Ep. 160: sleepwalkers

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Okay, so look, ACAB obviously, right? Obviously. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Sure. [00:00:09] Speaker A: But I have to look, what do you love most about my cold opens? Corey, not to want to put you on the spot, but what do you love most about when I started Joag? [00:00:19] Speaker B: The spontaneity and yes, the VISCE of Yurikoto weapons? [00:00:29] Speaker A: I'd like to think that I take you there. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:00:34] Speaker A: I like to think that I pluck you from where you are. Be it work, be it with your family, whatever your reality is, your contemporary reality, I pluck you from it, and I take you and pop you down somewhere else. Now, I'm going to seek to do that again this week. I'm going to pluck you from wherever you are, and I'm going to take you to a place that I love the most. It's a place anywhere where the story is set before really stringent record keeping and primary witnesses. [00:01:05] Speaker B: That works out well for you, doesn't it? [00:01:07] Speaker A: Doesn't it? Doesn't it's the best. But thematically, this cold open, it's just beautiful. And it'll all come into play as the story unfolds. But listen, ACAB, of course, right? But in the 1880s in France, right, if you were a detective, if you were on the fucking Jean Darms in the late 18 hundreds, you would have heard the name Robert Ledri, okay? Ledri was a real life detective during the 1880s, and absolutely, he is up there with your Sherlocks, with your fucking your Bruce Wayne's. Pick another detective and insert him there. Poirot sure. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah. There. [00:02:07] Speaker A: You know, Miss Marvel, I like that. [00:02:10] Speaker B: Wayne came to mind as a detective before. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Poirot well, he's the world's greatest detective, isn't he? [00:02:14] Speaker B: Sure. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Okay, so that's just know, Ladry. He's this detective who's made a fucking name for himself, right? He is relentless. He is tireless. He will stay awake for 24 hours at a time. He has infiltrated and broke up kind of black magic cults. He overturned a political coup with roots all the way back into Russia in 1884. The guy is a narc, but he's like a turbo narc. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:53] Speaker A: This is the guy that is relentless. Right? He is Lur fucking Detective Magnific. Right? [00:02:59] Speaker B: Okay. You're so impressed with yourself right now. [00:03:06] Speaker A: So look, I don't know if his colleagues hated him. I kind of feel like if I was one of his colleagues, he would have pissed me off a little, right? But in 1887, due to his fantastic track record of solving the strangest cases that need him to go in deep, he was puzzled one summer morning when he got a call from his fucking control or whatever, assigning him to a part of France called Le Avre and assigning him to a strange case at the St. Adreas beach where sailors had been going missing. Right? [00:03:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Seafaring gentlemen had been returning from the ocean, and therefore, after going missing, strangely. [00:03:57] Speaker B: So they're coming ashore like, hey, do some shore leave. Have a good time. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:04:02] Speaker B: And then not get back to the ship. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Exactly. And then disappearing strangely. Who on earth are you going to call to solve this case? This has got Robert Ledri written all over it, right? So in he comes and he's immediately engrossed. Right? Engrossed in the investigation. And a little kind of pissed off to get a call when he's diving into this case of the missing seamen to be reassigned to a beach nearby where he was staying, where a prominent businessman had been missing, right? A guy by the name of Andre Monet had been murdered, had vanished, had been killed on the beach late at night, right? [00:04:47] Speaker B: Wait, is there a body or he's missing? [00:04:53] Speaker A: There is a body. There is 100% a body. There's a body. There's a crime scene. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Okay? [00:04:58] Speaker A: Get Lidri on the fucking case. Get him down here. Get him down here. Get the fucking light on. But that's the thing, Lidri, he's asking questions, right? He's interviewing family members. He's talking to friends. And the case is full of baffling gaps, right? This guy had no enemies. The crime appeared random. His money's, belongings were perfectly intact upon his person. There was no robbery or attack motive. It seemed random and it seemed inscrutable. Until Robert spends longer on the beach, there are footprints leading to and away from the the. All of the elements are in place here for Lidri to solve this case in the manner for which he's famous. Sure. So he's looking at the beach, he's looking at the body, he's looking at the footprints. A bullet has been recovered, right? The bullet responsible for the murder case. [00:06:08] Speaker B: Single or whatever. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Exactly. A single bullet has been recovered, and Lidry is sat on the beach, and he's looking at the footprints, and he's looking at the body and the shore and the waves and the bullet, and he's fucking whoa. What the fuck is this is incredible. This is strange. But then people who are watching him on this beach recorded as saying his expression all at once changed from being fascinated in the details to being terrified, to being to almost having made some kind of incredible realization. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Like in movies, whenever they do that and you're like, nobody does this for a moment. Their face is totally clear, and then they have a realization. [00:06:56] Speaker A: There's a TV show over here called Death in paradise, right, that Peter is a big fan of. [00:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I've seen that. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah. There you go. And that always ends the same way. The fucking police don't have a single bastard clue about who's responsible until they see something. Oh, blue. Yeah, blue, right. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Shirt. Yeah. It's this guy. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Well, that seems to have happened here on the beach. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Okay, fair enough. [00:07:21] Speaker A: And examining the scene in minute detail, as he was famed for without a word, his demeanor changed. He became pallid. He became almost terrified, looking petrified. And without a single word, it is said that Ladri withdrew from the scene and locked himself in his room, went back to his hotel, locked himself, incarcerated himself in his own hotel room before heading directly to Paris the next morning. [00:07:47] Speaker B: Can I make a real quick aside sorry. Just because of what we were talking about, my brain then ADHD spiraled. I wonder if Sherlock Holmes were a real guy, right? Or like any of these your Poirots and your yes. Like the way that you were talking about, you know, blue. That reminds me of not none of this stuff would hold up in court, right? Like, if the only things that they could come up with are like these, like, you basically have to unwind the motives and circumstantial stuff to that's how all of these things are solved. Every single person Sherlock Holmes caught would get away. Like, there'd be no way. [00:08:29] Speaker A: 100%. [00:08:30] Speaker B: You couldn't prove any of them. [00:08:31] Speaker A: But you had said, there is evidence. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Right. This has never dawned on me until just this moment. I was like, hey. [00:08:39] Speaker A: Completely. [00:08:39] Speaker B: That wouldn't hold up. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:41] Speaker B: No, not at he got a good monologue in. And then all these people were like, well, see you later, and went home. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Stop. You there. To kill again. [00:08:51] Speaker B: To kill again. Right. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Sherlock Holmes was nothing but a liability. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Sorry, go on. [00:08:56] Speaker A: He gets to deliver, however, right? [00:08:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:00] Speaker A: After incarcerating himself in his room, after seemingly having some kind of bombshell revelation about this case, he imprisoned himself overnight and drove directly to Paris. Because, you see, Lederie had solved the case in Paris. Leydrie shocked his superiors by claiming the case solved, and from his bag, he produced a plastic cast of one of the footprints at the beach. [00:09:30] Speaker B: All right. [00:09:32] Speaker A: What had shocked him so much the day before was noticing from all of the footprints leading to the body, leading away from the body that all of these footprints had something in common and had something in common with him in that they were missing a toe. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Okay. I was about to say, was it him? [00:09:52] Speaker A: The plasticast were missing a big toe on their right foot, just as Ledri was missing a big toe on the plastic. A big toe of his right foot. While in Paris, he confessed to something very strange. He confessed to his superiors that upon his arrival at Laur, he woke up the morning that he got there. He woke up after sleep in the night. He woke up and found, for reasons he couldn't explain, his socks had been soaked through and there was sand in his socks. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Oh, bruh. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And as the puzzle pieces just clicked into place, he found that he had shot a single fucking bullet from his gun, from his police issue Luger wow. Which, of course, matched perfectly the bullet that they recovered from the body. See, Ledri was such a fucking crime solving animal, on this occasion, he fucking caught himself. [00:10:55] Speaker B: What? [00:10:57] Speaker A: He actually detectivized that as a lifelong sleepwalker, a lifelong. Somnambulist Ladri had been wandering in the night, had been to the beach and had randomly fucking took out his gun and shot this guy whilst sleepwalking. [00:11:15] Speaker B: Holy shit. [00:11:17] Speaker A: Yep. [00:11:18] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Indeed. Yeah. What happened afterwards is even more incredible, all right? Because he was prosecuted for this and charged and sentenced for it, and he was sentenced to life, but allowed complete freedom by day, but then confined to. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Prison at night when he's sleeping and might go and when he might go somebody exactly. [00:11:42] Speaker A: Go a killing. And this arrangement of him being a prisoner at night but completely free of by day was an arrangement that he kept until his death in 1939. [00:11:55] Speaker B: That's wild. I read about another guy who had a more recent case that was like this, too, where a guy had, I want to say, killed his girlfriend, but it definitely was like he had no idea he had done it, no recollection of it, any of this kind of thing. And, yeah, they ended up, like, basically, I think he didn't kill her. I think he just did something violent or whatever. But they realized, like, yeah, he's been a lifelong sleepwalker and he can get violent when he does this. And so literally, instead, he was acquitted of the charges or they were dropped and he was able to live out his life, but the condition was that his wife had to lock him in a room at night so that he couldn't get out and harm anyone. [00:12:53] Speaker A: I mean, that is so cool. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:59] Speaker A: That their love endured. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Whatever it happened, she is now almost like his nighttime guardian, right. [00:13:05] Speaker B: The keeper of exactly. [00:13:07] Speaker A: She must lock him away lest his rage. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. It feels like something from, like a Gothic novel, doesn't it? [00:13:14] Speaker A: Exactly. And coming right off the back of Bram Stoke as Dracula, that is the kind of tale that I'm super into. [00:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So honestly, this is the kind of story that would sound like completely. Yeah. Right. Like, he knew he did, like, whatever, and then he had a guilty conscience, so he turned himself in. But I was like, no, that legit happens. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Completely. And is by no means just a kind of a modern thing all the way back to the 18 hundreds and God knows how far beyond. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Incredible. Thank you for that. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Yes, please do. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, miselsen. [00:13:53] Speaker B: I don't think anyone has ever said miselsen in such a horny way before. [00:13:57] Speaker A: The way I whispered the word sex cannibal received. [00:14:00] Speaker B: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:14:04] Speaker A: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside, but my pancreas is talking to me. I'm going to leg it. [00:14:10] Speaker B: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:14:12] Speaker A: I think you feel great about it. [00:14:15] Speaker B: I like that you went with the theme for your Gold open thank you. [00:14:19] Speaker A: I like that you liked it. I'm glad that you enjoyed I'm glad that you I'm all about thematic through line, mate. I'm all about that. [00:14:26] Speaker B: You are. That's true. [00:14:27] Speaker A: I don't know if that's something, you know, but I will only agree to appear on something if that kind of dramatic integrity is preserved the entire way. Otherwise, I walk. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Is that the rule? [00:14:39] Speaker A: Otherwise, I'm fucking gone. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Mark, I have some I have some bad news for you about what's been going on in this podcast for the past three years. [00:14:48] Speaker A: It's a good thing I never listened to it. [00:14:50] Speaker B: A how's it going? [00:14:53] Speaker A: Hey. Wednesday. Jo AG. This is unusual. [00:14:54] Speaker B: It's Tuesday. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Fuck, I'm going to do that again. Can we do that again? Sure. A Tuesday. Jo AG. My goodness. That's unusual. [00:15:05] Speaker B: What's going on with it is unusual. Boy, we're struggling this week. But listen, it's the holidays. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:15:15] Speaker B: It's busy. I am so tired. [00:15:19] Speaker A: I'm just looking at you. [00:15:21] Speaker B: See it? [00:15:21] Speaker A: I'm looking at you from across the planet on quite a grainy kind of grainy zoom connection. And you can see the tired still coming right out at me. [00:15:29] Speaker B: Emanating off, radiating off radiating tired. [00:15:34] Speaker A: I'm catching tired just hanging out with you right now. [00:15:37] Speaker B: Exactly. I'm so sorry for what I'm passing on right now. No, I'm not even entirely sure. Even when I sleep well, I feel like I'm tired. This is a sleep related episode, just FYI. So honestly, it kind of makes sense that this would be the case. And I'm not a sleepwalker or anything like that. We're going to talk about some sleepwalkers, all that kind of stuff. But I am a sleep mumbler, a sleep laugher, a sleep muffled screamer, things like that. And my husband has reported that I have been quite talkative the past couple of weeks. I've had a lot going on, which also, as we will discuss, tends to be a sign that you're kind of in that in between space and you're not really getting into REM sleep and all that kind of stuff when you're talking and all that. So I don't know. I guess I just haven't been sleeping super well, even if I've been sleeping through the night. So there's that. But I have a house full of people, which is delightful. Right now. I am the auntie type, and so I love nothing more than my friend's children hanging out, all that stuff. And so I have my godchildren are here downstairs doing art projects at the dining room table while I'm up here recording here with their parents for Thanksgiving. We're going into New York City. We're going to do the Macy's parade. Well, they're going to do the Macy's Parade. I can't stand up that long, but they're going to do the Macy's Parade. I'm going to cook dinner while they're doing that. It is like, cold. I looked it up. It's about 40 degrees right now. It was even colder this morning. It was like 34 this morning. So 40 degrees is about four degrees Celsius. Yeah. And today like rainy and windy. So it's just the kind of thing where it's like your face is very cold from it. And these children are in California, they're. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Kind of like your facial extremities, like your nose, your ears. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yes, that's what I don't like. Mostly. It's just I don't like how my lips and nose and ears get cold. But I'm happy. It's the holidays and I have my chosen FAM in the house. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that is beautiful. And look, I'm living proof that you won't go insane. Your body will simply tell you when it's sleep time because you won't be able to continue what you're doing. And you'll have to. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Well, as I was telling you before, this happened to me in Welsh class earlier today, that my Welsh class is at 09:00 A.m. Here, which is like 02:00 P.m. Over there. And this morning I just turned my camera off and I went and I laid down through Welsh class because I was like, I can't be upright anymore. Sometimes your body says no. [00:18:42] Speaker A: Listen, I don't know if you hear this. A few listeners emailed me about last week's episode to say that we had some sort of weird fucking broadcast signal intrusion kind of thing going on. Did any word of that reach you? [00:18:56] Speaker B: No, I hadn't heard about that. Really? That's super weird. [00:18:59] Speaker A: What did they it wasn't everyone, apparently, but some of our listeners might have got a different episode than usual last week. Some chumps from another fucking dimension or something were beaming in their version of Joe Agasson's, like, sounded shit, like hyper upbeat and positive, whereas we're not. [00:19:19] Speaker B: No. We spent last week, as usual, talking about Beheadings. [00:19:24] Speaker A: It was like a Beheading mega soda. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Exactly. That where just heads everywhere, heads all over the place. [00:19:31] Speaker A: It was actually one of our more critically acclaimed episodes as well. So if you did miss out on that last week, I can only apologize. Sorry about that. [00:19:38] Speaker B: We got Max Headroomed. What are you going to do? [00:19:40] Speaker A: Yeah, and we didn't record it either. [00:19:42] Speaker B: So happens to the best of them. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah. If I ever meet those two chumps. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Boy, I'ma give them what for. I'll tell you what, your days are numbered, chumps. [00:19:58] Speaker A: I'll give them a real good shellacking. [00:20:04] Speaker B: Indeed. I feel like there was a comment from last week I did want to bring up, but I did not think about it before this episode because, hey, like we said, we're having lots of. [00:20:12] Speaker A: Chaos this week, just fucking absolute mayhem. But we hope you're doing okay. We hope your weeks are going well and you've made that decision. You've done the right thing. You've hit play and we are, as always, grateful for you, which is a. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Great theme for this Thanksgiving here in the United States. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Right, so I am a Brit who doesn't know shit. What is it you all give thanks for? [00:20:40] Speaker B: Who knows? Technically, it's supposed to be it's like a whole myth. No, it's not a Jesus thing. It's not religious. No, it's like a whole myth about the Native Americans and the Pilgrims sitting down to have, like, a friendly meal together. And we all got along. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Sure. [00:21:03] Speaker B: It makes it sound like we didn't annihilate all of the Native Americans and we were just super happy together. And the Indian part of that whole story. Yeah, they taught us how to but I want to and all this, which is true, they did do that. But if you hear the oral histories passed down by Indigenous people about Thanksgiving and those first meals, there's a number of meals that are potentially laid out as what was the first Thanksgiving, depending on who you ask. But Indigenous people largely have a very different narrative than the it was a happy time, and we were all super cool together, but that's what we tell or they used to teach kids. Emily was saying that her kids have learned nothing about it. And it was wild because one of the things in school that we would have all done, like every millennial American would have done, is make, like, little construction paper pilgrim hats and Indian feather headband. And there was a pilgrim hat on some cartoon we were watching. I think we were watching Charlie Brown Christmas, and there was a pilgrim hat in it. And Emily, out of curiosity, was asked her children, like, do you know what that is? And one of them was like, a witch hat, and the other one was, like, said something like a magic hat or something like that. And she's like, yeah, they don't know anything about that myth. So now it's kind of like Christmas going from being a religious holiday ish to none of us connect it to religion at all. [00:22:34] Speaker A: At all. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Thanksgiving isn't really connected to the origin. [00:22:39] Speaker A: Story, which is largely very glad I asked. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Racist. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I'd always just assumed it was just a kind of a standard, bland, wayward religious holiday. Jesus. Yeah. [00:22:50] Speaker B: No, this is one of our non religious ones. [00:22:54] Speaker A: But if anything, it's even more insidious. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Isn't it? Yeah, 100%. It's a very fraught holiday, and a lot of people just choose not to. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Celebrate washing the whole incident. [00:23:09] Speaker B: Yeah, right. It's a tricky one because obviously I don't want to celebrate the genocide of the Native Americans and the whitewashing of that, but at the same time, there's a lot of, like it's kind of the lead into Christmas sort of holiday. And so, yeah, the big parade happens in New York, and everyone watches it across the country, and you just cook food and everybody eats at, like, 02:00 p.m.. Yeah. Really nice. We have, like, a local community gifting group, and they were like, we're going to do like a give a plate thing. Will you sign up to bring a plate of food to someone in town who's not having, like, Thanksgiving dinner or whatever, so I'm bringing food to some nice lady in town. And, yeah, there's a lot of good things about it. It just comes from horrific origins. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Yes. Well, look, I think that's the story we could tell about a lot of things, isn't it? They're what you make them and what you make of them. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Exactly. When it comes to any form of tradition in America, you just kind of have to assume it really starts with bloodshed and go from yep, yep, yep. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Well, thank you anyway for clearing that up. [00:24:18] Speaker B: Yeah, happy to help. Hadn't occurred to me that yeah, there's no reason for you to know the origins of Thanksgiving. [00:24:26] Speaker A: No. And to be honest, you'd have thought that at some point in the last three years I would have asked, yeah. [00:24:31] Speaker B: That is kind of funny, but maybe you have and you just forgot. [00:24:36] Speaker A: And this is, like, also very plausible. So plausible. [00:24:42] Speaker B: That does happen a lot. Let's be real. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Yes, I'm afraid it does. But that's what you get for being my friend. [00:24:48] Speaker B: That's what I signed up for. And I understand this. So, yeah, this week we're vibing because we're both coming off of just kind of crazy times. It's been like a bananas November in general. So we're going to talk about some fun sleeping related stuff, and we're going to just chat and shoot the breeze and chill because it's for Americans. You're getting your holiday stuff set up, all that. You're getting ready for Black Friday. You're going to go trample someone for a TV or whatever. People don't really do that anymore because now it's all online. But whatever the case, you can put us on and just chill with us while you make your turkey or whatever you're doing. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Yes, maybe have, like, one AirPod in so you can keep one side of your head in Jo AG while the other side of your head is keeping an air on your family and whatever. You know, I like to picture our listeners while we record, and that's what I'm picturing this week, is maybe you've got like a bowl and maybe you're whisking. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah, I see it. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Yeah, like that. And you've got Joe Argon in one and you're kind of whisking. Maybe you've got a cigarette on the go. [00:26:02] Speaker B: No, not while cooking, I don't think. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Tell you what, we'll lose the cigarette. [00:26:05] Speaker B: We'Ll take the cigarette out. [00:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's what you're doing in my mind's eye this week, my darling, darling listeners. [00:26:14] Speaker B: I hope that is the case. I love the it's those delightful, just traditional images of Christmas and holidays and things that are what make it such a delightful time of year. [00:26:25] Speaker A: So while you've got Thanksgiving going on, we've got some British traditions which warm up this week. So I'm a celebrity comes. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you've got that Nigel Farage fella on it, right? [00:26:39] Speaker A: Yes, let that be the first and last time we mention his name. [00:26:44] Speaker B: Well, we have a similar reality TV problem. We have things like The Masked Singer or So You Think You Can Dance. Or maybe So You Think that's not the right thing, but whatever. The thing that's like Strictly here is, and they're always getting horrible conservative politicians just like the worst human beings on the earth. And it's like they'll unmask him on the Masked Singer. And one time, I think it was Rudy Giuliani was on The Masked Singer, and when they unmasked him, Ken Jong left, he was like, no, I'm not doing this. [00:27:16] Speaker A: This is too far again. It's like Thanksgiving, isn't it? It's attempting to kind of re retcon. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Their fucking reputation 100%. Absolutely. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:29] Speaker B: So does everyone sit around and every family is going to be sitting around watching I'm a Celebrity? [00:27:36] Speaker A: A lot of them, yes. But I mean, there was an egregious example of that last year, that fuckwhit Matt Hancock was on there, who was our Health Secretary during COVID That guy's. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Got the most punchable face on the right. [00:27:51] Speaker A: I'm quite awkward. [00:27:53] Speaker B: You are, yeah. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Physically right. I'm physically quite awkward. You are. I tried to blend in. It never worked. You always know when I'm around. I wish it wasn't so right, but charming that guy is more awkward than I could ever next to him, I am. Grace. [00:28:11] Speaker B: You know what? [00:28:12] Speaker A: I'm a zephyr of fucking a breeze through your hair next to Matt Hancock. The guy is just a fucking clenched knot of awkwardness and just mediocre incompetence. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Yeah. When it came out that he was, like, cheating on his wife or whatever, I was like, this guy, yeah, incredible. [00:28:33] Speaker A: But, yeah, the public just wanted to watch him eat assholes for a couple of weeks. Clearly. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Sure. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Which they got and yeah, that's it. Do you know what, media wise, I don't know if that's an exaggeration. We haven't really heard much from him since. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Well, hey, then maybe you're going to have the same luck with old Nigel. [00:28:59] Speaker A: Yes, maybe. [00:29:00] Speaker B: But get a few other people on there. [00:29:06] Speaker A: If the public want to redeem themselves just an inch in my eyes, I want that fucking guy picking fucking sheep's bollocks out of his teeth for the next six months. [00:29:16] Speaker B: Is that part of the show? [00:29:18] Speaker A: Yeah. They make you eat some horrific, horrific stuff. [00:29:21] Speaker B: I've obviously never seen this. I don't really go for the reality show things unless it's Name That Tune or something like that. Cooking shows and game shows. That's my bag. [00:29:34] Speaker A: But anyway, that's just a British tradition that I'm sharing with you. [00:29:39] Speaker B: I love that. Love it. [00:29:41] Speaker A: Let me see. There are some others. The Blackpool episode of Strictly, that was this week. [00:29:46] Speaker B: I did see someone arguing that they should always have Strictly in Blackpool for the economic stimulation that it would provide to have it there. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Okay, I want to go to Blackpool. [00:29:59] Speaker B: That's like on my list, talking to Richard about it and stuff. I would really like to go there. [00:30:05] Speaker A: I'm not sure how it could have happened that I've made it to 44 in the UK without ever having visited Blackpool. [00:30:11] Speaker B: You've never been either? [00:30:12] Speaker A: Never been. It's further north, you know what I mean? [00:30:17] Speaker B: Nothing is that far north. You live in England. [00:30:21] Speaker A: Which is why I'm chortling as I say this. I'm speaking to somebody who'd be well within her rights just to brush me. [00:30:29] Speaker B: Aside, you know, if I'd been there a week longer, I would have been there. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Exactly. But any further north than, say, like, Wolverhampton, maybe like Telford OOH, that's proper north. That is. So if I'm going further north than that, then I've got know, spend six months doing, like, high altitude training. You've got to breathe through one of those little things. [00:30:50] Speaker B: I need to be north enough that I understand nothing anyone's saying anymore. [00:30:55] Speaker A: That's the goal. Yes. And maybe spend some time observing them and their culture and their ways, right. Learning writing notes in my little field. [00:31:06] Speaker B: Journal with the people. [00:31:13] Speaker A: And that sort of thing. But that's why I've never been to Blackpool, because I've never had any cause to, really. But I'd love to. So come over and let's do it. [00:31:20] Speaker B: All right, that sounds like a plan. You heard it here first. Joe AG's going to Blackpool and it's going to be awesome. [00:31:26] Speaker A: Black of all graves. [00:31:27] Speaker B: Black of all graves. It's black of all graves. Every week. Be real. [00:31:34] Speaker A: Every goddamn week. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Every week. Every time I'm here, it's black of all graves. [00:31:38] Speaker A: I'll black up. [00:31:42] Speaker B: Maybe not one of us is. Fine. [00:31:46] Speaker A: I'm going to put a question to you, right? I'm going to repose a question to you while it's on my mind. Right? [00:31:51] Speaker B: Okay. [00:31:52] Speaker A: And I think I asked you this originally, like, in week three of Jo AG, like, years ago. Are you sure there's no place at all for blacking up in comedy? No place. [00:32:02] Speaker B: There is no place. No, that's not true. Well, because remember, I mean, I'm sure this was what I said at the time, like, Robert Downey Jr. And Tropic Thunder is like, the one case in which that works because it's like the whole thing manages to be punching up at the people who do blackface. It's really the only circumstance that would work. And now it's been done, like, what, are you going to do it again? That's not going to work. [00:32:28] Speaker A: I even think I'm asking you this for the same reasons as I asked you this three years ago, because I've been watching Always Sunny, right? [00:32:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Those early always Sunnies are not great. [00:32:40] Speaker A: The early ones. Well, not so much the first couple of seasons, not so much. I'm talking in particular about the series of episodes where they remake where they make Lethal Weapon, like Five, Six and seven. [00:32:51] Speaker B: Right, okay. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Right. And they were funny as fuck. And now aren't because. They're gone. They've been removed, they've been evaporated. Is there just the tiniest little niche where it's at the expense of the characters as opposed to in their service? [00:33:16] Speaker B: Here's why no, it's because the dumbest people I know watch, it's always sunny, and they think the characters are heroes. That's the I when I think about the old bartender that I knew in Costa Mesa who he thought Al Bundy was the hero, know, married with children, things like that. And it was like he loved it's always, like, worshipped that show, and he thought the characters were the heroes of the show. [00:33:45] Speaker A: I see. [00:33:46] Speaker B: And so there's always going to be a good chunk of people who are, like, face value. Exactly. And then when people criticize it are going to be like, everyone's too sensitive, which is the opposite of what they're trying to say in the show. [00:33:58] Speaker A: But, yes, our audience absolutely nailed that question with a bullseye. Thank you. And I look forward to asking you once again. [00:34:08] Speaker B: At least you remembered you'd asked me. It just forgot what the reasoning was behind. [00:34:17] Speaker A: Again. You know, it's all part of the. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Is listen, I assume, you know, there's some people, like my friend Mel who sometimes listens to this show, but she listened to Electric Fan Cave. She's from New Zealand. She has, like, a memory, like a steel trap. And so we'd say something, and she'd be like, oh, yeah, you mentioned in episode four that blah, blah, blah, blah, and it'd be like some tiny little thing. And she always knew things like that. I feel like most people might be like, I think they've had this conversation before, but don't remember the details any better than we do. So hopefully we don't drive people crazy, rehashing something we talked about three years ago. [00:34:59] Speaker A: And if we do, please, it's not intentional. [00:35:01] Speaker B: We're not trying to drive you crazy. We just don't remember things. [00:35:05] Speaker A: No. How do long running well, they've got staff who are paid to do it, haven't they? Long running TV shows. How do they not accidentally make the same episode twice? [00:35:14] Speaker B: Right. Every now and again, I'll be watching something and realize that they have kind of made the same joke or set up again. But, yeah, I mean, they've got big old show Bibles and all that kind of stuff, telling them, hey, you did this already. You should probably check on that. And a staff of people who remember. [00:35:38] Speaker A: It'S their job to do it. [00:35:39] Speaker B: Yes, there's higher stakes than there are for us to remember these conversations. [00:35:46] Speaker A: I don't think there are any stakes. [00:35:47] Speaker B: There are no stakes. [00:35:48] Speaker A: What we're doing here, zero stakes. [00:35:50] Speaker B: I'm sitting in a penguin hoodie right now. I've got nothing. [00:35:56] Speaker A: No stakes? [00:35:57] Speaker B: No stakes. [00:35:58] Speaker A: Absolutely none. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Drinking an old fashioned, talking to my. [00:36:01] Speaker A: Friend, which makes it more fun. [00:36:04] Speaker B: Exactly. So did you watch anything this week? [00:36:09] Speaker A: I did. What I did this week was because I took some opportunity to watch stuff solo that I know there's no chance of you and I seeing together. I got all the subtitley things on my list out the way. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Nice. Okay. [00:36:27] Speaker A: Just tick those off. And I'm glad I did because some excellent movies this week. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Listen, occasionally I will watch a subtitle movie with you. For the record. It is just have to be in the zone for that. [00:36:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So am I describing this right then? So for you, when you're watching a movie with subtitles, it's like twice the effort of watching a non subtitled movie. [00:36:51] Speaker B: I just don't watch the movie at all. I just read the subtitles. I never look up. I only look at the subtitles. And so it's not really like watching a movie at all. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Is it like reading the Licensed novelization tie in? [00:37:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like reading the Licensed novelization tie in of the movie, which I know you love, but is not amongst my hobbies. [00:37:16] Speaker A: And they don't do that at all anymore, do they, for big movies? [00:37:19] Speaker B: I think they do. I'm pretty sure I've seen tie in. Well, yeah, I am fairly certain. I have seen novelizations of films on shelves. This is a question for Ryan. Ryan would know this, but I think they still do this because how do. [00:37:34] Speaker A: You do a tie in novelization for something like Barbie? Off the top of my head? [00:37:38] Speaker B: Well, that seems pretty easy, doesn't it? I'm sure there's so many media you're. [00:37:44] Speaker A: Going to lose a little nuance. [00:37:47] Speaker B: The nuance of the Barbie movie. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Fucking right. [00:37:52] Speaker B: That is listen, it's a delightful movie, but nuanced it is not. That is a let's smack you over the face with every part of what this movie means. [00:38:06] Speaker A: A little bit. [00:38:07] Speaker B: That's what it's meant to do. It's supposed to be like Feminism 101. If you've never thought about this before, here's like a super obvious way for you to see this. [00:38:20] Speaker A: The experience I had in the cinema, watching the Barbie movie will long resonate in my head, right? Because at the end, my head and in my heart and in my tummy because at the end of that film, when the film is finished and you get, like a minute of just shots of landscapes and the human eye and a crying baby in a desert and I was left in a kind of a void of not knowing what to feel. I didn't really know what was going on. It was kind of like my world had ended. It was amazing. And it was the Barbie film, you. [00:38:54] Speaker B: Know what I mean? [00:38:56] Speaker A: It pulled me right out of the world that I was inhabiting and put me in this little bubble of questioning and uncertainty. And it was wonderful. And I don't think you could put that in a 200 page tie in. [00:39:12] Speaker B: I just don't. Go ahead. [00:39:16] Speaker A: Gremlins Too managed it with the bit where the gremlins take over the right. [00:39:22] Speaker B: If you could manage to make that work in a book I think you could probably manage with the Barbie movie. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Brian, are there still movie blockbuster tie ins happening? [00:39:33] Speaker B: And if there are, can Mark have got any? Got any? [00:39:41] Speaker A: No, because if there are, I'm going to get back into it. I only don't do it anymore because I thought they'd stopped making them. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like this is probably one of those just like not being in bookstores thing because that's how we all found them, right? Was it was just like you're wandering through the bookstore and you're like, oh, what's this? And I liked that movie. I shall read this tie in or whatever. It's probably just like you're not searching Amazon or obviously our alternatives, because we don't use Amazon. But yeah. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Where's the cutoff point? As a publisher, how do you decide which of these upcoming blockbusters you're going to fund tie in novelization of and which you aren't? [00:40:22] Speaker B: It's a good question. I don't know who makes those books? I have no idea. [00:40:33] Speaker A: How badly does a movie have to do at the box office to get its tie in novelization pulled? [00:40:38] Speaker B: Oh, that's a good question, too. Or do they keep the tie in and that's where they recoup some of the finance? Maybe people might just randomly pick it up. You should track down one of the authors of one of your favorite movie tie ins, and we should get them on the show to talk about making. [00:40:58] Speaker A: God, can you imagine tie in? [00:41:00] Speaker B: Because now you've got me. I've got questions about this entire process. [00:41:06] Speaker A: Because the ones that I've spoken about on Joe are the ones that properly stuck out in my head. And I bet the author of the fucking ghostbusters movie novelization tie in would be delighted to know that 30 OD years later, I still remember the way that he verbally described Ray getting sucked off by a ghost in that fucking one scene. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Right? I would love to hear from the Gremlins Too person who wrote that little breaking of the fourth wall and book for him. So maybe we ought to try that and we can learn more about these movie tie in books and reignite the flame of your passion for them. [00:41:50] Speaker A: I would absolutely love that. [00:41:52] Speaker B: So what have you watched on that note? [00:41:55] Speaker A: All right, let's do that. So what have we watched together first? Should we get that out of the way? [00:41:59] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah, why not? We watched the Horror Show House Three in Scare quotes the Horror Show. [00:42:11] Speaker A: Never has there been a more egregious example of a film which started life as a completely separate project and then was bought up to try and make it, just to try and stamp a fucking franchise's name on it and shoe on it into a continuity. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Right? Because obviously House One and Two were not related stories, but they took place in a house. And that was central to the bonkersness that was going on, which is not the case. House Three. [00:42:47] Speaker A: There's barely even a house. [00:42:49] Speaker B: That is a negligible part of the story. Yes, some things do happen inside of a house, but that you can hardly call that the central character or location of this at all. [00:43:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Just egregious. Egregious the only word I can come up with. And, hey, it's in and of itself, a perfectly serviceable film. It's ants to shock us. A Bug's life. [00:43:15] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, totally. [00:43:16] Speaker A: Or maybe the other way around. It's volcano to shockers. Dante's Inferno. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Dante's Peak. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Dante's Peak. Which one had Pierce brosnan? That was Dante's Peak. [00:43:29] Speaker B: Yes. Dante's Peak was Pierce Brosnan. [00:43:33] Speaker A: But not half bad. [00:43:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a guy who gets the chair. Is that what it is? No. How does he get the chair? [00:43:45] Speaker A: He does. He does get the chair. And it goes, a horrible killer by the name of Horace Pinker. No, that's the guy from Shocker. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Yeah. That's the wrong movie. [00:43:53] Speaker A: You mean it's the same film? Somebody the cleaver. Jimmy the cleaver something. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Cleaver, but I don't remember what his actual name is. [00:44:02] Speaker A: So he goes to the electric chair when we find out that he'd been kind of raw, dogging, kind of electric current in the months leading up to it to kind of make himself immune. Or am I describing shocker? [00:44:17] Speaker B: Shocker. I don't think we get any sense of how this happens that he's oh, I see. I think he just, for whatever reason, doesn't die. I could be wrong. Maybe this is this, but I don't remember that happening at all. I think he just doesn't. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Mean the fact that I'm interchanging scenes from this movie with scenes from Wes Crayon's movie Shocker should go some way to telling you just how similar these things are. They are the same film. [00:44:48] Speaker B: Which is maybe why they tried to shoehorn it into the house franchise. I'm not sure what year this came out versus Shocker, but basically, whatever the reason is, whether he was building up his Iocaine powder type resistance or just didn't die takes this guy eight minutes to die as he's just basically laughing it off. And then once he is dead, he goes on to terrorize the family of the cop who put him in jail. [00:45:19] Speaker A: Both 1989. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Both 1989, yes. So I must say that the House Three thing was put on there because they were like, Shit, this movie already exists. Yeah, 100% mystery solved here. So if you like Shocker, there's really no reason you shouldn't like this movie. It's pretty violent. It's ridiculous. It's got Lance Henriksen. [00:45:45] Speaker A: Yeah. It leans into the kind of the ridiculousness of know. There are dream sequences. There's some fun effect makeup. There's some fun prosthetics. There's some blood. It's fun. There's some fun. It's just a fun time. If you're bored, this would be a great party movie. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Like, you could absolutely put this on when everybody's just having a brew ski or whatever. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Quite quotable, I dare say. [00:46:12] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:46:15] Speaker A: Yes. House Three is a movie you can enjoy in the right frame of mind. [00:46:19] Speaker B: Indeed. We also watched what else? Oh, so this week, if you haven't been paying attention, if you don't follow old Mike Flanagan on the Blue Sky, you might not realize he's been adding some lists to his letterboxed. And he put a list on his letterboxed of his favorite horror movies. And I was like, well, I love Mike Flanagan stuff, and I tend to feel like I have a lot in common, movie taste wise with him. Yeah. And so I was like, going to pick a movie, and I'm just going to scroll through there and see if there's anything that catches my eye. And so we ended up watching the eyes of my mother. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Just had maniac vibes. Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer vibes and a nice kind of monochrome look at a seemingly unlikely murderer as she goes about her work. Beautiful stuff. [00:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Really? That's a perfect description of it. You don't really need any more than that. That's what this movie is. And it's an hour and 17 minutes, I think. [00:47:34] Speaker A: What could be better? [00:47:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And boy, it makes good use of them, where you can't really call it a slow burn. But it's not necessarily a fast paced movie either. [00:47:44] Speaker A: No, not at all. [00:47:45] Speaker B: Exactly what it needs to do with the amount of time that it has. So you got to watch the eyes. My mother, I don't want to give anything away about it or whatever. It's just something you got to experience. And you'll watch it and you'll see exactly how this has inspired Mike Flanagan's own sort of unflinching filmmaking. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Super interestingly. To me, at least. A social media creator. I've been following across a few platforms for years now. A lady by the name of Deandra, she's like a Elm Street super fan, right? Okay. Has a ridiculously expansive collection of Freddy Krueger merchandise. Really fun, really kind of peppy and high energy. She's really cool. She reckons that she's seen a document leaked from Warner Brothers that lists a Nightmare on Elm Street as being, quote, in development. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Oh, shoot. I mean, it's like literally only a matter of time, right? [00:48:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:50] Speaker B: The real question is who's making it? [00:48:53] Speaker A: Yeah. That's how the news is going to live or die. [00:48:57] Speaker B: Right? [00:48:59] Speaker A: But just knowing that it's on a fucking document somewhere, just knowing that those words are fucking written in a studio somewhere. [00:49:07] Speaker B: Do you have a second place besides Flanners for Nightmare on Elm Street? [00:49:13] Speaker A: Oh, what a great question they have. Yes, I do. Fede Alvarez. [00:49:21] Speaker B: I knew that was what you're going to say. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:24] Speaker B: I was like, that's got to be. [00:49:28] Speaker A: You know, he hasn't done anything since his Evil Dead. But yes, he'd be number two. He'd be chosen two. I've also got it cast. If they want to gender flip it Tilda Swinton. [00:49:40] Speaker B: Okay. [00:49:41] Speaker A: She's my female Freddy Krueger. [00:49:43] Speaker B: I can see that. Absolutely. [00:49:44] Speaker A: And whoever plays Baby Bobby in the Righteous Gemstones what's his fucking name? [00:49:49] Speaker B: Baby Billy. [00:49:50] Speaker A: You mean baby Billy. [00:49:51] Speaker B: Yes. Walton goggins, goggins. Yeah, he's my Freddy. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Just because he's a weird looking fucker. [00:49:57] Speaker B: Totally. And he'd have so much fun with that. Let's be real. [00:50:00] Speaker A: Yes, he would. [00:50:02] Speaker B: Okay. What else did you watch? [00:50:04] Speaker A: So we talked about eyes of my mother. I went ahead and watched Hucera the Bone. Woman what? [00:50:13] Speaker B: Wecera. [00:50:15] Speaker A: Go on. Wecera there you go. There you go. JoseRa. [00:50:21] Speaker B: No h. Woman weh. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Why not? [00:50:24] Speaker B: Because it's Spanish. [00:50:26] Speaker A: Okay, one more time. All right. No h. We. [00:50:32] Speaker B: There you go. You got it. [00:50:34] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Really pleased that I got round to it. Really pleased that I made the time. [00:50:38] Speaker B: To watch it because I've seen good things about that. [00:50:41] Speaker A: It's excellent. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Very focused. What's the story? Yeah, tell me about it. [00:50:45] Speaker A: So you have a young lady who is expecting her first child, and she gets like a kind of a demon kind of attached to her. You know how demons do, like maybe. [00:51:00] Speaker B: A soul demons be attaching. [00:51:03] Speaker A: They really do. Bonded. So she's got this demon on her case, right? And she kind of has to go deeper and deeper into the kind of witchcraft underground scene of where she's from to try and get some people to get rid of this fucking demon that's all up in her business. [00:51:25] Speaker B: Okay. [00:51:27] Speaker A: And she tries various things and various methods fail. She asks around this network of Spanish witches, you know what I mean? And they give her cards. Try this. Yeah, exactly. See these ladies? Strong magic. And it's all about her doing her best to rid herself of this gribbly that's given her grief. [00:51:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:51:49] Speaker A: Interesting. But very folky. Very folk. Horror. Super believable. The job that our main girl does, it's super relatable in terms of how you see her coming to terms with her pregnancy, coming to terms with the mother. She's going to be being kind of almost obsessive about doing everything in the kids room herself, sanding the fucking crib and building furniture from scratch. And she's also got a demon, so relatable it's. Trophy as fuck. You've got loads of contortion bone fucking. Yeah. [00:52:30] Speaker B: This one doesn't sound like it's for me. [00:52:33] Speaker A: Possibly not. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I think demons are boring and don't like demons. Yeah, don't like the contortiony Greeky stuff. No. [00:52:43] Speaker A: Don't like subtitles. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Don't like mom things. [00:52:46] Speaker A: No. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Pregnancy is a none of it. [00:52:50] Speaker A: None of it feels like it will. [00:52:51] Speaker B: Be up your street, but there's probably a lot of our listeners who that is very much right up their alley. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Yes, it can't be mom core if it's still a fetus. [00:53:03] Speaker B: I think we've been calling that mom core, though. [00:53:05] Speaker A: Have we? [00:53:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we were using pregnancy movies as mom core. [00:53:10] Speaker A: Well, that's what this is. It's a big old slice of womb core. [00:53:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:53:17] Speaker A: Yes. Why not? Why not? Yeah. Really cool. Really cool. So that was. [00:53:26] Speaker B: Hey, nice one. [00:53:28] Speaker A: I rock. Let me see. I went back and watched The Bay So movie from 2012. Barry Levinson. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think maybe in 2012 I had heard of this, but for some reason I don't recall this at all. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, I watched it at the time. Absolutely. Great bit of contagion horror. Right? So it's like disease movie. It's message horror. So it's all about kind of pollution and don't pour fucking pesticides and animal fucking chemicals into our lakes, our waters. A kind of a seaside village is infested with kind of sea monkey looking little parasites that lead to the boils and the bleeding and the biting. Yeah, just pure uncomplicated horror. Parable in the bay. Lots of nice gore. Really nice. What I love about contagion movies is how well they do that kind of feeling of society kind of breaking apart. I adore that. And the bay does it really well. Really cool film. [00:54:40] Speaker B: You know how I get about that. Like you said, you're watching movies that I would not watch with you. And you know how I always feel about that. Is like the only episode of the what's the video game The Last of US that I relate to is the guy who makes a compound. I'm like, yeah. What are you fuckers doing? Just go lock yourself up somewhere. Why'd you leave the house? You heard there was a contagion and you left your house. What's wrong with you idiots? [00:55:04] Speaker A: Everything that happens is on you. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a victim blamer when it comes to contagion movies. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Let me see again. I've mocked up all of the subtitle films that we're not allowed to watch together and watched the conference. [00:55:23] Speaker B: Oh, right, yeah. [00:55:25] Speaker A: Really fun. Really keenly observed. I got more out of it, though. It felt like I was at work watching it because the kind of the shots it takes at office culture, air quotes, a lot of it hit quite close to home. So I enjoyed that. [00:55:42] Speaker B: Where's that one from? [00:55:44] Speaker A: It's somewhere Nordic. [00:55:46] Speaker B: Okay. That's what I thought. [00:55:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:55:49] Speaker B: We were going to watch this one together a couple of weeks ago and then I looked in on Letterboxd. It always has, like the original title underneath and I was like, doesn't look like English. No, and it wasn't. [00:56:02] Speaker A: But it isn't one that you should punish yourself for not having. Low, low, you know, low stakes, but fun. [00:56:11] Speaker B: Nice. Listen, sometimes that's all you need has. [00:56:14] Speaker A: To be Barbie Battle, the Five Armies. Yeah, exactly. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Anything else? [00:56:21] Speaker A: Was there anything else? I don't think so. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Okay. [00:56:27] Speaker A: Bone woman eyes of my mother no. Good week filmically. I've watched fuck all this week yet, though. [00:56:35] Speaker B: Well, it is only Tuesday. We have been struggling to try to put this together. And whatnot this week? So that is what it is. I mean, I've been mostly in watching Hallmark Christmas movies this week. Getting in the zone. Yeah. I love a Hallmark Christmas movie. I love the stupid tropes. And as they have over the years kind of made their stance that they're deciding to get more progressive. They get funnier because they're self aware, but only to a point because they still have to be the dumb Hallmark. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Movie that I'd have no interest in at all. Like a Hallmark movie that had become self aware, that had become sentient. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It's not like that. It's not like in the sense where it's really winking at itself. It's just that there are little jokes and things here and there that are kind of acknowledging the real world exists. [00:57:32] Speaker A: I see. [00:57:32] Speaker B: But it's still within the very Hallmark. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Because you still have to make your Hallmark fucking movie, right? [00:57:37] Speaker B: Because nobody wants, like, you're not watching a Hallmark movie for a message on progressivism or anything like that. It's just like now divorced people exist and gay people exist and people of color exist. And there's just little, like, notes in them and they've become even more fun where it's like it used to just kind of be a formula. They've done weirder shit with them than they did before. So I watched one movie the other day that literally the premise of this is like, this guy, his wife died and he is stressed out about he's a bad cook and he's stressed out about making a turkey for Christmas to give his daughter the at home Christmas that she's wanted since her mother died because they always go out or whatever. And he spends a month calling a hotline to learn how to make a turkey. This is an absurd premise because he's falling in love with the girl who's, like, teaching him how to make the turkey on the hotline, obviously. But he's calling this hotline every day. [00:58:40] Speaker A: That's what the movie is about. [00:58:40] Speaker B: That's what the movie is about. It's so absurd. And you're like, this is not a real world. How is this a business model? That a holiday hotline that people call about turkeys for a month before Christmas. This makes no sense. [00:58:55] Speaker A: Not sustainable. [00:58:56] Speaker B: There's one that I watched, like, the day before that reunites Lacey Chabairt and Scott Wolfe from Party of Five. And as a Party of Five fan, I was like super stoked on that. And they play siblings who find out that their mother was a duchess in Scotland. And if they want, they can inherit the ancestral home that her estranged brother lived in until he died. And this is one of my favorite Hallmark tropes and really movie tropes in general because it's so stupid. The thing where every time a movie goes to Ireland or like the locals are these insane boisterous stereotypes and they're constantly talking about, in Scotland we do this, blah, blah, blah. In Ireland we do this. And they always have to mention Scotland, Ireland, like, whatever. They can't just do something. It can't be like, I'm going to order a whiskey. It's like in Scotland, we order whiskey. I want a movie like this where a scot comes to America and everyone is like, in America we do Jaeger bombs and just dumb ass like a vodka and Red Bull, a traditional American drink. Like the whole movie. Oh, man, it just is so stupid. And I enjoy the hell out of it. So that's mostly what I've been doing this week. [01:00:23] Speaker A: I feel as though the Wayne brothers should come out of retirement to a Hallmark movie. [01:00:30] Speaker B: That's another great thing, is are you familiar with Lifetime movies? [01:00:36] Speaker A: Nah. [01:00:37] Speaker B: So Lifetime, which was sort of made as an entertainment for women channel, but mostly was full of movies about women getting murdered, things like that. Like really melodramatic murder movies. And they'll do these dramatic, true stories of people like Scott Peterson and stuff like that. And Kristen Wigg and Will Ferrell made one, but they played it straight, which made it even funnier. It's a parody. That is not a parody. It is a straight Lifetime movie with all the conventions of a Lifetime movie. But it is Will Ferrell and Kristen