Ep. 186: the panic broadcast & the second death

[00:00:04] Speaker A: It's October 30, 1938. Millions of families all over the United States settle in around the radio for their regular evening entertainment. Cold glasses of ovaltine gripped in their unassuming mitts. The broadcast begins. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Good evening ladies and gentlemen. From the meridian Room in the Park Plaza in New York City we bring you the music of Ramon Raquello in his orchestra where the touch of the spanish Ramon Rockello leads off with La Comparsita. [00:00:33] Speaker A: And then, without warning, an interruption, some kind of emergency bulletin. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt our program of dance music to bring you a special bulletin from the intercontinental radio news. At 20 minutes before eight central time, Professor Farrell of the Mount Jennings Observatory, Chicago, Illinois, reports observing several explosions of incandescent gas occurring at regular intervals on the planet Mars. The spectroscope indicates the gas to be hydrogen and moving towards the earth with enormous velocity. Professor Pearson of the observatory at Princeton confirms Farrell's observation and describes the phenomenon as like a jet of blue flame shot from a gun. We now return you to the music of Ramon Roccello playing for you in the meridian room of the Park Plaza hotel situated in downtown New York. [00:01:19] Speaker A: They bring the concert back but listeners are nervous. Mothers pull their children a little closer. Fathers take a moment to pull back a corner of the living room curtains and peer up into the sky. Unsettled, they try to shrug it off and continue enjoying the dulcet tones drifting into their homes. And then another interruption, this time more concerning. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, following on the news given in our bulletin a moment ago, the Government Meteorological bureau has requested the large observatories of the country to keep an astronomical watch on any further disturbances occurring on the planet mars. [00:01:56] Speaker A: They explain to the audience that theyre going to bring in an expert astronomer from Princeton University on the air to discuss these strange disturbances in the sky. And after a moment, more of music. Here he is, Professor Pearson to explain what hes seeing as he looks through his telescope at Mars. There seem to be some explosions of some sort. But Mars is 40 million mile away, so were safe enough. The interview concludes. Music returns but then another interruption, this one even more chilling than the others. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Ladies and gentlemen, here is the latest bulletin from the Intercontinental Radio News, Toronto, Canada. Professor Morse of McGill University reports observing a total of three explosions on the planet Mars between the hours of 07:45 p.m. and 09:20 p.m. eastern Standard Time. This confirms earlier reports received from american observatories. Now near a home comes a special announcement from Trenton, New Jersey. It is reported that at 08:50 p.m. a huge flaming object, believed to be a meteorite, fell on a farm in the neighborhood of Grover's Mill, New Jersey, 22 miles from Trenton. The flash in the sky was visible within a radius of several hundred miles and the noise of the impact was heard as far north as Elizabeth. We have dispatched a special mobile unit to the scene and we'll have our commentator Carl Phillips give you a word description as soon as he can reach there from Princeton. In the meantime, we take you to the Hotel martinet in Brooklyn where Bobby Millette and his orchestra are offering a program of dance music. [00:03:26] Speaker A: No one's listening to the music anymore, only waiting for the next bulletin. And it comes soon enough. Carl Phillips reporting alongside doctor Pearson at the scene. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Well, I hardly know where to begin to paint for you a word picture of the strange scene before my eyes. Like something out of a modern arabian nights. Well I just got here. I haven't had a chance to look around yet. I guess that's it. I. Yes, I guess that's the thing. Directly in front of me, half buried in a vast pit. Must have struck with terrific force. The ground is covered with splinters of a tree. It must have struck on its way down. What can I see of the object itself? Doesn't look very much like a meteor. At least not the meteors I've seen. It looks more like a huge cylinder. [00:04:14] Speaker A: The object is some 40 meters in diameter. They say the farmer who owns the land upon which it fell gives his report of the incident. And then chaos begins to break out at the scene. Something's happening. People are yelling, some telling others to get back. And Carl Phillips describes something truly horrific unfolding before him. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Good heavens. Something's wriggling out of the shadow like a grey snake. Now its another one and another. They look like tentacles to me. There I can see the things body. Its large. Large as a bear. And it glistens like wet leather. But that face it ladies and gentlemen, its indescribable. I can hardly force myself to keep looking at it. The eyes are black and gleam like a serpent. The mouth is v shaped with saliva dripping from its rimless lips that seem to quiver and pulsate. The monster or whatever it is can hardly move. It seems weighed down by possibly gravity or something. The things raising up. The crowd falls back now. They've seen plenty. This is the most extraordinary experience. I can't find words. I'll pull this microphone with me as I talk. I'll have to stop the description until I can take a new position. Hold on, will you, please? I'll be right back in a minute. [00:05:35] Speaker A: PIANO plays women and children begin to softly weep in their homes. [00:05:42] Speaker B: A humped shape is rising out of the pit. I can make out a small beam of light against a mirror. What's that? There's a jet of flame springing from the mirror, and it leaps right at the advancing men. It strikes them head on. Good lord, they're turning into flame now the whole field's caught fire. The woods, the barns, the gas tanks of automobiles. It's spreading everywhere. It's coming the this way. About 20 yards to my right. [00:06:09] Speaker A: The transmission cuts out. When next it resumes, listeners are informed that 40 people are dead in that field, including six state troopers. Several counties in New Jersey are being put under martial law as the military begins its operation to determine and neutralize the threat. As the broadcast continues, America is thrown into panic. People take to the streets, screaming, crying, gathering in city centers with other fearful citizens watching the sky. Police stations are flooded with calls, as is the radio station airing this horrifying news. Swept up in the horror of it all, a man drops dead of a heart attack. Others take their own lives by leaping from buildings in order to avoid a crueler fate at the hands of the alien invaders. Hospitals are flooded with patients needing treatment for shock. On this halloween Eve in 1938, chaos erupts over a simple fictional broadcast created by 23 year old media genius Orson Welles and his mercury theater. Or at least that's the story we've all been told. [00:07:09] Speaker B: That's very much the story as I understand it. I'm back now, by the way. I'm out of character. I'm back. [00:07:16] Speaker A: It's so good to see you again, Mark. An excellent work. Thank you, by the way. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:07:20] Speaker A: Did you like that? [00:07:21] Speaker B: Good, good. [00:07:21] Speaker A: I did. I mean, for all of you at home, I asked Mark to give me, like, an old timey welsh broadcaster because I've never heard, like, an old timey welsh guy before. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Nor have I. I think you is evident. [00:07:34] Speaker A: No, I feel like you. You nailed it. I feel really good about it. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Good, good. But, yeah, that's exactly how it went down, surely. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, surely that's a story. No, Marco, today I'm going to bust that right open and explain to you why the myth of the war of the worlds panic broadcast is just that. [00:07:52] Speaker B: You sure love to bust a thing wide open, don't you? [00:07:58] Speaker A: I can't tell if you're just talking about my general like of myth busting or if you were trying to insinuate something about me. But either way, you're the former. [00:08:06] Speaker B: Very much the former. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Thank you, thank you. But yes, this is a myth so heavily circulated that nearly every adult in America knows the story and would happily tell it to you without questioning. Of course, those silly old timey people were tricked into thinking it was real. How could they know better? Like those adorable doofuses who jumped out of the way of the train the first time they saw a film in the cinema. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yep. [00:08:30] Speaker A: People back then were so naive, innocent, simple people. Yes, right. Just simpler times, you know? Or so the story goes. In point of fact, Mark, there is no evidence that anything of the sort happened that night. And in reality, where does a fucking. [00:08:48] Speaker B: A very specific strange rumor like that come from? Who starts something like that? [00:08:53] Speaker A: We'll talk about that. We will absolutely talk about how that happened. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Everyone knows that. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Don't worry, I will it around and end it with a bang though. So bear with me as I destroy this for you and tell you how. [00:09:08] Speaker B: This build it amuses. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Alright? [00:09:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. So like I said, there's no evidence anything like this happened. And everything that we do know works against it, from the show's listenership, to the framing of the broadcast, to the hospital records and the call logs at the time. And to be fair, we can't totally blame people for having bought in because incredulous, and lets face it, sensationalist media like the one Welles would go on to depict in the unimpeachable classic citizen Kane, spread the lie that audiences en masse believe that radio broadcasts to be real. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Mmm. [00:09:43] Speaker A: The New York Times, the Boston Globe, the Washington Post and so on, ran stories about how the broadcast stirred terror and terrified the nation. Lets get one thing straight out the gate here. The nation was not listening. How do we know that? Well, a poll was conducted that very night over the telephone in which 5000 households were asked what program they were listening to. A whopping 2% of respondents said that they had tuned into some sort of radio play or mentioned War of the worlds by name. [00:10:19] Speaker B: I see. Okay. [00:10:21] Speaker A: 2% said they listened to some sort of radio play. May not even have been War of the worlds. [00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I wasn't really listening. [00:10:28] Speaker A: Right. Like, we don't know if that was for sure what it was. So only 2%, even in the ballpark of having watched or listened to War of the worlds. In many markets, War of the worlds wasn't even airing, as the CB's affiliates were carrying local shows instead. For example, Boston. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Scotch it. [00:10:49] Speaker A: It's scotched. [00:10:51] Speaker B: Scotched. You've scotched this particular story. Do you know that when she. [00:10:54] Speaker A: What does this mean? No, what does scotched mean? [00:10:56] Speaker B: If I come at you with, you know, some kind of story, some kind of event, some kind of sequence of events that I've represented, if you can, if you've taken that down, you've scotched it, mate. Nah, I'm going to scotch that one. You've all heard the story. Let me scotch this here and now with the application of facts. [00:11:12] Speaker A: You've scotched it and have already done it out the gate, right? It's scotched the end. Let's start the podcast. No, well, let me go on and further scotch this for you. So like I said, war of the worlds wasn't carried in many of CB's on many of CB's affiliates throughout the country because there were local things that preempted it and everywhere else. Well, homie was up against Edgar Bergen, one of the most popular entertainers of the time. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Yep. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah. What's that? [00:11:47] Speaker B: Ed Bergen's catchphrase. [00:11:49] Speaker A: What was his catchphrase? [00:11:51] Speaker B: I'm big head motherfucker. [00:11:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds right. It was coming out of his little ventriloquist dummy. Yeah, that's facts. I'm not going to scotch that. So he was hosting his regular weekly comedy variety show, the Chase and Sanborn hour at the same time. So while plenty of people would later swear that they were totally listening that day, yeah, we know for a fact that most of them absolutely weren't a niche. Halloween broadcast wasn't pulling anyone away from their regular favorite show. For those who were listening, chances are they weren't caught unaware by what they heard. Because you see, there was not one, but two warnings both before and in the middle of the show that this was a radio drama and not an actual news broadcast of a real thing that was happening, CB's recognized that there was of course, a risk that people might tune in and think something was genuinely amiss as the broadcast had taken inspiration from actual bulletins, like the one that played when the Hindenburg went down, for example. [00:13:06] Speaker B: So they remind me again what year we're in here. [00:13:09] Speaker A: 38. [00:13:12] Speaker B: There'd be still some survivors of that around, maybe on the outdoor. No, no. Of the war of the world's broadcast. You know, we can get some firsthand. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Sure, yeah, primary evidence. But that's the funny thing about this whole story is that like firsthand accounts are super unreliable because people lied. So people have been claiming for, you know, the past 90 years or whatever, 80 years that they listened to this broadcast that we know for a fact. Had a tiny listenership. So, yeah, there's. I even read, like, I think it was in Smithsonian. No, maybe it was National Geographic. Anyway, I was reading one article that started with a guy who was saying that, like, he was, like, I was in my car and I heard it, you know, and I knew it was a hoax. And I got to my girlfriend's house and his, her sister was quaking because she thought it was real or whatever. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Just lies, just horseshit. [00:14:13] Speaker A: There's no. Yeah, that is total bullshit. That absolutely sounds like the story you make up afterwards. Right. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Like the news are interviewing you. [00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right. And it's so funny. And the guy at the time, so that article was in 2005, and he was 92 at the time. So that guy is certainly dead now. But, uh, the thing about this is that, like, people didn't really start challenging this narrative until like, maybe a decade or so ago. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Cause it's quite a fun one, isn't it? It's quite a fun narrative to have around. [00:14:50] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. Well, and it's one of those ones, like, kind of like when we talked about, like, the bystander effect. Right? And kitty Genovese. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, sure. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Where it's like, we take it to say something about people. Right? And so, like, you can use this for so many things, you know, whether you're talking about, like, fake news, whether you're talking about, like, you know, the. The gullibility of the masses, like, you know, media literacy, whatever. This is a great stand in for a lot of things that we think about people and the psychology of people that, you know, really what it comes down to is like, it's wrong. The only thing it tells you is how susceptible we are to, like, myth being propagated by trusted news sources more than anything else. [00:15:39] Speaker B: So do you have a kind of a. Is there a way to trace exactly how it grew and grew and got passed on and passed on? [00:15:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And I will I about to get into that, but I think one of the things that is interesting, what I was trying to get to and then got distracted, though, was that, like, when you look at articles, like from like 2005 and before, even some more recent than that, apparently Radiolab did an episode on this in like, 2018, and the American Experience docu series on PBS around the same time did a documentary on this, and still you find all the stuff that takes it completely seriously that says, oh, this happened. And the PBS doc eventually added a line to the end of it. That's like, some people think that this. [00:16:28] Speaker B: Was all right, so 2018, there were still documentaries being made about this event as though it was something that. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Yes, as if it actually happened. I mean, still, people talk about this like this happened. This is like, who are you? Like I said, like, what are your. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Credentials to turn up and say that it didn't? [00:16:44] Speaker A: So actual historians then researched all of this stuff and looked into, like, finding that thing that said how many people, you know, that survey that said how many people watching this, checking the call logs and things like that, which people were doing at the time, by the way. Let's be clear. People were incredulous about this at the time because, you know, the newspapers are saying, you know, there's all these people panic and stuff like that. And they're like, that's weird. Nobody around me seemed to be panicked. Like, you could look around you and go like, this feels like it didn't happen. So researchers have been able to look back at what people thought and how people responded at the time in order to go, yeah, this was not a thing. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Doesn't even ring remotely through. [00:17:33] Speaker A: Right, exactly. And even, like I said, just the obvious things. Right. There was a warning before this started that this is fake and there's a warning in the middle. [00:17:46] Speaker B: I don't seem to remember if there was a warning before Ghostwatch, for example, which is the closest parallel that actually happened that I can think of. And I know Ghostwatch happened before. [00:17:54] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Yes. But what I don't. [00:17:58] Speaker A: That plenty of people have memories of watching. Yeah. [00:18:00] Speaker B: What I don't remember was any kind of warning at the start. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Well, and I think there's a key difference and we're jumping the gun a little bit. We'll come back around to it. But I think one of the key differences here is that ghost watch was not telling the audience that something was, like, going to happen to them. [00:18:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:21] Speaker A: So they weren't like, there's a herd army of ghosts coming to all of your homes, pipes is in your pipes. Like, that wasn't what happened. [00:18:32] Speaker B: So they, are you aware of, you know, Craig Charles? Yes. Are you aware of his cultural footprint outside of Red Dwarf and radio six, music and ghost watch? [00:18:45] Speaker A: No, my family is just really into Red Dwarf. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Okay. Remind me to talk to you about Craig Charles maybe a bit later on in this episode. Okay. [00:18:53] Speaker A: I feel good about that. Just please don't, like, ruin him for me because, like, I want, like, one thing left from that. [00:19:00] Speaker B: I think he's okay now. He seems all right now. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'll take that. But anyways, so CB's puts the warnings in to keep people from panicking about anything. It's worth noting too that while people of the 1930s may not have been as tech savvy as your average 21st century digital boy, they weren't fucking stupid. It didn't just accept that there were suddenly aliens invading the earth. Like, if you turned on the tv. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. [00:19:34] Speaker A: If you turn on the tv right now and you saw a news bulletin about space aliens, what would you assume you had just turned on? [00:19:40] Speaker B: A work of fiction. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Yeah, right. You'd be like, oh, I've turned on a science fiction television. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Yeah, sure, sure. [00:19:47] Speaker A: You wouldn't be like, oh my God, we're being invaded right now. [00:19:51] Speaker B: Or at least I'd change the channel. Or maybe try and guess. [00:19:53] Speaker A: Yeah, like, at least you'd check a second opinion if you change the channel. And Edgar Bergen is still, what's his catchphrase? [00:20:02] Speaker B: It's biggerhead motherfuckers. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Right? If he's still doing that, there's fucking. [00:20:06] Speaker B: Aliens out there, bro. [00:20:11] Speaker A: You're probably fine this looking out the. [00:20:15] Speaker B: Window and he doesn't fucking like what he's seeing out there. [00:20:18] Speaker A: This is so horrifying. He's a nice man with a puppet. Candice Bergen's dad. Fucking. Although I think actually he was like, not a good dad. But anyway, no, there are some reports of people having been concerned because they thought at first that the broadcast had something to do with a german invasion, which makes sense at that point. But once they realized that it was about tentacled monsters from Mars, they were like, oh, okay, it's a radio play. Got it. Not to mention that the novel war of the worlds came out in 1898, so it wasn't like they were adapting some previously unheard of source material. Certainly there'd be a contingent of people listening who went, I see what they did there. Especially because again, it was the day before Halloween. Spooky things airing around the holiday absolutely makes sense. And according to Smithsonian magazine, the programme Mercury Theater on the air had already been running for 17 weeks before the War of the Worlds broadcast. So people tuning in were probably tuning in specifically to listen to that show anyway. So the radio station did indeed report an influx of calls that night. But they werent about people thinking that Martians had seriously fucked up New Jersey. Some callers were angry about the content of this broadcast, and that still happens. There are entire organizations built around being mad at what's on tv and what's in movies and what's in music. The station had just broadcast a horror show with terrifying aliens and mass death. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yep. [00:22:00] Speaker A: You think the moms who'd made the mistake of settling in to listen with their now traumatized five year olds, didn't call the station and give them a piece of their minds about this? [00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, what is fascinating to me, the whole thing or the event or the lack of the event then, is fascinating to me. But more than anything, it's. How can that. How can something that never happened take such a tenacious root in the, you know, the cultural history of a culture? [00:22:31] Speaker A: Yes, and I will get to that. Like I said, it's the newspapers, but there's a reason behind what happened here. So, yeah, they got complaints about this, but also the station received a bunch of calls to congratulate them on the broadcast because people loved it and they wanted more of the stuff like that. So they called into the station to say so. So, yeah, they did get an influx of calls, but not about aliens. [00:22:57] Speaker B: No. [00:22:58] Speaker A: In a 1940 survey by Princeton's Hadley Cantrill, which already offered a listener number estimation over 100% higher than any other known measure of its audience. When people were asked about how the show had made them feel, many used words such as excited, frightened and disturbed, which were then, according to the Telegraph, conflated with panic, which is like if someone went to see a quiet place and was like, that scared me. And the evening news was like, panicked Americans think blind monsters are rampaging through the city, eating people who make sounds. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Exactly what it is, isn't it? Yeah. [00:23:34] Speaker A: Huge leap. Gigantic leap. And to your point, it is also like if newspapers and movies were in direct competition with each other. So the newspapers had ulterior motives to making the movies look bad, while reports that some 12,500 articles had been printed about the panic within a month were hugely exaggerated, and the story was in and out of the news within a day or two. The articles that did run largely condemned radio as an irresponsible medium that presented hoaxes as if they were factors. The radio was pulling advertisers away from the newspaper. So it was in the newspaper industry's best interest to convince those advertisers that they were staking their reputation on a medium that could destabilize the country with one errand. Yeah. So this didn't happen because they wanted a sensationalist headline, but because they saw an opportunity here. [00:24:34] Speaker B: The competition. Very nice. [00:24:36] Speaker A: Exactly that. Maybe we can pull some advertisers back. Maybe advertisers would be too scared to put their stuff on the radio. And be like, newspapers are safe. Meanwhile, hospitals had treated. No shock had taken in, no radio induced heart attack. Victims had heard nothing of anyone leaping from a roof in panic. New York Daily news radio editor Ben Gross wrote in his memoir that the streets of Manhattan were deserted that night. Towards the end of the broadcast, as he was headed to the CB's headquarters in his taxi, no herds of people with eyes upturned, awaiting their certain doom. [00:25:07] Speaker B: This is one of those cold opens where I now have to assimilate this into my kind of my picture of the world, right? You know? [00:25:17] Speaker A: Well, hold on. I'm gonna give you something else, okay? I am going to give you something else. And after one sentence we're gonna go. I'm gonna hit you with something here. So as Frank Stanton of CB's put it, quote, in the first place, most people didnt hear it. But those who did hear it looked at it as a prank and accepted it that way. But let me finish out by saying that while this panic never happened and weve all been lied to, id be remiss in my joag duties if I didnt point out that the war of the worlds actually did cause a panic that went so much harder than anything that was reported in our news. [00:25:59] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Are you ready, Mark? [00:26:00] Speaker B: Yes, please. [00:26:02] Speaker A: That broadcast happened about a decade after the first one, in February of 1949, when Radio Quito in Ecuador produced a spanish language version of war of the worlds. According to the Telegraph, Quito produced a or Quito police and fire brigades rushed out of town to fight the supposed alien invasion force. After it was revealed that the broadcast was fiction, the panic transformed into a riot. The riot resulted in at least seven deaths, including those of producer Leonardo Paez's girlfriend and nephew. The offices of Radio Quito and El Comercio, a local newspaper that had participated in the hoax by publishing false reports of unidentified flying objects in the days preceding the broadcast. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Oh, so good. [00:26:49] Speaker A: Both burned to the ground. [00:26:52] Speaker B: World building. It's like an AR game. They're kind of. [00:26:56] Speaker A: And the Michigan Archive describes the absolutely horrific scene in that radio station. A radio host remained at the microphone, pleading for the public with whom the radio has historically had such close relationships, to help save them, the two musicians for the play, Raul Molestina and Prefixo Alvarado, had different strategies, the latter by staying put until the firemen came and the former by jumping out of the fourth floor's window. Neither survived. Molestina was burnt to death and Alvarado sustained fatal injuries from jumping. Historyradio.org noted that the army had to be called in with tear gas to disperse the angry crowd outside. [00:27:35] Speaker B: And yet this has no cultural footprint. [00:27:38] Speaker A: None. [00:27:39] Speaker B: The colossal fucking spanish war of the worlds radio clusterfuck. [00:27:43] Speaker A: Right? Basically, in this case, they'd one upped the original by having the actual news spread false stories about UFO's, priming the public to believe that this was really happening. Because why would the news lie to them? [00:27:57] Speaker B: Oh, that's so good. [00:27:58] Speaker A: So when the show aired, presumably without the warnings that had been throughout Orson Wellesley chaos, you had an already on edge public primed to believe the aliens were coming, and then erupting into a rage when they realized their institutions had colluded to trick them, set fire to. [00:28:15] Speaker B: The building, which the old spec. [00:28:17] Speaker A: I mean, rip to those seven people, including, like, a child who died in this. But in terms of, like, how people respond to, like, their government and their news organizations lying to them. Yeah. Burn that shit down. Good job. [00:28:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:33] Speaker A: That's the right play, and we should probably be doing that. [00:28:37] Speaker B: I am keeping up my sleeve for the right moment. A prank that is, I think, gonna be both just the best and worst thing I could possibly ever do. Right? [00:28:50] Speaker A: Is it on me? [00:28:51] Speaker B: No, it's not on you. It's on Laura. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Okay. Okay, that's fine. [00:28:55] Speaker B: There's a library of really convincing. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Kind. [00:29:02] Speaker B: Of imminent nuclear attack warning news bulletins on YouTube that people have created with really good kind of BBC graphics and, you know, the really legit looking BBC or Sky or whatever channel you want to use. So I'm going to put a few on of those on around the house simultaneously on various devices, and then flip my shit and tell Laura that there's an imminent nuclear attack. And I reckon I could sell it. [00:29:28] Speaker A: I would love to see that. That would be amazing. Make sure you set up cameras or whatever, of course, because it'll be hilarious whether it works or doesn't. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One way or the other, your wife's. [00:29:40] Speaker A: Just like, fuck off, Lark, will you? So, there we go. There was a panic project. Ours is scotched. [00:29:55] Speaker B: Scotched. Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:30:00] Speaker A: Yes, please do. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, mise en scene. [00:30:05] Speaker A: I don't think anyone has ever said mise en scene in such a horny way before. [00:30:09] Speaker B: The way I whispered the word sex cannibal recently. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm fucking. I'm gonna leg it. [00:30:22] Speaker A: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:30:24] Speaker B: I think you feel great about it. Um, so in welcoming us to your favorite podcast this week. Hey, celebrate. It's Jack of all graves time. Yeah. Yes. And you've made the right fucking call in hitting play. And we thank you and we see you. But as I welcome you in this week, why don't we just take a moment to realize and acknowledge and accept and sit with the truth that we are, all of us, each of us, wherever we are on the globe, walking around in a kind of a cesspit just of filth all over us, right? A film of, you know, dead cells and fucking parasites in our follicles, you know what I mean? And germs and other people's germs and effluent and just absolute corruption all over us, all over our fucking skin, over every inch of our exposed bodies. There's this kind of almost an invading force, a miasma of filth around us at all times. Are you aware of that? [00:31:36] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, I try to not be as much as possible. [00:31:39] Speaker B: Well, it is. It is there nonetheless, right in your lungs, in your. And what this is to what jack of all graves is each week, I guess. And I'd like to extend this to you now, formalize this to you now, is an opportunity for you each week to just relax and like I said, be in it and just almost open up your paws and just welcome it in. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Okay? [00:32:00] Speaker B: Just welcome it into you become. Just let the toxicity. Let the fucking absolute corruption around you. Just inhabit you and just sit with it a little bit. Just accept it. [00:32:15] Speaker A: Or, you know, you can reframe it, you know. Listen, you're never alone. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Yeah. You'll always take from it what you want, take from it what you will, your bugs, but don't fight it because it's gonna. It's gonna exist anyway. [00:32:32] Speaker A: That's great. Thanks. [00:32:35] Speaker B: And all that said, of course, I hope you're well. How are you doing, Corey? Good. [00:32:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm doing pretty well today. A little tired. You know, we'll talk a little bit about this. A little bummed because this is officially my dog's final few days. [00:32:53] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Okay. [00:32:54] Speaker A: So, you know. But as a result of that, I'm having a good time at this weekend. Just like, me and him hanging out. You're like being bros. [00:33:03] Speaker B: So it's this weekend. Yeah. [00:33:05] Speaker A: Chillin it's this week. Yeah. Yeah, he is. He is done. Is so done. If you could tell reasonable, would you. [00:33:15] Speaker B: Be saying, for fuck sake? [00:33:17] Speaker A: Yeah, just like, why. Why are you doing this? And the only reason that, you know, he's still here is just because Keo gets back from work on Tuesday. [00:33:27] Speaker B: I see. [00:33:27] Speaker A: So, you know, Wednesday we can. We can bring him in. You know, I wasn't gonna do it on my own. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Well, I know you've done a few of them, you know. Is it. [00:33:38] Speaker A: Yeah, famously. I've put a few dogs down. If you don't know what I'm referencing, just go to our reels on. On our instagram and you can shock. Yeah. When I absolutely horrified mark by saying I had put dogs to sleep, and he thought I meant that I just murdered dogs. But, yes. So, yeah, I've been having a great weekend, just, you know, cuddling with my dog and watching movies, and I'm sure. [00:34:07] Speaker B: He'S having a great weekend. More to the point. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Yes. As good a weekend as you can have when you are a nearly dead dog. [00:34:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. When he's almost got locked in syndrome. [00:34:17] Speaker A: He'S just pretty much ever ginked his little husk of doubt, so he can't. He's, like, kind of. He's lost mobility, basically. I see. Which means you're doing the right thing, that. Yeah, yeah. It's one of those things where it's, like. Like. Cause, you know, like, I told you, like, a month ago that I was like, I think we're, you know, we're about there. And then I was like, you know, he's kind of rallied a little bit, and, like, another week he has stopped rallying, but so. So he's lost mobility. And this is, like. It's funny to watch, even though it's terrible. He can't, like, hold himself up in order to eat or whatever. So, like, largely, I have to kind of, like, hold him or prop him on something to sort of be able to eat. And if I look away for a moment, if I turn back, he'll just be, like, on his face, on his side, in, like, a plate of pumpkin mush, and he's just, like, licking sideways at the pumpkin, just like, this is fine. Just so this is. Maybe I'll choke on it. It'll be fine. [00:35:24] Speaker B: This is his last episode then, really? Is he in the background? [00:35:26] Speaker A: This is. This is. No, he's. He's sleeping in the other room. I was gonna bring him in here, but he is, for all intents and purposes, dead to the world right now. He had his. His pumpkin mush this morning, and he has been sleeping ever since. Every now and again, I, like, go in there and, like, kind of, like, look, like, prod him a little bit, right? [00:35:48] Speaker B: Hold him up to his nose. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Still good. And he's just like, maybe, like, stick his little tongue out for a second, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're good. Just go do your shit. Okay. Okay, buddy. But, yes, we'll, you know, today's episode is going to be about death. So, you know, it's a. [00:36:09] Speaker B: That is true. [00:36:10] Speaker A: It's a good time to process the loss of my little man and all of that kind of stuff. So we got that. That going. But how are you, Mark? [00:36:22] Speaker B: I'm doing great, thank you. Yes. Really nice, calm, peaceful week. I'm on top of things. Things feel good. Thank you. [00:36:30] Speaker A: Great. Love that. Everything's going well for you. [00:36:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:32] Speaker A: Things are gonna go really well for our. Whatever we. I think, great bunch of lads on ko fi because mailings are coming beautiful. [00:36:43] Speaker B: And yes, we don't want to describe them before they arrive to them, but Corey has described them to me, and they're beautiful. [00:36:49] Speaker A: Yes, I'm very excited about this particular mailing. Very joag appropriate. And, you know. Yeah, it should be a good time. So those will be getting in the mail sometimes sometime this week. So if you are on our ko fi in our highest tier, you'll be getting some mail soon. [00:37:09] Speaker B: You're also gonna get a let's play this week out of no way. The fantastic news that remedy are back. Fucking. The absolute mad lads at remedy software are back with some DLC for Alan Wake two. So you're gonna get a let's play of that in the next few days. And all because I've downloaded it and it's been a pain not playing with it. [00:37:28] Speaker A: I'm glad that you've been. You've been patient about it. I was stoked to get. [00:37:32] Speaker B: I'm deep into cowboy game, by the way. I'm deep into horse simulator two. So good. [00:37:40] Speaker A: That's. For some reason, I feel like that's, like, really having a. Is there like an expansion or something? It feels like everybody's back to playing. No. [00:37:48] Speaker B: Quite recently, it was added to the P's plus catalog, so it's free to download for the first time in months and months and months. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. [00:37:57] Speaker B: Brushing my horse, feeding my horse, braiding my horse's hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Riding my horse, giving it a carrot. [00:38:07] Speaker A: It's really all your favorite things. [00:38:09] Speaker B: Yep. [00:38:09] Speaker A: All in one place. Beautiful. Yeah. I was watching the, like, summer game thing the other day. [00:38:16] Speaker B: Oh. And I got the scoop from you. Very nice. [00:38:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, yeah, they revealed that, and I like, instantly was like, FYI. So I was, like, super stoked to get to reveal that to you as soon as it happened. So mailing's coming. Let's play. Coming. We have book club coming this weekend. The fervor by Amokatsu. So pick that up if you haven't yet. And we will be hanging out. 07:00 p.m. eastern time. 04:00 p.m. pacific time. And you'll have to figure that out anywhere else that you live. As I've mentioned before, our poor Dan is constantly sort of winging it and seeing when he shows up because he's in Australia. So, yeah, Dan takes all of the. [00:39:03] Speaker B: Shit we say about Australia on the chin and never complain. [00:39:07] Speaker A: I know. Seriously, he's never once brought up how much we should talk Australia in here and for that. Great, man. But yeah. So book club this weekend on our discord. And also on the discord, I have made a channel for people to join to sort of keep up with info about our meetup. I was going to say watch along. [00:39:32] Speaker B: And I'm like, that's not, I wondered what, where your brain was going to land. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Did you just see it? [00:39:37] Speaker B: Like your mouth kind of played out a few options? [00:39:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that was a struggle for a second there. Meet up. Yes. So trying to sort of proactively make sure people know what's going on with that. We've had, you know, DM's and things like that. People being like, what? So what's the dates and all that? And it's, yeah, it's coming on up. So if you are somewhere in the eastern United States or you're jonesing for, you know, a trip to New York or whatever the case may be, start making those flights and booking those hotels and all of that kind of stuff. But follow our discord for, you know, any updates and things like that as we go. [00:40:19] Speaker B: Tell everyone about what you're. About, what you're doing. About what? [00:40:24] Speaker A: About my tour guiding? [00:40:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:26] Speaker A: So I found out. So one of the events that we're going to do, Hailey, you're so amused by this because, like, this is deeply the most me thing imaginable. One of the things, one of the things that we're gonna do is on the Saturday of the meetup, I'm gonna take you all on a little tour in New York City. See some dark spots. See, you know, the Ghostbusters firehouse, of course, things like that. Tell you some cool New York history and things like that. So you really get a chance to, like, you know, most people are gonna come out here and they would pay for a tour or whatever. I'm saying, hey, thanks for coming. What if I give you a tour? And then you can spend the rest of your time in New York, you know, going to Broadway shows or, you know, whatever. So I'm going to give a little tour. But a thing I found out is that in order to publicly speak to people on the streets of New York City in any capacity, you need to address the public. You need to address a group on the streets of New York City. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Is there anything that cannot be monetized that cannot be right? Seriously commodified? [00:41:39] Speaker A: I mean, I guess when it comes down to it, it's, like, probably for the best. So, like, I'm sure this was born out of, like, the chaos of, like, people not, like, not knowing any of the rules and, like, darting into traffic and, like, doing all kinds of crazy shit in New York, but you have to have a tour guide license. And so I was like, okay, I guess I'll get a tour guide license, which involves a 150 question exam about New York. Like, far reaching. You got to know about the food, you got to know about the boroughs. You got to know about. [00:42:11] Speaker B: Can we do a snack on this this month? Do you want to give me some of those questions this month and see if I could become a New York City tour guide? [00:42:17] Speaker A: That sounds like fun. Maybe. Yeah, we'll snack on New York tourism. It'll be a very fun time. Yeah. So I am in the process of becoming a licensed New York state tour guide so that I can bring you all on this adventure. So, hopefully, listen, show up so that you will make this worth my while to have done this. And then I'm gonna show you my little lanyard with my little tour guide. [00:42:48] Speaker B: It would be equally as cool if it was just me and you. [00:42:53] Speaker A: I mean, like, realistically, if I were just taking you around New York City, I would wear the lanyard. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Of course you would. [00:43:00] Speaker A: I mean, come on. [00:43:02] Speaker B: Come on. [00:43:04] Speaker A: It's good. I might just wear it the whole weekend just for fun. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:08] Speaker A: But again, listen, I worked really hard for this. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Yes. More quintessential Corrigan hijinks there. Just Corrie doing Corrie stuff. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Exactly. 100% that. Like, as I was saying, I have been working on a PDF of information for people who will be coming on this as well. So once you're locked in and all that kind of stuff, and we've got everything locked down, you get a nice PDF that'll tell you all the plans and the times and the apps you need to download and where everything is and, you know, all that stuff. So listen, it's gonna be a good time, killer. Yeah. Good time with us, with the dead and lovelies. It'll be great. [00:43:49] Speaker B: Soldiers. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Anything further, Marco, before we moved on to what we watched? [00:43:54] Speaker B: No further business, your honor. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Perfect. Then let's chat about what we had on our televisions this week. [00:44:03] Speaker B: Okay, let's take a little look. Where did we leave last week? The coffee table. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yep. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. What do you got? I got the egg. Let's look. I thought there was some quality here, but there's not. I've also got one that I haven't added, which I might make. Ask me 20 questions to try and guess. [00:44:20] Speaker A: I am not doing that again. Not yet. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Am I burned out on nuns, man? [00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. I mean, even I considered after last week's conversation, I was like, maybe I'll watch Rosemary's baby. And then I, like, was looking at it. I looked at the description. I was like, this is the same movie as the other two movies I watched. [00:44:40] Speaker B: Maybe you can help me with this, right? Being, you know, with your book smarts and your, you know, your kind of your school learning and whatever. Right. Deep impact and. [00:44:50] Speaker A: Sure. [00:44:51] Speaker B: What was the other? Fucking asteroid? One. Armageddon. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Oh, sure, right. [00:44:56] Speaker B: Volcano and Dante's peak. [00:44:58] Speaker A: Sure. [00:44:59] Speaker B: Ants and a bug's life. [00:45:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:02] Speaker B: And now all the nuns. [00:45:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:06] Speaker B: The pope's exorcist. The first omen. Immaculate. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Mm hmm. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Exorcist believer. What. What causes these occasional bursts of thematic synergy in Hollywood? Why do frequently, out of nowhere, different studios come up with the same movie? [00:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, well, like I said, you know, the last several times we've talked about this, of course, when it comes to nun movies, they're just all the same movie anyway, so there's that to it. But I do think, like, culturally, like, why the, like, religious horror is coming back around. Probably has a lot to do with, like, bodily autonomy in the United States and the fact of the christofascism rising here and religion being further inserted into our politics than it has been in a long time and being very effectively inserted into our politics that I think that this moment absolutely causes people to, like, start making the horrors that are about. [00:46:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that feels plausible. [00:46:13] Speaker A: I mean, christians oppressing us. [00:46:15] Speaker B: Is it, you know, broadly, when. When the same movie seems to be made, like, at the same time by two separate companies? That happens too often for it to just be coincidental. Is it just sharing ideas? Is it. Is it skullduggery or leaks? What is it? What is that? How does that happen? [00:46:36] Speaker A: I think it is coincidence. I mean, like, if you think about it, like, say, you know, again, I think, like, we're in a, like, this is a hot topic right now kind of situation. So if people are going to make catholic religious horror, it's largely going to be the same storyline. And then you're looking at, like, remakes, right? So, like, aside from the Sidney Sweeney one remake sequels, things like that. So they're playing off of things that are already existing properties. So, like, the Sidney Sweeney one is just like a rip off of Rosemary's baby and the Omen and all of these kinds of things that already exist. And then there's an omen remake coming out at the same time. So I think it's just kind of like, you know, studios looking and being like, you know, this pitch for this thing is really timely. [00:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it goes all the way back to that Russell Crowe. Was it Russell Crowe that we saw? [00:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Fucking the pope's exorcist. There we go. It just seems, it just seems like a. More of a glut than the usual kind of. Every couple of years you'll get some nunko. [00:47:38] Speaker A: It seems like this. Yeah. And that's, that's interesting, though, because the pope's exorcist falls more along, if I recall correctly, falls more along the lines of my other category of religious horror, which is the more like celebratory of the church kind, like where the church is kind of the good guy. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Well, yeah, that was a pope or. [00:47:57] Speaker A: A church figure is the good guy. [00:48:01] Speaker B: The church was the fucking men in black organization. Wasn't it just? [00:48:04] Speaker A: Right, yeah, exactly. So we've definitely got two ends of this thing happening. [00:48:10] Speaker B: I mean, all of which is to say that that's way more conversation than I was expecting to get out of the exorcist believer, which is. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I have not heard good things about that. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Tepid. Absolutely. Tepid as fuck. Nothing. No material likely to challenge or, you know, it's dull. It's very dull. There you go. And I am burned. [00:48:30] Speaker A: I love Leslie Odom. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Well, I. And I like Alan Burson. [00:48:35] Speaker A: There you go. [00:48:36] Speaker B: A great deal. [00:48:37] Speaker A: But that's kind of a waste to bring her back and then use like a terrible movie. [00:48:42] Speaker B: Exactly. It's, it's all very stock, I would describe it as. It's just they've rummaged around in the fucking nunko box of surprises. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:50] Speaker B: And done a few of them and, nah, nothing nothing. Nothing to write home about. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. I'm not on my list at all. [00:49:00] Speaker B: No. [00:49:01] Speaker A: I subjected myself to enough religious heart, and that's one that's like. Yeah, it's just not there. [00:49:05] Speaker B: Yeah. If you were to ask me, you know, in. In hindsight, why did I bother? I could not tell you any earthly reason why. [00:49:15] Speaker A: You just got into a zone. [00:49:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was. It was quicker to come out rather. [00:49:21] Speaker A: Than go through, try to go around. [00:49:24] Speaker B: Yep. So I thought, look, I've gotta. I've gotta just suck it up and. [00:49:28] Speaker A: Watch Bear went over the mountain dead. I get it. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:32] Speaker A: So don't go. I got in a zone this week, actually. I asked you to put the fugitive on Plex. And this is just one of those things where, like, I've lately really been jonesing for, like, sort of, like, the nineties thriller. Cause it's just like, I've had that thing where I'm like, I want to watch a movie that's like a movie. You know? Like, it really feels like a movie. And a nineties thriller is, like, the ultimate in that to me. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:50:08] Speaker A: And so I was like, I've never. Well, I don't know if that's true. I want to say I've never seen at least all of the fugitive. There are certain scenes in it that I remember watching, like, when it aired on tv and stuff like that, that were, like, really vividly I remembered them. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Were that mood to occur to me. I think I would reach for something by John Woo. I think I would reach for face off or something like that. [00:50:29] Speaker A: Sure. I love face off. I mean, I watch that one fairly regularly. I wish. [00:50:34] Speaker B: It's been a while. I mean, I know it inside out, but it has been a while. What a film, by the way. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Like, you know, even, like, something like, con air too. Like those weird, like, Nicolas Cage things from that time. Did you say? [00:50:46] Speaker B: I. I did. I. [00:50:48] Speaker A: A y e. Yeah, no, I got it. My dad used to say that. I don't hear that a whole heck of a lot, but. Yeah, but I think the thing was, like, there's a lot of, like, nineties stores that kind of go back to over and over again, and then there's, like, a stock of them that, like, I have not seen or only saw bits of on tv when I was a kid. And the fugitive is absolutely one of those. And so I decided to put that on and found it absolutely delightful. I mean, just Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones being, like, peak them in these movies, which one of the things that I think is, like, great is Harrison Ford. Irl comes off as real degaff about being an actor. Right. [00:51:40] Speaker B: He does. That feels cultivated, though. That feels affected. I think he definitely plays himself, doesn't he? [00:51:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And then when you watch his movies, you're like, this is a guy who likes doing this. This is an actor. And so I was just thinking about, like, the public Persona of Harrison Ford versus the guy you watch in a movie. [00:52:03] Speaker B: Let me like this. Let me super quickly ask you then, outside of, what's your favorite Harrison Ford role that isn't Star War or an indie? [00:52:14] Speaker A: Oh, geez. It's difficult for me to think on the spot of these kinds of things. Yeah. And, like, of course, the only things that pop into my head are, like, things I don't like, like what lies beneath and stuff like that, which I can't remember if I've said this on. On here, but I've said this a million times. When I'm picking a horror podcast, the first episode I listen to is always the what lies beneath episode to determine whether I want to continue listening to it. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Is that so? [00:52:45] Speaker A: Like, that it's. Yeah, it's like what someone's take on that movie says a lot about them. And that was, you know, that was what I did with dead and lovely, listened to what lies beneath, and they were like, they know this movie sucks. Okay, fine. Let's go on. But anyways. Yeah, I'm not sure. Off the top of my head, do you have one that you think of off the top of your head? [00:53:06] Speaker B: As soon as I asked you, I tried to find one of my own, and I came up blank. I couldn't think of anything. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know why. It's like, I feel like I've seen many Harrison Ford movies, and for whatever reason, my mind just went, like, a complete blank on what they are. But the fugitive was a great time. I'd probably put that up on the list, you know, Harrison Ford on the run, trying to prove his innocence in the death of his wife and doing it kind of all wrong. Well, meanwhile, there's, like, allegedly a one armed man who is responsible for it, which sounds so deeply made up. And on the other hand, you've got Tommy Lee Jones as this, like, just asshole ranger who's out to, like, find him and, like, doesn't give a shit about anything or anyone and is, like, making quips and all this kind of stuff. Just like, this total cocky douchebag quippin the whole time. Just quippin like nobody's business. So I watched that, and then, of course, what came up, like, on letterboxd as, like, related, was double jeopardy, which is basically the same movie. Tommy Lee Jones, again, out to find someone. This time he's, like, a parole officer. [00:54:21] Speaker B: That's one of his other Jones's other roles. [00:54:26] Speaker A: Yes. [00:54:26] Speaker B: Bring your parole officer, sheriff. [00:54:30] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yep. Like, FBI ish person. Like, in men in black. Right. So Ashley Judd is framed for the murder of her husband by her husband in, like, sort of a gone girl sort of scenario. And, you know, he goes off and sort of starts a new life while she goes to prison for this. But while in prison, someone's like, you know, you can't be tried for the same crime twice. And, like, after you've already been, like, convicted of it, you can't be tried for that again, of course. And so double jeopardy manages to, you know, get parole and then goes on a journey to try to murder her husband for real this time. And this movie. Everything about it is completely implausible. Like, there's no fucking way that's how double jeopardy works. And it's like, the movie knows it. Like, there's a point in this where, like, Tommy Lee Jones, like, says something like. Like. And as a former lawyer, I can confirm that's true. Or something like that. He knows you, looks it up in a big leather boat. They know you're at home going, I don't think that's how it works. Is this law? No, no, no. This is for sure how it works. You could definitely murder your husband and not get in trouble for it, but it doesn't matter because the whole movie, she's broken parole and is breaking tons of laws that would throw her in jail again anyway. So, like, there's no. This is all. There's no point in any of this double jeopardy nonsense because she should be thrown in jail for the rest of her life for, like, breaking a million other laws. [00:56:11] Speaker B: I see. [00:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Afterwards, all in violation of her release. And it's like the. Like, Bruce Greenwood plays her husband, and it's like he just moves to San Francisco and, like, becomes, like, a rich, famous guy again. But, like, no one's like, is that the same guy? And then he, like, he kills another woman and then just moves to New Orleans and becomes a rich, famous guy again. I'm like, no. Like, okay, there's. I know there's no facebook, but, like, come the fuck on. Are you serious? Oh, it's such a great time. Watch double Jeopardy. It makes no sense how did. [00:56:52] Speaker B: Where was the on ramp onto that bit of conversation? How did we get there? [00:56:57] Speaker A: I was just talking about what movies I watched. [00:56:59] Speaker B: So you've seen that this week? That's like a Harrison Ford. You've seen Double Jeopardy? [00:57:03] Speaker A: I watched the fugitive, and then I. [00:57:04] Speaker B: Thought you just hailed off. I really did. I thought you just got there. [00:57:12] Speaker A: No, I watched the fugitive, and then Letterbox told me to watch Double Jeopardy. [00:57:16] Speaker B: Okay. [00:57:17] Speaker A: I watched double jeopardy afterwards, and I feel great about both of those movies. The Fugitive is a much better movie than double jeopardy is. But listen, double jeopardy is so stupid. You can't be mad at it. You just gotta. You just gotta go for the ride. [00:57:31] Speaker B: Um, in a similar vein, stung every now and again. Look, it's such a thrill, and it will continue to be a thrill until my eyes and ears give up and I can no longer see or enjoy movies. But it's so nice to take a fucking roll of the dice on a movie you've never heard of before and have it turn out to be not dreadful and quite entertaining. [00:57:53] Speaker A: Yes. You liked this one a lot more than I did. But. Yeah, there were. But it's a. I thought it was funny that you like. This is the second week in a row we've watched, like, a creature movie. [00:58:03] Speaker B: I. Well, I like the monsters, don't I? You know this. [00:58:06] Speaker A: Yeah. You love monsters, and for some reason, we don't watch a ton of them. [00:58:09] Speaker B: Well, let's change that up. By all means. I could watch a fucking monster all day long, right? [00:58:14] Speaker A: I was like, this is. You're. You're having the best time. This isn't even a very good movie. And you're loving life. Like, we should watch more creature movies. And this. I mean, there's some gore and craziness in this movie. That's pretty fun. It's a movie about some giant wasps who were attacked by giant wasps. Yeah, basically, that's