Ep. 152: Hospital Hell pt. 3: emergency in the ER

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Yes. Joe, what do you got marked the end? What was why are you laughing? [00:00:07] Speaker B: I'm not. I'm laughing because I always I'm enjoying that about to record Jo AG kind of feeling I love every week. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Letting it wash over you. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's beautiful. [00:00:20] Speaker A: I like that. It caused a little giddy giggle. [00:00:23] Speaker B: I often express the my feelings with laughter. [00:00:26] Speaker A: It's true. You do do that. All right. Well, then, Mark. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Yesterday marked the end of my birthday week, and we celebrated by driving down the shore to go see Further Seems Forever, and the Juliana theory in Asbury Park. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:45] Speaker A: Asbury park is a really interesting place with some fascinating history. [00:00:50] Speaker B: You said these were emo bands. Yes. Yeah, because they got some emo ass names. Those are fucking emo band names, big time. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Anyone who was in the scene back then knows exactly who Juliana therian Further Seems Forever are, and it was a delight. Good. But, yeah. We went to Asbury, and I love Asbury Park when Richard, our dear listener and friend Richard, came here and visited with his wife, took them to the beach there. It's what you think of when you think of the beach boardwalks of the East Coast in the early 20th century, the Coney Island stuff, all of that. That's what Asbury Park was and is. It was basically made as a copy of Steeplechase Park and all that kind of stuff, as many places on the shore kind of were, and it still retains a lot of that. And it's been through a lot over the years, basically, from, like, the 70s forward. It was almost like derelict for a while. Most things were shut down. There are two huge buildings. Well, there were three. One they did tear down, but there are two huge buildings left. There one that was a casino, one that was a convention hall. And the convention hall is, like, very upgraded and all that kind of stuff now. I mean, it looks old, and all that kind of stuff retains all of its old charm. From the outside, it looks just like it did in the 1920s. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Beautiful. Oh, that is nice. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah. The inside, however, hosts huge concerts and stuff like that. Demi lovato played there in August. There's cute little restaurants and shops, great little oyster bar there. And then the casino is like this busted ass old frame of a building. There's nothing left in it. There's murals on the inside and all of that. Unfortunately, it's super dangerous, so they just a few months ago, closed it to the public. So you used to be able to ride your bike through it, walk through, look at all that kind of stuff. But they're fixing it up, which is kind of a bummer. So, yeah, it was like derelict for a while. It was sounds like the kind of. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Place that were in the UK. It would be a wetherspoons by now. [00:03:05] Speaker A: You would be hard pressed to turn it into one. It's not a building. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Tim from Weatherspoons could do it. Maybe. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. It's not really a building. It's really like a frame. And, yeah, it's a cool spot. It kind of started to make a comeback. And then Hurricane Sandy hit and did a lot of damage to all of Jersey Shore and Asbury actually made it out better than other places did and was able to reopen 2013. And since then is almost too nice because the thing about Asbury Park is, like, it's a little creepy with that old broken down casino and all that kind of stuff. It's got a spooky vibe to it that I've always really loved. And one of its dark little features is right by that convention hall in the middle of the boardwalk where there's a rock bearing a memorial to the SS Morrow Castle. And while I've Idly read that sign many times, I mean, I have tons of pictures of this sign and everything. For whatever reason, it never really struck me as all that interesting until a wayward weird New Jersey Instagram post alerted me to the fact that it's more than just a tragic shipwreck. It's also a murder mystery. Yes, I'm in the SS Morrow Castle wrecked catastrophically off the shore of Asbury Park on September 8, 1934. [00:04:37] Speaker B: This is like a military ship. Yes. [00:04:39] Speaker A: No, it's not. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:41] Speaker A: I will get okay. [00:04:44] Speaker B: I always understood SS. What does SS stand for? [00:04:50] Speaker A: That's a good question. I know this, and for some reason, it isn't coming to my mind, but it does not mean anything military. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Fine. Thank you for putting me straight on that. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to say sailing ship, but I don't think that's actually a thing. [00:05:06] Speaker B: I associate it with the Nazis, mate. [00:05:08] Speaker A: That's why well, I had that thought. I was like, Are you thinking that because of the Nazis? But that is an entirely different kind of SS than this. What does it stand for when it's boats? [00:05:19] Speaker B: I'm getting to that. For the Nazis. It's Schutztaffel. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Sure. [00:05:25] Speaker B: The Nazi Protection squadron. But anyway, we'll circle back. We'll pick that up. We'll put it on the circle back. [00:05:30] Speaker A: To what SS means. So, yeah, it wrecked on Asbury Park September 8, 1934, while thousands of horrified but fascinated onlookers watched from the beach near the convention hall building. [00:05:45] Speaker B: And the circumstance do anything about it. Unable to help. [00:05:48] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Just kind of gathering and the circumstance. [00:05:52] Speaker B: Rubber neck. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Well, yes, and that definitely comes into play here. The circumstances of the tragic fire at the center of the ordeal that took 137 lives are super sus. At best, this is a story of fatal incompetence. At worst, it's one of murder and sabotage. The ship was built in 1929 at the tail end of the good ol Roaring 20s with all the luxuries expected at the time. And in fact, it'd been part of sort of a government program that gave money to these various ship lines in order to sort of restore old boats that weren't working well. Old ships, obviously. [00:06:36] Speaker B: A little bit of foreshadowing here. Dear listener, this is not the last time during tonight's jack of all graves where we will visit the year 1929. Oh, tell you, that shit was going down in that year. Yeah, tell me. Sorry, I jumped in. [00:06:51] Speaker A: A lot of shit went down famously in 1929. So this boat was made wonderfully. Appointed a ship in 1929, and its route ran back and forth between Havana, Cuba, and New York City. And while Cuba was in a time of political upheaval, it was also well known as a swinging hotspot for Americans who wanted to indulge in a little debauchery, especially during Prohibition. In fact, maritime law made it so that a ship like the SS Morrow Castle was one of the only places you could legally drink, making cruising an even more appealing pastime for involuntarily, sober Americans. [00:07:32] Speaker B: Fucking wild that you banned alcohol. [00:07:34] Speaker A: I know, right? I was thinking as I fucking as I wrote this, I was like, I haven't done a cold open just purely on Prohibition. [00:07:41] Speaker B: And I should because I've often thought that if alcohol were discovered today, it would not be legal. [00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. It would be banned immediately. [00:07:51] Speaker B: A zillion percent. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah, completely. But there's a lot of interesting stuff to that history. [00:07:58] Speaker B: They're about to ban nitrous oxide over here. They're about to ban fucking laughing gas over here. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Because so much by the kids, as I have pointed out several times, those canisters are absolutely everywhere. [00:08:11] Speaker B: God damn. You don't get the same problem over there with nitrous. [00:08:14] Speaker A: Not at all. I have literally never seen a canister in America, ever. First time I ever saw one was in London. And then I was like, Jesus Christ, these things are everywhere. Even on the train. [00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, they are ubiquitous. So, yeah, they're going to get banned, which seems yeah, that's definitely the right move. That was sorted out. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure it's definitely not going to be a problem. They're going to start having to put, like, whipped cream up on, like, a locked shelf, like pseudophed. But yeah. So it wasn't long, though, obviously. This ship being built in 1929 and actually commissioned in 1930, or like, you know, went out in 1930. The Great Depression hit, and this drastically reduced the number of people who could afford a swanky trip to Cuba aboard a luxury liner, even though it was a fairly affordable one, considering it was no Titanic. [00:09:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:11] Speaker A: As such, by 1934, the moral castle was largely making its voyages about half full of passengers. And while the ship also carried cargo and made most of its money by actually carrying mail, it wasn't bringing in enough income for the powers that be to pay it that much attention. Thus it was just shipping around with some very clear design flaws and safety issues that should have been addressed. [00:09:35] Speaker B: I see. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Like the fact that the outside of the ship was regularly repainted to make it look fresh and new, but not carefully. Which meant that while they had plenty of lifeboats, per regulations put into place post Titanic, several of those lifeboats were straight up sealed into place with the paint. [00:09:54] Speaker B: So they were completely unusable. That's not cool. [00:09:58] Speaker A: No, they're just not supposed to painted them. [00:10:01] Speaker B: Glued them to the hull with paint. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Fucking exactly. Yeah. They treated this isn't go ahead. [00:10:06] Speaker B: The last appalling safety oversight from 1929 that we're going to hear about on this week's Jack of All Grace. [00:10:14] Speaker A: It's amazing that anyone survived that period in American history. It was a rough go over here. For a hot minute, they treated the crew abysmally, which meant an incredibly high rate of turnover, which is not what you want when it comes to operating a highly specialized vessel carrying people across the ocean. Just a bunch of inexperienced dudes picking up OD jobs like, yeah sure I can probably boat. How hard could that be? Conditions were so bad, one crew member, George Alagna attempted to rally the rest of the crew to strike for their rights, holding up the ship's departure for the voyage. Eventually he was placated with a raise and better accommodations, but he had firmly placed himself on the officer's shit lists. This will come back around, so remember that. And I just want to say outright, there are a lot of different narratives of this story in which facts differ in small but significant ways and it's super hard to parse which details are fully factual and what ones have been embellished or just distorted in the game of telephone that is history. So I'm going to do my best to differentiate what is known for sure and what is a little hazier. But there's simply no way to get every detail fully right because even the papers and newsreels of the time have totally differing accounts. So you were going to say something? [00:11:47] Speaker B: No. Why would that be. [00:11:53] Speaker A: I think because so many people died for one as we'll get into evidence was destroyed because this ship was charred. Everything was just agenda then more or less impossible to go through and find out what happened in any way because it was all burned to shit. So being so destroyed there's really forensics. [00:12:17] Speaker B: Primary evidence was scarce. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Forensics being completely different at that point there just wasn't much left to say for sure what happened here. So many people died. It's just yeah a lot of ways in which this stuff can get mixed up on top of kind of the sensationalism of papers and newsreels at that time as know everything was if you there's I think I've linked to some of them in the blog. But if you even just go on YouTube and look up newsreels from like it's incredible to watch the way they tell these stories and they're so big and sound almost fictional, the way that they talk about them, just really sensational. So, yeah, I think a lot of stuff just kind of gets caught up in the mythologizing of it at the time, the loss of evidence, all of that. [00:13:07] Speaker B: And there's something to be I trust you to kind of give us the. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Best thread that needle. [00:13:15] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. [00:13:17] Speaker A: And there's stuff like that has even in the past decade, more stuff has been found and things like that. People have found footage in their attics and all kinds of stuff like that. So we keep honestly learning more and more about this, even 90 years after it happened. [00:13:36] Speaker B: Nice. [00:13:37] Speaker A: So with that caveat in place, here's what happened. At around 02:50 a.m. On September 8, 1934, a fire broke out in a locker of a writing closet on the SS Morrow Castle. And a writing closet was where the passengers would just go to sit down and write letters. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Sit down, jot some shit. Yeah. Dip a little pen and a little pot of ink. Yeah, sure. [00:14:00] Speaker A: I'm sure some of them still enjoyed doing that. According to one source, another fire broke out elsewhere almost simultaneously. Not sure about that. But whether there was one or two fires, it all became one giant one, as the whole ship, which was decorated in ornate wood throughout and coated with an oil based paint, burst into flames. [00:14:22] Speaker B: That's going to go right, isn't it? [00:14:24] Speaker A: What? [00:14:25] Speaker B: That's going to go right the fuck up. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Just so this inexperienced crew, because of the high turnover, had no clue what to do, being largely just unprepared for a situation like this. Untrained. And this resulted in deadly hesitation. It took them too long to attempt to put out the fire. It took them too long to sound the alarms. A couple of the crew people actually going so far as to chastise two women who suggested it, saying that they'd wake the other passengers. [00:14:58] Speaker B: My goodness. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Which is exactly what the alarm is. [00:15:01] Speaker B: Well, that's fucking entire point. Would you rather be awake or burned to death? [00:15:04] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. They took too long calling for help. They didn't stop or turn the ship, which was caught in gale force winds, and that only helped the fire rip through it more efficiently. And when things started to get dire, these inexperienced crewmen on a cruise line that treated them like shit felt no obligation to give up their lives to save others, and they simply got the fuck out of there. The passengers had not been given any instructions for what to do in an emergency, and the crew was absolutely no help in guiding them. Now, they were supposed to have been given instructions, just like on modern cruises, if you go on a cruise now, they will give you a safety thing beforehand, tell you what to do in case of emergency, how to use your life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's the law now. It was the law then as well. They did not do this. [00:15:55] Speaker B: I see. [00:15:56] Speaker A: So they lowered half full lifeboats, which wouldn't necessarily have been the death knell, except that since the ship wasn't at capacity, but like I said, several of the lifeboats couldn't be lowered at all because they were painted into the boat. [00:16:15] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:16:16] Speaker A: So now there weren't enough lifeboats for everyone. The ones that had been launched were almost entirely full of crew. Only 85 people made it into lifeboats in total. [00:16:30] Speaker B: Of how many passengers in total? [00:16:33] Speaker A: There was over 585 on the lifeboats. And as people do, when the smoke and fire begins to overcome them, they jumped. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Well, this worked out for some passengers, who were then pulled ashore by onlookers, if they made it that far, or pulled onto another ship that came to their aid. For others, this ended horribly. Some were chopped to bits by the ship's propellers. [00:17:01] Speaker B: Yikes. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Gnally. Some drowned predictably. But perhaps the most awful thing of all was that some were severely injured or killed by their life vests. Apparently, the life jackets on the SS Moro Castle were made of cork. And what you're supposed to do is jump in holding the life jacket and then put it on once you're in the water. Now, the passengers did what any of us untrained would do, put it on and hopped over the side and snapped their necks instantly upon landing. Yeah, pretty terrible, man. [00:17:46] Speaker B: That's made me put my hand right in my mouth. Horrible. Yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker A: Death vest, isn't it? Yeah, it's a death vest. Exactly. The lucky ones simply knocked themselves out and hopefully didn't drown. And a good chunk of those who didn't jump off simply died of smoke inhalation, or worse, burned to death. And the ship was so hot everywhere that it was literally like you couldn't stand on the floor, it was just burning straight through, like your feet. [00:18:15] Speaker B: That is no way to go. That is no fucking way to go. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah, there's really like every single possible way to die on this thing was awful. There was one story of, like, this is another one of those ones that's, like, 60 years later, 70 years later, someone followed up and went to Cuba to tell these people how their brother had died, because when they sort of got the news of it, their mother shut down and didn't even really tell them exactly what had happened. And this poor young boy, who was like twelve, I think, had like, burns all over his body and then went into the salt water and was in that salt water. This is hours before he finally died. And there was a surviving crew member who had been 17 at the time, who had been talking to him through it and trying to sort of comfort him and take his mind off it and things like that. And he realized the kids stopped talking and that's when he realized that he'd finally died. Corey, this is it's awful. [00:19:20] Speaker B: This is fucking mingin, mate. [00:19:22] Speaker A: I told you. It's a lot. So, yeah, awful. Awful ways to die happening here. And the ship eventually came to rest a smoldering, charred husk on the beach at Asbury Park. And it became a tourist destination in and of itself. The beaches down the shore tend to essentially shut down after Labor Day as the tourist season slows and it becomes unprofitable to keep running a business. But people were coming in droves to see the wreckage of the SS Morrow Castle, leading business owners to keep their doors open throughout the fall, selling souvenirs of it and all kinds of things. I want to say this is like, different times, but I don't know that this wouldn't happen now. [00:20:11] Speaker B: Certainly not. [00:20:13] Speaker A: I don't know. I think they would try to make it classy. Like, they'd be like, oh, we're memorialized. [00:20:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Tea towels. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Right. In memory of the victim. Something like that. Yeah. A portion of the proceeds go to the families, something like that. We'd class it up, but we'd do the exact same thing. Right. But again, it's the depression, and these people are like, we'll do and sell whatever to make some money at this point. And so it ended up giving the area a much needed economic boost at the times when Americans everywhere were barely scraping by. And the influx of people was so heavy, they had to change the flow of traffic on the main thoroughfares through Asbury into a sort of circular one way situation. [00:21:01] Speaker B: Because of all death tourists. [00:21:04] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. To accommodate all the death tourists, they had to change it. And it remained that way until the 2000s. So many people flocked there to see. [00:21:13] Speaker B: This death ship still in situ. [00:21:15] Speaker A: It's not no. But it changed the traffic patterns for over 70 years, which is pretty wild. Dark tourism aside. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Let's back up a little and talk about why all this is weird and potentially not just a tragic series of mishaps by the inept. So on the evening of September 1734, few hours before the con flagration, captain Robert Wilmot was found dead. His onboard physician attributed it to acute indigestion, and later reports referred to it as a heart attack. [00:21:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:55] Speaker A: What we know is that he had gone to his cabin to have dinner. [00:22:00] Speaker B: You don't die of indigestion. Sorry. I don't give a fuck if it's 1929 or yeah. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Medicine was barely a science at that point, but, like, come uh, but he had gone to his cabin, he had had dinner, he began complaining of stomach pain, and he died. That's what we know about this. But it's hard to truly say what happened because sometime in all this chaos, Wilmot's body was lost. It was to be examined in New York for poison or other such unnatural interventions, but simply could not be found, perhaps for no other reason than that had been more or less incinerated by the fire? We don't know. Let's see. For at least one report, a fire had also broken out earlier that day. Again, this is like I don't know if this part is true, but the other part of what I'm about to say is so perhaps a fire had broken out earlier in that day but had been extinguished without incident. Wilmot was reportedly shaken, though he recognized the hallmarks of something intentionally incendiary, and he told his chief officer, William Worms, I'm afraid something is going to happen tonight. I can feel it. So we know he did say that William Worms survived. And he said that much. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. He final destination it, didn't he? [00:23:26] Speaker A: Sort of, yeah. Right. [00:23:28] Speaker B: But not enough to get himself off the ship. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Right. He avoided death once, but not again. So he'd already had his suspicions up about George Alagna, the troublemaking radio operator who'd nearly shut down the ship with his strike antics. And he had the crew on high alert to make sure that he didn't try anything. But he also wasn't too keen on Alagna's mate in the radio room, George White Rogers. This was in part because he worked closely and seemed to be friends with Alagna, but according to an article in the magazine C Classics now, Rogers had done some trickery in which he had fraudulently bluffed the former chief radio officer into resigning so that he could take his job. [00:24:13] Speaker B: I see. [00:24:14] Speaker A: This is another only appears in one account, so I can't necessarily verify it. But in other accounts, it was referenced that the captain knew something that sort of got, you know, hackles up and meant that something needed to be dealt with here. So what we do know is that the captain didn't like Rogers or Alagna, in part because of Rogers'association with Alagna, and that he had given Rogers a sort of stern talking to about their association before. So the captain dies and his duties are handed down to the wildly unprepared Chief Officer Worms and all of this chaos ensues. [00:25:07] Speaker B: He certainly will shortly, but nicely done. [00:25:14] Speaker A: In the end, only twelve crew members who stayed on the ship survived, among them, both Alagna and Rogers. And given the pot stirring Alagna had been involved in, he's pretty much immediately a suspect. While Rogers is hailed as a hero for having put out the distress call and saved lives, alagna is cleared of wrongdoing and tries to go on living his life. The New York Times, in an article from March of 1935, six months after the disaster, though, said, quote, after writing two notes, one of which dealt with the Moro Castle disaster in which 124 lives were lost last September. Eigth. George I. Alagna, 28 years old, first assistant wireless operator on the vessel, unsuccessfully attempted suicide by gas early yesterday morning, according to the police in the apartment of friends at 35 670 2nd Street, Jackson Heights, Queens. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Well, I first heard about this case 26 minutes ago. [00:26:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:13] Speaker B: And it was Alagna. One fucking hundred percent, it was him. [00:26:18] Speaker A: Well, I'm afraid you're wrong, Mark. [00:26:22] Speaker B: I'm not. [00:26:24] Speaker A: You're wrong. Alagna had clearly had deep trauma from this situation, and being accused of being responsible didn't help. Thus, suicide attempt. Geez, you dick. You're just like the rest of them. [00:26:44] Speaker B: Hey. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Meanwhile, George Rogers, the hero of the SS Morrow Castle, had returned home to Bayon, New Jersey, where he first opened a radio repair shop, which turned out to be unsuccessful, and then burned down in what police suspected was arson but couldn't prove. He was then recruited to the Bayon Police Department as a radio operator, where the former seamen who had been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder got to talking. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Unlike said that if you're involved in one giant fire with loads of fatalities, that's bad luck, but if you're involved in two, then you're starting those fires. That's something I've always said. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's know the wisdom. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Two fires. Yeah. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Right. It's like seeing two magpies, in a way. Unlike Alagda, who seemed to have struggled to come to terms with the event, rogers loved to talk about the SS Morrow Castle, and eventually he talked way too much, explaining in detail to his lieutenant, Vincent Doyle, how someone could have theoretically started the fire on the ship. [00:28:03] Speaker B: I see. [00:28:03] Speaker A: I mean, theoretically, in the O. J. Simpson, if I did like, clearly he did it. And this became apparent to his lieutenant, who made the mistake of confronting him about it. Seeing the jig was up, Rogers had to act. So he brought a package to the lieutenant with a fish tank warmer that supposedly needed to be fixed, which weird New Jersey insists was a perfectly normal thing for a police station radio operator to receive at the time. And I'll have to take their word for it. So when Doyle turned the warmer on, it immediately exploded, causing him severe injuries, including the loss of several fingers, but not killing him. Rogers was arrested and charged with attempted murder, sentenced to twelve to 20 years in Trenton State Prison, but paroled in 1945 to go fight the jerries or whatever. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:29:00] Speaker A: He was obviously rejected from serving because he tried to kill someone. Among other elements you want on your team, right? Yeah, among other elements of his criminal past, which turned out to include robbery and more arson. [00:29:16] Speaker B: Hell, a regular firebug, this guy. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Pretty much, yeah. But apparently good intentions counted, and they didn't send him back to prison. Instead, he went back to Bayon and opened another unsuccessful radio shop, borrowing over $7,000 from a friend, William Hummel, to keep it afloat, which is a lot of money to lend someone now, let alone in 1952 when this happened. And in 1953 when Hummel decided to move to Florida, he approached Rogers and was like, okay, time to start paying that shit back, man, because I'm out of here. And given everything we know about Rogers. It will come as no shock to you that rather than come up with a payment plan for his generous pal, once he felt the pressure, he decided to simply do away with the problem. [00:30:05] Speaker B: Fuck's sake. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:07] Speaker B: This guy's a dickhead. [00:30:09] Speaker A: He's a giant dickhead. Yeah. Sounds awful. He went to Hummel's home and bludgeoned him to death along with his adult daughter. [00:30:18] Speaker B: Oh, mate, this story has fucking got to me, man. This has taken me places. [00:30:26] Speaker A: I know it's horrendous. I told you it was going to be a heavy hitter. It didn't take long for the cops to figure out it was this knucklehead. And he was arrested and convicted for the Hummels murder in 1954. Sentenced to life for the crime, which turned out to be only four years as he died of a brain hemorrhage in 1958. [00:30:48] Speaker B: I'm going to say good, yeah, since. [00:30:51] Speaker A: He went in the way that scares me the most. I feel good about that. So we can't be entirely sure if 137 people died because George Rogers didn't want to be caught being shifty at work, seeing as all that evidence was left jarred beyond recognition on the beach at Asbury Park. But a lifelong history of crime, a passion for making incendiary devices, and a hair trigger for retaliation make Rogers a fairly likely culprit in one of the worst maritime tragedies in American history. [00:31:22] Speaker B: Absolutely beautiful. How much of the story is on that plaque? [00:31:26] Speaker A: Not most of that. It merely says, that's the thing. That's why I never was okay. It's just like a shipwreck I mean, I like a shipwreck story or whatever, but it never seemed that interesting. It's just like the SS moro. Moro castle ran aground here onlookers Watched. People died in a fire. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Way more to that tale. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah, there is so much more to it than that, and it's horrible. [00:31:53] Speaker B: But boat corps and this podcast. [00:31:57] Speaker A: I mean, you signed up for this? [00:32:03] Speaker B: Let me quote directly from my notes, if I may. [00:32:05] Speaker A: Yes, please do. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Fucking look at these nerds. Oh, Misel sen. [00:32:10] Speaker A: I don't think anyone has ever said Misel sen in such a horny way before. [00:32:14] Speaker B: The way I whispered the word sex cannibals. [00:32:17] Speaker A: Worst comes to worst, Mark, I'm willing to guillotine you for science. [00:32:20] Speaker B: Thank you. That's really, really sweet. It's cold outside but my pancreas is talking to me I'm going to leg it. [00:32:27] Speaker A: You know how I feel about that, Mark. [00:32:29] Speaker B: I think you feel great about it. [00:32:32] Speaker A: Late last night when we were all in bed mrs. O'Leary hung a lantern in the shed but when the cow kicked it over she winked her eye and said it's going to be a hot time in the old town tonight fire. Fire. Fire. [00:32:45] Speaker B: What the fuck is that? [00:32:47] Speaker A: Not familiar. You don't know about Mrs. O'Leary in her shed? [00:32:51] Speaker B: Absolutely no fucking clue. But I liked it. That should be our new theme tune. [00:32:56] Speaker A: It felt good to perform that for. You that's a camp song here in America based on a true story. Based on true story. Do you have what's the equivalent of a camp song in the UK? Since camp is not like, a thing? [00:33:13] Speaker B: Camp is not a thing. I mean, Sunday school is a thing. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Like Scouts. Scout songs. [00:33:20] Speaker B: Yes. Well, scouts is a thing. I mean, Peter goes to see Scouts. [00:33:23] Speaker A: As, you know, do they sing songs like Little? [00:33:25] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. I don't think songs I mean, we know campfire songs, I guess, but I don't think so. They haven't permeated the culture, as Mrs. O'Leary clearly has. [00:33:41] Speaker A: Well, and you have maybe I you have a lot more songs in general, though, I think, as like adults, you go to a pub and sing things in the UK that we don't do that here. [00:33:51] Speaker B: No, mate, that is not the case. Sorry. Maybe I'm only misinformed. [00:33:56] Speaker A: I'm thinking Ireland is really the thing. I know they do this in Northern Ireland because I lived above a pub for a summer and lots of drunk men would be singing songs outside, and every time we'd go to the pub, there would be lots of group singing, things like that. [00:34:14] Speaker B: I believe that were I to start belting out a song in a pub around here, or London or Birmingham or whatever, I would be punched. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Nobody would join. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Nobody. No. Come on, lads, let's have a. [00:34:32] Speaker A: I'm thinking of all my Irish. [00:34:33] Speaker B: I would go to a different pub. [00:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah, fair enough. Belfast is great for that. Great place to go. Break in a song randomly with people. [00:34:42] Speaker B: But anyway, yeah. Tell me more about why you decided to serenade me with that song. Because I loved it. [00:34:48] Speaker A: It came to mind earlier, and I honestly can't remember why. [00:34:55] Speaker B: How many episodes this is the first time you've felt the impulse to croon at me. [00:35:02] Speaker A: It's true. That is true. I think it's just because obviously I did a whole open about fire, about a fire, and we're going to talk some about fire later on, and so I think this is why it came to mind, because do you know that there was a great Chicago fire in I guess it was the late 18 hundreds, I think. [00:35:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I may have heard of something about that, yes. I mean, I couldn't give you any. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Detail about it, but yeah, essentially, there was a fire that destroyed the entire city of Chicago, just raised the entire city. I want to say it was sometime in the 18 hundreds. Well, yeah, I didn't look this up before telling you the story. [00:35:44] Speaker B: Before the Fire of London. [00:35:46] Speaker A: That's true. There was a great fire in London much earlier than the great fire of Chicago. Yes. But yeah, so the city was, like raised the folklore around that, which I think is not a real thing, but this is the folklore of the story, was that a cow kicked over a lantern in this woman's shed and it started a fire and then burned down the entire city. So this lovely little diddy that we learn at camp is talking about this fire that raised an entire city and ruined lives and killed countless people. But as you sing it, so there's a little motions you do with it. And in each round, you're supposed to take out the word and just do the motions. While we were all in, Mrs. O'Leary hunga in the you go through like that each round and it gets faster and faster and faster. So it's harder to remember which one you're on, which one didn't you fucking. [00:36:43] Speaker B: You were all about that camp life. [00:36:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I was a big fan of camp, and I was a Girl Scout, so all of this stuff was a big part of my early life. But, yeah, maybe someday I will actually research the Chicago Fire and talk about it because it's gnarly, but that is the Mrs. O'Leary song. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Thank you very much. I hope it's not the last time that you decide to just fucking out of pocket belt out a tune at me. I'd love that. [00:37:15] Speaker A: We'll see how it strikes, see what else comes forth. [00:37:18] Speaker B: Take some mean. We're on blue sky. If there's anything you want, the Corrigan Jukebox, stick a quarter in her ear. [00:37:25] Speaker A: American camp songs yes. [00:37:28] Speaker B: You'd like to hear just by all means, come at us, and Corey will do it. We'll do any song that you that is that so? Yes. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Okay. Well, you heard it here first, I guess. Yes, indeed. So welcome to jack of all graves, everybody. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Yes, welcome. Welcome indeed. Lovely to have you lovely to have your company. Very delighted and pleased and proud to have you as listeners. Proud that you've decided to download and hit play. Proud that you've chosen to listen to Jack All Graves and proud that this is where you come every week and if you're a new listener, proud that this is where you've decided to come this week. And just every fucking week, you know, you're going to get little thing, little fucking conversations, little anxieties, little things to fucking ponder on that aren't so pleasant. But hopefully the manner in which we share these grim realities, these unfortunate fucking truths about the world that surrounds us, hopefully we're kind of letting you know that. You've just got to fucking laugh about it, haven't you? [00:38:37] Speaker A: Hey, you're here because sometimes it's so. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Fucking grim and so bleak and so unrelenting unyielding and fucking dark, impenetrable fucking gloom. The only rational response is to just have a chuckle and just go into it. Lean the fuck in. [00:38:57] Speaker A: I've missed you, Mark. This is the kind of that's a classic Marco introduction to an episode right there that just felt right in my heart space. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Tell you what, I'm enjoying it's dark at 08:00 p.m.. Fucking bring it on. [00:39:15] Speaker A: Today is very warm. You can see I've got my sleeves rolled up and everything in here and you're tank topped out today. [00:39:20] Speaker B: I got a ticket to the gun show. [00:39:23] Speaker A: Right? Hey. But it has been cooling down and it's absolutely beautiful and I am so happy we are creeping towards fall. Although that means having to pay my student loans again. But other than that it's great. [00:39:39] Speaker B: It's super fun. I didn't clear my student loans until I think my late thirty s. Oh. [00:39:45] Speaker A: I'll never clear that's not a thing. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Really? [00:39:49] Speaker A: I have paid off my student loans twice and I owe twice as much as I took out. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Oh my fucking yeah I think you've told me that before. That is disgusting. [00:39:57] Speaker A: Yeah. I will die with these. This is not a yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker B: I've done literally nothing with the education that it paid for either. Nothing. Just nothing at all. [00:40:08] Speaker A: It's super cool. I love that. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Great. [00:40:11] Speaker A: But anyways we'll get into that some other day because we've got enough dark stuff to talk about without bringing that into things. [00:40:17] Speaker B: We really do. [00:40:18] Speaker A: But I do want to before we get into some anxieties and fears and things of that nature and delve back into our hospital series. First, a big thanks to our dear friend Ryan who took care of the book club for me yesterday when I. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Was in you were at a show of course, weren't you? Yes. [00:40:40] Speaker A: So I asked Ryan to steer that. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Ship for me and city to see a marching band. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And from what I hear it went swimmingly. My favorite thing is that Brienne texted afterwards and she said the best part of book club was that apparently Colin's video wasn't working and so it was just a screen of like him in a minion costume. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's his profile picture in a few places. [00:41:06] Speaker A: Yes. And so Ryan, one of her daughters walked into the room and apparently whispered to Ryan is that a person or is that a minion? Which I think is just the most adorable thing on the planet. Giant. Thanks Ryan and to everyone else for coming out. I just took like a peek while I was at the concert at know list of people attending and it was just nice to see that they were chatting and all that kind of stuff and delightful. So I'll be back next month. I don't do a birthday quarter. So I will be back in action for the October book, which I can't think of what it is off the top of my head, but if you are interested in reading horror books with the best and smartest group of people in town. Jackofallgraves.com slash book club for the list of books that we're reading each month and the link to the discord so that you can join it. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Oh hey, speaking of Colin, last night I sat and recorded the short story that he shared with us some months back. So you can expect that to pop up on the ko fi on tuesday, I believe. [00:42:23] Speaker A: Correct. On Tuesday for all of our subscribers, I believe at all levels you will be getting your snack, which is this reading that Colin sent in. If you subscribe to our ko fi and want to hear Mark read something in particular, if you have a short story that strikes you and you would love to hear in his dulcet Welsh tones, send it to us. And as long know you have like a copy of it or something and we don't have to try to hunt it down somewhere, get us a PDF, whatever, then Marco can read that for a future snack. So that will be up on Tuesday. We will be recording one of our play alongs let's plays soon. And we have our watch along coming up. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah, we sure do. But listen, speaking of kofi, let me give a fucking huge shout out to the emo dragon who is our most recent kofi supporter. You've fucking done the right thing, buddy. And you should feel 100% fucking proud of yourself amen. That you're better quality listener than everybody else who hasn't donated, right? And just drink that in, buddy, because you fucking earned it. Thrice blessed art, though. [00:43:44] Speaker A: Indeed. Yes. Thank you so much for jumping on board. Very happy to have you. So enjoy all of the back stuff now that you haven't listened to. [00:43:54] Speaker B: I didn't mean it when I said that he's a better quality listener than the others. I didn't mean that at all. That was just a little thing that I sometimes I say things. Yeah, it's just a bit. Exactly. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's cool. I think we're good. So, yes, on the 23rd this Saturday? Yeah. Is that when we're watching along? [00:44:14] Speaker B: Yes, we are. [00:44:17] Speaker A: So we're going to do that on Saturday. So make sure that's in your calendar that 23 September. [00:44:24] Speaker B: I'm just worriedly, wondering if I'm doing anything, if I've arranged to do anything Saturday. No, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't. It's pretty cool. [00:44:30] Speaker A: It's cool again. You had another cryptic thing in your calendar for that night, but you said that it ended before we get together for a movie. So hopefully that is still the case. But we'll check after this. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Yes, I know what that is. One of Peter's friends from school, his dad is opening a restaurant in town in bistown. We're going to go and patronize it. [00:44:59] Speaker A: What kind of restaurant? [00:45:01] Speaker B: It's I want to say Japanese. [00:45:04] Speaker A: Oh, I love a Japanese restaurant. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Yeah, the family are Burmese or from Myanmar, burma, whichever it's called now. [00:45:11] Speaker A: I think it's Myanmar now. [00:45:13] Speaker B: Yes. And he's got a few restaurants dotted about the area and he's opening another one tomorrow, so looking forward to that. [00:45:19] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, let me know how it is. [00:45:21] Speaker B: I will. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Send me food. [00:45:23] Speaker B: Know I will. [00:45:24] Speaker A: Food porn is my yes, yes. I was telling you earlier that al was sending me pics from the Abergaveni food festival, which know, yeah, food picks are my love language. [00:45:37] Speaker B: I've always been to Abergavenny Food Festival a couple of times myself, and it is always, always excellent. [00:45:42] Speaker A: Oh, man, I got to go. I got to go. [00:45:44] Speaker B: There it is. Great. You were going to ask me something. [00:45:47] Speaker A: I was going to ask you something. So this was just one of those, like, okay, so this, this there's a Facebook group. This is a sort of nationwide thing. And probably in other places they do this too, but they're like buy nothing groups on Facebook. Yes. Where people give away stuff. [00:46:07] Speaker B: And 100% I don't know about asking for stuff, but I've certainly given a lot of shite away in those groups. Yes. [00:46:15] Speaker A: I love it. Huge fan of it. Yeah, I asked for a mirror once, actually. The mirror in here I asked for. I was like, I'm just going to shoot and see if someone's got one. Someone's like, yeah, I was just getting rid of one. You want it? And now I have a mirror in my office. But generally this week I gave away eight things on the buy nothing group. And I was like, oh, this feels so good, right? And I was thinking about it, and I was like, this is the way, right? There's no reason to hold on to stuff, to keep things. I agree. If they don't have any immediate utility, they've been sitting around for a long time. Get rid of them. You can always buy something later on. If it turns out five years from now I need something, I'll buy it. Or ask the group again. I saw at one point on this group, someone asked for a pizza stone. And someone else replied and were like, didn't you give me a pizza stone in this group a few months ago? And they're like, yeah, we figured out that we actually did want one. And they were like, well, I haven't used it. Do you want it back? So, hey, that can happen too. But my point here is that I realized that my family is not like this. They are hoarders to the max. They keep everything. Maybe someday we'll need it for something. There's junk stacked because they keep all the stuff. And I realized that I make a judgment around that, that I think the proper way to do things is what I'm doing, right? Like, don't hold on to things. Get rid of stuff. You can buy it again later if it's really important someday or whatever. And that I thought about it and I was like, I think that is correct. But it is because of experiences in my life, right? Like living in houses that were always messy from people holding on to things and from kind of the way someone's. [00:48:18] Speaker B: Personal space should be messy. Acorigan. [00:48:20] Speaker A: Okay, but honestly, this is what I mean, though. I have a tendency to sprawl, right? But I try not to have a ton of stuff to sprawl with. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Okay. [00:48:32] Speaker A: I see, the less stuff I have, the less chaos there is. And that's exactly it. I'm not great at picking it up. I don't know what to do with it, so I might as well get rid of it, right? And that, I think, other people holding on to things are doing something illogical. And then I really thought about it, and I was like, My way isn't correct, right? It's just that, based on my life experiences, this is the right thing for me, which is what kick started this thought. There are more important things than this. But my question to you was sort of like, are there things, whether it's a moral, a belief, an action or activity, things like that, that you think are the right way? I see that if you really think about it, is based on your own experiences, based on your own life. [00:49:32] Speaker B: I have behaviors that are so deeply ingrained now that they're never going to change. I have stuff that I do that I know I will be doing until my dying day, right? One of them being, I will always, always clean up as I go along if I'm cooking every fucking time. If you leave all the dishes until the end of your dinner, you are a fool, right? You are a fool of a tuck if you're doing that because it ruins your fucking dinner. Having to look over at the dirty crockery and whatever and do it all afterwards. So, yes, anyone who doesn't do that is a fool of a took. [00:50:17] Speaker A: What if you like doing dishes? [00:50:20] Speaker B: Who likes doing dishes? Get real. [00:50:21] Speaker A: My mom loves doing dishes. She's terrible at it, but it's her favorite. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Chore. You joking me. [00:50:26] Speaker A: No. That's why I'm always annoyed, because she's so bad at it. She always leaves food on it and stuff like that, but she loves doing dishes. [00:50:35] Speaker B: I've got a couple of things that I cling on to out of bloody mindedness as well. I'm going to text you a word, rice. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:50:41] Speaker B: I'm going to text you a word to your signal, and I would like you to pronounce this word for me, okay? [00:50:48] Speaker A: Sure. [00:50:48] Speaker B: Here we go. Just pronounce that word, if you don't mind. [00:50:54] Speaker A: You talked about this before. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Have I talked about this before? [00:50:58] Speaker A: Oxymoron. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Fuck. You wrong. Bullshit. That is pronounced oximeron. And I don't give a shit how many people say it the wrong way. That is not oxymoron. That is a fucking stupid way to pronounce that word. It's oxymoron. So there's that. Let me see. Tea. If anybody makes tea with the milk first, freak. You have to make tea with the hot water first. And there are people who will, until they blew in the face, say that it's smoke first. Fucking idiots. This is kind of like the shopping trolley truism, isn't it? That you can tell a lot about a human's tendencies based on whether or not they return their shopping trolley after they've used it because returning your shopping trolley is the smallest possible act you can do, for which there is no reward. No one's going to thank you or give you a pound and there's no consequence. No one's going to chase after you or censor you. So if you take the shopping trotter back, you're doing it simply because it is, by definition the right thing to do. [00:52:11] Speaker A: Sure. [00:52:13] Speaker B: That can give insight into how morally you live your life. [00:52:21] Speaker A: You think the T is like that? [00:52:23] Speaker B: No. [00:52:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:52:25] Speaker B: No. How you pronounce Oximeron is like that, though. It's a lonely world. It's a lonely life. [00:52:33] Speaker A: The only guy in the world who says that. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Right? [00:52:36] Speaker A: But okay, so that's less that because you know you're being ridiculous and that's. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Not no, I fucking do not cut that out. Gaslight. [00:52:51] Speaker A: I will do no such thing. Like the dishes thing, for example, right? That's like one of those kind of small things that I'm talking about, where it's like, this is clearly I mean, I do the same thing, but not everyone does that and it does not bother them one way or another. So there's a reason behind that. That's a hill you'll die on. Even though it's like really? Other people do it differently because they just do it differently. Right. People want to be like, doing something else while they're cooking or maybe they're like nosing the recipe or something like that. There's any number of reasons why someone might not do that. I hate doing dishes, so it makes it less daunting for me. [00:53:44] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That's my reasoning. [00:53:47] Speaker A: Yeah. But yeah, I was just thinking of like that's, like such a yeah. These examples of just silly little things like that. I was also thinking then, kind of expanding upon that, of what things like my philosophies about life and stuff like that do, I kind of take as good. And one of the reasons for this was that there is a thing that was saying autistic people tend to have an overblown sense of justice. Right. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're right. But when they perceive something as the right thing, they're more affronted by it not being I see. [00:54:29] Speaker B: By someone breaking that very strongly, invest. [00:54:31] Speaker A: Strongly in their code. Right. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:34] Speaker A: And I was thinking about things like I certainly am like that. I think you know me well enough that it's like if I deeply believe in something like yes, dog with a bone, you can't shake it out. I have to tell you exactly how I feel about something. [00:54:51] Speaker B: I would call you tenacious. [00:54:53] Speaker A: I am tenacious. [00:54:55] Speaker B: That is what I would say about you. [00:54:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:54:57] Speaker B: That's one of your qualities. [00:54:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I can't let it go even if I want to. But at the same time, one of my sort of attitudes towards life, even in that way, is that I think it's best to have a positive attitude in general about things right. And not to necessarily dwell on something. So the manifestation of that for me, of the having this strong sense of justice and things like that, is to I have no problem breaking from someone who causes me drama or things like that. Right? Like if someone has bad vibes all the time, or if someone does something that harms me or does something that I think is just morally unforgivable or just like that I don't want to be associated with, I have no problem just being like I'm done with that. [00:55:52] Speaker B: I have done. Yeah, I've ditched somebody who was probably fair to say, my best friend at one point. [00:56:03] Speaker A: There you go. And the other end of that is that I tend to not out loud necessarily, but I judge people who can't do that, people who fight, right. I see no purpose in fighting people physically, no argumentatively. Okay, yeah, if me and someone aren't getting along, I'm not going to fight them. I'm going to leave and be done with it. [00:56:31] Speaker B: There is no reason I completely agree. [00:56:33] Speaker A: For this kind of thing. To me and people who get kind of caught up in drama, for lack of a better word or things like that, I tend to have a little. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Judgment once again towards that, to quote the fucking wisdom of dasher zone, you. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Can leave, hit the bricks, you can just go. However, I find that my judgment of people who don't do that is based on my own experiences, right? Like, I come from a family with a lot of screaming and yelling and volatility and things like that, and I am deeply stressed out by it and tend to just sort of blank out and ignore it. I tend to avoid confrontation to an extent. Obviously I'm not completely conflict averse, especially if I find something is wrong, I'm going to tell you about it. But that generally all of this stuff comes from my own experiences and that there is value, I'm sure, to people who confront things head on and people who don't give up relationships because the vibes were off, who stick shit out. We probably need those people too. And I put a judgment on that, but it's completely based on my own baggage. [00:57:55] Speaker B: So would it be fair to say then that you have a similar attitude towards physical possessions as you do relationships? If you have no use for them fucking out they go? [00:58:08] Speaker A: Exactly that. I'm an unattached person. And that is a very easily explained thing too. Like when I was young, I was moved across the country without getting a chance to say goodbye to my friends or anything like that. Didn't know I was going and suddenly moved over. And then I've moved a bunch of times in my adult life, which each time you realize I have too much baggage, literally, I need to get rid of it. And you start moving around away from your friends, moving away from your stuff, things like that. And so I think I don't cling like a lot of people do to stuff because I don't have a solid oh, everything is a really firm connection. All of that kind of stuff. Yeah. I love a home base. Like being here, this being like, as far as I know, my forever home wonderful. I don't feel the need to fill it with shit because I don't do you don't have those attachments? [00:59:11] Speaker B: I have precious things. I have some precious things. [00:59:13] Speaker A: Oh, I do, for sure. [00:59:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:59:15] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just not like I don't feel that. I think my family tends to everything becomes like thing you must keep. It may have utility at some point or things. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I can relate. I know a couple of hoarders. [00:59:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Where I'm more of a like there's stuff that usually it's something that is a photo or maybe like I have a stuffed animal from when I was a kid. That means a lot that I still have things like that, but not a lot of it. [00:59:48] Speaker B: It's been very insightful. [00:59:50] Speaker A: I thought it was just like an interesting I don't know, interesting thing to think about. [00:59:55] Speaker B: No, I agree. What is the alchemy? What is the formula for something reaching that status of indispensable? What needs to surround an object right. In order for it to become something that you're going to keep forever? Yeah, you're right. It's an interesting thought. [01:00:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe that's something we come back to sometime too. What makes something worth holding on to? [01:00:26] Speaker B: I quite like the idea of artifacts. Are there artifacts in existence that memorabilia then, or ephemera from particularly fucking horrific times or events? Yeah, we'll think on we'll think on it. [01:00:43] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll come back to that. Thank you for indulging that thought process. Even though I don't feel like you acknowledged your own personal experience here, I think you still think you're right about everything. [01:00:58] Speaker B: Well, listen, I can't always bang on about self awareness if I can't admit that I'm wrong about a whole bunch of stuff, right? I have no trouble fessing up when I've fucked up. But those things that I spoke of earlier, oxymoron isn't a bit I fucking actually believe that it's pronounced that way and get fucked. I'm actually aggressive about it. I hate that everybody else has got this wrong. It winds me up so much. [01:01:32] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Anyways, Mark, what did you watch this week? [01:01:38] Speaker B: Oh, listen, movies. Yeah, let's talk about movies. Quite a few. You know, I think I've managed to get through quite a few movies this hey, that's nice. Yeah. Let's have a little look, shall we? Oh, I'm so impressionable, aren't I? Easily led. [01:01:54] Speaker A: This comes up again. Normally we're always making fun of me. [01:01:58] Speaker B: For an absolute mark, I am such a fucking patsy. All you've got to do is say something to me. You could Darren Brown me easily. Just slip words into a sentence or show me a picture of something. Case in point being our group Chat shared a really cool Texas Chainsaw Massacre T shirt this week. And immediately, like a fucking my Pavlovian response was immediately to go downstairs and just fucking bang the movie on and watch Texas again. Not going to talk about it at length. I'm not going to talk about it at all, in fact, because everyone knows we have already a five star sensory assault. [01:02:39] Speaker A: Good word for it. [01:02:40] Speaker B: It is a five star act of fucking just sensory violation. That's what it is. It is a relentless, smelly, brutal, confusing, brilliant fucking joyride of a film. And I adore it. So that's all I got to say about that. So, Texas. Let me see. We sat down together and watched Pumpkin Head Two, didn't we? [01:03:06] Speaker A: We did. Since you decided that we were going to Animar in this series, we're at 204. [01:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Two of four. Because based on the sequel based on Pumpkin Head Two, Electric Boogaloo. [01:03:21] Speaker A: It's even better than that, though. It's called blood wings. [01:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And why is it called Blood Wings? The fuck? [01:03:29] Speaker A: I don't know. [01:03:30] Speaker B: It's never referenced in the film itself. Is it ever? [01:03:33] Speaker A: I don't think no, I don't think it is. [01:03:35] Speaker B: But based on Pumpkinhead Two and based on that anecdote from Lance Henriksen, which you shared with me about Pumpkinhead Three, this just feels like a franchise with no value. It brings nothing. Pumpkin Head Two brings nothing to the table. It adds nothing to the conversation. [01:03:52] Speaker A: Actively undoes some of the first movies. [01:03:55] Speaker B: It does? Yeah, it does. [01:03:57] Speaker A: It just fuck the lore. [01:03:59] Speaker B: Fucking hell. I mean, the episode with you and I and Anna the other week where she said, look, just films with a fucking something to them, a reason to exist, something that they do well, something that they excel at, whatever that may be. Pumpkin Head is the antithesis of that. [01:04:17] Speaker A: Pumpkin Head. [01:04:18] Speaker B: Pumpkin head two. I'm sorry. I digress. Pumpkin Head Two is the antithesis of that. It has no reason for being it's just dog shit. [01:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:27] Speaker B: Somehow the puppet looks worse. [01:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. The anecdote that I shared with Mark was from someone's letter box to, I guess, had interviewed Lance Henriksen. Yeah. But I felt like it was more I thought it was something more than that because they pointed to, like, an interview or whatever. I don't know. Something of this nature. They met at a con, something of that nature. But basically what this person was saying is that Lance Henriksen is happy to talk about the original Pumpkin Head just that thinks it's a great movie. The experience is great. Stan Winston's first movie, he was really into the experience of that and the product that came out of that. He's not in the second one, and then he's in Three and Four, which he refers to as Alimony Movies does not like to talk about and said that being asked about it is like being. Like someone saying to you the night after you were drunk, do you remember what you did last night? [01:05:30] Speaker B: I've had that on more than one occasion. It's fucking horrible. Yeah, sometimes it's awesome. [01:05:38] Speaker A: Well, right. Yeah. Maybe you did something cool. I don't know. In this case, that does not seem to be the case. And so I don't know, there's a part of me that's very curious as to how much worse this could possibly get. But yeah, pumpkinhead Two was not we'll. [01:05:55] Speaker B: Have to see them. We'll have to fucking just plow through them. [01:05:58] Speaker A: They're 90 minutes exactly. Might as well get them done. [01:06:03] Speaker B: Oh, let me see. Was talked to me this week or last week. [01:06:08] Speaker A: I don't think you've talked about that yet. [01:06:10] Speaker B: Right. Fucking great movie. I'm delighted to have seen it borrows heavily from Jordan Peele. But that's fine. [01:06:22] Speaker A: In a good way. [01:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, in a good way, yes. Because in and of itself, it's a lovely fucking intimate, small scale, creepy little bastard of a film. It's jordan Peele via hereditary. I think you've got a fucked up family dynamic there which gets picked apart. [01:06:44] Speaker A: You've got a lot that shouldn't be at a party. [01:06:47] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. This just a whole fucking bunch of fun. Some real good scares, some real good performances. Just and it's Australian. I had no idea it was Australian. Australian things are great. Yeah. [01:07:02] Speaker A: Been saying Australians make good horror movies. [01:07:05] Speaker B: Yes, they do. Oscor, mate. [01:07:07] Speaker A: Oscor. It's the know, we've talked about Ozcore before, but yeah, the bleakness of, you know, always comes through. And this is for something that's like a teen horror movie. The bleakness is pervasive. [01:07:27] Speaker B: I'm not going to spoil anything about Talk to Me because I went into it almost entirely cold. And I would recommend everybody else does the same thing. I recommend everybody does that for every film, to be honest. But the ending right. I kind of kicked myself so I didn't fucking see it coming. As soon as you find out the gimmick. Because the ending it's a really nice, really neat, beautiful, kind of Hitchcockian Sting in the tail kind of ending that you could kind of guess coming if you really put your mind to it. [01:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think one of the things about that movie is that it is one of those ones that I wasn't necessarily trying to guess. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Which no, of course. Yeah. [01:08:06] Speaker A: Nice. A lot of times that's the thing that bugs me in movies. Usually being able to see a twist coming or whatever. [01:08:11] Speaker B: Very good. [01:08:12] Speaker A: And it's not the kind of movie that makes you sit there wondering that the investment is not in like you're in the movie. You're not trying to solve it. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Second guess it. Yeah, sure. [01:08:25] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. Talk to Me is a really good time. [01:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Good as fuck. Pete and I watched Final Destination Two. [01:08:33] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:08:34] Speaker B: Yes, indeed. And he's asking me, how it's going, dad? Dad. When I'm on jive, dad, I am. [01:08:40] Speaker A: So excited that he really wants to do this because for the past couple of years have wanted him to come on and he was a little too shy, too. But now he's a YouTuber, he knows what he's doing. [01:08:50] Speaker B: Well, not so much, really, that died of death. [01:08:52] Speaker A: Well, once a YouTuber. [01:08:55] Speaker B: But yes, it occurred to me while watching Final Destination, right, that the central gimmick of Final Destination is very similar thematically to what I love so much about a nightmare in Elm Street. Right. I've said plenty of times that one of the reasons I love Elm Street so much is because I love the gimmick of inevitability. You're going to fall asleep at some point and chase it, run away from it all you want, you will eventually fall asleep. You're going to find yourself in a fucking room with Freddy eventually. And I think Final Destination has that same sense of encroaching inevitability death is always going to fucking win. You can't beat death. You are going to die. And the ingenious ways, watching people try and second guess death, try and play chess with fucking A concept. I think it's great. [01:09:51] Speaker A: The kills just get more and more insane as they really do. [01:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it was the sequel where they bet heavily on the kills. Yes, they are surprising. A few of them just come right out of nowhere. It's yet brilliant. Good shit. Good shit. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Does the second one have the gymnastics kill? [01:10:11] Speaker B: No, the second one has the ladder through the face. [01:10:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:16] Speaker B: Obviously the fucking tree through the car. [01:10:18] Speaker A: The log, obviously the most iconic of. [01:10:21] Speaker B: All guy blows up in a fire. It also does a thing, which I really love, when a franchise does it and kills off the survivor from the last film. [01:10:32] Speaker A: Right? Yes. [01:10:34] Speaker B: Love that. Which is something else Elm Street did a few times. [01:10:38] Speaker A: Definitely. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:39] Speaker A: I mean, I said that last week. That's one of the great things about it is that even if someone survives the movie no, they don't. They absolutely don't. And then they start then the timeline and whatnot shifts and all that. You get all this good stuff that way. But yeah, again, aside from the fourth one, I'm just very excited that you're on this journey. [01:11:01] Speaker B: I have past two. I don't think I've got any memory of them. [01:11:05] Speaker A: I really love three and five. They're both great. So I'm stoked for you to get there. Like I said last week, I also just want to report back on the awkwardness of the ten minute titty scene in three. [01:11:23] Speaker B: Is it ten minutes of titty? [01:11:24] Speaker A: It's so long. [01:11:28] Speaker B: Brief titty. Was there FD two? Yeah. Somebody flashes a car. [01:11:34] Speaker A: Okay, sure. Yeah, that makes sense. I was going to say because I don't remember any nudity and stuff like that from any of them. Except that in three it lasts so long that it's like comical how long you've been looking at naked women. It's like Jesus Christ. They really wanted to get their money's worth out of all those fake. [01:11:55] Speaker B: Ah, fuck. [01:11:56] Speaker A: It great. [01:11:59] Speaker B: Kitty never hurt anyone, did it? [01:12:01] Speaker A: I mean, not to my knowledge. [01:12:03] Speaker B: Maybe you did. Have you been hurt by a titty? [01:12:05] Speaker A: We want to hear from you, my own on plenty of yeah, good point. Anything else? [01:12:13] Speaker B: Let me see. I got dragged to a haunting in Venice yesterday. [01:12:17] Speaker A: Dragged? You gave it three stars. [01:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah, because it was functional. Right. It is a functionally sound film. I have personal issues with Kenneth Branner. I don't fucking like him. Right. [01:12:31] Speaker A: That honestly doesn't surprise me. He seems like the kind of guy you wouldn't like. [01:12:33] Speaker B: I don't like Kenneth Branner and I can't pin it down. I don't know why I don't like him. And seeing him at the movies on a big screen, he's got these fucking warts on his chin. I just don't like him. However, Haunting in Venice is a functionally sound film. So take your three stars and be gone. [01:13:00] Speaker A: I do want to see that one. I would have seen it the other day, but it's just been too busy a week. I don't like the stealer, mate. [01:13:05] Speaker B: It's a stealer. [01:13:06] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I like going to the cinema. [01:13:11] Speaker B: You've got a cool yeah, it's going. [01:13:13] Speaker A: To cost me $6. [01:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [01:13:15] Speaker A: They just got new seats at theater and I haven't sat in them yet. It's either that or Taylor Swift eras tour video. Yeah, but I mean, I don't like those poirot movies that Kenneth Braun has done. I like Kenneth Brana. I think he seems like a giant dork and that kind of appeals to me. He loves making movies and just loves acting and all that kind of stuff. And he seems like a giant nerd to me. Thought like Belfast was absolute trash. I don't like the Poirot movies, but I just kind of like him. And the movie looked like just serviceable in a way that I'm like. [01:13:59] Speaker B: That's the word. [01:14:00] Speaker A: That's the like that cast. So feel good about it. [01:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's always nice to see Michelle Yeoh. Always. [01:14:06] Speaker A: Yeah, always. Yeah. Come on. Someone pointed out they were like it's like they worked overtime to get the most unproblematic cast possible after the last. [01:14:18] Speaker B: Yes. Pretty much thoroughly vetted everyone. [01:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to say it might have been Dan who said that, but yeah, we watched Cobweb together. Well, we took a break from pumpkin heads to we did Cobweb. I literally had never heard of this movie before. [01:14:37] Speaker B: I don't know how it found itself on my radar either. I think I saw it listed in a kind of a did it win an award? Did it get a premiere at some fucking horror festival? I don't know. But it was good. [01:14:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I got higher than I meant to while watching it, which made it, like, quite an experience to watch smoking on that vape. Yeah. Had a little vape, which normally doesn't usually hit me, but for some reason it got me and there's a point in it. I sent you audio of me doing. [01:15:13] Speaker B: It because you asked. [01:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah. There was these kids in their trick or treat masks or whatever in a car. And one was in like a bunny mask that leaned over all of a sudden that you couldn't see. And I literally went, Jared the shit out of me. [01:15:29] Speaker B: It's a spooky kid movie. [01:15:31] Speaker A: Spooky kid movie. The kid from The Last Voyage of the Demeter, if you've seen that. [01:15:35] Speaker B: And he was good. He was excellent. He's really good. A kid starts hearing things in the walls of his bedroom and just horrific things. Ensue. [01:15:46] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Yeah. And it's got some good scares in it. Yeah. You got Homelander in there. I don't love what Lizzie Kaplan is doing with her proper 1930s voice or whatever that she does. [01:16:03] Speaker B: Yeah, she's an aldi, Emily Blunt, isn't she? [01:16:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that about sums it up. She's one of those people who like because I like mean girls, I want to like her. But I don't think I ever think she's that good of an anyways, regardless, it's like I don't know, it's just kind of a little bit of like mayhem in a movie. I think it's doing too much. It's got like maybe a few too many storylines within