Wigg. So you understand that it's making fun of it, but it's not. It was so good. It's like the weirdest meta thing I have ever seen. And it was an absolute delight. So I get a kick out of all of, yeah, cheesy kinds of movies and stuff like that. But I did watch a couple of things. I got into a documentary mode over this week. I just was not in the mood to watch a lot of movies. So I watched Satan Wants You, which is it's a documentary about the satanic panic and specifically about the book that was kind of at the center of the satanic panic, michelle remembers, which was this fabricated book, basically, where this girl goes through therapy and over the course of therapy, realizes that she was abused by a satanic cult growing up. So of course, none of this happened. But it started this whole spiral that ended up with all these daycares in California and I think New Jersey, where the proprietors were arrested for satanic abuse. And people I talked about this a while ago, like the director of The Devil's Candy. No, that's not it. What was the one with it's got the love witch that's that was like the hot girl at the center and that's all that's got it's got going for it. The director of that still claims there are tunnels under the McMartin preschool where they were doing satanic rituals and all this. And it was all bullshit. None of it was real. And so Satan Wants You kind of focuses on that woman and the psychiatrist that she worked with and later married, which is so it's an interesting premise. I think it's really poorly done. If you've never heard of the Satanic Panic, it's like an okay introduction to it, but it's really kind of the message it kind of comes out with makes it seem like she was some home wrecking bitch or something like that, when she was like a young person being taken advantage of by a psychologist. It's basically just like interviews with people who knew them, including the ex wife and children of the psychiatrist who married Michelle. And basically through the whole thing, it just kind of points you at like, yeah, she was just obsessed with this guy and she took him away from his family and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, okay, it's not really how power dynamics work, but fine. And it doesn't really delve super deeply into the Satanic Panic and really what that did to people at the time. [01:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, which you'd think it would. I mean, what angle is it coming from then? [01:04:13] Speaker B: That's the thing is it really feels like it's more interested in the personal lives of these particular people who aren't that interesting when it comes down to it. When what is more interesting about the Satanic panic is like how it took hold and the incredible consequences that that had for people. And it talks on a surface level about that, but doesn't really delve into it and doesn't ask hard questions of the people that it interviews. Really kind of takes things at face value from people. And you're like, okay, this could have been an episode of 2020 or something like that. It didn't need to be a documentary. Yeah, it could be an article. We caught up with the family of Michelle from Michelle Remembers. Here's what they had to say, that kind of thing. It didn't really need to be a documentary. So I was a little disappointed in satan wants you. But I also watched the documentary everyone watched last week, which was Escaping Twin Flames. That boy, howdy if you haven't heard of Escaping Twin Flames yet, I don't know how you've been on the Internet, but it is a documentary about a couple who basically started a cult around the idea of finding your soulmate, your twin flame, and the idea that you only have one. You have a twin flame who you're supposed to be with. And thus they would encourage people whose Twin Flames wanted nothing to do with them to continue pursuing that person. Because that's your twin flame. One of the people in this legit gets arrested for stalking because they keep telling her, you got to keep going for it. Are you really going to let him get away? And it's super predatory. They would search Facebook groups, like trauma groups, fibromyalgia groups, things like that, where people are deeply in pain and suffering, people who are largely not conventionally attractive people, just people who are desperate. And it's largely people with unrequited loves, like someone who was obsessed with their personal trainer, things like that. [01:06:34] Speaker A: Parasocial relationships. [01:06:35] Speaker B: Parasocial relationships, basically. And this couple would basically convince them that that's your Twin Flame. And you. Have to pursue them at all costs. And, of course, you have to pay a ton of money for the courses. You would hate it. Because the thing that you hate in these things is that as soon as these people start getting taken in by these people, you're like, I simply would not I don't understand them. Bing. [01:06:58] Speaker A: At this point, I would have rumbled the jig and yeah, I simply would. [01:07:03] Speaker B: And these are some of the just worst, most uncharismatic, most punchable cult leaders I have ever seen. Genuinely, if I got stuck in a conversation with these people, I would simply walk away. [01:07:20] Speaker A: What they're doing? Ruining it for those of us who haven't got it together yet to start their cult. [01:07:26] Speaker B: Right, yeah, exactly. You should write them a letter. [01:07:30] Speaker A: Maybe I will. [01:07:31] Speaker B: It is deeply like and that's the thing, is they're such awful, unlikable people that you can see that's exactly why they chose the victims. They did. Because the rest of us would punch them in the face. Yeah. They found most desperate people, the most deluded with these ideas of, like, I can get this person to love me. Please help me get this person to love me. The loneliest people who see a guy who is awful, like, look up Twin Flames right now, and I just want. [01:08:06] Speaker A: You to look at I am doing. [01:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah, the guy that guy who looks like just, like, budget Jared Leto and Stringy awful hair is just horribly unlikable. Yeah, it's an interesting documentary, but you would not last long because you simply would not be able to understand how these people. [01:08:32] Speaker A: I do enjoy. How the fuck are you falling for this kind of factor? [01:08:38] Speaker B: Yeah, this will have that big time. [01:08:42] Speaker A: Because beautiful. [01:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah, they're repellent, these people. They're just like, literally 95% of us, if we just had to encounter them in a casual conversation, we would be like, that's the worst person I've met in my life. [01:08:57] Speaker A: Turn around and walk the fuck away. [01:08:58] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. [01:09:00] Speaker A: No, I enjoy that. Thank you. [01:09:02] Speaker B: Escaping twin flames. If you haven't watched it already, the rest of the internet has, so get on board. Yeah, and I think that's it. That was my week. [01:09:12] Speaker A: Thank you. Corrigan I should look forward to that. [01:09:15] Speaker B: Indeed. I really would like you to text me during it. Kristen's been texting me while she watched it and then she made her roommate watch it. She said, Paige is, like, really mad now and she's punching people. Yeah, I get it. I totally get it. [01:09:31] Speaker A: Cool. Good. [01:09:33] Speaker B: Let's get back to our sleepy so and SOS, shall we? [01:09:39] Speaker A: What was it that got me to dust this topic off again? [01:09:42] Speaker B: Because yeah, so, last week, I talked about my sleepwalking goddaughter, who is just downstairs right now, scaring the living shit out of me when she woke up in the middle of the night. And as we've talked about before, you're a sleepwalker and one of your sons is a sleepwalker. Only one of them. Right. [01:10:02] Speaker A: Only one of them so far. And my dad is also a sleepwalker. [01:10:06] Speaker B: And your dad's a sleepwalker. Right. And so you had pointed out, we've talked about things people have done under the influence of Ambien and heavy sleep drugs like that, your Z drugs, as you called them. But we hadn't just tackled what happens just when you sleep, like, what kind of weird things happen when people sleepwalk, because it can get pretty crazy. So we thought, why not delve into this a little bit more? [01:10:39] Speaker A: And I might have said this when we sort of talked about drug induced kind of sleep craziness, but I think what keeps drawing me back to this topic about that weird fucking, that weird sliver of space between the fully waking rational world and your mind just literally telling you shit for a laugh conscious. [01:11:04] Speaker B: Right. [01:11:06] Speaker A: I love that. It is such a narrow little bit of space between those two states. And I continue to love the fact that it's I hope I'm not just repeating a trope here, Eileen, do call me on this, but it's still largely a mystery, isn't it, why dreams exist? [01:11:27] Speaker B: In fact, the next thing that I had written down was sleepwalking is still something of a mystery to us. [01:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I adore that our minds and the function of our minds and the healthy kind of mechanisms of our minds still carry. There are still areas that we just it does that don't know why. [01:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah, right, exactly. Well, let me tell you a little bit about that before we sort of get into some stories of this. So, yeah, like you just said, sleepwalking is a little bit of a mystery. Despite its prevalence in movies and cartoons and whatnot, it's actually quite rare. Only 6.9% of people will ever experience a single episode of sleepwalking in their life. So not just pattern sleepwalkers, but just even once. Only 6.9% of people will experience that. And only 1.5% of adults have had a sleepwalking episode in adulthood. So most people who have ever had an incident of sleepwalking, they were a child. Usually you grow out of it. [01:12:35] Speaker A: I'd love to know how many of that tiny proportion of adults who've had a sleepwalking episode, how many of them were pissed but super drunk. [01:12:46] Speaker B: Sure. Well, we'll talk about some of the reasons that this happens, for sure. But yeah. So 1.5% of adults. So congratulations, my night pissing friend. You are in a league of your own. One of only 1.5% of people who have this, it is known that genetics can play a role. So you doing it makes it more likely that one or more of your children will do it. And the closer the genetic link, the more likely sleepwalking is to be a shared trait to the point where identical twins are more likely than fraternal ones to both be. Somnambulous, yeah, but even with that genetic link, it's still rare. We're talking less than 10% of related people have multiple sleepwalkers in the same family. So even though it's an increased amount, it's still super rare. So again, congratulations. You your dad, and it's Pete who sleepwalks, right? [01:13:46] Speaker A: It is, yeah. [01:13:48] Speaker B: You guys are a super rare bunch. This does not happen often. [01:13:55] Speaker A: Made me very happy. [01:13:56] Speaker B: There you go. You guys are rarities. You've got green eyes. You are a sleepwalker. There you go. So it can also be caused by medications or other things like alcohol. So we've obviously talked about how this can be with medications when we did our entire ambient episode. But it can also be health conditions, which can include things as simple as just being stressed out. If you're having a stressful day, you might sleepwalk. It can be sleep deprivation, migraines, fevers, restless leg syndrome, and breathing disorders like sleep apnea. All of those can potentially contribute to people sleepwalking. And basically what sleepwalking is is what's called a parasomnia, in which generally the sleeper is disturbed during non rapid eye movement sleep most often in the first hour or two of sleep, which is apparently the deepest part of the sleep cycle, which kind of makes sense. When you just crash, it's usually kind of hard to wake you for a while. So that's your real deep point. You go straight into sleeping really hard before you start getting into those light and REM sleep cycles. So it's non REM sleep in which this happens. It can include a number of actions, like wandering around, sitting