all you need to know at a big party. The only. Here's my, like, two things about this movie that, like, kind of tanked my enjoyment of it. A. Like, it's. It's 2014, I think, something like that. So it's on that cusp of, like, where it's still kind of the 22 thousands and 2010s, like, misogyny and douchebaggery in it. [00:58:57] Speaker B: Yes, you are correct. It was 2015, so. Yes, you are 2015. [00:59:01] Speaker A: Yeah. So the, like, male lead in it is terrible. And I said at the beginning of this, if they get together, I'm going to be very mad because she knew he was awful. The whole beginning. [00:59:11] Speaker B: There's no awful. He doesn't kind of. [00:59:13] Speaker A: There's no arc. He's just good at killing murder wasps and, like, that's enough. And they get together at the end. And so that was. That upset me. And the other thing is, this is like basic screenwriting right here. There's a moment in this film where he's, like, trying to make her feel better, the female lead. And he asks her, what? Oh, God, I can't remember the joke. But he asks her a joke, begins a joke about. [00:59:44] Speaker B: Oh, yes, yes, I remember. [00:59:46] Speaker A: And I don't remember what is. But let's just say it's. What's a bee's favorite movie? It was something. [00:59:50] Speaker B: I think. I even think it might have been. [00:59:52] Speaker A: That, you know, it might have been, what's a bee's favorite movie? And then they get interrupted and, you know, chaos breaks out and he doesn't get to finish the joke. So if. If you're a screenwriter writing this movie, what then happened? Where do we go with this? Right? [01:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:10] Speaker A: End of the movie, they're sitting together in an ambulance having kind of an awkward moment. You know, it's like they're about to kiss or whatever and things like that. But there's like a moment where they don't know what to do. Yeah, what to do. [01:00:21] Speaker B: It's on a plate, isn't it? It's on a plate. [01:00:23] Speaker A: It's on a plate. Turn to her, say, what's a bee's favorite movie? And either finish the joke or have her say, fuck, I don't care. And they kiss or credits roll or whatever. Right? But you have to come back to that joke. You can't just leave that sitting there. And I was just so angry with that little. Just. [01:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah, rightly so. You point it out and it seems. [01:00:51] Speaker A: You got the callback right there. And you don't go for it. What are you doing? What are you doing? [01:00:56] Speaker B: Uh, well. What are you doing? You need to write a movie, clearly. [01:01:00] Speaker A: Well, that's true. [01:01:01] Speaker B: I'm the change you see in the world. [01:01:03] Speaker A: Jump on with me. That's all. [01:01:05] Speaker B: Okay. I'll be in it. Obviously. I'll be performing in it. [01:01:09] Speaker A: Well, clearly. [01:01:13] Speaker B: Let me see. Was there anything else? There was. Under Paris? [01:01:17] Speaker A: We both. Yes. Yeah. We both watched under Paris, the shark movie that's taking the Internet by storm. [01:01:26] Speaker B: So. Look, I watch everything with subtitles. As do you, I believe. As does anyone. You don't automatically put the subs on, do you know? [01:01:36] Speaker A: Well, you know I hate subtitles. [01:01:38] Speaker B: I know you hate subtitles. That you're forced into watching. [01:01:42] Speaker A: Right? Yes. In this case, it automatically started with the dub. Did it do that for you? [01:01:50] Speaker B: No, it didn't. [01:01:52] Speaker A: Okay. It's american. Netflix always starts you with the dub. I see a dub for something, and then you have to switch it away from it. And part way through the movie, I was like, man, this is, like, so one note and boring. It must be the sound. And so I switched it to the subtitles, and it turned out that's just the movie. [01:02:10] Speaker B: Yes, but. Right. I watch everything with subtitles. That's where I was going with this. And within the first 30 seconds to a minute, one of the subtitles says, shark growls. Right. The f. Oh, no, it does. Sharks don't fucking. I don't give a fuck how mutant they are. Right. And that's how it starts. That's the premise. That's the baseline of credulity, which this film kind of kicks off from. And it only gets worse. I. I only watched it after seeing who the director was. [01:02:43] Speaker A: That seems to be what has tricked a lot of people. [01:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Javier Ghent, who did a fantastic french horror movie about a decade ago called Frontiers Frontier. Really uncompromising, really fucking. There was a kind of a french core at a minute there, didn't it? Where there was some really fucking brutal kind of french horror that came along at, like, a decade or so ago in frontiers was one of those. But in a kind of a massive episode of lost promise or missed potential. He's done fuck all with it since, you know, music, tv episodes, just fill her stuff. So I came to under Paris with a certain optimism. [01:03:30] Speaker A: Right? [01:03:31] Speaker B: Is that what this is? You know, is this gonna be a little sleeper hit? Some brutality, but within 30 seconds, we had a roaring shark, so. [01:03:41] Speaker A: And listen, like, I can accept stupidity like that, right? But you have to, like, keep that energy. The problem with this movie is, like, it takes itself very seriously, but not in a fun way, like a Sci-Fi channel movie or what. [01:03:58] Speaker B: Like deep blue sea, you mean, you know? [01:04:00] Speaker A: Right. Or deep blue sea. Yeah, right. Like, so if you're gonna be like, all right, I have growling sharks, and they're, like, under. They're in the subways, and now they're underneath the. And all this kind of stuff. Fine, but then that's insane. So this movie needs to be insane. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:04:15] Speaker A: And it's not. [01:04:16] Speaker B: No, not at all. [01:04:17] Speaker A: It's like just watching shark scientists and the Coast Guard or whatever, talk about shark science and Coast Guard. But then it's not well researched either. There's a shark scientist that people may know from. From Twitter. And he's on blue sky as well. David. David Schiffman. I can't think of what his name is. Anyone like, you would know who he is. If you follow. If you know a shark scientist on the Internet, it's this guy. And he like, did like a. He was like, people keep asking me, fine, I will do a threat. [01:04:53] Speaker B: I think I have read this. Yes. [01:04:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And, like, it's just everything on a basic level is wrong in this movie. And it's like, again, fine, but then do something with that. Like, it can't be boring and wrong if you're gonna go wrong. Like, crank it to eleven. [01:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah, completely. Or, you know, I mentioned deep blue sea very intentionally because that could have. That vibe in this movie would have been perfect. [01:05:22] Speaker A: Right, exactly. [01:05:25] Speaker B: But that is not deep blue sea. [01:05:27] Speaker A: The mega things like that. Like. Yeah, you know what I mean? Go in. You know, that's. [01:05:30] Speaker B: That piranha, for fuck's sake. That kind of vibe. Put some titty in it. That would have been more entertaining than what the. What we got. [01:05:37] Speaker A: It's got Bernice Bejo in it. It was not gonna be a titty flick. She's like a respectable actress. [01:05:43] Speaker B: Yes. [01:05:44] Speaker A: She's in an Oscar winning movie. [01:05:48] Speaker B: That's not a solution that I recommend to, you know, put some titty in. It isn't something I genuinely fall back on. But what I'm saying is. [01:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, the point is. [01:05:57] Speaker B: What I'm saying is there are, you know, Sci-Fi shark core movies that are entertaining. And deep blue Seine, which I'm fucking coining, is not that. It is not entertaining at all. So, you know, maybe it should have tried to take a leaf out of a better movies book. [01:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah. It needed to be worse or it needed to be better. [01:06:21] Speaker B: There you go, space. There you fucking go. Yes. Commit to the bit. [01:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So no recommendations on under Paris here. But you watch it anyway because everybody's watching it. [01:06:32] Speaker B: You gotta just. [01:06:32] Speaker A: It's there. [01:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:34] Speaker A: You know, it is the Mount Everest of Netflix movies. It's just there. [01:06:39] Speaker B: It's simply there. I also watched the Strangers part one, the beginning of the Strangers. I do know it says everything that I haven't even put on letterbox. It left no impact. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Yes, it is. It's so. Oh, did I. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, did I talk about it last week or did I not log it either? [01:07:00] Speaker B: Um. You've mentioned it. I don't know if it was just to me or on the cast. But you've certainly mentioned it as being. [01:07:06] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [01:07:06] Speaker B: Dog egg. [01:07:07] Speaker A: Did I just. Yeah, it's awful. It's just a bad remake of the original Strangers movie meant only to start a new Strangers franchise. Basically. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Yes. When you can see them fucking, you know, you. When you can see the business plan behind the movie. When you can see the fucking timeline and the spreadsheet. Yeah. It's serves no purpose, does it? [01:07:35] Speaker A: I did not talk about this because there's like, multiple things in this that I just need to get out, please. Okay. Because. Okay, one thing, like, one of the problems, like you said, like, you can see the marketing plan with this whole thing. And this movie is a movie that no one gave a shit about because it's not important. It's just there to jumpstart the next. No one asked for this, the strangers. Right. And so, like, one of the, like, most, like, did not give a shit things in this movie is there is a british actor in this who plays a mechanic. Right. Where does a mechanic work? [01:08:09] Speaker B: In a garage. [01:08:11] Speaker A: In a garage? [01:08:13] Speaker B: Fixing cars. British fixing cars, my lady. [01:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah, if you're british. [01:08:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:18] Speaker A: Not if you're american. [01:08:20] Speaker B: Okay. [01:08:21] Speaker A: No one told him that. So multiple times this backwoods Oregon mechanic talks about his garage, which is not a thing we say here. Like, no one at any point was like, I think a mechanic would know how to say garage. [01:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:37] Speaker A: You know, like, I think. I don't think he'd say it like that. It's like, no one gave a shit in this movie. No one was like, maybe we should tell the british guy how to pronounce this word that has to do with his job. [01:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And did he say it? He dropped garage in an american accent. [01:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Like he's talking an american accent the whole time, but he says, garage. [01:09:02] Speaker B: Wonderful. [01:09:04] Speaker A: I need to take the car back to my garage. The fuck. [01:09:08] Speaker B: Oh, that's just English Bob. That's just English Mike. Don't worry about it. [01:09:13] Speaker A: He came here as a child. That word just, you know, stuck. I don't think it's so ridiculous. And then the other thing with this movie is that, like, I always say that the thing about home invasion movies that makes them scary is like that it feels like it could happen to you. Right? Like, especially, like, with the strangers. It's like, it's just, you know what the thing about the strangers that makes it. [01:09:37] Speaker B: Everyone remembers a kind of a home invasion story on the news, for example. They do happen. Do take place. [01:09:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And you hear the noises around your house and things like that. And you're like, it makes your imagination, you know, act up and you think this is happening to you. And so, like, the original strangers is like, scary, you know, because it's like, it's dealing with this idea that, like, listless kids with nothing better to do would do this just because you were home. Right. And thus, you know, it feels like this could happen. This stranger, these invaders have superpowers. So it's like 1 second they can be standing behind you, and then you run your hand through your hair and they're gone. Or, you know, they're like, at your door and then they're 100ft away in the woods and stuff like that. And it's like, that can't happen to me. Home invaders can't attack me. So, like, this isn't scary. [01:10:32] Speaker B: The magical stranger. [01:10:34] Speaker A: The magical strangers, like, who the fuck cares? You know? So there's, like, no element of realism in this. And the other thing that I mentioned in our ko fi episode about the strangers was that another thing that's so effective about the original strangers is that until they start getting tired and panicky, they're largely making the right decisions and things keep on not working out for them. And that's a terrifying idea in contrast. [01:11:03] Speaker B: To something like a movie that I know you love. Funny games where it feels as though in both iterations of that movie, they. Yeah, they. They. They don't follow the playbook, man. They did the wrong fucking thing. [01:11:14] Speaker A: Right. [01:11:14] Speaker B: It's very different. [01:11:15] Speaker A: Exactly. And so, like, you know, it's terrifying to think you could keep on doing the right thing. And these people are always a step ahead of you. Whereas the new strangers, these people are the dumbest human beings on the planet, including when, like, the home invasion has already started. The girl just takes the time to sit and have a beer and a joint. What? [01:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:11:38] Speaker A: What are you doing? Are you kidding me? It's just so stupid. Oh. Makes me angry. And I wanted to go see in a violent nature and decided instead to go see the strangers. [01:11:53] Speaker B: Listen, thank you, right? Thank you for waiting for me for a violent nature because I'm desperate to see it and I think it's one that we should consume together. [01:12:00] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. I did ask, and you acted indifferent to it. I was like, should I save it for you? And you were like, meh, do what you want. Then I went and saw the strangers and it was terrible. So just know, even with your indifference, I did that for you. You are the best strangers instead. [01:12:19] Speaker B: And again, very telling that neither of us have even bothered letterboxing it neither of us have fucking bothered writing it down. [01:12:24] Speaker A: Just completely forgot that it even existed, Tara, even though I clearly have a lot of feelings about it. Yeah, it was much like forgetting to talk about civil war when I, like, have deep rage about that. [01:12:36] Speaker B: Maybe I could quite happily never watch another nun corps movie again. [01:12:42] Speaker A: Good. Yeah, I feel great about that. You already have seen them all? [01:12:46] Speaker B: All of them by now. [01:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:47] Speaker B: It's gonna be a special film that brings me back to nuncore. [01:12:51] Speaker A: Right. That isn't the same plot. Again, the only other things that I watched, the Guillermo del Toro movie, his first one. Kronos. [01:13:04] Speaker B: Yes. [01:13:06] Speaker A: Which I had never seen before. I did not like it. [01:13:12] Speaker B: I'd be hard pressed to remember it. I know I've seen it. I remember a climactic kind of battle on a rooftop in the rain, possibly. I know I've seen the movie, but I couldn't. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Yeah, this is one of those ones that must have come from, like, your handwritten list, because you do have it logged on letterbox, but you don't have a rating on it. It's kind of an unorthodox vampire movie about an old man who finds this. [01:13:37] Speaker B: Scarab kind of thing, isn't it? [01:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah, like a scarab sort of thing that he kind of latches it to his body and it turns him into this bloodthirsty monster of sorts. It's so weird. It's like, just like, the entire time, I felt like I was just like, what's going on? [01:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:03] Speaker A: And it was one of those ones that it was like I had to look at letterbox reviews afterwards and be like, am I dumb, or is this, like, a super confusing movie? And sure enough, there are other people who are like, I don't know what happened in this movie. It's got ideas, for sure. [01:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:17] Speaker A: But, like, it's like, it's certainly the seeds of something and not, like, fully formed. Like, okay, I see how this guy is going to become the GDT that we all know and love, but he is not there yet. [01:14:31] Speaker B: Aye, it's critically acclaimed, I believe. I think a lot of people like Kronos. [01:14:36] Speaker A: I mean, I feel like. I don't know about, like, critics critically acclaimed, but, I mean, it's kind of middling when it comes to the letterbox. People were like, it's a masterpiece, and there's people who hate it. I think it's got, like, a low threes his score on it. So it's not like, yeah, it's certainly not like his later stuff that is, you know, more widely celebrated but now, you know, I have seen, I think that's the. Oh, that and the circus y one are the only GDT movies. [01:15:06] Speaker B: I don't like the Circus y one. [01:15:10] Speaker A: I can never remember the name of this, and this is not the first time that this happened. [01:15:13] Speaker B: Is this one with Bradley. [01:15:14] Speaker A: Bradley Cooper, right. [01:15:16] Speaker B: Midnight. There you go. [01:15:19] Speaker A: Nightmare alley. [01:15:19] Speaker B: There you go. [01:15:20] Speaker A: That's the one that sucked. But otherwise, I generally a big fan of him. [01:15:25] Speaker B: No joke or exaggeration, I have attempted to watch midnight, fucking paradise, circus alley on no less than three occasions and fallen asleep each time. Never seen it through. [01:15:35] Speaker A: Yep. You're not missing anything there. But yeah, then I watched a couple docs. I watched the moviepass documentary. Moviepass, movie crash, which is, you know, it tells the story. Yep. So if you're interested in what happened with Moviepass, if you had a movie pass, it's worth checking out. I was a movie pass obsessive. So it was just in a sentence. [01:15:59] Speaker B: What is that? [01:16:01] Speaker A: Oh, movie pass. [01:16:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:03] Speaker A: Movie pass was a little credit card type thing that you could get that for $10 a month. You could watch three movies a week. Actually, no, in the beginning it was, you could watch a movie every single day, one movie every 24 hours in the theater with this little card, and it like, blew up and everybody was getting their movie pass going to see movies with it. What's interesting in this, I did not know it was initially a black owned company and these two guys had this whole vision for it. And then these two white assholes came in and just fucking tanked. [01:16:46] Speaker B: Son of a bitch. [01:16:46] Speaker A: The entire thing. Those guys are still in various lawsuits and all kinds of stuff regarding this, this whole situation and everything. But, yeah, it was like huge. And honestly, it changed. Like how we see movies in the United States. Movies had to change as a result. Like AMC and probably other, I think regal does this too. You now have memberships more expensive than that. But like $26 a month. [01:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:15] Speaker A: You can see three movies every week, right? Like, you know, things like that. That, like, that wouldn't have happened. Movie Pass forced its hand by having. [01:17:24] Speaker B: This every chain bar view, which is the only one I would fucking want, you know, some kind of subscription service to because it's a five minute walk into town. But Odion. Odion do some kind of loyalty cards and he will do, you know, I. I would love, love a monthly, you know, any kind of service I could contribute to vu two every month and get to just walk in as I please. [01:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And just go see whatever. Yeah, it was great. And that's now, like, that model only exists because of moviepass. It would all be the same as it used to be if it weren't for what moviepass did there. And so, yeah, movie pass, movie crash details, you know, how they started, what their vision was for it, and all that kind of stuff. [01:18:09] Speaker B: Will they do you think? I mean, what? I'm quite eager for a disruptor, Corrie. I'm quite eager for something to fucking upend where things are currently in terms of how we are served and how we consume and how we pay for media. [01:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, the problem is everything was disrupted and now it's coming back around to the old models. But worse is the issue, people disrupted and were like, hey, what if we gave you this? And now they're like, that wasn't actually profitable. Let's just sell it back to you for more. [01:18:47] Speaker B: Well, you know, much like I said earlier on about having to pay and register and qualify to be able to just address the public in New York, all I'm gonna sound like is just an old prick while I'm saying this, but me and Peter earlier on, sat down and played Street Fighter five a little bit, right? It was on, you know, download it for free. La la. And literally only, like, eight or twelve of 30 odd characters was playable without grind and unlock and pay to get the others. And I hate it. I just absolutely fucking hate it. I hate the worst. I hate how things are rented to us piecemeal. I hate it. I fucking hate it. [01:19:36] Speaker A: And it's, you know what's even more galling is it's the huge triple A studios and stuff like that that are doing that. The ones that don't need the money. If devolver wanted to do that with, you know, cult of the lamb or something, fine. Like, you know, they keep giving me free expressions expansions on that game, and I buy little character packs just to, like, support them, you know? But, like, it's these companies that, like, don't need the money and aren't paying the people who work for them more for this and are just like, you know, getting unlimited funds from us. Like, that is what is so galling about that model just being, yeah, sucked dry over things that, yeah, don't help anybody. [01:20:18] Speaker B: Digital delivery is not without its benefits. Right? Like, literally, earlier on in this very self same episode, you can buy a game and get updates and new stuff for that game years after it's, you know, extending its relevancy in its shelf life. Like, I'm about to do that. Week two. Can't wait, but if the trade off is, you know, like, the cyberpunk affair, which I guarantee you is a movie waiting to happen, you know. [01:20:44] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. [01:20:46] Speaker B: Movies about things. About things so hot right now, the cyberpunk fucking Farago will definitely happen. But if you can just release unfinished games and, you know, bits of games and then rent them out, you know, in. In strips. I hate it. I just give. Give me the thing. Don't tease the thing or rent me the thing or chop up the thing to get me to pay in bits for the thing. Just let me buy the thing. Give me the thing. [01:21:16] Speaker A: Like, not even having the option to do buy the complete thing is what's really frustrating. [01:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:23] Speaker A: You know, it's like how now, like, movies just don't come out on Blu ray or dvd or anything like that. Tv shows don't come out, and it's like you don't even have the option to pay to own the thing. You can only rent the thing at their pleasure. Yes. So frustrating. Fully. And you're right. We need new models for this or old models. [01:21:45] Speaker B: Bring the old models back, whatever. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Just not the way things are. [01:21:51] Speaker B: If we're yearning for new models, that's probably not the most pressing. If we're going to sort anything out, maybe that can take a number. [01:22:01] Speaker A: Well, listen, when we're stuck in our ready player one world. [01:22:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:07] Speaker A: Will have wished we addressed this sooner. [01:22:10] Speaker B: We will. [01:22:13] Speaker A: Then. The other thing that I watched was dancing for the devil, the seven M TikTok cult, which, as with every documentary, is more episodes than it needs to be. And also the thing about this. So I had watched stuff about this on YouTube. I'd watched a youtuber unpack some of this, and it's like a dance cult, essentially, this guy who, like, created, like, a management company for all these TikTok dancers who had, like, millions of followers. Let's, like, put you in a house and we're gonna like. But he was, like a Christian. So all these, like, you know, dancers became very heavily involved in his, like, church and all this kind of stuff. And it was like a ministry and all that. And there's specifically, like, kind of the focus is these two sisters who were dancers and were really close, and they did everything together and all that. And then over the course of one of them got more involved in the cult, kind of cut off her family and, you know, doesn't really talk much to them anymore. And, you know, for a long time, didn't talk to them at all. And just like, cold turkey was like, you know, as happens with people in cults. But there's, like, a b story here that should be the a story of these other asian sisters. And I'm trying to think they might be korean. I'm not entirely sure, but they're, like, immigrants. And the leader of this cult is an asian man. And this one woman was like, both of the sisters were in the cult for a long time, but one of the sisters was in it for 23 years and was basically raped by this guy for years. And then the last straw to her leaving was when his wife came in and started, like, beating her and, you know, tearing all her stuff up, being like, that's my husband, and all this kind of stuff. Like, she's not. It's not. She doesn't want this. It's not her fault, you know, but other people were talking about, like, all of the, like, you know, he was grooming other people and, you know, basically sexually abusing all these other people in the cult and all that. And so, like, that is the interesting story here. And, like, the one that's, like, more horrific. But the cult focuses on these two pretty white girls and her rich family that is upset that she's not talking to them or whatever for most of this. And this is a very strong example of that white victim sort of thing where it's like, oh, we're more interested in the pretty white girls than actual women of color who are being. And men of color, too. There's a lot of black men involved in this as well, who are coming out and talking about the horrible things that happened in that. It's like, why are we spending so much of this documentary talking about this girl who won't talk to her family when there's people actually being sexually abused and having their money stolen from them and things like that by this guy? So it's an interesting doc. I just think, as is Netflix, the focus is all wrong. [01:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it strikes me in that instance that you, the audience doesn't need an avatar to tell that story through, you know, I mean, if there's enough fucking. [01:25:26] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:25:27] Speaker B: Horrific stuff to. It should be relevant to everybody without it needing. [01:25:31] Speaker A: Right. [01:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:32] Speaker A: Somebody, at least you hope, like, unfortunately, probably not. They need to see white TikTokers that they follow the drama of on there to get them interested in this story. But, you know, you want to think people would be upset by this and interested in this without having to surrogate her. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, that and that. And I went and saw babes, which is a horror movie because it's about pregnancy. Babes and. Babes. Yeah. Ilana Glaser. [01:26:03] Speaker B: What a movie she. [01:26:05] Speaker A: Yeah, movie she. [01:26:06] Speaker B: Why would you go and see a movie like that? [01:26:08] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I like Ilana Glazer, and there were no horror movies in the theater, so I was like, I want to go see a movie. So I went and saw babes. And it is very funny. It drags a bit. Once the sort of, like, conflict hits two thirds of the way through. But there were times I was laughing so hard that I was, like, snorting and crying. And I was very glad that I was the only person in the theater because it was. [01:26:32] Speaker B: I can't remember the last time I was paralyzed, like, rendered immobile by laughter. [01:26:38] Speaker A: It's like one of those movies that has, like, it's like the stupid moments, you know? It's like, I just love when something hits you with, like, just the stupidest thing you could possibly imagine. [01:26:48] Speaker B: You know, it's a zone that I love. Just. [01:26:52] Speaker A: Yeah, so it's a, it's a movie with a lot of great dumb moments in it that's, you know, it's fun. So, babes, hey, check it out. If I can watch it, and I don't like anything having to do with babies uteruses. You can. Yeah. Don't want to know anything about what's going on in that weird alien system happening there. So horrible. It's one of those movies that's, like, validating on either end. Like, if you're, like a parent, like, if you're a mom, especially, but if you're a parent in general and, like, you know, you're tired and exhausted and, like, feel like you want to give up sometimes. This movie has, like, stuff in there for you. And if you're like me and you're like, fuck, no, I do not want anything to do with this. Validating for you too. It's got something for everybody. [01:27:44] Speaker B: Excellent. That, that might be, that might be what I need. I need to laugh. [01:27:50] Speaker A: There you go. [01:27:51] Speaker B: Yes. Because. Because am I wistful? Is that why. Is that why I've called tonight's kind of topic to mind? Is that why I'm on this fucking tip? Isn't that wistful? I don't think I mentioned this last week, but a week or so ago, I was at a funeral. A good friend of mine, very, very good old friend of mine from South Wales very, very sadly died. So, I mean, and it kind of puts one in a very particular mindset of funeral. Right. You can't. It can't be denied. It puts one in a very particular mode way of thinking. And as I am often tended to, do, I. You know, my mind goes to the fucking fleeting nature of what this is. The transient, the fucking blink and you miss it. Just this glimpse of life that we. That we get right and how to fucking extend it after you die. After you die, man. One thing that Mike was a. My friend. Mike was a deeply, deeply, deeply loved fella. He's completely unique. Once met, never forgotten, right? And that was so evident in. In both the service and in, you know, just. Just chatting amongst friends like we did afterwards. But I often return. There's a saying that no doubt many will have heard. It's one that's commonly repeated on the Internet, that there's. That second death, isn't there? That when you. When your name is no longer uttered, when your memory has fucking vanished, when no one fucking. You know, when you've. You've just been kind of. Your memory has been bred out almost through time and through the natural order of life continuing. Right. Think what you will about Hitchens. Right, Christopher Hitchens. [01:29:47] Speaker A: Sure. [01:29:48] Speaker B: Um. He's. He's somebody who often pops into my tick tocks, right? He's. He's somebody who the algorithm has decided. [01:29:57] Speaker A: People make Christopher Hitchens tick tocks. [01:30:00] Speaker B: Oh, are you fucking kidding me? He's atheist. TikTok is huge. Um. You Matt Dillahunty? [01:30:08] Speaker A: I don't think so. I try to stay away from the religious atheists. They're just. All those new atheist people are just toxic. Don't want anything to do with it. If I can avoid knowing this, they don't want any of them. [01:30:21] Speaker B: This one, the fellow I just mentioned there, guy by the name of Matthew Dillahanty, he's got like an online call in show, okay. Much like a kind of a atheist. James O'Brien, I don't know who that is. A british political broadcaster on LBC who is. Who will, who will. He's his kind of stock in trade. His approach is when Tories ring his fucking show and complain about how Britain needs its rules back and needs its sovereignty back and will benefit so much from this political move, of that political move, he'll just quite simply ask, so what law in particular are you looking forward to getting back then? And things fall apart from there. And this guy, Matt Dillahanty, takes the same approach with. With theists in his atheism. He'll be very kind of forensic. All of which is to say, I saw Hitchens recently saying that, look, I'm cool with the idea that life ends and the party ends, right? There's this fantastic party we're all a part of. We're all invited to just by being alive, but that it ends, but that's not the case. The party carries on. The party doesn't end. You do. You have to leave. And that's. That contextualizes it nicely for me. It's. It's this idea that the party goes on when you've left the fucking room, but without you. That's the fucking reality of it, isn't it? And it. It got me wondering, how. How do you extend that time before your second death? How do you fucking push that window back before it happens? And what. How can one leave? Impact? How can one leave? Who do you think has done it in our lifetime, Corey? Is there anyone who you can think of in our lives, in whatever realm, who can be said to have left not indelible so much, but a lasting fucking who's changed things for the rest of us? [01:32:20] Speaker A: I mean, it's an interesting question. There's. I think there's. It's okay, let me back up a little bit here, because I've said before on this show that I don't necessarily want to be remembered after I die. And when I said that, you were kind of like. Like what? That's. That's weird. And I don't mean that, like, I want my friends to forget about me as soon as I die or whatever, but, like, I don't. Like, the idea of a legacy doesn't necessarily feel like something that I need, like, this, like, prevention of the second death kind of thing. And for me, I feel like it's because, like, there's kind of, like, two different ways of, like, being forgotten. And so, like, there's, like, the not being remembered because, like, you just made no difference, right? Like, you were boring or maybe you were an asshole and, you know, everyone talked shit on you, and then once they died, your memory was gone. Or, like, you know, any. Any number of those things, right? Like, where it's just kind of like, you. You were an insignificant blip on this. But I also think that, like, not being remembered can be because, like, you left nothing undone. Like, I think there's something about being, like, present, right? Like, being so in the moment and so present in your life that you don't think about your legacy. [01:33:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And so everything that you leave is in the present. The way that your friends and your family think about you and things like that, and you. You don't leave something that lasts because you were here. [01:34:02] Speaker B: Yes. [01:34:02] Speaker A: Right. You weren't thinking about what, you know was whether someone would be saying your name a hundred years from now. [01:34:09] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. Every moment spent worrying about it is time that you've spent not ensuring it. [01:34:15] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, exactly. So I think to an extent, there's a part of me that looks at that way. And then to, like, your sort of question here of, like, who has left those kinds of, like, who has left things that will, you know, will stay, will prolong the repeating of their names or whatever. I feel like that's, like, not always a good thing. Like, you know, we'll probably be talking about Netanyahu for centuries. Right? Like we talk about Hitler or things like that, you know, like. So I don't know. It's an interesting concept for me. I'm curious, like you, do you want to extend that second death and why? That's my. [01:35:03] Speaker B: Right. So, yes, I do. [01:35:04] Speaker A: This mean to you? [01:35:05] Speaker B: Yes, I do, hugely. But not so much for me. I mean, I. [01:35:09] Speaker A: Okay. [01:35:09] Speaker B: I wonder, if I were to die tomorrow, for how long would my kids remember me, right. And what information sources would they be drawing from? [01:35:25] Speaker A: Right. [01:35:26] Speaker B: As the. The fallibility of human memory took hold and over, you know, their teens and, you know, adulthood, all they have is memories of memories of memories. So what would be their kind of, what, like I said, what sources would they be drawn from? Whose input would they have? And what would the picture of me look like 1015 years from now if I were to die tomorrow? [01:35:49] Speaker A: That's a. Yeah, it's totally a good point. As someone with a dead dad, something that I absolutely get as well. Yeah. [01:36:00] Speaker B: What goes into, what goes into the. What sources have you drawn from in forming the latent kind of image that you have of your dad? [01:36:11] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. That's an interesting question, too, because to, like, what you were kind of also talking about there, like, the fallibility of memory. Right. [01:36:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:18] Speaker A: I was reading something, you know, reading various articles before today or earlier today, and one of them was, like, basically saying that it was like, you know, we. There is no such thing as, like, memory when it comes to a dead person. You basically reconstruct who they were once they were dead from, you know, largely like, what you want to remember about a person or something like that. Like, we rewrite the narrative once we lose someone and our brains are unreliable. I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. Like, we do know that we can't trust memories, but I do think, like, you know, they're not entirely. Entirely unreliable. So, like, it had me thinking about, like, what do I remember of my dad? And I'm sure there are certainly things that I think of my dad that are, like, silver lined. [01:37:09] Speaker B: Yes. [01:37:09] Speaker A: You know, rose tinted. Rose tinted, for sure. Like, my mom's portrait of my dad is very different from mine, but I also think my mom is a really unreliable narrator. [01:37:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:37:19] Speaker A: So. Yeah. Like what? That's a thing we know about my mother. And I feel like there's a lot of things that she says now that I'm like, this feels new. This does not feel like, yeah, this is. [01:37:31] Speaker B: Are you retconning? [01:37:32] Speaker A: Never heard any of this before. Yeah. Right. So, I don't know. Like, I think when I think back on my dad, I tend to have, like, sort of his roles in my life, I guess. So. Like, things like, he was always at my, like, softball games. You know, he would be the third base coach at my softball games. He always liked for me to sit in his lap while they watched the evening news. I would call him when we moved to California for help with my homework. I would go for walks with him around town. He would ask me questions to try to get me to be curious about the world and things like that. It's things about what role he played in my life that I usually think of. When I think of the legacy of my dad, I think of, you know, the tattoo on my arm of the place where, you know, that was his favorite spot and where he liked to go and sit and talk about nature and about, you know, history and things like that. Things of that nature. That's what. That's what lingers on for me. My sister doesn't have, like, a ton of, like, memories when it comes to my dad. You know, for her. Like, my evil stepfather was more like her dad than mine was, than our dad was. He was, you know, just by proximity or whatever. Not for any reason other than when we moved. She was young, but so she has, like, a much more limited amount of things to pull from having been younger when we moved away from him. [01:39:22] Speaker B: So, I mean, which would just, you know, kind of underline my point. Underscore my point. The same fella has probably got a very, very different lasting kind of Ingram in your sister's memories. [01:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And my brothers, who are, you know, much older, you know, my oldest brother is 54, so his memories of my dad and, you know, the fraught relationship that they had is gonna be a lot different than my 33, 34 year old sister. Things like that. Yeah, it's an interesting, what occurs to. [01:40:06] Speaker B: Me is that not everyone is in the same position as I am in that not everybody has, you know, coming up to five years of weekly recorded conversations, you know, surviving them. So I think what I think what we do here is interesting for me on that. On that score as well. [01:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, that's got to be kind of an interesting thought that, like, say you were to die tomorrow could happen, and your kids want to, like, rule. [01:40:37] Speaker B: Number one, you're not safe. [01:40:38] Speaker A: Exactly. And your kids wanted to sort of reconstruct an idea of, like, who was my dad. They have four years of this document that. And here's the interesting thing about memory, too. I was thinking about this, and you sort of alluded to this as well, is that eventually things become memories of memories of memories, right? Like if we look at, like, a historical figure, you know, let's say F. Scott Fitzgerald, the author of the Great Gatsby, right? Nobody. Well, maybe. No, no. Too long ago, nobody remembers F. Scott Fitzgerald. No one was friends with F. Scott Fitzgerald. Their kid is. His kid is dead. There's nobody. [01:41:18] Speaker B: No primary sources left, right? [01:41:21] Speaker A: No primary sources about F. Scott Fitzgerald left. We can read what other people wrote. We can read what Zelda thought of him. We can read what Hemingway thought of him. But their memories, too, they're memories of memories as well. And so there's nothing left of these people. They're reconstructions, right? Like, there's that. Those people, for all intents and purposes, like, they are not memories. They are something else entirely at this point. Nobody remembers them. And there's this degree which we then just. Yeah, right? [01:41:57] Speaker B: Strands pulled together. [01:41:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Strands of people. And then we'll reconstruct them, right? Like take the. The Woody Allen movie midnight in Paris, right, where you see all of those people frolicking around in Paris in the early 20th century and all of that kind of stuff so we can rebuild them as some idea based on recollections of recollections that we have of people. And what's fascinating about that concept is that, say, your kids were listening to this as a document of you, that reconstruction eventually would replace you. They don't know this guy necessarily, right? Like, the deep inside of who you are, what you cry about, what you struggle with, all these kinds of things that we have discussed over the past four years. And so they might know you better, but it wouldn't be a memory, which is interesting. [01:42:56] Speaker B: I'm certain we could train a very good chatbot to do a facsimile of both you or I at this point. [01:43:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:43:06] Speaker B: By plugging joag into it? [01:43:08] Speaker A: Yes. Nobody do that. I do not give consent. [01:43:11] Speaker B: Oh, certain. Don't you fucking dare. [01:43:14] Speaker A: Don't you fucking dare do that. But you absolutely could. Like, there's so much in here at this point, but I think that says something, again to this sort of idea of prolonging that or whatever. There could be people listening to this in a hundred years who have a very good idea of who we are, but it's not a memory. It's always going to be someone trying to contextualize us, talking about ourselves and talking around the world around us. [01:43:55] Speaker B: Yes. [01:43:59] Speaker A: Yes. [01:44:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Look, I'm generally super comfortable with this fleeting. The fleeting nature of stuff. We've talked about it endlessly over the past few years, but there's nothing like a funeral for bringing that home. There's nothing like a funeral for, you know, just spelling it out to you that. [01:44:25] Speaker A: Yeah. What, are you leaving? [01:44:28] Speaker B: Yeah. There's only going to be a finite amount of time that people. That your name is in people's mouth modes. [01:44:35] Speaker A: You know, it's. I have this, like, you know, to the point that, you know, I was talking about how thinking about this in terms of now, like, my dog dying. [01:44:44] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [01:44:47] Speaker A: As much as I'm sitting here, like, oh, you know, like, we. I don't really care about my legacy. I have this weird thing about, like, the fact that, like, once we die or sell this house or whatever, the next people won't keep the things memorializing the dog. And there's, like, a big rock. [01:45:04] Speaker B: His second death. [01:45:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, there's