it. But it's fun and scary. And that works for me. [01:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's fun. It's scary. There's a good kid performance in it. [01:16:38] Speaker A: And if you're high, it's even scarier. [01:16:40] Speaker B: There you go. Have a big old bong before you watch it. Rip a fucking huge or maybe smoke a little bit of crack. [01:16:50] Speaker A: Okay. Well, jack of all, just a little bit endorse. [01:16:54] Speaker B: Oh, do we not crack? [01:16:55] Speaker A: No, I think we can categorically say okey doke. That we don't. [01:17:00] Speaker B: Hugs not. [01:17:02] Speaker A: The only thing other than that that I watched this week was I watched some shows and things like that. But the only thing I watched movie wise is I attempted to watch Heavy Metal, the like, cartoon from 19 81 80. [01:17:19] Speaker B: British Sci-Fi. Is it British animation? I'm pretty sure is it British? [01:17:24] Speaker A: I don't think it's British. [01:17:26] Speaker B: Maybe I'm conflating it with this is. [01:17:28] Speaker A: A problem that I have now because I talk to you and all of our friends so much that I tune out accents at this point sometimes, so. [01:17:34] Speaker B: I don't but yeah, it's actually well Canadian there. [01:17:39] Speaker A: You so TCM had it on. [01:17:44] Speaker B: Oh, it's not animation either. [01:17:46] Speaker A: No, it is animation, definitely. [01:17:48] Speaker B: Oh, it is. Right. Okay. Yeah, my bad. [01:17:51] Speaker A: Basically a movie of Sci-Fi vignettes, animated. And the sort of gimmick of it is that all the biggest rock bands of the have songs on this soundtrack that are playing throughout it. And I thought that was going to be used differently. I was expecting these big epic numbers and all that stuff, which really it's just kind of like there's just always a rock song in the background. [01:18:21] Speaker B: Nice. Good. [01:18:22] Speaker A: Like, quietly. And so there's no emphasis on it. Doesn't really add anything static. [01:18:28] Speaker B: It's just background. [01:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just in the background, there is always rock songs playing with, like, full lyrics and stuff like that. Which is a weird thing when there's dialogue in a movie to just have full rock songs in the background. And then I was like, I can see how in an age before porn, like before Internet porn for men, this would have been an appealing film because it's just men plaid treating naked women badly. The whole thing. It's just basically like every time a woman walks on screen, she just takes off everything and has sex with whatever man is on for no reason. It's just like, oh, they're in this room. I guess I will have sex with them right now. [01:19:12] Speaker B: What drove you to hit Play on that one? [01:19:15] Speaker A: It was on TCM, and I watch a lot of they it's very curated. Anything that's on TCM. So these, like, classics usually. And I can see why classic is kind of the wrong word, but I can why it was occult classic, I guess. Why boys of a certain age, specifically, would have, in 1981, been like, oh, my God, they could put this VHS tape up with all the other tapes and their mom wouldn't know it was just a porno. You could get away, basically, with watching a porn as a child. [01:20:00] Speaker B: Does it have any value as a film? Does it have any value as a movie? [01:20:02] Speaker A: Or is it just boring as fuck? And it's so misogynist. It was a rough watch. I was just like, oh, no, there's nothing in this as a female viewer at all for you. And if the music were better, I might be able to forgive it. But the fact that it's just, like, just in the background was not doing it for me. I'm not even sure if I rated it. I think I might have just left. I was like, I don't even know how to judge this. [01:20:36] Speaker B: Let me see. Did I watch anything else? Every now and again, right? Every so often. Well, actually, it doesn't happen often, but sometimes I will be seized by the desire to watch a film, a real. [01:20:51] Speaker A: Film, a fucking I get that very occasionally, too. [01:20:57] Speaker B: And it seized me today. So I watched Tar. I watched Kate Blanchett in Tar and I enjoyed the fuck out of it. [01:21:04] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:21:05] Speaker B: It is a incredibly performed, tightly written, super fucking this is a film of detail. There is so much beautiful, rewarding detail in this film. Is it earnest? Yes. Does it have a huge sense of its own importance? Yes. But it's justified fine if you've put a piece of work like this together, fuck it, feel it, lean into it. It's just such a fucking literate and detailed film. And everyone is fucking giving up their best and I super enjoyed it. [01:21:43] Speaker A: Amazing. [01:21:44] Speaker B: Yes. [01:21:45] Speaker A: Very glad to hear that. [01:21:46] Speaker B: Tell you something else as well. This is from a couple of weeks ago, but you remember me saying that I wanted to get into D and D? [01:21:54] Speaker A: Remember that? Yes. In fact, we had multiple people offer, but obviously, since you were on a break yes. We have not done that. But many people want to play with you. [01:22:04] Speaker B: Consider that itch scratched. Right. There's a game on. PS five. Baldo's. Gate three. Right. Which is I didn't really know at the time because I like to go into things cold, but it's had incredible review scores across the board. It's super critical. [01:22:21] Speaker A: $70 on something to go in cold? [01:22:25] Speaker B: Well, yeah, but I decision if everybody is saying something's great, it's probably great. [01:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Like that thing video games are such, like, a personal thing. I saw everybody was talking about Balder's Gate as well, and then I watched a couple of the trailer videos on the PS Five and I was like, oh, fuck. No. [01:22:47] Speaker B: Right. Well, I didn't do that bit. That's the bit I didn't. [01:22:50] Speaker A: That's where you yeah, we diverged. [01:22:53] Speaker B: It's DND right. It's tall intents and purposes. DND on the PS five. [01:22:57] Speaker A: I don't think people who play DND would say that's the same thing, because you're still playing it by yourself. [01:23:03] Speaker B: But it goes off a DND rulebook. It's literally built on a DND rulebook. And I didn't have a fucking clue what I was doing, man. I had no clue. [01:23:11] Speaker A: It was yeah, that's why you have to play it with people. [01:23:13] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. [01:23:17] Speaker A: Going into an entire game thing that you have no frame of reference for. [01:23:22] Speaker B: Honestly, I stuck at it. I spent a few hours on it, but in much the same way as Eldon Ring, when I sank, like, 1015 hours into it and was still only on the tiniest fucking corner of the map and dying every five fucking seconds. I hit a wall with this game, man. It's impenetrable to me. It was worth the money for the satisfaction I felt in deleting it. [01:23:50] Speaker A: Oh, well, there you go. [01:23:51] Speaker B: Yes. [01:23:51] Speaker A: See, this is again, that thing, though, that I wish that the sucky thing, when you don't have hard copies of stuff, was like, I wish I could give it to someone else. Someone else wants to play that game. If you could just pass your license over to someone else and give it to them. I feel like that's what's missing from those games. [01:24:10] Speaker B: I agree. [01:24:10] Speaker A: They're just wasted. [01:24:12] Speaker B: However, Spiderman Two is out in a few weeks, and that's a little bit more my lane. [01:24:17] Speaker A: Nice. Yes. I remember you loved the first one a lot. [01:24:20] Speaker B: Absolutely adored it. [01:24:21] Speaker A: I attempted to play it. I did not. Okay, fair enough. But it's just because it's not the kind of game I play, that's all. Shall we talk about let's pick up this conversation again. [01:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah, by all means. This is part three of our part three of our hospital ongoing discussion and delving into hospitals aren't always a place where you get better, right? [01:24:47] Speaker A: And today, well, listen, we decided we were going to talk a little bit about things that can happen in hospitals, just that are emergencies to the people who work there, too. [01:25:02] Speaker B: Not listen, before we do that, before we do that, super quick yeah, I've just remembered I was on the radio this week, super briefly, right? [01:25:08] Speaker A: You were? Yes, that's right. [01:25:12] Speaker B: I asked the question on Blue Sky a couple of weeks back. All of the pollution in the world, right? Chemical, nuclear, industrial, whatever, all of the fucking plastic in the rivers and oceans, la la. Why can't we just fucking bang that shit on a rocket, get Elon or fucking Jeff on it and just send all that shit into space? Why can't we? So there was a science phone in, just coincidentally as I was listening to Jeremy Vine on radio too. So I thought, right, I'll ask this fucking science geezer. And I wasn't at all happy with his response at all, right? I think he was full of shit and I think we can in fact, send it all to space. He was all like, no, he was right? [01:25:59] Speaker A: This was a weird question in the first, like, when we started asking it, I was like, why would you think that's a good idea? [01:26:07] Speaker B: Now you as well? [01:26:09] Speaker A: Yes, because it's a terrible idea. [01:26:11] Speaker B: How? Tell me how. [01:26:13] Speaker A: Right, exactly the reasons that he gave, right? We already know there's way too much space junk out there that is eventually threatening to cover up our entire space. [01:26:23] Speaker B: I read earlier on, right? You know the Voyager probe, right? [01:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:26] Speaker B: It's been traveling for like, 25 years or so, if not more, and it hasn't hit a single fucking thing, right? [01:26:33] Speaker A: So we send this shit in the sky has not hit something. [01:26:39] Speaker B: It's been in motion for 25 years and it's hit nothing if not more. If we send this shit far enough, out of sight, out of mind, mate, it's gone. Send it into space. Just send it way into space. [01:26:53] Speaker A: Don't just put it also thinks that there's intelligent life out there. That's also, like, an insane thing to do. Make it some other things problem, corey, it's short sighted to put our stuff up into the sky and not think about, like, maybe that might come back to bite us. [01:27:11] Speaker B: No, listen, at some point not in the sky, mate. No, in deep fucking space. It's huge, right? And this guy was giving it all like, no, we need to reduce our waste production and we need to be better on this planet before well, and imagine that's fucking not happening, is it? That ain't right. [01:27:30] Speaker A: But imagine if then our solution was simply shoot everything into space. Then it becomes the scapegoat for which, instead of not just not changing things, but we start making more because it's not our problem anymore. [01:27:47] Speaker B: Right? And if they'd given me the chance to reply on Jeremy Vine, which they didn't, they were like, all right, cheers. My bike. My response would have been, why not both? We do this, like, once every 20 years or more, and in the meantime, scale the fuck down, change our behaviors, reshape our society. But the fact is, that second bit ain't fucking happening. So we've got to think outside the box. We've got to think off the globe. [01:28:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Just think also of the environmental impact of whatever, rockets and things like that. We need to get our that's why. [01:28:19] Speaker B: We only do it once every 20 years or so, right? [01:28:23] Speaker A: Still. And in that time, we're still creating all of the same emissions and things like that. Because our problem isn't really yeah. Our problem isn't just landfills. It's not the giant T shirt thing in the middle of Chile or like, it's the emissions to make those things. So now, not only are we using all the same emissions in order to create all the same junk, but more because we know we're going to get rid of that junk, which also takes emissions and billions of dollars to shoot into space. [01:28:58] Speaker B: Look, underneath. This is a need for different thinking, right? Because we ain't going to change our behaviors. We ain't fucking doing it on a global scale. Nothing is changing. Every target is being missed, the kind of the piecemeal fucking but it's not. [01:29:15] Speaker A: True that nothing is changing. [01:29:16] Speaker B: Okay, I'll roll back on that, right? But globally, from a corporation point of view, while capitalism is still in place and profit and fucking money are the sole metrics by which success is judged of an enterprise, the behaviors won't change. The fucking filth will continue accumulating. [01:29:36] Speaker A: I get the idea of needing different thinking, but the problem with that is that it's the same problems with just adding another one on. It isn't because as long as you. [01:29:45] Speaker B: Shoot something into space, it's effectively gone. [01:29:47] Speaker A: But the emissions aren't, because the problem is the making the things. It's not just the trash, it's the creating those things. You could shoot every bit of garbage that is on this planet into space, but if we keep fucking making this stuff, it doesn't matter. We will still be in the exact same position. The junk on the ground and the junk in the air are two different. [01:30:10] Speaker B: Problems, but counterpoint, we're going to carry on doing it anyway. [01:30:16] Speaker A: So just add more. Why not? It's fun to watch trash go into space. [01:30:21] Speaker B: You're shooting it into space, it's gone anyway. I still think bullshit. I still think we can do it, and I actually think that's what we'll end up doing. [01:30:32] Speaker A: Do you agree with Mark? Please tell us why this plan works. [01:30:37] Speaker B: That's Corey's way of saying, wrap it up, Lewis, I'll fucking shoot you into space. [01:30:48] Speaker A: I'm getting principled again. So, friends, hospitals. [01:30:55] Speaker B: Sorry, hospitals. Listen, fucking bad shit. [01:30:57] Speaker A: Listen, bad shit. [01:30:58] Speaker B: What occurs to me, right, is by nature, if you are in a hospital, you are vulnerable, right? Yes. You wouldn't be there otherwise. If you require treatment at hospital, which needs you to stay there for any length of time, you are by fucking definition vulnerable. Which means external calamities, which happen in hospitals a lot yes. Are going to be all the more devastating because a hospital is full of sick people. For fuck's sake. Babies. [01:31:37] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. [01:31:38] Speaker B: Neither of which are any good in a fight. [01:31:41] Speaker A: No, not particularly. No, not so much. Not helpful. I thought it would be to sort of give us an idea of the things that happen in hospitals. I thought I'd take us through the idea of codes. Right, nice. Yeah. I think anyone who's ever