warfare

[00:00:04] Speaker A: You a Bigfoot guy, Mark, size eleven. And you must have known I was going to say that. [00:00:12] Speaker B: Honestly, I'm not a dad. This is not how I think. [00:00:16] Speaker A: It did not occur to me that coming. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Did not see the dad joke coming. That's on me. [00:00:21] Speaker A: All right, well, but let's take the question in the spirit it was intended. Am I a Bigfoot guy? I like the idea of Bigfoot. I enjoyed. Now then, we spoke about teenage mutant hero turtles yesterday. [00:00:36] Speaker B: We did? Yes. [00:00:38] Speaker A: You, I believe, had a show called Harry and the Hendersons. Yes. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Yeah, we did. I was about to say it's a movie, but no, it was a show as well. Yeah. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Well, let me tell you something. You know what that was called over here? [00:00:48] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, what was it called? [00:00:51] Speaker A: Bigfoot and the Hendersons. [00:00:54] Speaker B: What? [00:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Why? [00:00:58] Speaker A: Well, you tell me. [00:01:00] Speaker B: They thought you were going to be confused by it. Why is that Bigfoot called Harry? [00:01:04] Speaker A: He should be called, like, you know, you had to have the sorcerer's stone and we had to have Bigfoot and the Hendersons. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. I guess that's fair. I think that's also because we're dumb and none of us know what the philosopher's stone is. [00:01:21] Speaker A: If I were to speculate now, I would say that it was a kind of a grab for viewers. I think they thought that maybe viewers would be more likely to watch a show called Bigfoot and the Henny's. Fuck me, this show's got a big. Mom, there's a Bigfoot coming up. Harry and the Hendersons. What is this? Sounds boring. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Maybe it's because. Yeah, maybe the movie didn't hit as big over. So, like, we already knew what to associate it with and they introduce it. [00:01:44] Speaker A: To you this way. [00:01:46] Speaker B: I love that. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Other versions of Bigfoot. Let me see. I quite enjoy. I enjoy the idea of a Bigfoot. I enjoy the footage of the fucking. That grainy little bit of the geezer that's clearly just a bloke walking in the woods. Dispute it. [00:02:02] Speaker B: We'll talk about that. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Other versions of Bigfoot I quite like. No, that's it. I'm nominally a Bigfoot guy. I'm not anti Bigfoot. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Okay, that's fair. Yeah. I've never been like, a huge. I've never been invested in Bigfoot. Really? [00:02:19] Speaker A: Even though it's like your cryptids in general aren't. [00:02:22] Speaker B: Yeah, like, I like cryptids. I think Bigfoot is fun as american folklore, but I think the fact that people think they're real is part of what takes the fun out of it, because of course, there are people who think like Mothman or the Jersey devil are real, but the vast majority of us, there's not really a question about it. It's just like. It's just a folk monster, and we all celebrate it as such. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Right. You're the person to ask this question. Right. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Is Bigfoot a yeti, or are they different? [00:02:54] Speaker B: They're different. We'll get to that as. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Oh, no, that's interesting, because I've always considered him to be a yeti. Yeti's okay. So yetis are like Snow bigfoot, right, exactly. And by that same token, Bigfoot is like a forest yeti. [00:03:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:11] Speaker A: What's the sasquatch? [00:03:13] Speaker B: That's a bigfoot. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Can a sasquatch also be a yeti? [00:03:18] Speaker B: No, they're two different things. [00:03:22] Speaker A: You see why they had to call it Bigfoot and the Hendersons? Because. [00:03:25] Speaker B: Right. I mean, look at all this confusion right here. [00:03:27] Speaker A: You'd watch the show, be like, what? Is he a sasquatch? Is he a yeti? I need this spell out for me. [00:03:34] Speaker B: That's a really good point. Well, we've figured it out, and this makes sense in a sense, because, like I said, the sasquatch, bigfoot, all that is american folklore, even though there are other versions of it in other places. This is specifically ours. And, of course, finds its start in indigenous lore. But we will get to that as well. But, yeah, this sort of, like, parsing of evidence about the existence of Bigfoot and all that, that never super interested me before. But I'm actually going to talk about just that today. I want to chat with you about sasquatch science. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Cool. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yes. And, I don't know, after this, maybe you'll find yourself a Bigfoot believer. A sasquatch sand. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Look, put it like this. I'm more ready to open my mind to Bigfoot than I am like, jesus. You know what I mean? [00:04:38] Speaker B: You could fair, actually, you could produce. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Some scat for me or like, a clump of hair on a twig on a branch, and maybe some scent, some musk that doesn't conform to other animal kind of patterns, and I'd be open to. All right. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Right, yeah. Bigfoot agnostic. [00:04:58] Speaker A: That's beautifully put. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Can't remember if we've mentioned this before, but do you have in the UK, like, cute little songs about scat? [00:05:09] Speaker A: Well, obviously there's Scatman. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Not like that. Not what he's talking about. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Different kind of scat. What? Shit song. Shit rhymes. [00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, but specifically, like scat. For some reason, this is very common in the United States. When I took outdoor education, we learned a scat song. Scat makes the world go round. The forest can't survive. It's not on the ground. So when I step in a lump of scat, I jump for joy, tell myself that's where it's at. [00:05:43] Speaker A: We're rocking and rolling. [00:05:44] Speaker B: We are. I've mentioned this to other people, and they're like, oh, I didn't learn that one, but I learned a different song about scat. And then they'll sing their scat song. I don't know why we love to sing about scat here. [00:05:57] Speaker A: Well, obviously, there's a song where I was walking down the lane and I felt a sudden pain, diarrhea. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Is that a song? Well, sure. Yeah. No, we had that one for sure. But, like, that word. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Finish that song. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Animal. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Do you remember me talking about how every school has the same version of the my little pony song, but they finish it differently? Finish that song for me. You're walking down the lane, you felt a sudden pain, diarrhea over to you. [00:06:19] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't remember. But in fact, Anna, our dear pal Anna, posted. She had found in a book in the library, someone had printed out their version of that song, and it was in the book, and it had, like, after diarrhea, it had some sort of other refrain that definitely was not in the version that I'd learned. I was like, I think the verses are about ripe. There's, like, an extra line in here. What would be next in yours? [00:06:46] Speaker A: Well, again, depending on where you come from, depending on who you ask, it either came from your bum, like a bullet from a gun. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:55] Speaker A: Which is lazy. Now, I think about it rhyming the n with the m. It doesn't quite. [00:06:59] Speaker B: We also don't really use the word bum here. [00:07:02] Speaker A: No, you don't do. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah, probably not that. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Or I think it could come from your ass, like a bullet through the grass, which is interesting because I think bullets, but I don't necessarily think of shooting it through. [00:07:16] Speaker B: No greenery. But I guess you're a kid making this up. You're not necessarily thinking about the actual physics or where you would be shooting. [00:07:27] Speaker A: A. Yeah, the artillery, the kind of the ordinance of it. [00:07:32] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Here we go. These are only memetics she had in her diarrhea song. Here, Anna, you love diarrhea as part of this. So, for example, the first verse of this, when you're riding in a sleigh and you hear something spray when you're climbing up a mountain and your butt becomes a fountain. When you're driving in your car and your house is just too far, when your stomach is in pain and it's making chocolate rain, you love really good diarrhea. [00:08:07] Speaker A: Really good. Really good. Yeah. [00:08:09] Speaker B: This is a pretty creative. [00:08:11] Speaker A: It makes the world turn around. [00:08:13] Speaker B: Exactly that. So I think we've all learned something here today. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Too much. [00:08:18] Speaker B: Too much. Anyways, so let's start talking about what Bigfoot allegedly is. All right, so the word sasquatch that you brought up comes from the salish indian word sasket, which means something along the lines of hairy wild man. Indigenous tradition, particularly of the Steelus tribe in British Columbia, tells of this tall, hairy man beast and has for generations. Norwegian author Louise M. Gillock al explained that in indigenous folklore, quote, the sight of the powerful sasquatch was apt to cause soul loss, sickness, unconsciousness, or upset stomach. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Just the sight of him. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess. [00:09:02] Speaker A: So hard, you lose your soul. [00:09:04] Speaker B: Right? It's like, oh, you might get an upset tummy, or you might lose your soul. Those are, like, very different stakes out your frackle. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Your soul escapes through your fucking diarrhea. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. The stalice people don't think of Bigfoot as a bad guy, though. They actually see him as a sign of good luck if you come across one. And they even have sasquatch on, like, their tribal flag. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Have I also heard him referred to as a mountain man, or am I making that up? [00:09:35] Speaker B: Mountain man. I don't know if I've heard that. That didn't come up in any of the things that I read today. [00:09:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:40] Speaker B: But I won't rule out that that is a thing that. [00:09:43] Speaker A: No, no. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Other cultures also have various sasquatch type creatures in their lore, including, of course, the yeti, or abominable snowman of the Himalayas, and less well known, but with an incredibly perfect name, the Yowie man. Can you guess where that one's from? Because it feels very on brand once you know the Yowie man. [00:10:06] Speaker A: As in Yowiey. Sorry, you have to help me out. [00:10:11] Speaker B: That one's australian. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Yeah, the big, hairy cant. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:10:22] Speaker A: From the mountains. [00:10:25] Speaker B: Can you give us a. [00:10:26] Speaker A: At your soil? Your soil. Yeah. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Sorry. That was good. But the first time we see white Americans getting into the lore is in 1882 in the Daily colonist newspaper out of Vancouver, British Columbia. That story put forth that someone had actually captured a squatch, which is a big claim. And obviously, we have not one person. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Alone captured the fucking capture squatch and. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Then told the paper about it. [00:11:00] Speaker A: Where is he now? Oh, he got away right before you turned up. All right. [00:11:04] Speaker B: He's out there with your oak island tablet or whatever. Can we see him? No, can't see him. Bigfoot really hit the big time, though, in 1958, when giant footprints were discovered in Bluff Creek, California, by a man named Ray Wallace. And just right out the gate, I'm going to tell you, his children eventually revealed that the prints were a prank. Once Wallace died, he had used, like, big wooden footprints to make know, as. [00:11:32] Speaker A: You were saying, that I was picturing exactly that on stick. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. A big wooden. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Or, like, stilts. A stilt of some kind with a fake foot on. [00:11:41] Speaker B: But it wasn't until 2002 that they revealed this. And the sasquatch had been out of the bag way too long to put it back just because of a little old hoax. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Now, the basic structure of the legendary cryptid, according to national Geographic, is something like this. It's about 8ft tall, weighs. What are you laughing at? [00:12:01] Speaker A: Sorry, please continue. [00:12:05] Speaker B: It's about 8ft tall, weighs around 800 pounds, and has feet twice the size of a human's, which you have feet twice the size of mine. When I think of that, I'm like, that's not that big. Guess it's not talking about humans like me, but it walks upright and has shaggy hair. It's nocturnal, it's obviously quite shy, and it lives off of fruit and berries. These latter traits obviously serve to explain why we don't really encounter them. They don't want to be encountered. They come out at night and they're not vying for meat with us. Otherwise they'd probably be snagging our livestock or leaving animal corpses around. That would pretty quickly alert us to their existence. [00:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So this has led me to wonder, see, what I know of Bigfoot is that it's just one guy. That it's just the one of them. [00:13:02] Speaker B: Oh, no, it's not one guy. So that's an important thing. This came up. I didn't talk about this in here, but this did come up in one of the many sources. Honestly, I got almost to Northwest passage level in my research ching of Bigfoot today. But one of the articles that I read was talking about that, like, inherently, if there is a thing, a creature like this that exists, there have to be more of them, which is one of the things that causes trouble. When you think about stuff like the loch ness monster or big butter, things like that. If there's only one, it has to be deeply old, which is pretty much impossible. And so if Bigfoot exists. There have to be pods of bigfoots or whatever. Yeah. So it's not just one dude. I like bigfoots. Personally, I prefer Bigfoots, actually. [00:14:06] Speaker A: There must be somebody out there called big hyphen foot. There's got to be a man out there, Mr. Bigfoot. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Some of the last names of people that I came across in this research were pretty out there, so I'm sure there must be someone like that. [00:14:18] Speaker A: I'm going to get them on the cast. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah. While most folks associate Bigfoot with the Pacific Northwest and Canada, there are Bigfoot legends all over the United States. Texas, Wisconsin, Ohio, Arkansas, et cetera, et cetera. Lots of big Feet's mans. And since the Bigfoot craze took off in the 1950s, thousands of people have dedicated themselves to researching the cryptid, and there have been over 10,000 sightings over the past 50 years, albeit with zero photos or videos captured or so quick. Wow, they're so fucking quick, these big feet. Yeah, they're fast. Guys. What are you going to do? But that's not entirely true if you believe the few images that do exist. But that's complicated. Obviously, in 1967, we get the most famous and most parodied evidence of all, the Patterson Gimlin film. And I'm sure you could describe to me exactly what it is without my having to show you. Right. So the Patterson Gimlin film. [00:15:18] Speaker A: The Patterson Gimlin film is just a series of maybe only, like, 30, 40 frames long, black and white, grainy as shit. [00:15:28] Speaker B: It's actually not black and white. This was corrected in something that. [00:15:33] Speaker A: I'm taking it for the Zapruder film. [00:15:36] Speaker B: I am. [00:15:37] Speaker A: I really am. [00:15:39] Speaker B: There's a couple hundred frames in the Zapruder film. [00:15:43] Speaker A: So you're looking kind of in the distance amid some trees, and you've got this big, shaggy bastard. And he's walking, and he's kind of obscured past some trees, and he kind of takes a little look back, and then he's gone. [00:15:55] Speaker B: That's the very one. And I'm sure all of you listening to this right now knew exactly which one I was talking about as well. The footage of the alleged Bigfoot walking in some brush and then turning mid stride to look at the folks filming it. [00:16:08] Speaker A: Millions of podcasts every single week. This is the only one that conflated the Pruder film with the Bigfoot. [00:16:16] Speaker B: I think it's safe to say that. Yeah, safe to say. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Once again, folks, that's why you listen. [00:16:22] Speaker B: This is, like, one of my favorite clips from my old podcast, electric fan cave was when we had Sarah Benning Casa on, who's an author and writer for shows and stuff like that. And she was saying something about training her dog. Right? And kristen was, oh, yeah. Like, you need, like, Caesar Chavez to help you with training your dog. And we were both, you know, Caesar Chavez, he comes to your house and he fixes your dog. She was talking about Caesar Milan, the dog whisperer. Not the famous. [00:16:58] Speaker A: I don't know who either of these people are, by the way. [00:17:00] Speaker B: Okay, fair enough. Caesar Chavez was. Caesar Chavez was a famous labor, a mexican labor rights activist in the middle of the 20th century. Not a man who trains your dog. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Fucking cockapoo. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Anyways, all that to say, this film also happened to be recorded at Bluff Creek, which is pretty convenient considering the first Bluff Creek evidence was actually a hoax. So it's really lucky that they saw a real Bigfoot there where the other one had been. Very lucky. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Very, very lucky. [00:17:43] Speaker B: This is still considered super compelling evidence for a lot of Bigfoot believers, though, like Idaho State University professor Dr. Jeff Meldrum, who talked to NPR about his book Sasquatch legend meets science. And I should note that he doesn't like the term believers because that implies a lack of evidence. [00:18:03] Speaker A: Well, that was a question I was going to ask, actually, because there are actual passionate Loch ness believers. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Surely to fuck. No one with a straight face is hunting for these guys. Are you kidding? Looking for. No, I'm not a huge thing. [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yes, I'll get to that as well. No, it's not a bit at. In fact, like, there are various researchers, like Jeff Meldrum, who comes up in pretty much anything that you read about people trying to legitimize the search for Bigfoot, fucking other scientists and things like that. In his field, he is known for being extremely rigorous and good at what he does, but what other scientists criticize about him is like, he does not apply the same scientific rigor to his research on Bigfoot and is more likely to sort, know, accept lesser evidence than he would in the rest of his work. [00:19:06] Speaker A: That absolutely blows my mind. Firstly, surely America is quite well mapped. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it know. Sure. Yeah. I mean, to believe in any of this, you obviously have to think that they're quite stealthy in some way or other. They've got somewhere that they're borrowing or whatever. There are people who genuinely believe that they can turn invisible and that's why we've never seen them. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Predator. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They're pretty much the predator. People have all kinds of theories as for why we don't actually see them, most being that they're just in very isolated places. But, yeah, some people are like, yeah, it's because they turn invisible when there's people around, so that's why we don't see them. I don't think Meldrum is amongst the people who think that that's the case. I think he thinks they're well hidden. There's folks who think that they're like extraterrestrial, all kinds of stuff like that. So there's like kind of varying degrees of kookery when it comes to the whole Sasquatch thing. But he believes that there's plenty of evidence that sasquatches do exist. And the Patterson gimlin film is just one example to him. Going frame by frame of the video and zooming in should dispel our convictions that it's a man in a gorilla suit. As you can see, the musculature in the body as it moves, a thing you wouldn't see from a bulky suit. Further, the feet and the footprints associated with the incident are convincing a thing he swears costumers have never been able to pull off saying costume feet look like Bozo the clown for a Discovery Channel show. He went to Stanford University, where they did a motion and gait analysis on the film and also brought in an actor to imitate the posture of the squatch. He says that the actor could do it, but after considerable coaching. But the clear difference was, of course, that he wasn't 7ft tall. So checkmate skeptics. [00:21:15] Speaker A: Well, I'm convinced, yeah. [00:21:17] Speaker B: I mean, what more could you ask? [00:21:18] Speaker A: One me right round, mate. [00:21:20] Speaker B: But that's exactly the kind of thing that his critics are talking about. Again, he's apparently very good in his field, but the idea that he's dismissing that it could be an actor because, oh, we had to coach him a lot to do that gate. Well, yeah, if you're trying to get anyone to walk like another person, put. [00:21:38] Speaker A: A bit of time into it, wouldn't you? [00:21:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not natural. Like, I couldn't walk like you. It's not a natural thing that we do. It would take a lot of coaching to get me to imitate your walk. [00:21:52] Speaker A: But you could. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah, like theora, if you spent enough time with me, teaching me your know. [00:21:59] Speaker A: Like Daniel Day Lewis could fucking do it, you know what? You know, fucking Patty Constadine. With enough work, he could do me. [00:22:09] Speaker B: I would love to see Patty Constadine as you. That would absolutely tickle me. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Well, he's actually when I ask somebody, who would you want to play you in the film of your life? I always ask them that in two parts, you've got the Mega budget Hollywood version or the film four version. [00:22:26] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:27] Speaker A: I don't have an answer for the mega budget version, but the film four version is Paddy Constantine. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Okay. I like that. I feel good about that. I think in any of them, it's probably just like, scary spice for me. [00:22:41] Speaker A: I'll come back to you on that. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll come back to it. But anyway. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Oh, Willow Nightingale. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Oh, well, obviously. Is that. What did you call it? Channel four or whatever? [00:22:54] Speaker A: The Hollywood version? That's the Hollywood. [00:22:55] Speaker B: Oh, that's the Hollywood version. Okay. [00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Very nice. All right. Anyways, costumer Philip Morris told author Greg long that he had, in fact, sewed the gorilla suit by hand in his basement. And Roger Patterson, for whom the Patterson gimlin tape is half named, had purchased that suit for $435, which is like a shit ton of money for shits and giggles in 1967. Even now, that's a lot of money to spend on a prank. But go big or go home, I guess. And it paid off, obviously, that they became famous for this. But these gorilla suits were a hot ticket item for Morris because of a popular carnival trick in which, quote, a woman morphed into a crazed gorilla and sent patrons screaming from fair tents. I love that. That's hilarious that that was such a common bit. This guy was constantly making gorilla suits just absolutely perfect. And Morris said that when asked how to make it more realistic, he advised using a stick to extend the arms, brushing the fur to cover the zipper, and wearing football pads to make the shoulders bigger, which is all exactly how it looks in the video. The sticks in the arms explain why the lower part of the arms are so stiff in the still frame. We've all seen, and it does look like someone wearing football shoulder pads. [00:24:16] Speaker A: I would even call balls on his claim that, oh, you wouldn't be able to see musculature if it was a suit. Fuck off. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Again, predator. He looks muscly as fuck. And that's a suit. [00:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. I mean, again, it's him not really applying the same rigor to this as he would in another situation does not. [00:24:34] Speaker A: Pass the predator test. [00:24:35] Speaker B: Right. It doesn't pass the predator test. That should be the official Bigfoot test, the bar. And it's like, I think you know how I've talked before about how it's really easy to talk yourself into a suspension of disbelief, like, I don't believe in ghosts but if I go to a haunted house, I can suspend that disbelief and have experiences or whatever. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Sure. [00:24:56] Speaker B: And it's like, if I subjected those experiences to the same rigor that I subject other people's claims or things like that. Certainly it'd be like there's an explanation for that or whatever. But when you really want to believe something, you kind of suspend all the stuff that you would use as that rigorous approach. [00:25:17] Speaker A: It's what is always said about science fee religion, isn't it? Science doesn't claim that it knows how the fucking world began. Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. It's open to all but rigorously tested ideas. [00:25:32] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Surely we can now rule out Bigfoot, right? [00:25:36] Speaker B: Well, but that is the thing about science, right, is that ultimately, you can't prove something doesn't exist. But the thing about science is, what's important is, can you prove to me that it's. That you can never fully prove there's no such thing as Bigfoot, but you can say there's no compelling evidence for that. So Morris never heard from Patterson again after the call, asking how to make it more realistic. But years later, he saw the footage while he was watching tv with his family and recognized that this was a suit that he had provided. And what I think is just kind of charming about this guy is that because he associated this with this carnival trick, he kind of looked at it like a magic trick. Like an illusion. [00:26:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:23] Speaker B: And so instead of coming out and being like, hey, I made that. He was like, I just looked at it as a magic trick, and I didn't want to expose it. So he just kept it to himself till decades later that, like, oh, by the way, I made. So a man named Bob Hieronymus also claims that he's actually the guy in the suit and that Bob Gimlin told them they needed someone to wear it for a film they were making. Obviously, he had no idea. Their plan was to fool the whole world with fake squatch footage and needing to make a buck. He was like, sure, why not? Can you imagine? They give you, like, a Honda to dress in a suit, and then later on, that becomes the most famous Bigfoot evidence in the world. [00:27:08] Speaker A: You are forever in the cultural footprint of the world. Forever more, right? [00:27:14] Speaker B: And sure enough, several of his relatives all confirmed that he had told them about this at the time. This wasn't like a later revision. Like, hey, that was me. They knew he had done this weird shoot where he dressed up as a gorilla or whatever. [00:27:27] Speaker A: What validation for that man's. Craft, though. [00:27:29] Speaker B: I know, right? [00:27:30] Speaker A: You know what I mean? At how fucking good you are. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't remember which thing specifically, but he has made costumes and masks and stuff for some very famous movies with excellent practical effects and stuff like that. So you've seen his work before as well. He went on to do a lot of. I don't think it was predator, but maybe they should have called on him. Although I'm like, was it predator? I'm going to have to look that up again afterwards. I'm like, maybe. Wait, was that one of the ones? There was at least one horror in there. But anyways. Yet in spite of all of that, Bigfoot believers still think the tape is real. Meldrum insists, quote, for him to suggest that is just wishful thinking on his part. Everyone in the film industry wishes they can do something as compelling as the Patterson film, but no one has. And Bigfoot researcher Lauren Coleman protests. Morris's costumes are fine for circuses, fine for movies, but the hair doesn't lie down in the same way as the hair shown in the Patterson. Bigfoot on the live, you know, take that as you will. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Good God. Even in the face of the bloke. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Who made it, two people who were involved in it separate from one another, didn't know each other, said the exact same things about mean. But regardless of who you believe on the Patterson gimlin flick, it's not only evidence that big researchers. It's not only evidence that Bigfoot researchers look to back up the existence of Bigfoot. Amongst the central forms of evidence they look for are, of course, Bigfoot prints, but also bits of scat. Scat actually didn't come up, I think, because it's just they clearly have never found anything like that. So it's hair and feet is pretty much what they go for. Inexplicably, huge footprints have been found in many places, and researchers go to great lengths to examine them and determine to whom they could belong. Take police investigator Jimmy Chilcott, who has examined more than 150 casts of alleged Bigfoot prints. He doesn't think they're all winners, but he points to a 1987 print taken in Walla Walla, Washington, as the one that's made him a true believer of the print. He said, quote, the ridge flow pattern and the texture was completely different from anything I've ever seen. It certainly wasn't human. And of no known primate that I've examined, the print ridges flowed lengthwise along the foot, unlike human prints, which flow across the texture of the ridges, was about twice the thickness of a human, which indicated that this animal has a real thick skin. For meldrum, it's a print from Gifford Pinshow National Forest, taken in 2000 and known as the scucum cast. That stands as the clearest evidence. The impression was apparently made by something laying down to retrieve some fruit. And thus you can see forearm impressions along with a thigh, its butt, an achilles, and a heel. [00:30:38] Speaker A: I'd like to see that print. [00:30:40] Speaker B: I would. Yeah. None of these had photos of any of these. And Meldrum keeps, like, he has the footprint library. He's got, like, 200 big footprints. I'm sure there's somewhere you can probably see them, but in all of the articles that I read, there was never a picture of any of this. And that one definitely. I might expect, wouldn't you? [00:30:59] Speaker A: You'd expect. [00:30:59] Speaker B: That's what they are. Yeah, they're big cats. There you go. Of the footprints, not photos. Yeah. So Meljam explained that the print is 40% to 50% bigger than a normal human foot. And that, quote, the anatomy doesn't jive with any known animal. And if there's any scientific principle, I trust, it's jive. [00:31:20] Speaker A: Vibes, mate. [00:31:21] Speaker B: Vibes, dude. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:24] Speaker B: Now, when it comes to hair samples, research has largely shown them to be from regular ass animals like elk, dogs, horses, elk. [00:31:32] Speaker A: They have hooves, for fuck's sake. [00:31:35] Speaker B: It's hair. It's hair, not print. [00:31:37] Speaker A: Okay, that's it. You're surrounded by elk hoof prints. [00:31:43] Speaker B: It's a bigfoot. Yeah. All those animals. Or they were inconclusive. [00:31:50] Speaker A: That's the one. [00:31:50] Speaker B: Which doesn't mean. Well, then it must be bigfoot. Theoretically, if there is such thing as a sasquatch, it would probably be very similar in dna to humans, like other primates are. So let's say we found a hair that we couldn't identify. If the sequence looked a whole lot like the human genome, but like something was amiss, we could be like, wait, this is something related to us, but not us is this bigfoot? That hasn't happened. In one case, what was thought to be a yeti turned out to be something we didn't recognize. But that was similar to an ancient, extinct form of polar bear. So what we can glean from that is either there is some sort of polar bear we haven't encountered yet, or that himalayan bears bred with polar bears somewhere along the lines, or that this hair is super old and belonged to ancient, extinct polar bear, which is not likely because the hairs tend to break down. So it's probably one of the first two. But whatever the case, it's not a yeti, by the way. While there have been many allegedly scientific studies done by Bigfoot researchers and published in dubious journals, the first peer reviewed study of biological Bigfoot samples occurred in the 2010s. According to Science magazine, it was a joint effort between researchers at Oxford, right in your neighborhood, and at the Museum of Zoology in Losan, Switzerland. They asked for people to submit hair samples from anomalous primates and received 57 hairs from all over the world in response. Many of those hairs, it turned out, weren't hairs, which would explain why they seemed anomalous. They were largely plant or glass fibers, just sending them like some grass, like, this is bigfoot. Some of the hairs were also either too old or had been handled too much to be useful. They were able to sequence 30 of the hairs, and every single one matched rna sequences for known species such as bears, cows, raccoons, and even a porcupine. Still, Bigfoot believers carry on undaunted by these setbacks, and bigfoot continues to be big business. As Smithsonian magazine pointed out, there continued to be numerous films, including many cutesy animated ones about Bigfoot. Animal Planet somehow got away with airing eleven seasons of a show called finding Bigfoot in which they did not, in fact, find Bigfoot. Fucking eleven seasons. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Well, look, somebody must have been watching it, right? [00:34:25] Speaker B: It's the same thing with that Oak island mystery show that I mentioned when you were talking about that. Like, how is this still on? They're not finding anything. Why does this exist? But even the reason that I decided to talk about this was because this month for book club, we read Max Brooks's devolution, which is about a posse of squatches. And as I was researching this, I found out there's a Riley Keough led film currently playing at Sundance called Sasquatch Sunset. And I need to read to you the headline of one of the articles about it, by the way, because it's incredible. It reads Sasquatch sunset, the pooping, pissing Bigfoots that are disturbing Sundance. And under it, it continues. The divisive film, which features a family of divisive features a family of Sasquatch, and an impressive buffet of their bodily fluids is causing walkouts at screenings. While some critics think it's brilliant. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I can imagine. Divisive as in one person liked it, right? [00:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. But whether spreading various bodily secretions all over the place or simply hanging out quietly in the woods away from our sight, we are a culture obsessed with Bigfoot. According to paleontologist Darren Nashwell, there's nothing even remotely close to compelling evidence. Quote, interest in the existence of the creature is at an all time high. Even Jane Goodall, world famous primatologist, believes in the existence of Bigfoot. [00:35:53] Speaker A: Oh, fuck off. Does she? [00:35:55] Speaker B: She does, yes. And you'd figure anyone, pity anyone, was going to see one by now, you would think it would be her. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Bigfoot's in the mist. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Bigfoot's in the mist. 11% of Americans believe firmly that Bigfoot exists. And I'd just like it to add a weird fact to that statistic. 31% of people who were surveyed who reported using YouTube daily believe in Bigfoot. So 11% of the american population, but 31% if they watch too much YouTube, feels like there's a cautionary tale in there somewhere about gullibility and YouTube use. [00:36:35] Speaker A: This bombshell about Jane Goodall has rocked me to my. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Sorry. It's, you know, it's true. [00:36:44] Speaker A: We did a bit about her in know and the fucking amazing work she does and continues to do. [00:36:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like a million and she's still out there doing it. Are you googling it like you don't believe me? [00:36:59] Speaker A: I need to see this for myself. [00:37:00] Speaker B: There is an audio clip on NPR of her talking about mean. And she's not like a Bigfoot researcher or anything like that. She just simply thinks it exists. She was like, I'm a romantic. I like to think that this is a thing that exists and I'm not ruling it. [00:37:19] Speaker A: Well. Well, Jane Goodall of all. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Yep. Right. I'll give it to her. She can have this. She's done a lot of good things. She can have Bigfoot. But, yeah, it's hard to say exactly why this shy, hairy species of dubious existence so captures our imaginations. But you know what? Good for Bigfoot. Keep on keeping on, big guy. [00:37:40] Speaker A: I only hope that if he is out there, he's aware of what they call him in Australia. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Yowie. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:37:55] Speaker B: Yes, please do. [00:37:57] Speaker A: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, misel Sen. [00:38:00] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said misel Sen in such a horny way before. [00:38:04] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex. Cannibal received. [00:38:07] Speaker B: Worst comes to worst. Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:38:11] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm going to leg it. [00:38:17] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:38:19] Speaker A: I think you feel great about it. Listen, welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Jackable Graves, the podcast for bad bitches. That's what this podcast is. [00:38:30] Speaker B: I had no idea that was where that was going. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Neither did I. Neither did I. Bad bitches only, please. Whether you know it or not, your act of hitting play on this week's jackal graves moxiot is a bad bitch. So go out into the world in that fucking spirit. Take this week and fucking wreck it like the bad bitch. Jo Aglisner, you are. [00:38:52] Speaker B: Amen. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Welcome, Corrigan. How are you doing? You all right? [00:38:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm doing pretty know. I think I said last week, yeah, my sister's here. I was trying to remember if she was in fact here last week or was on her way. You can see her bed behind me. So hanging with the CIS and going on lots of walks together, we said we're going to check in about New Year's resolutions and all that kind of stuff as we go along over the course of the year. And listen, amongst my resolutions, of course, not drinking in 2024, crushing it, killing that game, no problem. Walking at least a mile every day. It is the coldest part of the year right now. It is so goddamn cold. And listen, I don't live in upstate New York or Chicago or anything like that, so I'm complaining about it being 19 degrees out. When there are places it's like negative 40, but it is very cold. And I feel really proud of myself for the discipline of literally every single day, putting on all my layers and going out there and walking in the snow and the ice, the whipping winds at my face and all of that kind of stuff. [00:40:10] Speaker A: Well, it's as tough as it's going to be all year now, isn't it? [00:40:12] Speaker B: From here, right until it gets really hot. That's how I thought I was going. [00:40:18] Speaker A: To be a week in April where it's going to be real nice. [00:40:21] Speaker B: It'll be good for most of, basically from March to July, and then it's going to be horrible. But, yeah, I was thinking the plus side about a New Year's resolution is you're starting at literally the worst time of year, so anything that you're doing isn't it is going to get better the rest of the year if you think about it. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Good. You've shared with me some of your photos on your walks, with your beaming red cheeks. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Yes, it's lovely, isn't it? Yeah, it's an issue, but I'm enjoying it. What about you? How are you doing? [00:41:02] Speaker A: Listen, fucking. What do you want me to say? I'm doing all right. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Fair enough. [00:41:07] Speaker A: What the fuck. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Fair enough. Yeah, I'll take that. [00:41:12] Speaker A: You know what I mean? The fuck? I'm okay. Shit. Listen, let's talk about disappointment for a second, shall we? [00:41:20] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Hit me. [00:41:23] Speaker A: You'll know where this is going as soon as I go down this path. But we're two episodes into the new season of True Detective, right? [00:41:33] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:34] Speaker A: And there's a lot to like about it. Jodie Foster is, as always, setting. It's drawing heavily on a big old bag, a big old clutch bag of horror influences. Where's its horror credentials? On its sleeve? Or it's doing its best to get over, to use pro wrestling parlance to the horror fans, right, in ways that it hasn't done since season one. So imagine my disappointment. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Imagine. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Honestly, I made that noise, in fact, because it airs in the States on a Sunday night, so we get it on a Monday here. So it's first thing on a Monday morning. I'll put on true detective. And so fucking disgruntled to see that in the background of shots they're using, clearly not even attempted to. Not even very good. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, they didn't touch it up or anything like that. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Nothing AI generated set dressing. [00:42:43] Speaker B: AI, how did you notice this, though? Because the shot that you posted, once I zoomed in, I was like, oh, okay. But I did not notice it at all. Did you just catch that while watching? [00:42:56] Speaker A: It leapt off the fucking screen at me. It was the first thing I noticed. Literally. I've got an eye for kind of quirky bits in the background of screens. Anyway, I'm always looking around the frame for fun bits. And in the first episode, there was a VHS copy of the thing on a shelf. Right, I see. Okay, you're trying to appeal to me. All right, a bit craven, but fine, I'll allow. Know. The scene had only been on, like, a second or two. And I looked at these posters on the wall. I was like, oh, Jesus. Absolutely fucking dreadful. It's a conversation with some guy and he's got, like, generic concert posters in the back of his room. And they are the worst. Shoddily fucking knocked up Dolly. Fucking quality metal generic concert poster hit enter Fakhead. Print it out. That'll do. It is disgusting. Disgusting. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Oh, go ahead. [00:43:56] Speaker A: That. A high end fucking program like that, they can afford fucking Billie Eilish on the fucking soundtrack, right? They can afford Billie Eilish on the opening credits, but they can't afford to pay a fucking designer to knock up a poster for the background of a. [00:44:14] Speaker B: Even just fix the one that they made in AI. I've complained about this, but that's one of the problems with being a creative right now, is what they want to do is make things with AI and then hire you for cheaper to fix the thing. They fucked up with AI. And it's wild to me. If you look at this poster for one, one of the posters just generically says metal in a sort of metal font, like a. A sort of generic metallica metal. And then the dates on it say, like, may 34, and then it says seconds, seconds. And it's like they must have noticed that they did not just get someone to quickly jump into Photoshop and fix it. That's insane how lazy that is for a production like that. [00:45:13] Speaker A: That's not entirely the bit that sticks in my fucking throat, because it does, obviously, it's lazy as fuck and it's penny pinching and corner cutting, and it's vile. But what really gets me is they won't even notice that. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Seeking. No one is going to look at that. [00:45:35] Speaker A: For all of this show's lofty pretensions, it condescends now to think that they won't notice just a metal post in the back. No one's really paying attention. So why the fuck should I then, right? [00:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah. It really devalues the entire job of the person who deepens it. [00:45:59] Speaker A: If the creatives air quotes involved in putting that fucking scene together care so little about what they are putting on fucking screen, then why the fuck should I be invested in their work, right? And I can hear a pushback from, look, it's such a small thing. Why are you so worried about it, Mark? Fuck, get over it, Mark. Just enjoy the show, Marco. The show about the snow and the Jodie Foster's in it and the murders. All right? No, bollocks. Because I expect more, right? I expect more. I know that, AI, it's huge already and it's only going to get huger. But if that's the fucking effort, people who are producing drama, like I said, has lofty high end pretensions. If that's what you fucking think of me as a viewer, if that's what you think I am ready to accept, then you can go fuck yourself. [00:47:00] Speaker B: I think that's fully fair. Also, I feel like you need to look on TikTok and see if someone has pointed this out yet. Otherwise you need to name and shame there, because I feel like if they realize people have caught on and this is all over social media, it's going to be like the Game of Thrones Craft Services cup. [00:47:21] Speaker A: Indeed. I've only seen, like two or three posts on blue sky about it. I don't ever, ever check x anymore. [00:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe over there, everyone's talking about it. I don't know. [00:47:34] Speaker A: I would like to see this made right. I would like to see this made right. [00:47:39] Speaker B: You deserve that. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Well, I think we deserve that, right? Because if we don't, it's only going to carry on happening well, right. [00:47:48] Speaker B: I mean, I think that's at the heart of it too, right? Is the more we let them get away with stuff like this, the more they do it and the more it validates that. See, the customer really can't tell that we're doing this, so why should we hire people to do these jobs? The consumer has no idea we're using it, so it's fine. And we don't want to validate that. [00:48:10] Speaker A: The only way of making this right, I would expect the showrunners to acknowledge and apologize, and I would expect any streamer, any streaming version of that show to be fucking removed and corrected. [00:48:21] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, exactly. Like the Game of Thrones coffee. [00:48:25] Speaker A: Exactly. It's HBO, isn't it? You know what I mean? That needs to be acknowledged, and it needs to be fucking fixed, and it needs to stop because it is horseshit. It is Bigfoot scat. That's what that is. [00:48:37] Speaker B: It is Bigfoot scat for sure. Although the funny thing about this conversation is, even though that makes me livid, I'm now like, maybe I'll watch true detective. You know that I've never really watched it, but first season, and then. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Don't bother with the middle. [00:48:51] Speaker B: Well, I tried the first season. I did not like it. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Of course you didn't. Did. [00:48:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And the problem is Jodie Foster is a great actress. However, I have a hard time watching her because she's also, like, the biggest proponent of Mel Gibson. And so that know gives me deep pause about watching things with, yeah, she, like, his whole comeback was basically from her. She, like, orchestrated the whole thing and kind of was like, if I can accept him into, like, shouldn't you? And cast him in his first movie back in the spotlight again. The Beaver. She directed that one and was like, specifically was like, yeah, we're doing the Mel restoration tour. So that's why I always struggle with Jodie Foster things. But I am kind of interested in it nonetheless. [00:49:41] Speaker A: Not looking good for true detective, let me tell you that. [00:49:45] Speaker B: Right. A lot of hits here, but we'll. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Have some bullshit to say about zoomers. Yeah, there you go. [00:49:55] Speaker B: They don't want to work. [00:49:57] Speaker A: That's exactly. For all we know, it could be her behind the fucking AI posters, right? [00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah. She personally was like, just knock that up and put it up there. Yeah, that did not help. My image of her. Her complaining about Gen Z and their poor grammar in emails and shit. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Can you read it? Then you're fine. I don't have any time for that. But regardless, I don't know. We'll see. Maybe I'll watch it after this. [00:50:23] Speaker A: I'm delighted to have had the space to get that out. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, I'm glad to have given you that space. In other news. Hey. Had book club this past weekend, like I just referenced, and it was a wonderful kickoff to the year. Very strong showing. Lots of great people, great conversation. We can manage to have deep conversations, even on a book about bigfoots. So it was a really good time. It is open to everyone. So if you want to join in for next month, the schedule is on jackovallgraves.com book club. So many good books that we're going to be reading. I think behind her eyes is the book that we're reading for February, which was made into a Netflix miniseries. I think maybe a movie, one of those. But check it out and then join us. The discord link is up there, and it's a grand old time. [00:51:14] Speaker A: And let's not forget, of course, this weekend is watch along weekend. [00:51:18] Speaker B: It's watch along weekend. [00:51:23] Speaker A: It's comfort horror. We've had some lovely suggestions on Facebook and a couple of head scratches as well. I'm not going to lie. Let me see. David. Big Alec. I hope I'm pronouncing your surname right. Big alkay. Big Alec. I don't know. Tremor's fine. Great jaws, obviously. [00:51:43] Speaker B: Yep. [00:51:43] Speaker A: Tucker and Dale versus evil. Comfy as fuck. Scream like a blanket for those who like it. [00:51:49] Speaker B: You like scream? Shut up. But anyways. Yeah. Mandy, I don't like. That's discomfort. R right there. There is not one moment of Mandy that is comfortable. [00:52:06] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Dr. Stephen Root, evil dead. Listen, I agree. All of it is. All of it. I'd like to know which entry in particular gives you the comfort. For me, Evil Dead 2013 is a zillion percent one of my comfort movies. [00:52:22] Speaker B: That's a weird one to give. Again, comfort is a weird word for a movie that you often describe as mean spirited. [00:52:32] Speaker A: It's horrible. It's such a nasty, nasty movie, but it provides me with. I get glee from it. I never get tired of it. [00:52:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:52:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I get you I never get bored of it. I can't understand why people don't see how funny it is. Right? The one girl is cutting her arm off with the electric knife, with the cookery knife. And she turns around and there's this lovely beat where she speaks in her normal pre dead eye voice. I feel much better now. And then there's a spunk as her fucking arm finally drops off and hits the floor. And I'm like, that is just, wow. Beautiful. [00:53:13] Speaker B: I feel like that there's different kind of horror viewers, and some of us definitely get giddy the more unhinged, the violences and others who do not see it that way. [00:53:25] Speaker A: It's just that funk of the flesh in the wood. It's almost like a rim shot after a joke, right? Beautiful, beautiful stuff. Ruthie also gives us the stand, the 1994 miniseries of the stand with Gary sinise. [00:53:41] Speaker B: That'd be a full day watch along, but I love that as a thing. [00:53:46] Speaker A: So listen, this week there were a. [00:53:49] Speaker B: Couple more on the feed, but that's okay. You'll throw them up into a poll and we'll work with that. [00:53:57] Speaker A: Or are you going to polls now? [00:53:59] Speaker B: I think you can do polls in Facebook. So unfortunately, it won't be as open as when we used to do them on Twitter. But I'm pretty sure in the group you can do a poll. [00:54:10] Speaker A: Yes. Okay. Well, that will come at some point during the week, and it'd be lovely to see as many of you there as possible. [00:54:16] Speaker B: Saturday the 27 January. 20 and 24. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Yes. Let's get comfortable together. But in the meantime, that came across as weird. I didn't mean it to. [00:54:27] Speaker B: Or did you? Depends on whether you liked it or not. If you liked it. He meant it. Just that weird. [00:54:33] Speaker A: No, don't worry. Unless. [00:54:38] Speaker B: So have you watched anything lately? [00:54:42] Speaker A: All right. Actually, I've not committed a lot of time to the movies this week, but the ones I have watched have been of note. Right, okay, so let me just deal with Wonka first, if I may. [00:54:57] Speaker B: Please do. Oh, man. The joys of having children. The movies you see. [00:55:01] Speaker A: Well, I was interested in seeing Wonka myself. I wanted to see Wonka myself because I'm a big. Who isn't a fan of Paddington two, right. [00:55:11] Speaker B: Oh, obviously. Come on. That's like a huge red flag if you don't like Paddington two. [00:55:17] Speaker A: Oh, definitely. Because it's so much better than it goes so far above and beyond what Paddington two should be on paper, right. It is a movie of genuine, genuine heart. Just fuck me when Aunt Lucy turns up at the end of Paddington two. If you don't have a fucking damn eye or a lump in your throat. [00:55:45] Speaker B: You are fuck off. [00:55:47] Speaker A: Same for me. It was an involuntary sob because I didn't see it coming. Right. Because one of the big running jokes of Paddington is. Yeah, no, they're in darkest Peru. It's cool. We all think they're, you know, like when your dog got sent to the farm. [00:56:04] Speaker B: Right, exactly. [00:56:05] Speaker A: Or you came home from school one day and your dad said he'd given the terrapins back to the pet shop, but you've long suspected, right up until now, that he'd just flushed them down the fucking toilet. [00:56:14] Speaker B: Is that autobiographical? [00:56:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I had terrapins, right? And they stank like a motherfucker. God, these fucking terrapins were smelly. And I was cleaning them out. I was cleaning them out every couple of days, but they stank. And one day I got home from school and the terrapins were gone and dad said he'd taken them back to the pet shop and I swallowed it at the time. But many is the time as an adult. I've reflected on that and I've not confronted him about it, but I don't think he took him back to the pet shop. But these are living terrapins. These were living animals. And I don't know what the fuck he did with them. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Maybe he just let them go. He just, like, walked out somewhere, go. [00:56:52] Speaker A: On a councillor estate in fucking South Wales. Let them go where, Corey? Where would they have gone? [00:56:59] Speaker B: I don't know. I'm just trying to imagine. He didn't flush your turtles. Anyway. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Paddington two. Right? Now, Wonka has none of that. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Why did you think it was going to be like Paddington two? [00:57:17] Speaker A: Because I'm sure I've read, like, a comparison between the two. I'm sure somebody's told, yeah, it's kind of got Paddington two vibes and. What was I talking about? Where? Yes, like, guardians of the Galaxy three feels to me like sentiment. By committee group managed and execs have given notes on it and it's been fucking written and rewritten and they've tried to weaponize it to do what that other film did. That's where it feels like wonkers. Fuck what it feels like. That's what wonkers. It's doing its best. It's doing its best to recreate that wonderful alchemy of Paddington two and falling utterly flat in every way. Firstly, there's no sense of place to the film at all. Right? It is all on a fucking green screen. [00:58:12] Speaker B: It's all on a. Oh, I hate that so much. [00:58:15] Speaker A: Nothing rings true about the geography and the physicality and the presence of that film. It has nothing to it. It's ones and zeros, right? It's bits and bytes. There's fuck all real about this film. Okay? That's strike one. I hate that. Yeah, and look, all right, maybe it was a Covid thing. I don't know how long it's been in production. [00:58:37] Speaker B: I mean, at this point, they've been making movies for, like, three years, post Covid. So I don't think we can give anything benefit of the doubt at this point. I think we're past that. [00:58:47] Speaker A: Half of the cast of Paddington two show up in this film. Olivia Coleman is in it. Was she in Paddington two? No, I don't think she was. [00:58:54] Speaker B: Who am I thinking of? [00:58:55] Speaker A: The geezer from. He was in ghosts. The british Simon Farnaby. [00:59:02] Speaker B: He's in. Yes, that's right. [00:59:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And playing a similar role to the role he plays in fucking know. Oh, Wonka's mother. Oh, she's gone. And she promised him that she would come back. [00:59:16] Speaker B: Oh, no, come on, say it ain't so. [00:59:19] Speaker A: I'm fucking serious. I'm absolutely fucking. It plagiarizes other roble Dahl works, even though he had fuck all to do with wonker, of course. But you know the wonderful, fantastic Mr. Fox? Yes. [00:59:34] Speaker B: I've actually never seen or read that. I don't like stop motion, so I avoided the fantastic. [00:59:41] Speaker A: Oh, read it then. Just read the book. You'll do it in an hour and a half. It's a piece of paper. [00:59:44] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a nice thing about those rolled. [00:59:47] Speaker A: Books, but fantastic Mr. Fox has three adversaries, you see, the evil farmers, boggis, Bunsen, Bean, each of whom are responsible for a different kind of produce. And Mr. Fox makes kind of runs and tunneling under their farm, and he nicks a juicy turkey, and he nicks some of their cider to feed his family. And it's wholesome and it's brilliant, and it's this battle of wits between Mr. Fox and these three absolute bastards. Oh, fuck. Wonka is up against three rival chocolate manufacturers. Fuck me, man. It is derivative as shit. [01:00:24] Speaker B: I feel like you could make that work if it was like, oh, we've got, like, a rolled doll cinematic universe within here. And they're all working, which is what they're going for. [01:00:34] Speaker A: The title card at the beginning is like, roll doll stories. [01:00:38] Speaker B: Okay? So they are attempting that. It just didn't work. [01:00:41] Speaker A: It just did not work. All it comes across is the people making this film are looking at other popular properties and going, right, we'll have a bit of that, and we'll have a bit of that, and we'll take these cast members from these films which did what we want to do, and that'll be great. And we'll put some songs in, and it'll be bright and Gordy, and none of it will have any sense of know, physicality or tangible realness. And in the middle of it all, we're going to hang all of this on fucking Timothy Chalamet. We're going to put it all on him. This fucking Zephyr of fuck all. [01:01:18] Speaker B: I'm sorry, but I love that you kept the french part of his name that he doesn't use anymore. But you anglicized the last name that he does use the french part for. [01:01:31] Speaker A: Yes. And the next time I say his name, I'll do it completely. [01:01:33] Speaker B: We'll see what happens. [01:01:34] Speaker A: But you knew who I meant. [01:01:36] Speaker B: I did, yes. Go on. [01:01:37] Speaker A: If you can read it, then it doesn't fucking matter. Jodie Foster. So, yes. [01:01:48] Speaker B: I'm assuming he's terrible. What gets me. And this also came after seeing the marvels. I saw the marvels. And then I saw, like, a commercial for Wonka, like, the day after. [01:01:59] Speaker A: I just paused you there, because I was going to finish off that. [01:02:02] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. [01:02:02] Speaker A: Go ahead, bang it with a zinger. [01:02:04] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, hit me with a zinger. [01:02:05] Speaker A: Right? Hey, it wants to be sweet, but it's just sweet and low. Nice. [01:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I like it. [01:02:13] Speaker A: Come on. [01:02:14] Speaker B: You guys have sweet and low. [01:02:15] Speaker A: No, but I know you do. You see? [01:02:17] Speaker B: Oh, it was even, like, Pacific American. That was good. [01:02:21] Speaker A: And that just came to me. Just fucking came to me. I'm really fucking good at this. [01:02:26] Speaker B: You are. You should. Do. [01:02:33] Speaker A: You. [01:02:34] Speaker B: But I can't follow that. No, but what I was going to say is that. So I saw the marvels, and then the next day, a trailer for Wonka where it was like, the first time you hear the singing from it. And in both those cases, doesn't Brie Larson sing in that comic book movie Scott Pilgrim? Right. [01:02:58] Speaker A: Oh, she might do. I've not seen it in ages, but I love it. [01:03:01] Speaker B: I hate Scott Pilgrim. But I think she sings in that. [01:03:04] Speaker A: But I love it to. [01:03:06] Speaker B: But, like, I think she can sing, but for some reason, in the marvels, they auto tune the shit out of her so that it does not sound like a human voice at all anymore. What's happening here? And it feels like that's become kind of a style now which, like I said when I was complaining about pop music today, I was saying that too. Like they auto tuned the shit out of everything. But Wonka, when I listened to that too, I was like, I don't know whether Timote can sing or not, but in that ad, they certainly auto tuned him so hard that it sounds like he can't carry a tune. Like they had to fix the shit out of him. Nothing was salvageable. [01:03:47] Speaker A: And is there maybe a line to be drawn here with what I was just banging on about with true detective? Is it just a kind of a fuck it. That's what they expect. That's what they'll get, right? [01:03:58] Speaker B: Is this our fault? Is this our own expectations that lead them to do these kinds of things? Because we've proven that we don't give a shit. I don't know, whatever. I'm not blaming us for this. Get it together, Hollywood. [01:04:14] Speaker A: Yeah, quite right. Quite right. I'm not blaming us for this, but. [01:04:18] Speaker B: What else have you watched? [01:04:20] Speaker A: Right? So two films that I've seen before, but neither of which I've seen before, if you know what I'm saying. [01:04:27] Speaker B: Oh, okay, I got you. [01:04:29] Speaker A: Afflicted. Does the name rubber. [01:04:31] Speaker B: I don't think I've seen that, no. [01:04:33] Speaker A: Now, I watched this in the pre letterbox days, apparently when I banged it in letterbox. Oh, you've seen this film before? In 2000 and fucking. [01:04:41] Speaker B: So it came from your handwritten notes? [01:04:43] Speaker A: Exactly, yeah. This was back when I was banging fucking movies on notepad, which I love, by the way. Right? I get a lot of personal kind of satisfaction from the fact that I was letterboxing for fucking ten years before. [01:04:56] Speaker B: Letterboxing. [01:04:57] Speaker A: Fucking scene. Very proud of that. Afflicted. So what if chronicle. But vampires. [01:05:06] Speaker B: Okay, interesting. [01:05:07] Speaker A: There's your fucking gimmick. Right? Two best friends who are actual IRL best friends, right? The filmmakers are just childhood buddies in real life. And it absolutely comes across in the movie. There's a real sense of connection and closeness between them. And they're kind of obnoxious but harmless kind of amateur filmmakers, right? One of the guys has a very rare kind of cluster of badly misformed blood vessels in his brain, and apparently he's on borrowed time and at any point his brain could plop. So he decides he and his best mate are going to go on a once in a lifetime round the world trip, and they're going to document it all. It's found footage. [01:05:55] Speaker B: Nice. [01:05:56] Speaker A: Okay. But they handle the gimmick really well. They spell it out really clearly. That this one guy. I'm going to be wearing this camera all the time. You're going to wear that all? Yes, I'm going to wear this camera all the time. You're going to wear that all the time. And for the first kind of 2020, 5 minutes of the film, it's them going around Europe and Italy and Spain and France, and they try to hook up with girls and they go to clubs and they ride around in silly little fucking mopeds and whatever stuff that you would do as a tourist in Europe. But our guy with the fucking brain problem takes a girl back to his apartment and she vampires him. [01:06:35] Speaker B: I hate when that happens. [01:06:37] Speaker A: Yes, he gets vampired, and they won. Oh, shit, has your embolism popped? Do we need to get you home? Are you going to die? And he develops powers, and they're testing his powers out Ala Chronicle. Btws. I love Chronicle. I think it's a brilliant, brilliant, great, brilliant movie. [01:06:58] Speaker B: Fuck Max Landis, but Chronicle is amazing. [01:07:00] Speaker A: Oh, fuck him sky high, obviously, into the sun, but Chronicle is great. And this has a lot of the same story. Beats the two of them kind of try and push at the edges of his new strength and his, know, super speed and holy shit, you're a no no until he starts to fucking get the thirst. And there are some, the thirst. [01:07:27] Speaker B: You're such an intense man, Mark Lewis. I love it. [01:07:29] Speaker A: I like a vampire. I like vampires. [01:07:31] Speaker B: I know you do. Yeah. [01:07:33] Speaker A: I wish I was one. Okay, well, if you really want to know. [01:07:39] Speaker B: I don't think you'd get to enjoy, like, the only vice you'd get to enjoy would be the drinking of blood and I guess, like the sex or whatever, things like that. But you'd have to give up a lot of the other things that you like. [01:07:52] Speaker A: Yes. I'd drink you. You'd be my forever friend then. [01:07:55] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. [01:07:57] Speaker A: I'd be straight over there. I'd have a good old slurp. And we would. [01:08:01] Speaker B: I appreciate that. Yeah. [01:08:03] Speaker A: And we would roam the world just. [01:08:04] Speaker B: Vampiring, just vampire beefs, vampire BFF. Yes. [01:08:08] Speaker A: And he tries every method to kind of sake this new fucking hunger. He drinks dog blood, pig blood, breaks into a blood. [01:08:16] Speaker B: Inevitable. Trying to avoid killing people. [01:08:20] Speaker A: And, oh, God, there are some first class scares. [01:08:24] Speaker B: Okay, don't tell me any of them. This sounds interesting. I'm into. [01:08:29] Speaker A: It's really fucking good. It's really good. A super satisfying ending. A super satisfying kind of, whoa. Afflicted is a banger, mate. And I think you'd love it. Actually, now that I've said that I've almost guaranteed that you won't. [01:08:46] Speaker B: You always say that, but I like most things that you recommend. It's just occasionally, and I think you do know, when you recommended Skinner Marink, you did it knowing full well I was going to hate it. But you acted like I would like it. But most of the time, you generally know what I like. Yeah, that's going to be every time you do recommend something that I end up hating. Skinner. Me. You son of a bitch. You skin a marinkin. Son of a bitch. [01:09:16] Speaker A: So that was great. And I went back to when evil looks. [01:09:22] Speaker B: Yes, an excellent flick. [01:09:29] Speaker A: Even that sells it short. It's fucking brilliant. [01:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:40] Speaker A: I remembered none of it. Like none of it. I was amazed at how absolutely none of that film. [01:09:50] Speaker B: We talked about it at length, too. [01:09:53] Speaker A: Me, Corey, that's wild. I remember none of that. I must have been blagging it, mate, because I remembered none of it. [01:09:59] Speaker B: Incredible. Well, I am jealous. You got to see it for the first time, a second time. [01:10:06] Speaker A: Right. I had my Airpods in as well, because I wanted a fucking. Right, let's give this fucking film its due and let's go right in. And just the gimmick. In just this argentinian village where possession is almost like a public health issue. They've got procedures in place to deal with it. They've got fucking kids tell stories about it. They've got rhymes, for fuck's sake. [01:10:32] Speaker B: Right? [01:10:32] Speaker A: What do you