a big rock that we're gonna bury him by, and we're putting, like, his engraved bowl out there for, like, the birds to drink from and, you know, the animals to come and drink from. But, yeah, someday someone else will live here, and maybe they won't want that rock there anymore. Maybe they want to put in a garage, you know, and they'll dig all of that up and, you know, gauchos bones go into a dumpster and, you know, all of these kinds of things. [01:45:31] Speaker B: Oh, no. [01:45:32] Speaker A: And, like, I find that. Right. I find that somehow more unthinkable than people forgetting about me. You know, no one. No one's gonna remember. Maybe because, like, I don't know, maybe it's because it's an animal that it's like they, like, they just provide so much for us and, like, get, you know, nothing out of the deal or whatever that I'm like, they should. People should remember this little guy who served me all this time and like, me, meh. [01:46:01] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know, maybe I'm becoming trite in my old age, but I do find myself kind of falling back on, hey, little sayings more and more often. And it's true for pets. I mean, you've only known gaucho for a bit of your life, whereas he's. [01:46:15] Speaker A: You'Ve been all of his, right? Yep, exactly. Or at least most of 16 of the 17 years he has been with. [01:46:23] Speaker B: Me but I've ever fucking heard of in my life. [01:46:28] Speaker A: There are people with older man, some dogs live a really long time, but not usually they don't. And we thought he was going to die it so many times throughout his life. It's truly incredible that he's a 17 year old dog when he has had multiple health scares and things like that. But I mean, it sounds like super trite and everything to compare this to your friend dying or my dad dying or things like that. But somehow this animal that I have been raising for the past 16 years raises this question for me in a way that, like, when I think about myself, I'm not as, like, bothered by it, you know? [01:47:07] Speaker B: Well, you've got, you've, you've got options with Gauche. Right? [01:47:13] Speaker A: Sure. [01:47:16] Speaker B: I think we've spoken about these guys before, right? But there are tribes, there is a particular tribe called the Aghoris. They're a hindu sect in India, and they begin to endo cannibalism of the dead. [01:47:32] Speaker A: Endocannibalism. [01:47:34] Speaker B: Endocannibalism specifically, which differs from just atypical cannibalism in that endocannibalism refers to consumption of those within your own community, possibly your own family. [01:47:47] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. [01:47:48] Speaker B: Cannibalism of those from a similar, similar kind of. [01:47:52] Speaker A: Yeah. This came up. This came up when Joe Biden said that weird bullshit story about how his uncle got eaten by cannibals. [01:48:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:48:02] Speaker A: And it was like the people from there were like, we wouldn't just eat like some fucking random white guy who fell out of the sky. Like, this is like the reason we ate people was like, they were members of our own community. And it was usually like, you know, to honor them. Not because we, you know, it wasn't violent. It wasn't just because we, like, were starving. There was a reason that we ate the people that we did. [01:48:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And the, the Aghori are, you know, exactly why they want to. They want to kind of bring the spirit, the intellect, the essence of their loved one back into their tribe, into their people, the Agori, are fucking fascinating. Right? They are the most hardcore fucking death sodden motherfuckers. They will kind of live in cemeteries. They will kind of meditate, sat on corpses. They'll fucking eat the dead. They'll fucking use skulls and shit, ashes and cremation materials as makeup. They're just this fucking soaked in death tribe. And, you know, they'll. They'll. They'll keep their lost loved ones close through, just. [01:49:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:12] Speaker B: Chowing the fuck on down. So I'm just saying, with go to, you've got options. [01:49:16] Speaker A: Could always do that. There's not much meat left on that dog. [01:49:19] Speaker B: That's also true. [01:49:20] Speaker A: Very good meal. Yeah, but I mean, kind of. Yeah. Obviously, though, it's like, that's extreme, but it's, like, an extreme version of things that we do as well. We both have tattoos for family members, you know, have died on us. Like, we. We find ways to sort of internalize people. People get jewelry made out of people's ashes. You know, people have gotten. You can get tattoos with people's ashes that are being made from people's ashes. So, you know, it sounds like, whoa. They, like, you know, they want to, like, eat and get this person, like, inside of them or whatever, but what. [01:50:00] Speaker B: Is it if not? It's the same instinct and. [01:50:04] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, we may not sit on a corpse, but we will go to a cemetery and, you know, stand on them. [01:50:11] Speaker B: Exactly. And get it. You know, getting a fucking tattoo isn't gonna give you folding prion diseases. It isn't gonna give you fucking. It isn't gonna give you prion disorder. Fuck you up. Which is a problem that the Aghori sect have. [01:50:27] Speaker A: Do they really? [01:50:27] Speaker B: Oh, fuck, yeah. They suffer badly with something called Kuru, which is a prion disease, much like Creutzfeldt Jakob. They aren't the only tribe. The four people, a tribe from Papua New guinea. Again, big into endocannibalism riddled with Kuru. Interestingly. Right. Interestingly, because kuru is an infection which centers in kind of brain matter, cranial matter, in the fore tribe or the four tribe. However, it's pronounced the Kuru, the prion disease was more prevalent in women as they are the ones who would eat the skull and brain, whereas the men would feast on kind of muscle tissue and. [01:51:12] Speaker A: Interesting. [01:51:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was the women who were getting the prions. [01:51:16] Speaker A: That's wild. [01:51:17] Speaker B: Isn't it? [01:51:19] Speaker A: Fascinating. [01:51:20] Speaker B: What's the point? [01:51:20] Speaker A: We're not gonna do that. [01:51:21] Speaker B: We're not gonna. No, don't do that. [01:51:22] Speaker A: What else. What else we got? What else do people do you stave off the second death? [01:51:28] Speaker B: Well, there's a practice again. Again, Papua New guinea tribes, women from the Dani tribe, in kind of the opposite way to what we're saying here. To get rid of somebody's energy. If there's a wrong one, if there's a wrong un who's died and they just want to get the fuck rid of them, they will amputate. They will amputate a finger as a memorial to a deceased loved one. So in terms of ritual, you would put the essence of that person, you know, whatever bad memories, whatever fucking, you know, bad kind of associations they conjure up. Lock it in that finger, cut it the fuck off. Get rid of the dude. Burn it to ashes. Store it in a special place in a lockbox. But yes, you can. You can. You can cut it out. [01:52:14] Speaker A: Interesting, isn't it? Okay, that's kind of an interesting one, because I was reading something about, I think it's the Romans, and this sort of idea of basically, like, erasing the memory. And I can't remember what the phrase was, but it had a really good phrase behind it as well, like, condemning the memory or something like that. And basically the idea behind that was, like, if someone was a shithead or whatever, you would, like, actively, like. Like, basically the ancient roman equivalent of scratching them out of the family photo, right? Like, there's, like, these little pendants and stuff, and it'll be like, here's the mom. Like, Stalin, you're his brother, and here's just scratched out this. Well, Stalin was an example that was brought up in an article that I always read, that I read because, like, Ukraine got rid of, like, all Stalin statues or. No, it was Lenin, not Stalin statues, to, like, basically just sort of tried to, like, distance themselves from their soviet past and things like that. And we here, especially in 2020, when sort of the black lives matter was really prevalent and things like that. There was pulling down of a lot of confederate statues and changing the names of places that were named after it. [01:53:35] Speaker B: Happened in pockets over here. [01:53:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, plenty of those kinds of things. I think one of your guys, like, went into lake. You did one point. Yes, yes, yes. In Bristol. That's right. And so, you know, but the sort of idea behind that being like that, you're condemning the memory, right? So you're trying to, like, sort of cut out that thing because. And cause that, in a sense, sort of a second death. But also one of the things that one of the articles was talking about was that often, like, that spectacle of scratching someone out of a photo, tearing down their statue, or things like that, does keep the memory alive, but it serves to, like, your pinky or like, your. Whatever. Your pointer finger or whatever it was that you said for your tribe here. It's like you're condemning it. You're reframing it. Reframing what that is. So, you know that, like, whatever legacy that person has, it's a foul one. It's one that we shouldn't, you know, idolize or things like that. And you see in, like, the pushback from people who don't want us to take down confederate statues and things like that. Like, you know, they understand that by pulling down a statue of Robert E. Lee, you're inherently condemning the confederacy. You're condemning a belief that they have in taking this down and saying, like, this person is not worthy. You are killing that cause for a second time. And so, yeah, it's interesting to see multiple cultures have some sort of thing like that where it's like, you don't just. It's not simply that their name leaves your mouth because it may be there forever, but that you have put the right context. [01:55:32] Speaker B: Yes. [01:55:32] Speaker A: You've contextualized it. Yeah. [01:55:35] Speaker B: I will be thinking closely about ways in which to stave off my second death. I can't promise. [01:55:45] Speaker A: What if you. What if you're, like, 95, lived out, like, a full life? All right, we're not talking early death because, like, obviously I've got fomo. I don't want to die tomorrow or anything like that. Right? Like. But, like, if I live a full life, you know, it's between, like, my molecular dust and the universe or whatever, what happens beyond that? So what if you live to a ripe old age? Your family has had beautiful memories and all that kind of stuff with you? [01:56:15] Speaker B: Well, yeah, then maybe I wouldn't bother. I mean, I'm. If you're going to stage manage it properly, you need a few things to be in place, don't you? You need advanced warning, for a start. You need to know when it's gonna fucking happen. [01:56:27] Speaker A: Sure. [01:56:28] Speaker B: Uh, which we don't. [01:56:32] Speaker A: We don't know, but, I mean, a lot of people, you know, they work on that legacy beforehand. If you've ever seen Hamilton, that whole thing about planting sowing seeds in a garden you never get to see. [01:56:47] Speaker B: Yes. [01:56:47] Speaker A: Right. Knowing that you're making something that you're not gonna see the results of. But, you know, nonetheless, someday in the future, rich people who name shit after themselves or create endowments for after they foundations, legacies. You know, there's things that people do to, you know, whenever they kick the bucket. [01:57:08] Speaker B: You've got fucking matey boy with the tiles. The Kubrick fucking tiles. [01:57:12] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yes, exactly. Which we have. I don't know if we revisited that, but. Oh, yeah, I think I did mention that there's a doctor that does reveal who he is. [01:57:25] Speaker B: Yes. Don't watch it. Let's just let the guy. [01:57:27] Speaker A: Just. Just let it be. But, yeah, so, you know, theoretically, you have the option, but do you care if you've lived a whole life? [01:57:37] Speaker B: That's the question. If in your. You know, your scenario, if I'm in my nineties, a life well lived achievements and a family to be proud of, who gives a shit? But it's, you know, in cases where it's, ah, man, isn't it fucking brilliantly infuriating that you can kick back all you fucking want, but it makes no difference? It is inevitable. [01:58:04] Speaker A: Mm hmm. [01:58:06] Speaker B: I love it. I love it. [01:58:10] Speaker A: It's a. It's a weird thought, but it's fun. One that, you know, of all things, like, I think. I don't know. It's a thing that I think my life, over the course of my life, I've changed my ideas about and. Yeah, that idea of not needing. Like, I went and we were cleaning out, like, my mom's storage unit or whatever, and there's, like, tons of, like, my old journals and stuff like that in it. [01:58:34] Speaker B: Nice. [01:58:34] Speaker A: And, like, for. I always used to, like, keep all of that kind of stuff and everything and things going back forever, and I, like, pulled them out of there, checked to make sure nothing important was inside any of them, and then it was like, whatever, you know, 15 year old Corrigan had to say is none of my business, you know, and tossed all of that stuff in the dumpster. Like, there's just no sense to me that there has to be something for people to later define and to be fair, also, this comes from, like, not having kids. I don't have to worry about. [01:59:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:59:02] Speaker A: You know, what legacy I leave behind with my children or anything like that. But, yeah, I think it's just one of those things that, over time, I've come to realize, like, I want to be present. And I hope, like, as far as I think in terms of legacy, is that I hope that people who encounter me are better for having encountered me. [01:59:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:59:24] Speaker A: That's all I know. [01:59:25] Speaker B: I completely agree. Leave the room. Fucking better than it was when you got here. That's right. [01:59:30] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:59:30] Speaker B: If I can't do that. [01:59:31] Speaker A: That's all I want. How long that lasts doesn't matter, but I want that to be the case, okay? [01:59:39] Speaker B: Just thoughts. No answers, no solutions, no fucking tidy outcomes. Just fucking thoughts and questions as they occur. Friends, as you come with us on this journey through uncertainty and filth, what. [01:59:52] Speaker A: Do you think though? Let us know. Are you concerned about your legacy? Do you not give a shit? Would you risk a prion disease to eat your favorite relative? [02:00:04] Speaker B: Have you eaten a relative? How did they say? [02:00:06] Speaker A: Have you eaten a relative? Whatever. How do you memorialize people and pets? And how do you want to be memorialized? Tell us all about it. We're curious. [02:00:17] Speaker B: We're all here. [02:00:17] Speaker A: We know our mindsets are not always the mainstream ones. [02:00:23] Speaker B: And while you're doing all that, and thanks as always for coming along with us because we love you deeply and we want you to stay spooky.