up, or just going about normal activities like cooking, taking a shower, or even driving. And funny enough, healthline notes specifically that urinating in places that aren't toilets is a habit of sleepwalkers. [01:15:32] Speaker A: Bang, bang. [01:15:33] Speaker B: Yep. So while your affliction may be rare, at least you're not the only one who gets a little leaky in weird places. [01:15:39] Speaker A: Love that. [01:15:40] Speaker B: Absolutely love that. [01:15:43] Speaker A: No, go. Please go. [01:15:45] Speaker B: Well, did you have was it something related to that? Because I was just going to explain. [01:15:48] Speaker A: Different things, what I really can't work out. Like take something like nightmares, right? What actual function could there possibly be to your body deciding, do you know what? While you're asleep, I'm going to play you some scary shit and you're not even going to know why it's scary, but it's going to be super scary. [01:16:10] Speaker B: It's going to be terrifying. I mean, obviously dreams and nightmares are a slightly different thing than sleepwalking in an of course. And I don't know that that's from an evolutionary standpoint, a thing that's necessarily a boon to us or whatever so much as it is just kind of like our weird brains process stuff while we're sleeping, which is what a lot of people think. [01:16:37] Speaker A: A lot of people think that's what dreams are all about. [01:16:40] Speaker B: If we're stressed out or things like that. When you experienced it for the first time with the COVID dreams, well, yeah, it isn't necessarily related to COVID, but you're having weird ass dreams as you're stressed out from this. [01:16:53] Speaker A: That's something tangible that I think I've learned over the past few years of Joag. You cannot now convince me that nightmares are not a reaction to the fucked upness of the external world. [01:17:10] Speaker B: Right. It's not a matter of like, oh, you can read dreams and these are symbols of things and stuff like that. That's not what's going on up there. [01:17:19] Speaker A: Bullshit. [01:17:19] Speaker B: But we are dealing with the stressors of life and that may manifest as like a really direct dream. My husband has nightmares about being uncouth in social situations. So it'll be like right, it's like the sweetest thing. He had this whole nightmare he was telling me about, like a Spider Woman chasing or something like that. And then at the end of the dream, it was like it turned out that he had eaten her piece of pizza without asking and she was really disappointed in him for it. [01:17:51] Speaker A: So it was all totally justifiable right. [01:17:53] Speaker B: No, he was really upset, like, oh, my God, this is really uncool of me to eat that piece of pizza that belonged to somebody else without asking and he felt guilt. [01:18:04] Speaker A: It's actually quite upsetting to be it is. [01:18:09] Speaker B: Golly. And that's the thing, is that's like a very literal sort of manifestation, whereas I will straight up just have blood and guts dreams of people being shreds. And it's like, that's not the stressor in my real life. It's just how my brain is processing that I'm stressed out. [01:18:28] Speaker A: It happens too directly to write it off as coincidence. Right, exactly. COVID nightmares was 100% a thing. Ukraine invasion nightmares, that was the thing. [01:18:39] Speaker B: I've had a lot of Israel Palestine nightmare type things. Again, not about it per se, but like, just sleeping poorly, dreaming about the events. [01:18:47] Speaker A: Absolutely not. But when there's stress, kind of pervasive stress every fucking way, my brain will use that as an excuse to launch some fucking real tasty treats on exactly that. [01:19:03] Speaker B: So, yeah, kind of a different thing from sleepwalking, necessarily. Especially, yeah, sleepwalking and dreaming is really interesting because one of the important elements of sleepwalking is that the area of your brain that's responsible for memory is shut down during sleepwalking. And so largely sleepwalking is characterized by an inability of the sleepwalker to recall that they did there's. This can happen, that people will know why they sleepwalked. A case of this, for example, is Mike Berbiglia, the comedian and actor. He famously sleepwalked out a window because he had a dream that the hotel he was in was under attack and so he jumped out of a window. And now I saw one of his live shows and he was talking about now he sleeps in mittens and wrapped in basically like a straitjacket type thing so that he can't get up and harm himself while he's sleeping. But he has, as opposed to most sleepwalking, which is non REM sleep. He has a REM sleep disorder. So because this happens in REM sleep, he actually is somewhat aware of what's happening because that memory center of the brain is not shut down while he's doing this. But generally you won't have any idea. You won't be like, oh, I had a dream and I did this. You will have no recollection whatsoever that anything happened. [01:20:39] Speaker A: This topic actually got me to have a conversation with my mother, right, because I half remembered back when I was like a super small kid, one of my relatives on my grandma's side, maybe my great grandmother or something along that kind of area, had died through sleepwalking out of her bedroom window. [01:21:05] Speaker B: We're going to talk about that. [01:21:08] Speaker A: What? My great nanny Thomas? [01:21:09] Speaker B: Not her, but about sleepwalking out of windows. [01:21:12] Speaker A: Well, it turns out I had misremembered it. She did indeed die from plummeting out of her bedroom window, but it wasn't sleepwalking. She had dementia quite badly and would wander around at night. [01:21:28] Speaker B: I was afraid you were going to say she did it on purpose. And I was like, that's really dumb. No, I was like, oh God, where is this going? Okay. I mean, that's horrible. [01:21:39] Speaker A: It is found the next morning in a garden. [01:21:45] Speaker B: Oh man, that's wild. Like kind of the sundowning thing or whatever. Yeah. This is your great grandmother? [01:21:51] Speaker A: Yes. [01:21:52] Speaker B: Did you know this great grandmother at all or is this before you came up? [01:21:56] Speaker A: No, I couldn't conjure up a kind of a memory of a memory of her physically, but I definitely met her. Yes. [01:22:03] Speaker B: Okay, got you. Interesting that's I have like, well, one grandpa I never met, but one that it's like, yeah, I guess I kind of knew this guy, but he died when I was like one of her count. That's really interesting though. And we'll get to the windows thing again and not being able to recall things also goes along with the fact that in your sort of between and sleeping and waking state, pain tends to also be masked. And I will come back to that because that's relevant. So in general, sleepwalking is pretty innocuous, if obviously a little scary, but at times it can get dangerous. In a study of 100 repeat sleepwalkers, 57.9% had either been injured or injured someone else while that they were sleepwalking. So more than half have either injured themselves or others while sleeping. Obviously only 100 people. So we can't know how representative that is. But that is something. And as a result of this, despite the old wisdom, you actually should try to gently wake up a sleepwalker so that they don't fuck themselves up falling downstairs or chopping their fingers off trying to make a late night snack or things like that. [01:23:21] Speaker A: What is the wisdom then in that old saying, why should you not wake them up? [01:23:27] Speaker B: I think part of it is that it has to be gentle so if you scare someone, potentially, you can cause them other problems, like they might violently act out. Because one of the things about sleepwalkers is that in that state, they're largely asleep, so they aren't necessarily aware of what's going on around them. So basically, if you come up and you're like, what are you doing? They might just fight you because they have no idea what's going on. You could be an attacker or a dragon or whatever as a result of this. So I think that's largely what it's about is trying not to cause more harm by jolting someone awake. But you can gently wake someone, know, lead them back to bed, and they'll probably pretty much immediately fall back. [01:24:28] Speaker A: The next time Pete sleepwalks. Because his thing is he only does it when it's cute and beautiful. He is cute and beautiful, and when he sleepwalks, just never more. So I'm going to document it next time. I'm going to have a sneaky little record of him next time he got it around. [01:24:48] Speaker B: As long as you don't post it on the internet, I'm sure he'd find it very adorable too. [01:24:51] Speaker A: Yes, he would. [01:24:54] Speaker B: So coming back to your dear great grandmother, this brings me to one of the most fascinating phenomena related to sleepwalking falling out of windows. In one of the articles I read, this was actually listed as one of the most common sleepwalking accidents. And sure enough, when I started looking into it, it happens kind of a lot. So I'm just going to give you a couple of examples. Well, for example, in 2000 and 918 year old Rachel Ward got out of her bed in her West Sussex home after sitting her art practical exam earlier that day with several other exams on the she had she was obviously stressed. It's eight know, going through all that stuff. She put on a jumper, which I think is a sweatshirt in American English. [01:25:44] Speaker A: Yes, it is. [01:25:45] Speaker B: Then opened up a first floor window, which is a second floor window in American English, and landed 25ft below on a strip of grass next to her car. And she actually landed on her feet, leaving divots six inches deep in the ground oh, shit. And collapsed. She fell fell. That's a leap six inches into the ground standing up. So, yeah, she collapsed onto the grass after that. And she was actually super lucky because there is a photo of where she landed on the grass and it is like just this thin strip and then it's the driveway. So it would have been like pavement if she had landed slightly forward from where she did. As it was, she yelled for her mom, who came out and found her in what looked like a trance. She and her husband carried Rachel back inside where she fell back asleep. But they figured, you know what, we should probably follow up with this. And so they put her in the car where she continued to sleep and brought her to the hospital, where she received x rays and CT scans, but was actually found to have no injuries at all. She said that her back ached a little afterwards, but she had no recollection of anything but feeling cold. And her parents being above her, talking to her and telling her that she had to go to the hospital. She actually posited that she was like because she's like a dancer. And she was like, maybe it's because I spend 5 hours doing leg workouts and stuff every day that I didn't injure myself when I fell out of the window. [01:27:20] Speaker A: It kind of hurt. [01:27:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Landing on your feet for most of us would just like, completely collapse. [01:27:27] Speaker A: And a life of back pain. [01:27:29] Speaker B: Exactly. And she just had a little bit of back pain and was okay. [01:27:33] Speaker A: Fantastic. [01:27:35] Speaker B: In 2012, a nine year old North Yorkshire girl named Jasmine Clark, who had a history of sleepwalking, moved into a new bedroom, a blessing and a curse. It may have been the disruption of changing rooms that caused her sleepwalking that night at around 01:00 A.m., at which point her parents awoke to the sound of her screams, jasmine had opened up the bedroom window and fallen 30ft to the ground. 