watched on your files well, let me explain. [01:32:03] Speaker B: Yeah, please. [01:32:03] Speaker A: If you've watched a medical drama, right, I'm sure you have watched medical dramas. Everyone on the planet has watched them. [01:32:08] Speaker B: At some point or another. Yeah. [01:32:10] Speaker A: You know that hospitals have certain codes that have various meanings. In fact, often you'll see doctors on these shows simply use the shorthand patient is coding. Right. Do you know what that would mean? [01:32:23] Speaker B: I've heard it plenty of times. Don't know what it I mean, they are going into arrest or seizure or something like that, isn't it? [01:32:28] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly that see, you watch enough of these things and you just know what that means when someone's on the verge of kicking a bucket and it's all hands on deck to try to save their life. They call that coding. They're referring to what is generally known as a code blue, an indicator that a patient has gone into cardiac arrest. As it turns out, there are a lot of other emergency codes in hospitals, and the majority of them have nothing to do with their patient's health and everything to do with threats to the hospital itself. [01:32:58] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:32:59] Speaker A: Because like you just said, there's a lot of shit that can go down in hospitals. [01:33:03] Speaker B: Code BRone. [01:33:05] Speaker A: It's not one of the codes, although I'm sure colloquially it probably is. [01:33:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:13] Speaker A: Now, codes aren't completely standardized, which is a little crazy, and they also vary between countries. So for time's sake, I'm just going to talk a bit about the ones we use here in the United States. And it's worth noting that until the 2000s, often every hospital had its own set of codes, which could be super confusing for a number of reasons, not the least of which being if you're a hospital on one side of town trying to communicate with one on the other side, it's kind of important. You're talking about the same thing. [01:33:43] Speaker B: Yes. [01:33:43] Speaker A: And a lack of consistency can literally be deadly. One such case is the reason why now about half the states in the United States have statewide codes and that they're often the same, because, like I said, this has only been since 2000 that they've started standardizing this. And so this is as of 2020, I believe 25 states had at that point standardized their codes, and they're often similar to other states. So according to campussafety.com, in 2000, the Hospital Association of Southern California released a handbook called Healthcare Emergency Codes, a guide for Code Standardization, strongly urging a uniform code system after three people were killed in a shooting incident. After the wrong emergency code was called. Code Gray, which typically means a combative person was announced drawing staff members toward the shooter. At the time of this incident in California hospitals, 47 different codes were used for infant abduction and 61 were used for a combative person. So basically, all these people went running towards a shooter instead of away from them because the wrong code was called yo. Yeah. So this caused the standardization, and I'm going to go through the main ones just to give you an idea of what some of the emergencies are that hospitals face. So like I said, Code Blue is pretty much universally recognized as cardiac arrest or other medical emergency needing immediate attention. Code Gray in most states refers to a combative person. Silver is someone with a weapon or a hostage situation. Pink is an infant or child abduction. Orange is a hazmat issue. Black is generally a bomb threat. Red is a fire. And some of these are slightly different in various states that add things like severe weather disasters or mass casualties to their list of codes. And recently, many hospitals in the United States experienced what's known as a Code Dark, which is the code for cyber attacks. [01:35:57] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:35:58] Speaker A: Which is a growing issue and much scarier than we really think about because a lot of the machines that are being used in hospitals can become subject to these cyber attacks. And certainly you don't want that to happen. [01:36:13] Speaker B: Pretty sure in saying that there was a attack on the NHS here in the last few years, I'm pretty sure that happened. [01:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to say that you're correct about that. Like I said, it's becoming more and more of a problem. So just on the pure basis of how many codes there are, we can see that there's a lot of threats that can happen in hospitals besides the stuff we expect to be there for. And for whatever reason, the maskist in me wants to know what these things are because, you know, I hate the idea of not being in control. And that's largely what we're talking about here. Like you said, you're super vulnerable here. But I don't know, maybe by talking these out, we can make little escape plans in our heads to feel better. That's a great idea. So why don't you jump off from here, Marco? Tell us about some shit. [01:37:04] Speaker B: If we talk about, you know, I know you've looked at this too, and I'm talking in the states, obviously, because guns. Shooting attacks in healthcare settings in hospitals are actually not as rare as they ought to be. Hospital setting is frequently targeted. The major difference is the profile of the attacker. Whereas you can wander into a shopping mall, you can wander into a school and start unloading. Hospital shooting attackers tend to be more decisive. It's a decision that they will have made, whether it's a beef with somebody with a patient or with a doctor. Some of the most common reasons for hospital shootings are issues with a healthcare professional. So somebody who is unhappy with the care that they've received, euthanizing a patient. [01:38:10] Speaker A: Is often yeah, that's a wild one. [01:38:13] Speaker B: It just feels like there's a better way of doing that. [01:38:15] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:38:20] Speaker B: But, America, if you want to know how common we're talking, I know we both ended up reading the same report, but between the year 2000 and 2011 have a guess, listener. Have a little guess. How many do you think how many hospital based shootings do you think there were in the States in the decade between 2000, 2011? 154 is the answer. 150. So many shootings a load a fuck done, in fact, leading to 235 dead or otherwise injured people. This report was commissioned, actually, after a shooting at the John Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, where a guy came in, shot a doctor, shot his mother, shot himself, which led to this study. Pretty fucked. [01:39:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Which also, on the note of that one that you're bringing up, I thought that one of the interesting things from this study was that the most common victim in these, in 45% of the cases, the perpetrator dies. Not necessarily that they're the only one who die, but in 45% of these hospital shootings, the perpetrator also is killed. [01:39:33] Speaker B: Yes. An example of that, a cracking example of that, in fact, took place on Valentine's Day, of all days, in 2020. Sweet. In a medical center known as Rancho Mirage in California. A 63 year old guy called Walter Carter who'd previously, a few years back, before it, had spinal surgery by a doctor, Dr. Duffner from the hospital, who was a 30 year career as an orthopedic surgeon. Well liked in Walter Carter's point of view. He'd botched his back surgery. This guy was in constant pain, reportedly had a dependence on painkillers, as you'd imagine, and he walked into Rancho Mirage Medical Center, shot the doctor, shot himself. Nice and straightforward. That's what he mean. Before doing that, he wrote, like, a harsh review on Yelp for his surgeon. [01:40:36] Speaker A: Wow. Insult to injury. [01:40:38] Speaker B: I know. But that didn't do it for him. That didn't provide him the closure he needed. [01:40:43] Speaker A: Right. [01:40:44] Speaker B: So he felt he had to kill him. [01:40:48] Speaker A: Jeez. Wheeze, that is wild. Obviously we've talked before. It's just one of those weird American realities where it's like, in any kind of situation, there's am I going to get shot here? [01:41:04] Speaker B: Which I will never fucking get over. I will never fucking get over that reality. That's incredible, right? [01:41:11] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a weird one. And one of the problems, the country. [01:41:17] Speaker B: That has pretty much all legalized weed, right? [01:41:22] Speaker A: A country that we should be so chill. [01:41:24] Speaker B: You should. But I mean, by this, you know, just like we spoke about earlier on a country that banned alcohol. [01:41:37] Speaker A: Will ban things like alcohol or kinder Surprise Eggs. Kinder surprise eggs. Or being able to choose the gender and name that you go by and things like that. But this is fine. This is totally okay. [01:41:53] Speaker B: We've done episodes before about how wrapped up and fucking complicated that whole gun lobby issue is. It's incredible that it's got to that stage that it's been allowed to just be the way things are. [01:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And the idea that this happens fairly often in hospitals is very jarring. The one, if you're sitting here now like, oh, great, I got to worry about this in hospitals. I mean, generally these are very targeted, is the thing. It's not usually the case that someone comes in and just, like, shoots up a lobby. Sometimes people get kind of caught up in the crossfire, get shrapnel or something like this. But usually there is someone they are targeting in these particular attacks. And it's terrible, obviously. I mean, it's not going to make you feel a whole lot better. But one of the ones that I had come across happened in Dallas. And one of the issues here is that it is very difficult to predict or stop these, even if you kind of see these things happening, even in the case of where they called that Code Gray instead of the Code Silver or whatever that is for an armed person. [01:43:10] Speaker B: Just a question. Why don't they just get on the intercoma show? Run. Everybody fucking run. There's a gun. [01:43:16] Speaker A: Probably because it's easier to say Code Gray, I imagine, and everyone knows what it means. You don't want the patients to go fucking crazy. You're trying to tell the people who work there, like, lock down your patients and things like that. What if all the patients are like healthcare? Run. Yeah, right. Everybody gets up and goes, not great. You don't want to cause a panic. So you use code. [01:43:38] Speaker B: What, do we shoot all the guns into space now? [01:43:41] Speaker A: There's an idea I can get behind, Mark. [01:43:43] Speaker B: That's your answer to everything, mate. [01:43:47] Speaker A: But yeah, one of the things about this is it's super difficult to stop something like this when it's happening. And like, a lot of times when these shootings happening afterwards, then they start implementing, oh, we're going to put more police in the hospital, or things like that, when often there's a cop standing right there. Or in fact, that was one of the statistics in that thing. Did you see a good chunk of the time the murder is committed with the security guard's gun that they managed to take off of the security guard? I can't remember what the let me see if I have the statistic right here. I don't know if I do, but yeah, that was oh, here we go. In 23% of shootings, the weapon was a security officer's gun taken by the perpetrator. [01:44:36] Speaker B: Well, more guns argument, doesn't it? [01:44:43] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, exactly. 23% of these shootings would not happen if a good guy with a gun was not present. Yeah, that's not great. A quarter of these wouldn't have happened. And so it's hard to stop. It's hard to know what to do. Certainly, I don't advocate for putting more cops into hospitals, especially since you know who would be targeted by those cops, realistically. But in one case in Dallas, at the Methodist Dallas Medical Center, a man named Nester Hernandez, who was 30, came in for the birth of his child. His girlfriend was pregnant and given birth, and already sort of people reported that he'd been acting weird since he came in there. Like people were noticing. He was really agitated. He came in and he started accusing his girlfriend of cheating on him. He started searching the closet and bathroom for somebody else who might have been in the room. So it sounds like he was, like, having some sort of episode that's not just simply like, oh, he genuinely thinks someone's cheating. There's something going on in his head that is happening here. So he sat on a couch in the room, and he said to his girlfriend, we're both going to die today, and whoever comes into this room is going to die with us. And a few moments later, one of the hospital employees came in, and he stood up and he shot and killed that employee. And then another one was in the hallway and heard the gunshot, came and looked in the room, saw the first victim on the floor, and of course rushed in, seeing the bleeding out person on the floor, and was also shot and killed. So then there was an officer right there when this happened who shot Hernandez in the leg, and he had been also hitting his girlfriend with the gun. He didn't shoot her, but he was hitting her with it. And so the child had been born, was in the room, was uninjured, but these two people were killed, and he was injured and arrested after this. He wasn't killed in this particular situation, but there was a cop right there. What was the response here? And that's kind of one of the things with these situations is it's like you don't know someone is they don't signal it to you. A lot of hospitals have put metal detectors in place, so when you come in in the first place, they can see what you have on you. But obviously, if they take the gun from a security guard, it's not going to be a whole lot of help. [01:47:32] Speaker B: No, certainly not. I mean, I can only talk about the gun issue in the states for a certain length of time before I become so exasperated by it. [01:47:44] Speaker A: Right. [01:47:46] Speaker B: Talk about kind of earlier on about having very deep set views on what is the right way to do things coming from a country with no guns or with super restricted gun access. It seems to work. I don't know. Yeah. I really can't go into it for long before my brain locks up at the fucking madness of the situation you have out there. [01:48:19] Speaker A: Right, yeah. It's a tricky one. And like we talked about a couple of years ago, when we kind of first had a conversation about this, it's a complicated one, even from someone like me who doesn't like guns, being an American, that I don't think that necessarily banning guns altogether is the right way to do it, simply