say? What's the rhyme when there's a rotten. You know what I mean? It's folding the vile and the horrible into everyday life. Beautiful gimmick. But I only realized this time around that it's the same fellow who made. Terrified. [01:10:54] Speaker B: Terrified, yeah, exactly. Which is fantastic. [01:10:59] Speaker A: Yes. The guy is on a hell of a trajectory. [01:11:01] Speaker B: Holy shit, he's already. Yeah, that's the thing you want to see. Like the director who made this incredible film doesn't end know blom camping and know puts out a second huge banger. [01:11:15] Speaker A: Away from Hollywood, my friend. Stay the fuck away. Keep doing what you're doing and keep growing the way you're growing. Because holy shit, if terrified, if that led to any of the looks, the mind boggles at what you can achieve next. The nihilistic, bleak fucking hopelessness of this film. It is. Talk about a nasty piece of work. Yes, right. [01:11:39] Speaker B: It does not give a fuck about you and your feelings. [01:11:42] Speaker A: No, sir. I don't know if you remember it as well, me only having seen it a few days ago. Right. But they even talk about why demons can't quite handle autistic, right? What a cool little bit of law. [01:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [01:12:03] Speaker A: They're susceptible. They're as susceptible to possession as anyone else, but they can't quite work their fucking minds out. [01:12:09] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. I love that. [01:12:10] Speaker A: I love that. I love that. Give me a big old chubber so it. Give me a big old. [01:12:17] Speaker B: I could watch you, as you were saying that, deciding whether or not you wanted to or not. [01:12:22] Speaker A: Do you see my process? [01:12:23] Speaker B: And as such, I wasn't sure which word was going to come out. And I don't think you knew either. It's going to mean erection, but as I consider whether I want to say it, I don't know which word for it. I'm going to say. [01:12:38] Speaker A: Wonderful. All practical gore. Or if it wasn't all practical gore. You hit the CG well enough that it fucking looked like it. Axes to the face. Fucking a dog bites a kid in the head when you don't see it coming. I'd like to make the noise that I made then. There are people upstairs. I vocalize involuntarily when that dog bit that girl's head. [01:13:06] Speaker B: I think it was during that that I sent you the sound that I made. [01:13:15] Speaker A: Just like I said earlier on. But evil Dead two, the punctuation, that little kind of brim laugh when the arm hits the floor. There's no. [01:13:23] Speaker B: Not that kind of thing. [01:13:24] Speaker A: No, it just pours misery, bad vibes, graphic fucking misery on you. Yes, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful movie. [01:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's great. Definitely recommend wine. Evil lurks. I mean, if you haven't watched it by now, what are you even doing? [01:13:43] Speaker A: You got it, man. It's such a thrill to see a classic when it's a fresh classic. And that's what that is. It's fucking wonderful. [01:13:55] Speaker B: Agreed. [01:13:55] Speaker A: What about you? What about you? What about you? [01:13:57] Speaker B: I did not watch a whole lot this week, partly because my sister's here. I also had. [01:14:02] Speaker A: Does she like the horror, your sister? [01:14:04] Speaker B: Not really. She'll tolerate it for me or for my mom, but it's not her thing. She scares easy. She grosses out easy. It's not her bag. But yeah, since she was here, I haven't been watching a whole lot of movies or anything like that. But we did get out and go see the Iron Claw because my sister and I have been watching wrestling together for the know, three years or. Yeah. And so we were like, there's a wrestling movie. It's got some AEWS people in it. Like, let's go see this. [01:14:40] Speaker A: Sure. I read that MJF got pretty much. Entirely cut. [01:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah, almost entirely. Yeah. You can tell it's him because, you know, MJF's ass. So his ass gets more screen time than his face does. And you're like, that booty? Come on. I could pick that out of a lineup any day of the week. But you only see his face for, like, a second. Like, I didn't even catch it. Kia was like, it's MJF. I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. You say a couple. [01:15:07] Speaker A: Who else is in it, then? Who else would I know? [01:15:10] Speaker B: I'm trying to think of, actually, there was one that I wanted to look at. Yeah, I thought so. Ryan Nemeth is in it. But this is, like, a weird thing that happens throughout the whole movie where they don't really show anyone's faces who isn't the Von Eriks. And so you see Ryan Nemeth a couple times in it, and he's wearing, like, a black wig. And so I was like, I think that's. And, like, he has, like, a speaking role, but they never show his full face head on, which is very weird. It's an OD choice. Like, throughout this whole film, you really don't get, like, a full face of anyone who is not in the main family, which is very weird. Yeah. I was looking forward to the Iron Claw because people said it was really good. I don't like biopics. [01:16:02] Speaker A: They're dry. They're very dry. [01:16:04] Speaker B: And the thing about biopics that bothers me and is very much heavily in this is that in the effort to tell a true story, they tend to tell, not show. And so this super suffers from that where it's like they're constantly in dialogue, explaining to us things instead of just letting us watch a movie play out some of very standard beats. Like, okay, we meet the quirky, wonderful woman that. What's the main? The one who's not dead's name. [01:16:39] Speaker A: Carrie van Eric. [01:16:41] Speaker B: No, Carrie's dead. Whatever the lead one is, the one who's played by Zac Efron. Like, when he meets his wife, it's like this dialogue is just chopped from every biopic that has ever existed of your sort of manic, pixie, dream girl type meeting. She calls him by his first and last name, like, well, so and so, von Eric. I think you're, you know, that kind of thing where you're just like, okay, I get it. This is the biopic shortcut for this is a good, you know, she's a keeper or whatever. And their relationship kind know, develops more or less off screen, and then they're getting married and all this kind of stuff, and various things happen. So obviously, I don't think it's a spoiler. It's a biopic. Like, every one of the brothers, except for Zac Efron, dies, and they weirdly don't let us see the process. So it's like things, uh, in one scene, they're kind of all sitting together, like shooting up steroids, and then another scene, you see this brother throwing up blood, and then it's like a next scene he died in. Then there's all this stuff happening and Carrie's doing great and all that. He's like, on top of then, you know, all of a sudden he gets in an accident, loses his foot, and then all of a sudden he's in some sort of downward spiral that we have not seen happen. But we just have to trust somewhere off screen he has been in some sort of drug field haze. And then he dies. And you're like, what's happening here? [01:18:23] Speaker A: Does it assume familiarity? [01:18:25] Speaker B: I think that's the problem biopics have, is that they kind of have this assumption. It's like somewhere between assuming you know the story and so they don't want to leave anything out that would make you go, that's not what happened, or whatever, but they're also over explaining it as if you have no familiarity with the story, and they want to get it all right. And as such, it's just people constantly telling you what happened. But I want to see a movie. I could just read this. These people need to act like humans and not constantly describe the plot to me as if I missed an episode of the know. So I don't, didn't. I think Zac Efron's great in it. The other brothers aren't given a ton to do except sort of just be there and know. And like I said, it's shot very the. I don't know who made it, actually, but I think here's what's the real kicker for this. You know me, I have a hair trigger for tears, tv shows and movies. I will cry instantly if someone even kind of looks sort of sad in it. And I watched a whole family die in this movie without crying. [01:19:40] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, enough sad. Okay. It did not connect. [01:19:43] Speaker B: It did not connect at all. You really don't get attached to these characters at all. The only time I cried, my sister was like, this was such a bitch move. At the very end of it, you see Zac Efron cry, and, like, me and Keo and Ed were all just like, you can't end a movie on a man crying, so we all have to walk into the lobby just sobbing. What kind of move is that? That's some asshole shit. But, yeah. So ironclaw. I don't know. It's fine. I don't recommend it. It's just kind of like. It's a throwaway biopic. Like any other biopic is headlocks out of five. Yeah. There we go. I like that. Or two iron claws. She looks a lot like the dark order thing. It does until the grab happens. But anyways, the other thing that I thought worth mentioning is that the second season of surreal estate is back on Hulu, and that is, like, good times supernatural vibes that I absolutely love, like, monster of the know, which is one of my favorite kinds of tv show. I love, like, when they start employing a big arc and things, I tend to lose interest. But when you're talking x files, supernatural, any of these kinds of shows, I love a monster of the week. [01:21:06] Speaker A: That was the great thing that fringe did so well. It was very much a monster of the week show. There was a monster every week. It was brilliant, but it had plot episodes, and it had a really beautifully drawn out, broad, wider plot, which was great. [01:21:22] Speaker B: That's, like, the ideal. The arc should be there. I should be journeying with these characters. I'd be seeing something going on. But at its core, I really want those monster of the week episodes, and surreal estate is just giving me all the beautiful, ghosty fun that I could possibly want. And it feels like one of those things that's so rare right now. Sci-Fi used to make a lot of shows that were kind of like this, and this feels like the only one that they really have left, and I'm enjoying that. So surreal estate, two seasons of it are on Hulu, if you're wanting to chat about mean. [01:21:59] Speaker A: Just occurred to me that I think Peter would really like fringe. [01:22:03] Speaker B: Oh, there you go. [01:22:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:22:10] Speaker B: Now, Mark. [01:22:13] Speaker A: Hello. [01:22:17] Speaker B: I have no idea why. When we were thinking about topics for this week, this is what popped into my head, but I texted you and was like, how about exorcisms and demons straight away? And any frequent listener to this podcast knows I'm actually not into demons, at least cinematically. I think they're corny and they're not scary at all. And this is largely because, coming from evangelicalism, I saw people always freaking out over the devil and demons, and I was like, you don't have a neat demon. You just had a nightmare. I never really believed in any of that. And movies that deal with those things tend to just kind of feel silly to me because I connected to that. It's like trying to make me scared of duck. Like, that's not a real thing. Why would I be scared of that? As it turns out, though, Mark, I am deeply in the minority on that in my country and increasingly so in yours, which is wild. [01:23:19] Speaker A: To context here. We are talking here about the actual belief of the religious inclined to still in 2024, think of demons as actual, literal fucking beasts that you need to be on your guard against, that you. [01:23:41] Speaker B: Need to be aware that want to do you harm and can. [01:23:44] Speaker A: Yes, that's where we're at. Yeah, that's what we're talking about. [01:23:47] Speaker B: That's exactly what we're talking about today. Do you want to know how prevalent belief in this stuff is in the United States? [01:23:55] Speaker A: Well, see, I'm prepared to be surprised here, but you just told me, like, an hour ago that there's still fucking loads of people who are still looking for Bigfoot. [01:24:06] Speaker B: True. That's a good point. If I were to ask you. So it was 10% of Americans, or 11% of Americans believe in Bigfoot. Right. If I were to ask you how many Americans believe in demon possession? Not just demons, but demon possession. Actually, there are demons, and they can inhabit your body. What percentage of Americans do you think would believe? [01:24:27] Speaker A: That's my rational mind wants to go low. [01:24:39] Speaker B: Like, right. [01:24:40] Speaker A: 9%. Less than Bigfoot, surely. [01:24:43] Speaker B: Is that your guess? Less than Bigfoot? Eight or 9%? [01:24:46] Speaker A: I'm going to say 9%. [01:24:48] Speaker B: Well, Mark Lewis, it's 50. 