30ft? No, here's the blessing part. They had removed the old carpet from that new bedroom and rolled it up, placing it in the garden until they could get rid of it the next day, Jasmine happened to fall right onto that rolled up carpet, breaking her. [01:28:18] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [01:28:19] Speaker B: She suffered only some bruising and a cut on her chin that required very, very lucky. It was also I mean, what's unlucky, obviously, that it happened. But the thing with this was that they had basically it was like the permitting of the house made it so, like there was this loft window and they had to have it as like a fire safety thing. And when they had asked the permit people, can we put a lock on it? They said no, because for fire safety, it had to be accessible. And so basically it was because of these safety laws that the girl was able to open up the window and fall out of it. [01:28:59] Speaker A: Man, blessing and curse. [01:29:01] Speaker B: Yeah. All of it is just kind of like yikes. Okay. Yeesh. In 20, 18, 35 year old Randy Potasane took some of his girlfriend's sleeping pills before bed. And at around 05:00 A.m., he climbed out of an 8th floor window of her Lower East Side New York apartment and fell six stories onto some scaffolding below. He had to be rescued by firefighters clad only in his boxers and had broken his leg and a rib. [01:29:35] Speaker A: Was it at that point he woke up? [01:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think once he was freezing in his boxers with his body all broken, he finally woke up and they called the cops and the firefighters came. [01:29:48] Speaker A: Incredible. [01:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And in the pictures from this. He looks very confused. The poor guy just like, no idea what is going on and how he ended up there. It's basically his girlfriend who filled in what happened because he had no idea how he ended up down there. And in February of this year, 18 year old Australian dairy farmer Abby Sizer was staying at a friend's house when she woke up in what she described as pain and agony. It turned out that she'd been dreaming of milking her cows and ended up walking straight out a second floor window, falling four and a half meters, shattering her spine and pelvis. Yeah. Took about a year for her to recover from. [01:30:33] Speaker A: Holy shit. [01:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah. But I mean, better than the alternative when it comes down to it. [01:30:39] Speaker A: Well, yeah, exactly. And in her head, her brain is all like, milk the cows do. [01:30:46] Speaker B: And it's what the idea that she woke up in pain and agony? That's the thing. It's like you don't necessarily know. And then all of a sudden you wake up and then you're like, why does everything hurt exactly like that? [01:30:59] Speaker A: Detective way at the start, I am shot a man. I am a murderer. [01:31:03] Speaker B: Right. [01:31:04] Speaker A: One thing I have sworn to eliminate the irony, oistbaba own petal. [01:31:19] Speaker B: So, yeah, just one of the wild things about these stories is that unless the sleepwalker immediately wakes up, not only is the memory part shut off, but also the pain. And in many of these stories I read, these folks suffered major injuries and just went right back to sleep, not realizing they had broken bones and other such things until they woke up and the pain hit. Which obviously makes the situation even more dangerous, because if, say, you hit your head, you could potentially die if you don't immediately get treatment. So I didn't tell any. There are instances of people actually dying, obviously falling out of these windows, but you're going to tell us about a sleepwalking death, so I figured I'd stick to the things that survived. [01:32:05] Speaker A: Thank you. Very kind. And in each of these instances, I guess it's down to the whims of the sleepwalker's psyche about how they're going to hurt themselves and how badly they're going to hurt themselves. But in each of these cases at least, it was only themselves that were hurt. Right. There was just a fucking wild case in 1987 in Canada, right, in Ontario, of a fellow by the name of Ken Parks, a guy who had quite a kind of a rocky upbringing, kind of very fractious relationships with his stepfather, with his biological dad. Dropped out of school at 15, but his life was on the up and up. He married a runaway teen that he'd met when he was younger. They had kids, but the guy was mentally quite kind of a difficult time upstairs. He was a gambling addict. He got sacked from a job he had in 1986 for theft and sleep was always an issue. Depression was always an issue. Medication was always an issue. Which culminated in 1987 with Ken coming to coming round, snapping back to himself with blood all over his hands at a police station. [01:33:35] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:33:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Some 14 km away from his house. Right. He had jumped into his car, driven 14 miles to his in law's house, let himself into their home with a key that he had, and beat them both to death with a fucking tire iron. Right. And then drove to the police station to hand himself in his father in law. [01:34:06] Speaker B: He drove to the police station to turn himself in before he woke up. [01:34:11] Speaker A: Every account lists him as coming to in the police station. [01:34:14] Speaker B: Wow. [01:34:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Just absolutely crazy. And some of the detail, I mean, it was only one of his in laws who died. I can't remember which survived. Bear with me a SEC. Yeah. His father in law died, his mother in law survived, and he was acquitted. The court acquitted him. Neurologists neuroscientists studied him and it was put down to Homicidal. Sleepwalking. Sleepwalking Homicidal. Somnambulism, wow. [01:34:52] Speaker B: Did his mother in law testify or anything like that? Was it like he was in a trance or anything like that when described? [01:35:01] Speaker A: Well, the jury acquitted him completely. There was no kind of enmity or bad blood between him and his ex in laws. [01:35:12] Speaker B: Okay. [01:35:14] Speaker A: He still had a key to their home. Just incredible that his his mind would direct him to go there, to drive there. [01:35:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's like yeah. It's not like he was fending off an attack. He thought they were someone else or something like that. His body got him up to go and exactly drive to their place. [01:35:35] Speaker A: Them specifically. Yes. Interesting. But the fact that there was absolutely no motive, the fact that he had this history of kind of sleep issues, this history of showing remorse, the guy was fucking crushed that he'd done this and he was acquitted. [01:35:54] Speaker B: Wow. That's bonkers. [01:35:57] Speaker A: So there's precedent yes. In Canada. That's what I'm saying. [01:36:04] Speaker B: If you want to pull this off. [01:36:06] Speaker A: There'S precedent is the message here. [01:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:09] Speaker A: If that's what you're asking me, I will tell you there is precedent for this in Canada. [01:36:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I read various just sort of skimmed through some stories about Homicidal murders, and I think one of the earliest ones, basically at this point, they think like, that was not sleepwalking. I meant homicidal sleepwalking, not homicidal murders. [01:36:32] Speaker A: Sleepwalking sounds like a good name for a band. [01:36:35] Speaker B: Homicidal. [01:36:37] Speaker A: Homicidal Murders. [01:36:42] Speaker B: But yeah, it's one of those things kind of like when we talked about the ambient defense that it's not necessarily going to get you off the hook because it is very hard to prove that you were sleepwalking. And a lot of times people are just using that as a cover, like, oh, I woke up and my partner is dead. Oh, what happened? And then it turns out that there was like all kinds of strife. [01:37:11] Speaker A: Collect all of this life insurance that we took out last week. [01:37:13] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That's always one of my favorite genres of dateline is just they got an insurance policy a week before and then killed a person. It's like you got like come on, come on, play the long game here. You've got to let that settle for a while before you go and murder someone. You can't just up it to a million dollars and then poison them a. [01:37:33] Speaker A: Week later after googling how disposed corpse. [01:37:38] Speaker B: Right. It's incredible how often that either that the search history says something about exactly the method they used or the search history says how to delete search history. Oh, boy. Okay. It's a good thing murderers are idiots. It's really helpful, but yeah, it's fascinating. There are certainly several cases in which people have committed murders where it really does seem like it was because of that. There was nothing that they could do. They had no memory of having done it. My mother is yelling outside my door. At what? Yeah. Who knows? No idea. But yeah, it's like kind of a terrifying thing to think want. If you have sleepwalkers in your family, I don't want you to be terrified of them, but maybe you should be terrified. [01:38:35] Speaker A: Maybe you should be. [01:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:37] Speaker A: Ask the family of Parks. [01:38:39] Speaker B: Right? It might get a little scary right now, mark, you're just peeing on TVs. But who knows? [01:38:46] Speaker A: It's a very just I'm not actively still like a rogue kind of nightly every other week pissing on a telly. I did that the one time. [01:38:55] Speaker B: One time. It's good to clarify, but yes. [01:39:01] Speaker A: Who knows when Laura put that kind of terrified hand on my shoulder? Mark, what are you doing? She's lucky she didn't get know. [01:39:08] Speaker B: Right? Like, if you had been holding something, who knows what would have happened? Well, I was nothing that was going to cause a lot of know that's you might want to tell Laura. Be careful. You want to wake me gently even if I'm about to destroy your expensive technology. [01:39:30] Speaker A: I don't think I've got any more tries of that left. [01:39:37] Speaker B: I don't think you have a choice. Once I get to try that, you only get one. And then it's sorry, buddy, you're in the dog house. [01:39:45] Speaker A: Bye. [01:39:47] Speaker B: Yeah, you just make sure there's no weapons in Pete's room or anything like. [01:39:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a given. [01:39:54] Speaker B: He takes his katana off the wall and comes for you. [01:40:01] Speaker A: But look, you know, imagine being in the shoes of Ken Parks or similar, when you realize you've done something so out of character, something you never in a million years would have done while conscious. [01:40:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:13] Speaker A: But for fucking reasons known only to itself, your brain has decided that you're a murderer when you sleep, then that fucking that love. That super fun. Yeah. [01:40:24] Speaker B: I'm glad that all I do is mumble and laugh at dream jokes. [01:40:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it could be worse. I don't know if I've said this before, but Laura has a restless night leg. [01:40:35] Speaker B: Yes, you have admitted to kicking your partner. [01:40:39] Speaker A: Yes, but that was in the early days when I thought maybe that would solve it. Now there is no solving it. You've just got to write. No, you just got to wait. [01:40:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I've got some great stuff I'll have to tell you about, though, that helps me with my restless leg. Tastes like chalk, but it works. Okay, friends, if you're sleepwalkers, we want to hear about your sleepwalking stories. Now that that phobia is firmly established in my brain, I want to hear about other people who walk the walk of the murderers and the window jumpers and all of those kinds of things. So please tell us your sleepwalking stories if you have them. We'd love to hear any of your family members or any that you've heard, we'd love. [01:41:19] Speaker A: It obviously goes without saying. We'll talk about them on the cast, if they're good. [01:41:25] Speaker B: If they're good. Otherwise, we will shame you by not talking about them at all. Thank you for listening once again to this rambling Thanksgiving week exhausted episode of the Jack of All Graves podcast. We are so thankful for you, and we hope that you're feeling thankful and loved and surrounded by family or chosen family or by yourself, if that's the best place for you to be this fine week. [01:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah, no judgment. [01:41:53] Speaker B: No judgment there, believe me. And as you go into now, the end of November, leading into the real down and dirty holiday season, there's one thing you got to do. [01:42:06] Speaker A: You got to stay spooky. [01:42:08] Speaker B: You got to stay spooky.