because of the way that's implemented and who ends up vulnerable as a result of who gets their guns taken away and who doesn't in this country. I think obviously that goes back to sort of I think countries like ours that are built on revolution from countries like yours and things like that. It's harder for us to sort of be like, oh, yeah, things are just accomplished peacefully, and you just go about things and you yell at each other in Congress and everything's good, as opposed to having more of a mindset a little bit like France, where maybe you might need to fuck shit up, throw them all at somebody or whatever. [01:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Look, I get how just there's thread after thread of the psychology of your culture, right? And I want to thank you for kind of over the past three years laying it out for me in a way that I've really been able to grasp. There simply is no quick fucking answer to it. [01:49:48] Speaker A: Right? You can't just be like, all right, well, it's against the law now. [01:49:53] Speaker B: But what seems to be happening instead. [01:49:55] Speaker A: Is, right, like, that's the real problem is just complete gridlock on it because it's how do you get past those things? Especially when you have a Supreme Court full of constitutional originalists who think as it's written is how it has to be and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it's a country with millions and millions and millions more guns than there are people. It is very difficult to try to put the lid back on that. [01:50:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Shootings are by no means the only fucking thing to no. [01:50:38] Speaker A: Yeah, some things can be less nefarious, let's say, but still terrifying. And the thing everyone knows that I mentioned earlier, even that I'm terrified of, is fire. It's been my nightmare my entire life. And what's super cool is fires in healthcare settings are a lot more common than I like to think for my peace of mind. In fact, according to the Occupational Health and Safety Blog, hospitals are among the most common places for fire to occur. And the National Fire protection association says that fully 9% of all fires reported in the United States are hospitals. [01:51:19] Speaker B: Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. How much? [01:51:21] Speaker A: 9%. That's nearly one in ten fires is in a hospital. [01:51:26] Speaker B: That's vast. [01:51:27] Speaker A: What? That is an insane amount of fires in hospitals. [01:51:33] Speaker B: Let's take our second trip to 1929 of the week. [01:51:38] Speaker A: Can I just before you do that, just quickly run down why this happens and then you go ahead. Just quickly I just want to tell you what the reasons for this number being so high are. So, causes of hospital fires, electrical equipment, lots of that in a hospital. Kitchen facilities, obviously, every hospital has a kitchen, so I get that. Lots of stuff to be burning, then. Cigarettes is a huge one of them specialized. Oh, go ahead. [01:52:11] Speaker B: One of the things that's so dispiriting it actually makes me chuckle. Right. One of the things which is such a dark and fucking horrible sight to see but for some reason I just react to it with a giggle is whenever I'm visiting a hospital or I remember it particularly when Laura and I were having our first kid, when we were having Peter and we would go in for classes and whatnot. And there's always a fucking group of people outside the hospital. Smoking man. Yes, always people in wheelchairs with a fucking cigarette on. Of course, going down there for pregnancy related issues, you sometimes would see the double banger of somebody pregnant and smoking outside of a hospital. That's a fucking ding ding bonus. [01:52:59] Speaker A: Yeah. If you can't even put it away at the place where you're going to be most judged for it, that's a big problem. So also specialized medical equipment, because a lot of those have high powered energy output. Lasers and things like that in them. Hand sanitizers amongst the things. Yeah, they're highly flammable. So several hospital fires have been caused by improper storage or use of hand sanitizer. It's cool. Gas cylinders and medical oxygen are amongst things that cause a lot of stuff. Anesthesia machines, which I don't like to think about being flammable. I'm already super uneasy about anesthesia, so don't love that. Extension cord. Daisy chains. Just like in our house, doctors do the same. Fucking shit plug, plugging up way too many things. [01:53:53] Speaker B: And also you've got shit plugs out there. [01:53:56] Speaker A: We do, yes. [01:53:58] Speaker B: You really do. You've got third world plugs. Just two prongs, plug them in, plum out. No safety at all. [01:54:05] Speaker A: Not entirely. Most of our plugs, if they were made in the last 40 years, are three prong. [01:54:11] Speaker B: Okay. [01:54:12] Speaker A: Ancient house like mine. Yes, two prong all over the place. So, yeah, not great. Don't want to be daisy chaining. Those. Inadequate fire training, of course. Storage of combustible materials, well, faulty or poorly maintained fire safety systems and heating equipment. Those are our top causes. That make it so 9% of fires in the US are happening in hospitals. [01:54:41] Speaker B: Lots to worry about there. [01:54:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:54:43] Speaker B: Tons picking up on storage of combustible materials. Right? [01:54:48] Speaker A: Sure. [01:54:49] Speaker B: Back to 1929, May the 15th. Right. In Cleveland. A hospital in Cleveland called the Cleveland Clinic, which is, by all accounts, a fantastic hospital. It's often getting ranked as in the top five hospitals in the entire country in the US. So on May 15, 1929, it was busy, lots of maintenance staff, doctors, nurses, patients, administration staff. And on that particular day, a room in the basement had developed a leak, a steam leak. Right. A pipe was heating, or what had began a leak. They had a repairman in that morning at 09:00, a.m. Stripping off insulation from a pipe. He then left the room to turn off the steam so that the pipe would cool so that he can work on it. Sure. He didn't come back until 11:00 to see mayhem. Because you see that room? That room was where they stored the x ray archive. Okay, okay. X ray archive, which was printed on celluloid or nitrocellulose film. Right? [01:55:56] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [01:55:57] Speaker B: And there was a fuck ton of it. We're talking at minimum, the minimum estimate was that there were 4200 pounds of celluloid in that room. Right. [01:56:08] Speaker A: Okay. [01:56:09] Speaker B: Couple of quick facts about celluloid. It's flammable as fuck, right? [01:56:15] Speaker A: Great. [01:56:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And when it burns, not only does it continue burning when wet oh, wow. Celluloid will continue to burn underwater, believe it or not. [01:56:27] Speaker A: Wow. [01:56:28] Speaker B: And it also releases super fucking toxic gas when it burns. We are talking carbon monoxide, nitric oxide, methyl chloride, phosphine, which is the stuff that escaped after that chemical plant fuck up in India. [01:56:45] Speaker A: Bopal. [01:56:47] Speaker B: So the geezer comes back at 11:00 to find a fucking huge miasma of death in this room, right. A poison cloud of burning celluloid in this room. There was then an explosion, which occurred when he was trying to put this out with a fire extinguisher, which threw him cleaner on the room and started to pump this fucking gas around the hospital. Right. It went through ventilation shaft, it went through plumbing, and absolutely unintentionally Batmaned the place. Yeah. 100% and the fucking death toll, man. Victims are suffocating super quickly, their faces turning like yellow and brown from the fucking horrific gas. Nobody fucking knew how to put this fire out. They were just dumping water on it, which generated more smoke. There were two more huge explosions which gutted the fucking hospital and pushed this gas. 123 dead. [01:57:43] Speaker A: Wow. [01:57:43] Speaker B: 123 dead. 92 other major injuries. Many of the dead were found in stairwells as they were trying to make their escape, right? [01:57:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:57:56] Speaker B: And they never quite zeroed in on what the cause was. Was it inadvertent kind of contact with a light bulb? Was it a rogue cigarette? Was it the, you know, contact with steam from the broken steam pipe? But yeah, kill 123 people, man, due to burning fucking pounds, thousands of pounds of burning celluloid. [01:58:20] Speaker A: I don't like it, Mark. [01:58:21] Speaker B: No. You shouldn't. There's nothing there to like very little there to get invested in, is there? [01:58:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, I was know, kind of thumbing through various articles and stuff like that and amongst like the idea there was one that happened in I think it was Michigan, I want to say, but it was like literally like someone smoking with their oxygen tank. [01:58:49] Speaker B: For fuck's sake. Yes. That's the best one. That's the best one. If you've got to take a gas mask off to have a drag on you. [01:58:57] Speaker A: Yeah. The fire may have been sparked as a result of a patient attempting to light a cigarette while on oxygen. And it caused a fire that injured only, thankfully, five of the employees of that hospital. But it's the idea not only of something like I don't know that are x rays still printed on the same thing now? [01:59:23] Speaker B: They're still printed on like an acetate kind of material, but it's been refined ever since. It's not right. I'm sure they store it differently. One day I hope to see a pregnant woman with a gas tank smoking a cigarette. [01:59:37] Speaker A: Right. [01:59:38] Speaker B: That's the best. [01:59:39] Speaker A: Maybe a cocktail on top of it. [01:59:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Nice. [01:59:41] Speaker A: Really drive it home. But yeah. How just dumb. Some of this stuff is like smoking a cigarette with your oxygen thing or just storing something wrong. These very simple I think that's the thing is probably all of us have like daisy chain to plug or something when we shouldn't. [02:00:02] Speaker B: The room I'm in right now has got plugs on plugs in plugs. [02:00:07] Speaker A: The nice thing is our terrible electric in this house that needs to be redone makes it so that I'm very careful not to do that. One day there was a plug with nothing in it and I put my foot against it and it electrocuted me. And I was like, oh man, that's not great. [02:00:24] Speaker B: A couple of times on the cast I've said, how physical memory of pain is strange. You can't recall the sensation of pain. [02:00:33] Speaker A: By yeah, you always say that. And I don't know why you think that. [02:00:36] Speaker B: Well, maybe it's just me, I don't know. But the one exception for me is I electrocuted myself quite badly once by I was trying to unplug an amp and the back of the plug came away in my hand, exposing the wires. And I didn't really think it through. And I just grabbed the wires and tried to pull those out and it fucking electrocuted the shit out of me and my hand got stuck. It was fucking horrible. And thinking about that actually causes me to go into goosebumps. It's happening right now and I can physically recall the sensation. It was horrible. [02:01:12] Speaker A: I feel like this has to be like a topic in and of itself because you have said this several times that you're always like, oh, pain is not a thing that you can remember make a memory of or whatever. I believe that you can't, but everything is that, if you think of it that way. If I have a smell memory, technically, I can't smell it. I don't have a mind's eye. I don't see something when I remember something. You can't remember anything in a literal sense. Everything is a sensation in one way or another. So there's no reason to think you can't recall a sense. Everything is that. [02:01:50] Speaker B: Yes, I completely agree. [02:01:54] Speaker A: I don't know. I think that's an interesting thought, though. It's got to be something like the fact that you always say that just makes me think about how do we understand memory in a somatic sense, in a body sense? I don't know. That there's things that we think make sense to remember or whatever, and others that somehow we don't think the same way about. I don't know. I think that's interesting. [02:02:24] Speaker B: Yes. One to talk about offline, I think. [02:02:26] Speaker A: One to think of at some point. Maybe that's a question for Eileen. And for the record, Eileen, you also have a request coming to come back for a big topic for our dear friend Sam as well. So just know you'll be here soon. [02:02:42] Speaker B: I can't wait to have another Boffin episode because I love them. They're one of my favorites. [02:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah, Boffin episodes are amazing. [02:02:50] Speaker B: Listen, let's just end on a positive note here, right? [02:02:52] Speaker A: Oh, sure. [02:02:53] Speaker B: Probably. You probably won't get shot or burned to death in hospital. You'll probably get better. [02:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. [02:03:02] Speaker B: There you go. [02:03:03] Speaker A: See, at least, I must say, anyone listening to this podcast, you're going to get better if you end up in the hospital. [02:03:09] Speaker B: Yes. [02:03:10] Speaker A: And not shot naming it and claiming it beautiful, nobody will shoot you. That'll be great. Maybe. I think that we probably have at least one more hospital horror in us, but we'll convene about this and figure out whether we continue our series or that. But if you have a subject of hospital horror that we haven't broached yet, honestly, we haven't talked about murderous doctors and things like that yet. We broached nurses and that kind of angel of death thing, but we haven't actually discussed murders by your doctors and stuff like that. [02:03:49] Speaker B: I definitely feel we've got another one of these in the tank. [02:03:51] Speaker A: Yeah, we've definitely got at least one more hospital horror in the tank. So, yeah, give us your feedback on that and whatnot and any other random questions we have asked throughout this. People need to take notes on this to remember what they have, all the questions we asked them throughout the episodes. But if there is something that was brought up and you have thoughts, feelings, concerns, questions and so forth, please do hit us up. We're on [email protected]. We are at Facebook jackovallgraves. Instagram jackofallgraves all those places. We love to hear from you. Thanks again to the Emo Dragon and all of our other Ko Fi supporters. We are so pleased for you. Look out for our new stuff coming out this week, including Mark's reading. Join us on Saturday for our watch along, which should be a grand old time. If you have any suggestions for return movies, do let us know. Anything else, dearest Marco, just stay well. [02:04:55] Speaker B: Stay happy and stay spooky.