50% of Americans believe in demon possession. Half. If you're walking down the street, one of every two people you see is like, yup, exorcist was a documentary. This boggles my mind even as an american, because I genuinely thought that was fringe shit and that even other christians didn't believe. It does explain a lot about the reactions you see to Lil Nas X's instagram all the time. [01:25:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. [01:25:16] Speaker B: Apparently a full 70% of Americans said that they believed in the devil in a 2007 Gallup poll. And while the inclination might be to be like, well, that was a long time ago, and people become less and less superstitious. That number was actually up 15% from 17 years before when the poll had been taken in 1990. So more people are believing in demons of the devil, not less. And this is bearing out, like I said, here in the US and over in your neck of the woods. [01:25:48] Speaker A: But it follows, surely, if so many Americans are still God fearing and the church categorically believes that demons are a real thing, then they have to, don't they? Because if you deny that, then you're surely pick and choosing which bits of your faith that you're going to stick. [01:26:05] Speaker B: With, which is what people do. Let's be real. We definitely pick and choose. And for me, I think I always saw it as allegorical or I was less likely to take everything fully literally in the Bible. And I'll get to this in one moment. But this has to do with how you interpret the Bible first and foremost, but also to that point, being a country that is more steeped in religious history and things like that, it does play into the fact that probably more people believe in the devil and demons than are like practicing christians than actually go to church and follow other parts of the christian faith. It's like a superstition that persists in spite of that. [01:26:57] Speaker A: Incredible, incredible. [01:27:00] Speaker B: Go ahead. [01:27:01] Speaker A: No, please, Carol. [01:27:02] Speaker B: Well, did you have a thought on that? Because I was going to move forward. [01:27:08] Speaker A: It's incredible to me that even though the church has done it has kind of paid lip service to modernizing in its view of blessing, but not consecrating gay marriage, that kind of thing, they're doing their best to kind of move it. Just little tiny baby steps into the. [01:27:30] Speaker B: Now, I'm not like regular churches. I'm a cool church. [01:27:33] Speaker A: Exactly. I'm sitting on the edge of the. [01:27:35] Speaker B: Table, you know what I mean? Yeah, right. [01:27:37] Speaker A: But the church has modernized its view on demons. Not one fucking jot. [01:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah, not at all. [01:27:46] Speaker A: Not one little bit. Exorcism is still an absolutely black and white fucking rubber stamped procedure of the church. It still exists. There is still guidance which tells you how to perform one. They are still performed. And in that same kind of vein of just modernizing itself in little tiny, tiny steps. There have been updates to the catholic guidance. [01:28:13] Speaker B: Well, let me let you get to that in 1 minute. [01:28:16] Speaker A: Go ahead. [01:28:17] Speaker B: Because I want you to go into that. I'm very interested in that, but let me just set you up a little bit more before you get into that because it's a fascinating element of this. So in 2011, there were fewer than 15 trained catholic exorcists in the United States. And I'm sure as you're going to talk about, not everyone in the catholic church can do exorcist. Exorcist. This is an important thing. So less than 15. Fewer than 15 in 2011. By 2018, there were somewhere between 70 and over 100. There are no official records kept of this because you're not supposed to show off that your diocese has a demon guy. But even by. Yeah, right, like, oh, yeah, just call the exorcist. But even by conservative estimates, if the figure is 70, that's a huge leap in a very short period of time, from fewer than 15 to 70 exorcists in America over seven years. Meanwhile, in the UK, folks are still more inclined to believe in ghosts than God. And even this is interesting. Christian Brits are more likely to believe in aliens than the literal devil. On top of that, british Christians are. [01:29:32] Speaker A: Also trying to fucking make sense of this fucking mind. [01:29:35] Speaker B: Let me give you this one, because this is even more incredible to me. British Christians are pretty agnostic about the existence of God with only 41% of british Christians saying they definitely believe in a creator. That's insane to me, that's like the central thing. That's wild. But this speaks of something that's shifting. What we see here is people who are sort of born Christian. Right? Was your family historically part of some church, like five generations back? Okay, at some point they must have been, but not notably so. I mean, you're Welsh, maybe not. You could come from all kinds of different traditions or whatever, but like savages, that's what. Right, exactly. You're worshiping trees or whatever. I don't know, but say your family is. [01:30:32] Speaker A: Trees. [01:30:33] Speaker B: I don't know, but say, like, your family is Church of England historically, right. Technically you're Christian, but nobody's gone to church since the victorian times or whatever. Probably baptized, know, christened or whatever, but that's about it. So the UK as a whole is not actively very religious and hasn't been for a good long time. Whereas according to vice, there are some 20 million pentecostal Christians in the US. And an important thing about Pentecostals specifically is a belief in a very literal relationship with God, as well as a literal interpretation of the scripture and a very literal belief in a spiritual realm that is all around you and that you are constantly interacting with. While not everyone in the US is a Pentecostal, a lot of our religious tradition is based on the idea that what's in the Bible is real and literal. And thus we have a weird proportion of folks who think that the devil is real and demon possession is real. In the UK, though, pentecostalism is growing, in 2006, it was the fastest growing christian group in the region. And today there are some 17,000 pentecostal churches in the UK. There are around 1 million Pentecostals in the UK. And a lot of this is spurred by immigration as Pentecostalism is, according to the BBC, very strong in the developing world. And in many of those places the threat Pentecostalism poses towards established denominations leads to persecution, leading people to emigrate. But all this is to say pentecostalism is huge, about 10% of all Christians worldwide. And it's very prevalent in America with a surprising prevalence in the UK. And while Pentecostals and Catholics don't often see eye to eye, apparently one thing they're willing to adopt from their papist counterparts is the right of exorcism, which is becoming more and more common in both our nations. So Marco, you've got some information about what that entails and where it came from? [01:32:36] Speaker A: Yes, I do. It's fascinating to me that up until the church volume on guidance on the processes and the circumstances of exorcism hadn't been updated since the 16 hundreds. Right. 1614 is the last time this was updated. And it remained unaltered, entirely untouched until the. There was an update to the catholic text on exorcisms, which is called exorcismus et cetera. I practiced this. [01:33:18] Speaker B: I like that title though. [01:33:21] Speaker A: Exorcismus at supplicacionibus quibusdam. Nice, right? Translates of exorcisms and certain supplications. That's how that translates in English. Beautiful. [01:33:32] Speaker B: I like. There's something very kind of mysterious about that title too. I like it. [01:33:37] Speaker A: Listen, I was properly reeled in by this. It was our man, Pope John Paul the 7th, who approved these updates and it was issued at a presentation at the Vatican. Sorry, Pope John Paul the 6th. I apologize. [01:33:54] Speaker B: I thought he was the second. [01:33:56] Speaker A: Wait a second. But I got my numeral wrong there. He was the second, wasn't he? [01:34:01] Speaker B: I was like, that's too many John Paul's. The second one only died like 20 years ago. [01:34:07] Speaker A: They had a proper glut over them since then. But yes, presented at the Vatican in 99. And the major updates are they make a nod to maybe it's mental health. Okay, sure, maybe community care or pastoral care might be indicated in some of these cases. So don't just steam in with your discerning, yes, you exercise a little bit of quality control in the exorcisms that you perform, but other than that, pretty much the book is entirely unaltered. Right. Clear, unambiguous guidance that Satan is a real living fucking tangible. You know, we've got ways of tackling him, of dragging him out of people. And I'm delighted to announce that the english translation of exechismus at Sapio Cassianovus quibusdom is available in paperback for 999. You can just fucking buy it. [01:35:11] Speaker B: You know what I mean? And this is like. I feel like it's worth noting, I saw in my research that the english version has only existed since 2017, so we are very lucky to be able to actually have this and read what is actually happening in those latin chants. [01:35:30] Speaker A: You mentioned the exorcist earlier on. Right. As I'm kind of outlining what the stages are of an exorcism. And I'll read a little bit from the Tome as well. I'll read a little bit from exorcisms and citizens. [01:35:42] Speaker B: This is how you get deadites. But go on. [01:35:49] Speaker A: But it brings home to me even more so just what a brilliantly researched bit of work that film is. Because that last 45 minutes, when the exorcism has taken place, it is lifted right out of this text. [01:36:02] Speaker B: Incredible. [01:36:03] Speaker A: They nail it. So the book outlines twelve stages of determining whether an exorcism is indicated. The type of person, the type of priest who should be performing it. I'll go from the top. Right. First you need authorization. So authorization is the first step. The priest has to have explicit permission from his bishop. And that authorization ensures that priest is properly trained and understands the kind of the gravity of the. Right. The spiritual significance of what he's going to do. Okay. Followed that is stage two, which is investigation. So the priest must conduct an investigation to discern whether it is indeed a supernatural disturbance. And this is where you consult with mental health professionals, obviously. [01:36:52] Speaker B: Sure. [01:36:52] Speaker A: To rule out any medical causes for the fuckery. Right. Following that, a phase of preparation. So the priest has to participate in kind of long periods of prayer, fasting, just spiritual fortification, which is considered absolutely crucial for it to work. We then go into liturgical vestments. So the priest has to wear the right kind of kit. You know what I mean? You don't just turn up in your fucking joggers. [01:37:24] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [01:37:26] Speaker A: Like spaghetti sauce on your t shirt. But no, you've got to wear the right shit. So the sacred nature. The sacred. The right authority of the church. You've then got to clear a liturgical space, if you can. Ideally, you want to get the victim into a church. Right? [01:37:44] Speaker B: Okay. [01:37:44] Speaker A: But obviously, that's not always possible. So you've got to get the vibes right. [01:37:49] Speaker B: Feng shui that shit. [01:37:51] Speaker A: Get a yankee candle. You can get a yankee candle with Angel's wings scent. [01:37:57] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's got to do it. I was going to say, I go for a clean cotton when I get my yankee candle on, but that beautiful. There you go. [01:38:04] Speaker A: But no fact, there's a yankee candle called Angel's wings, which strikes me that they pulled a blinder there because you can't return that, can you? If you get one that. [01:38:14] Speaker B: This doesn't smell like proper. [01:38:18] Speaker A: Know, orange peel. All know. Anyway, then, liturgical prayers, of course. Invocations of the Holy Spirit, the litany of the saints. Just seeking that divine assistance and Protection. And then it's on to the interrogations and commands. You address that possessing entity directly, using prayers of command and interrogation, using authoritative and powerful language. [01:38:47] Speaker B: The power of Christ compels you. [01:38:50] Speaker A: Exactly. This. Followed by blessings and sprinklings of holy water. Reciting passages of sacred scripture from the Bible. Those that emphasize the authority of Christ over the evil spirits. Get out. Get the fuck out of there. [01:39:08] Speaker B: I would like to know what's the consequences if you don't follow this? And instead, the demon is like, your mother sucks cocks in hell. And you're like, no, your mom, what happens? [01:39:19] Speaker A: She doesn't. [01:39:20] Speaker B: No, she does not. [01:39:22] Speaker A: Not my mom. Well, again, I may refer to that in a bit when I quote directly from the book, because after the sacred scriptures, it's then all about renunciation and repentance. So the victim, the person. You're being exercised, the exoc, if you will, will be asked to renounce any involvement with evil or sin and focus on repentance and turning towards God. And then, assuming it's all gone well, assuming it's been a good one, you conclude with prayers of thanksgiving, invoke the intercession of the saints, and then finally, again in the update, the updated version, it's then the priest provides ongoing pastoral care and support for the individual. [01:40:04] Speaker B: Nice. [01:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah. We're talking counseling. [01:40:07] Speaker B: You're not going to just love them and leave them? [01:40:09] Speaker A: Absolutely not. No. After care a little cuddle? Something pleasant. [01:40:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:20] Speaker A: So what I'm going to do now. [01:40:23] Speaker B: I wish we didn't just sexualize the exorcism. Sorry, go on. [01:40:28] Speaker A: Lost sex of sister. All right, so I'm going to read from the prologue, the preliminary instructions. [01:40:37] Speaker B: Right. [01:40:37] Speaker A: So, this is a direct requote of exorcisms and certain supplications. A priest, one who is expressly and in special wise, authorized by the ordinary when he intends to perform an exorcism over persons tormented by the devil, must be properly distinguished for his piety, prudence and integrity of life. [01:40:56] Speaker B: He's really hoping for a third. [01:40:59] Speaker A: I know they missed a trick there. I'm a sucker for alliteration. Rule of thirds. Moreover, he ought to be of mature years and revered not alone for his office, but for his moral qualities. [01:41:11] Speaker B: Like Russell Crow. [01:41:14] Speaker A: I was thinking more. [01:41:16] Speaker B: We went completely different directions with that. [01:41:18] Speaker A: We did? You went men in black meets the devil, didn't you? Yes. So that's some words there on the kind of priest that we want. I'm going to go to section three of the prologue. Here especially, he should not believe too readily that a person is possessed by evil spirit. But he ought to ascertain the signs by which a person possessed can be distinguished from one who is suffering from melancholy or some other illness. [01:41:46] Speaker B: Was this the 90s update? They went with melancholy. [01:41:49] Speaker A: Yeah. The vapors, the humors of the body aren't quite blind in this one, but here we go. Here's the cool bits. Signs of possession are among the following. Ability to speak with some facility in a strange tongue or to understand it when spoken by another. The faculty of divulging future and hidden events. Prophecies, indeed. Display of powers which are beyond the subject's age and natural condition. And various other indications which, when taken together as a whole, build up the evidence. Yeah. Are they speaking French? Can they float? Are they fucking vomiting at you? That kind of thing. [01:42:32] Speaker B: Did they pick the lottery numbers ahead of. [01:42:35] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. [01:42:37] Speaker B: In which case, keep the demon. It's fine. [01:42:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:42:41] Speaker B: Really. [01:42:41] Speaker A: I'll pay him off. We'll party. We'll go to Vegas. Now on the demon themselves. Right. On the possession itself. Let me see. Yes. Once in a while, after the demon has been recognized, they can conceal themselves and leave the body practically free from every molestation so that the victim believes himself completely delivered. [01:43:07] Speaker B: Yet the exorcist. [01:43:09] Speaker A: Exactly. I'm fine now. No, the exorcist may not desist until he sees the signs of deliverance. [01:43:18] Speaker B: Oh, tell me. [01:43:19] Speaker A: Very cool. Now, he ought to have a crucifix at hand or somewhere in sight. [01:43:23] Speaker B: Course. [01:43:24] Speaker A: Come on. [01:43:26] Speaker B: Without a crucifix, like, what are you even doing? [01:43:28] Speaker A: Hit the fucking bricks and send the real guy in. I wanted the organ grinder, not the monkey, pal. Get the fuck out of here. If relics of the saints are available, they are to be applied in a reverent way to the breast or the head of the person possessed. One will see to it that these sacred objects are not treated improperly or that no injury is done them by the evil spirit. It's a lot of pressure, however. Yes. One should not hold the Holy Eucharist over the head. Of the person nor in any way apply it to his body owing to the danger of desecration. You're going to get fluids. [01:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah. You're going to get demon goop all over your crucifix. [01:44:02] Speaker A: Exactly. All over your brand new bible purchased from Gibson's books now. [01:44:10] Speaker B: Nice. 20% off code Joak. [01:44:14] Speaker A: Just quote Joak at checkout now. I love this one. Right. Let the priest pronounce the exorcism in a commanding and authoritative voice, and at the same time, with great confidence, humility and fervor. And when he sees that the spirit is sorely vexed, then he oppresses and threatens all the more if he notices that the person afflicted is experiencing a disturbance in some part of his body or an acute pain or a swelling appears in some part, he traces the sign of the cross over that place and sprinkles it with holy water, which he must have at hand for this purpose. [01:44:48] Speaker B: Nice. [01:44:49] Speaker A: So if the head is twisting, if the throat is bulging, if there's levitation. [01:44:53] Speaker B: Going on, salt bay him with that holy water. [01:44:57] Speaker A: Exactly. And the final bit I want to quote, for he will pay attention as to what words in particular cause the evil spirits to tremble, repeating them the more frequently. [01:45:10] Speaker B: Nice. [01:45:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And when he comes to a threatening expression, he recurs to it again and again, always increasing the punishment. If he perceives that he's making progress, let him persist for two, three, 4 hours and longer if he can, until victory is attained. [01:45:25] Speaker B: Exhausting. [01:45:26] Speaker A: I think that's badass. [01:45:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Listen, describing the exorcism ritual is so much more metal than watching it. Obviously, the exorcist is great. It's scary, all that kind of stuff. But when you describe this, that all sounds so intense and very cool. [01:45:47] Speaker A: Yes, 100%. I almost wish I thought it wasn't all horseshit. [01:45:52] Speaker B: Right. It's like, you get why people believe that, because that's cool as shit. Especially because that's one of the things with christians is like, christians love to think they're oppressed, right? And it's like, if a person's not going to oppress you, how about Satan doing it? And so the idea you're a Christian and you need to be fighting some sort of spiritual battle, there's like some demon in you and you get to command it with a commanding voice but full of humility. And also all these kinds of things are super appealing. [01:46:23] Speaker A: To think all of those stages were present in the Exorcist. I'm so impressed with how well researched that was, man. [01:46:30] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. So all of that is fascinating. And obviously the thing at the root of this is this is a heavy catholic rite that has been around for centuries. This whole process is a thing that they've, I was going to say honed, but really not honed. It's just the one thing. Until they added one update. [01:46:51] Speaker A: Stuck with it. [01:46:52] Speaker B: Yeah, they stuck with know if it ain't broke, don't fix it or whatever. [01:46:55] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:46:56] Speaker B: Until it was. Know it might be kind of broken. But here's the thing. The boom in what we would call exorcisms, even though it's specifically a right of the Catholic Church that you've just discussed, is in large part because of, like I said, the growth of Pentecostalism, particularly in the developing world and people who have emigrated from such places. And in Pentecostalism, you don't have to have the trained guy sanctioned by the pope or whatever. [01:47:25] Speaker A: No. Really? [01:47:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So depending on the denomination or even your specific church's beliefs, it could just be any pastor or even a layperson who just is in the church. [01:47:36] Speaker A: Like a citizen's exorcism? [01:47:37] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. It's a citizen's arrest of demons. And these are big, theatrical and very spontaneous rituals when performed in Pentecostalism, which can lead to some sketchy shit, like a pastor in South Africa who kissed a young girl to expunge a demon from her mouth, for example. And indeed, it's how totally fucking sideways these things can go that makes exorcism more than just a silly or very metal little tradition that the christians get up to and effects makes the process deeply dangerous on multiple levels. For example, in January of 2020, a group of indigenous people in Panama were rounded up by lay preachers. Then, according to the Associated Press, tortured, beaten, burned, and hacked with machetes to make them repent of their sins. A particularly brutal form of exorcism. Five children, one only a year old, their pregnant mother and a 17 year old girl were killed in this exorcism. And to be clear, this is like. [01:48:42] Speaker A: That doesn't sound like exorcism at all to me. [01:48:45] Speaker B: Yeah, this is just murder. But this was kind of like, basically like a fringe cult that lived down there. And they were like, indigenous people are evil, and this is how we're going to exercise the demons from them, through torture, essentially. In the fall of 2021, three year old Arelli Naomi Proctor died after her family performed an exorcism on her at the Iglesia Postales de Profetas in San Jose, California. According to Areli's mother, she would wake up and scream or cry periodically, which is obviously just what kids are. [01:49:25] Speaker A: I mean, bad day last week, Laura tells me that in the middle of the night, I sat up in bed and grabbed hold of the light fitting above us. [01:49:36] Speaker B: And then what? Did you just let go? [01:49:38] Speaker A: And then she let go and lay back down. I would have been hacked. [01:49:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you would have been hacked in an instant. Let's be real. So this family became convinced that it was a demon causing the problem of this girl waking up and screaming. So they took her to the church where her grandfather was the pastor, and the mother repeatedly stuck her finger down the girl's throat to get her to vomit. [01:50:02] Speaker A: Man. [01:50:03] Speaker B: She was described as falling asleep several times while her mother pushed down on her throat with her hands. Once Arley died, they waited 2 hours to call 911. And the grandfather told the news, quote, if you read the Bible, you'll see that Jesus casts away demons and made sick people healthy again. It's not when I want to do, it's when God, in his will, wants to heal the person. The preacher is like an instrument of God. What we do is what God says, which is an insane thing to say after you've just killed your grandchild. [01:50:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it. [01:50:37] Speaker B: Good grief. And listen, you can see why in places like parts of Mexico that are overrun by cartels and desperate for a way to stop the like, people seek out exorcism there as a way to get whatever brutal demon that is causing all this out. A mexican priest and exorcist, Father Carlos Triana said, we believe that behind all these big and structural evils, there is a dark agent and his name is the demon. That is why the Lord wants to have here a ministry of exorcism and liberation for the fight against the devil. For Triana, the devil was behind Hitler's reign of terror, and he's behind that of the cartels. It's misguided, but also when you're dealing with so much gruesome violence all the time, you kind of just find comfort where you can and tell yourself there's some way you can get rid of it. [01:51:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:25] Speaker B: Let me tell you one more. In 1974, Michael and Christine Taylor of West Yorkshire, England, started attending a group called the Gobber Christian Fellowship, saying that G-A-W-B-E-R-G-A Gorber so we're saying the same thing, just a different accent. Gorber. [01:51:49] Speaker A: Oh, is that how that feels? [01:51:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what it's like. Did it hurt? Did it sting? [01:51:55] Speaker A: A little bit? Yeah. [01:51:56] Speaker B: Okay. Pentecostal as fuck. The church was into all the Holy Spirit stuff. And Michael got on board with the speaking in tongues and Bible studies and all that, to the point where his wife was like, you're spending too much time with the female pastor here, and clearly have a thing for her. And she said this kind of publicly, like at, like a Bible study situation. This caused him to tell the pastor, Marie, his feelings, which, of course, were rejected. And he flew off the handle, screaming and hitting Marie. And instead of recognizing they were dealing with an unhinged man with some mental issues who couldn't handle such an affront to his masculinity, they decided he needed an exorcism. So they gave him one and claimed that they totes chased out 40 demons from the guy, but three remained. Three. [01:52:49] Speaker A: What an arbitrary fucking number that is. [01:52:51] Speaker B: Well, three associated with murder, violence, and insanity. The worst ones, which is naturally why a few hours post exorcism, Michael was found wandering the streets naked and covered in blood, shouting about the devil. When they went back to his house, Christine was found with her face torn off, her eyes gouged out, and her tongue ripped from her mouth. Chunks of her splattered across the wall. He'd also strangled the family dog and ripped its limbs from its body. [01:53:24] Speaker A: Oh, no. The dog did nothing. [01:53:29] Speaker B: Neither did Christine. [01:53:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Obviously. [01:53:34] Speaker B: She was the person who was like, things are going wrong here. We need to do something about it. Yeah. And the dog was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And this guy, clearly the exorcism didn't work. Turns out, wasn't a demon. He just had problems. And to sort of bring this back to our horror things and all of that kind of stuff, this is why movies like the conjuring series and others that use rip from the headline stories are so fucking galling because they use real life stories of people who are sick or mentally ill or whatever and then give legitimacy to the idea that it was totally demons, which then perpetuates the idea that, well, maybe my friend or relative who's been acting kind of weird has a demon and we should exorcise it, which is becoming more popular. And that can be violent and deadly at worst, but at best, it's also just like traumatizing someone who has a very normal earth issue and that they should probably just be going to a doctor or therapist for. Yeah. [01:54:38] Speaker A: Exorcism, very metal, very dangerous and alarmingly growing in popularity. [01:54:49] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not great. [01:54:53] Speaker A: Incredible. [01:54:54] Speaker B: Not a thing that we want to keep happening. [01:54:57] Speaker A: Listen, if you haven't got the point. By now, over the last God knows how many episodes of Jack of all graves, man, people be making up shit to fucking justify their horrible, horrible, horrible behaviors and desires. [01:55:12] Speaker B: Yeah, and think about that. When this was developed, when you're talking about the 16 hundreds or whatever it was that you said that they didn't have reasons for all of this stuff, so this was their best guess, along with the humors and all of that kind of stuff. But it's 20 and 24. We understand why this shit happens. [01:55:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's something I'm fond of saying. I'm sure God had its place for a while, you know what I mean? When we didn't know what fucking lightning was or whatever. [01:55:47] Speaker B: Yeah, why are there stars? [01:55:49] Speaker A: Exactly. But fuck me, man. It's 2024, right? Look, if you want to go a murdering, go to it. [01:55:59] Speaker B: Do it. Don't blame God and Satan, but don't. [01:56:02] Speaker A: Fucking try and pull the wool over our eyes. Not on jack of all graves, not on the podcast. Bad bitches only. [01:56:11] Speaker B: That's right. [01:56:13] Speaker A: So listen, a couple of things to think on over the coming week. Have you seen Bigfoot? Do. Do you think there's a place for AI generated fucking art inserted into movies? Have we got it wrong? Who made the predator costume? Yes, and stay spooky. [01:56:34] Speaker B: All that.